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Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:24:00 - [1] I've played EVE for around 8 months now, and it's been my perception that mining isn't on par with ratting for the ISK/hr generation, and the "value" you get out of the skills. I realize that a major part of EVE is combat against other players, but behind every war requires another army of producers, miners, and logistics to provide those ships and supplies. Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. That is to say that its a good chunk of skills required to become a good miner, but the trees have far more depth for someone going into the combat route. To top it off, a mining battleship with good drone skills can still be a very adequate mining ship, yet still maintain good defenses and be able to switch equipment and go out to PvP/Ratting on a moments notice. While all mining barges except for the Hulk are sitting ducks, and even a Hulk pops quickly with some NOS on it. Speaking with major ratters in my corp, they talk of around 30mil/hr+ made in ratting with battleships. And then you have things like them making a windfall on rare modules or convoy spawns. Meanwhile a miner has a static possible yield that never changes. Ratters also have the freedom of killing within a wide area, but a miner is stuck to refinery systems or adjacent, otherwise the logistics behind the extremely bulky ore becomes too great. Most of the full-time miners also tend to have an alt for defense/hauling just so they can maintain the same ISK or less of a ratter. Well, I have more that I want to say, but I will cut it off at that for now to see what people think. Even though I know what the hardcore ratters will already say ;)
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:26:00 - [2] Originally by: Shinon Asahina I've played EVE for around 8 months now, and it's been my perception that mining isn't on par with ratting for the ISK/hr generation, and the "value" you get out of the skills. I realize that a major part of EVE is combat against other players, but behind every war requires another army of producers, miners, and logistics to provide those ships and supplies. Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. That is to say that its a good chunk of skills required to become a good miner, but the trees have far more depth for someone going into the combat route. To top it off, a mining battleship with good drone skills can still be a very adequate mining ship, yet still maintain good defenses and be able to switch equipment and go out to PvP/Ratting on a moments notice. While all mining barges except for the Hulk are sitting ducks, and even a Hulk pops quickly with some NOS on it. Speaking with major ratters in my corp, they talk of around 30mil/hr+ made in ratting with battleships. And then you have things like them making a windfall on rare modules or convoy spawns. Meanwhile a miner has a static possible yield that never changes. Ratters also have the freedom of killing within a wide area, but a miner is stuck to refinery systems or adjacent, otherwise the logistics behind the extremely bulky ore becomes too great. Most of the full-time miners also tend to have an alt for defense/hauling just so they can maintain the same ISK or less of a ratter. Well, I have more that I want to say, but I will cut it off at that for now to see what people think. Even though I know what the hardcore ratters will already say ;) All comes down to risk, if i go into a fight with a Faction fitted BS , I stand to loose alot, a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:27:00 - [3] Originally by: Shinon Asahina I've played EVE for around 8 months now, and it's been my perception that mining isn't on par with ratting for the ISK/hr generation, and the "value" you get out of the skills. I realize that a major part of EVE is combat against other players, but behind every war requires another army of producers, miners, and logistics to provide those ships and supplies. Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. That is to say that its a good chunk of skills required to become a good miner, but the trees have far more depth for someone going into the combat route. To top it off, a mining battleship with good drone skills can still be a very adequate mining ship, yet still maintain good defenses and be able to switch equipment and go out to PvP/Ratting on a moments notice. While all mining barges except for the Hulk are sitting ducks, and even a Hulk pops quickly with some NOS on it. Speaking with major ratters in my corp, they talk of around 30mil/hr+ made in ratting with battleships. And then you have things like them making a windfall on rare modules or convoy spawns. Meanwhile a miner has a static possible yield that never changes. Ratters also have the freedom of killing within a wide area, but a miner is stuck to refinery systems or adjacent, otherwise the logistics behind the extremely bulky ore becomes too great. Most of the full-time miners also tend to have an alt for defense/hauling just so they can maintain the same ISK or less of a ratter. Well, I have more that I want to say, but I will cut it off at that for now to see what people think. Even though I know what the hardcore ratters will already say ;) I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Charsa Devon	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:32:00 - [4] It's hard to say that mining is better then ratting for excitement. That doesn't mean it is without merit. The truth is the first time I started playing this game I drifted into mining because it was pastoral and relaxing. Also it had the benefit of yielding steady ISK. I found that when I combined mining with industry I was making ISK and following goals just as much as when I was trying to grind up though the combat ships and combat modules. I would say that a pure miner is a second class character type, but being a miner leads to multitasking quite well.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. Yes its true that a Hulk pulls in around 30mil/hr in ore, but that is only if it doesn't have to haul that ore back itself. And as I said before -- pirates are going to know exactly what systems the miners are going to always be in, and they also have to sit in the same belt for hours. The ratters can go far off the beaten path to rat if they like, and they also are changing belts frequently, which can also help them in case pirates are coming in and trying to scan them down. Also, the ratters gets to keep improving their skills and move on to even better ships. The only mining ship worth a damn is the Hulk bc it actually has resists, and if you spend a fortune in faction mods you can tank fairly well. But it gets pretty dicey sitting there in a 1.5bil barge wondering if pirates will enter the system... If only specialized processing skills allowed you to exceed the 75% refining yield at POS's then it would be a slightly different story. Because at least you could set yourself up far from main routes. We can only hope that the fabled ORE Capital ship allows 100% refining if it ever comes. I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm dismayed that a Rokh can mine at like 80% of a Covetor, but don't have to worry about getting blown up before they can warp out from a rat spawn or pirates. You would think dedicated miners that spend like 4 months+ going down the mining tree would be a significant amount better at mining than people training primarily for combat skills. Then theres worrying about the logistics of hauling it out, or having to pay someone a large chunk of the ore to haul it for you. And people keeping the belt clear of rats for you, etc.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Charsa Devon It's hard to say that mining is better then ratting for excitement. That doesn't mean it is without merit. The truth is the first time I started playing this game I drifted into mining because it was pastoral and relaxing. Also it had the benefit of yielding steady ISK. I found that when I combined mining with industry I was making ISK and following goals just as much as when I was trying to grind up though the combat ships and combat modules. I would say that a pure miner is a second class character type, but being a miner leads to multitasking quite well. The problem with that is that mining skills are completely worthless to doing anything other than mining and production. And maxing production is only the 1 skill of Production Effeciency. You can mine on the side in a battleship, and still be able to fly many different ships. Imagine if you had to haul for 10-15mins out of every hour when ratting like you do with mining?
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:43:00 - [7] The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:43:00 - [8] The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:46:00 - [9] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Yes that was supposed to be one of my major points, and then I forgot to specifically say that :)
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:46:00 - [10] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Yes that was supposed to be one of my major points, and then I forgot to specifically say that :)

Crimson Tides	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Crimson Tides on 15/03/2007 10:44:53 I've found that when ratting, especially the meatier BS spawns in 0.0 you are usually competing with more people over less things to kill then a miner competing with other miners over the mass amount of asteroids. Yeah sure it takes a team to be more efficient, but you can pull a good amount of isk working with some miners and some haulers. On a side note ratting is more luck of the draw when it comes to what you find. You can make a ton of money if you find a faction spawn, but it is rare. There are roids everywhere, and the income is steady P.S. if you mine in a group often only one person needs good refining skills
Crimson Tides	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:48:00 - [12] Edited by: Crimson Tides on 15/03/2007 10:44:53 I've found that when ratting, especially the meatier BS spawns in 0.0 you are usually competing with more people over less things to kill then a miner competing with other miners over the mass amount of asteroids. Yeah sure it takes a team to be more efficient, but you can pull a good amount of isk working with some miners and some haulers. On a side note ratting is more luck of the draw when it comes to what you find. You can make a ton of money if you find a faction spawn, but it is rare. There are roids everywhere, and the income is steady P.S. if you mine in a group often only one person needs good refining skills
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:51:00 - [13] This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. "Another day, another million ISK"
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:51:00 - [14] This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. "Another day, another million ISK"
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:53:00 - [15] Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/03/2007 10:50:51 The short and obvious answer is yes. CCP has always placed a higher importance on combat content than industry content... That's why the industry content is so messed up in this game, lack of effort... (T2 lottery, jet can mining with a poor GSC solution, etc) Let's just say a giant secure container solution to combat content would not have lasted one month in this game b4 the DEV's fixed it... Nuff said... They really need a dedicated team of DEV's for the industry side of the game. If they currently have a team like that, they suck... Building the homestead
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:53:00 - [16] Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/03/2007 10:50:51 The short and obvious answer is yes. CCP has always placed a higher importance on combat content than industry content... That's why the industry content is so messed up in this game, lack of effort... (T2 lottery, jet can mining with a poor GSC solution, etc) Let's just say a giant secure container solution to combat content would not have lasted one month in this game b4 the DEV's fixed it... Nuff said... They really need a dedicated team of DEV's for the industry side of the game. If they currently have a team like that, they suck... Building the homestead
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:01:00 - [17] Edited by: Shinon Asahina on 15/03/2007 11:03:10 Originally by: Vayron This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. If I were to sell my Mega/Zyd in 0.0 then the 30mil/hr would plummet to around 20mil/hr in a Hulk. Even if we were to do producing, the market on stuff gets flooded quickly, and we are still beholden to ratters for things like Tritanium that are basically exclusively from hauler spawns. (Not even accounting for trying to acquire BPOs and research them, which as everyone knows the T2 system still blows chunks) Then we have the whole can of beans that to mine really well you need a T2 ship that costs close to 600mil now -- min module outfits places you around 700-750mil. Ideal setup is close to 1.5bil. You can be an excellent ratter in a Raven that only costs around 300mil fitted very well, or around 200mil for a less beefy setup.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:01:00 - [18] Edited by: Shinon Asahina on 15/03/2007 11:03:10 Originally by: Vayron This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. If I were to sell my Mega/Zyd in 0.0 then the 30mil/hr would plummet to around 20mil/hr in a Hulk. Even if we were to do producing, the market on stuff gets flooded quickly, and we are still beholden to ratters for things like Tritanium that are basically exclusively from hauler spawns. (Not even accounting for trying to acquire BPOs and research them, which as everyone knows the T2 system still blows chunks) Then we have the whole can of beans that to mine really well you need a T2 ship that costs close to 600mil now -- min module outfits places you around 700-750mil. Ideal setup is close to 1.5bil. You can be an excellent ratter in a Raven that only costs around 300mil fitted very well, or around 200mil for a less beefy setup.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Kassidus Originally by: Shinon Asahina All comes down to risk, if i go into a fight with a Faction fitted BS , I stand to loose alot, a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money. how come you think miners stick to high-sec systems ? and how is mission running involving any risk ? you can just have a quick peak on eveinfo.com for any givin mission telling you excactly what npcs youll face and how many of them. it even tells you all the damage outputs and stuff. you know exactly what youll face, before you face it. a miner doesnt know which ncp spawns will spawn in a given belt. it may be small spawn or it may be a big one. leaving alone the risk of loosing ~1b isk for a well fitted hulk due to pirate ganks.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Kassidus Originally by: Shinon Asahina All comes down to risk, if i go into a fight with a Faction fitted BS , I stand to loose alot, a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money. how come you think miners stick to high-sec systems ? and how is mission running involving any risk ? you can just have a quick peak on eveinfo.com for any givin mission telling you excactly what npcs youll face and how many of them. it even tells you all the damage outputs and stuff. you know exactly what youll face, before you face it. a miner doesnt know which ncp spawns will spawn in a given belt. it may be small spawn or it may be a big one. leaving alone the risk of loosing ~1b isk for a well fitted hulk due to pirate ganks.

Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Shinon Asahina Edited by: Shinon Asahina on 15/03/2007 11:03:10 Originally by: Vayron This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. If I were to sell my Mega/Zyd in 0.0 then the 30mil/hr would plummet to around 20mil/hr in a Hulk. Even if we were to do producing, the market on stuff gets flooded quickly, and we are still beholden to ratters for things like Tritanium that are basically exclusively from hauler spawns. (Not even accounting for trying to acquire BPOs and research them, which as everyone knows the T2 system still blows chunks) Then we have the whole can of beans that to mine really well you need a T2 ship that costs close to 600mil now -- min module outfits places you around 700-750mil. Ideal setup is close to 1.5bil. You can be an excellent ratter in a Raven that only costs around 300mil fitted very well, or around 200mil for a less beefy setup. A covetor mines about 15% less than a hulk, and the only good reasons I know for someone mining in a hulk are 1. He's rich and doesnt care spending said 800mil 2. He wants to mine solo in 0.0. Get a group of 2+ people going where 1 is tanking a spawn in a BS and you dont need a hulk, spend 30mil on a covetor + fittings taking 15% less mining yield... As someone who npc in 0.0 for isk , ratting definetly is not more profitable than mining, since you cant count faction spawns in, who often enough give you a tag and 1000 rounds of gurista ammo. Actually, before the mineral prices dropped, you made about 80-100mil in a hulk mining, thats like 80mil more than an npcer does in 0.0, that wasnt fair either. Nows its just closer together.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:39:00 - [22] And how are you going to get the ratter to just sit there tanking the spawn indefinitely? Exactly. By paying them at least equal to what they would make solo ratting. Which means you drop your 30mil/hr to 20mil immediately ... not even factoring in hauling then again. And yes, the Hulk is sadly not a ton better than the Covetor. Which is even more of an insult as far as skills go then. But the screwed up way the skill requirements are for Exhumers, if you can fly a Covetor then you half all or nearly all the requirements to train Exhumers anyways.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:51:00 - [23] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Well you can use it to reprocess 'low value loot' more effectively into its mineral components. Which makes ratting more valuable (ie the value of a 'civilian shield booster' is worth more trit to a miner than to a ratter....
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Well you can use it to reprocess 'low value loot' more effectively into its mineral components. Which makes ratting more valuable (ie the value of a 'civilian shield booster' is worth more trit to a miner than to a ratter.... Funnily enough, a producer will make more off that then a miner since they're more likely to have metallurgy 5 trained. And as you just conveniently said - the skillset somewhat allows you to segue into ratting. But why not just start ratting and probably make a hell of a lot more money, more easily and then train the refining skills? The issue is, the skill set is just too high for something which only ever works well if you have a huge amount of combat support behind you (0.0 territory, defense, fear-of-god etc.) Finally, where does low-value loot come from? Ratting. In a game with a massive PVP focus, all paths need to some tangible ability to fight on some level.
Frances Ducoir Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:08:00 - [25] I endorse the ops opinion. If mining would have more variety it would be more fun but it's plain boring. things i would like: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for rigs which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that - mining capital ship - make some of the 0.0 ores spawn in lowsec (afaik there is mainly jaspet which has a bad risk/reward rate) - more mining vessels which are more specialised regarding the ore types - as said above, rigs for miners - DRONE mining barges which have boni for mining drones and can compete with normal barges. (and in conclusion to this maybe t2 or faction mining drones with much more than 25 ore / cycle) - maybe something else which could make mining more unpredictable and fun... feel free to think of, i have stated all which came in my mind for now
Taizu Lilith Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:09:00 - [26] The problem is the NPC Bounties. You don't even loot or salvage most the time while ratting. If you had to loot/salvage the ISK/hr would go down a lot, additionally, inflation would be lower. As far as skills, yes, ratting/missioning and PvP has overlap, but also has a lot more skill points. This means that miners have an easier time branching out into trade or industry or research. Actually, a pure PvPer and Mission runner will have adifferent skills to because of social skills. Fix NPC bounties would fix a lot of things in the game.
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Shinon Asahina The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. But this is still controlled by the players. You have not offered a solution to the problem, only complained that it exists. You have not stated how it is even controlled by CCP. The only thing I see controlled by CCP is the NPC rat values. The individual loots aren't even controlled by CCP since that is once again player driven pricing. I'm not disputing the disparity between the two professions. "Another day, another million ISK"
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:17:00 - [28] Edited by: James Duar on 15/03/2007 12:14:46 Originally by: Taizu Lilith The problem is the NPC Bounties. You don't even loot or salvage most the time while ratting. If you had to loot/salvage the ISK/hr would go down a lot, additionally, inflation would be lower. As far as skills, yes, ratting/missioning and PvP has overlap, but also has a lot more skill points. This means that miners have an easier time branching out into trade or industry or research. Actually, a pure PvPer and Mission runner will have adifferent skills to because of social skills. Fix NPC bounties would fix a lot of things in the game. I'm sorry but, what? Assume for a moment that most miners try to mine for ISK to PVP and you start to see where they're coming from. Your ISK/hr caps out pretty quickly. The whole field just sort of dies and suffers serious diminishing returns for trying to get better stuff. Now, that said, I think done right the ORE capital ship could help this situation a lot. If we got a ship which had the mining output potential of an Exhumer, but with a vast cargo bay, then most miners would be very happy since it really would be something to shoot for - the ability to roam like ratters and mine away from station systems. Massive ISK potential? You bet - a reasonable reward for the substantial moves away from PVP skills you make for following down the mining pathway. EDIT: Veyron - the complaint is the amount of specialization you invest compared to the return, compared to being able to make with the pew pew and make about the same money for far less the initial ISK outlay.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:18:00 - [29] It used to be possible to mine get 50-67M /h by mining crokite with one character, the excact amount depending on skills. On top of that you had to haul, refine, etc etc however. Now, the prices have halved, and you are lucky to get even that 30M/h. Hence, It just is not worth it. Unless you are producing just for yourself and friends. It's easier to get ISK by ratting, plex/mission running or empire pirating. Exploration is a bit more risky, since there are possibilities of getting eq worth 1-1.5B ISK, but they are rare... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:24:00 - [30] Keep in mind that NPC bounties are taxable by your corporation. Miners get a bit of a tax break in that area. I do see the "skip loot" for profit going on. I can get more missions, more bounties and more mission rewards in an hour by not looting. Now if my Battle Cruiser was as fast as a Frigate I would stop to loot much more often. More cargo space on miners I see as a good thing, but also opens some potential for more AFK miners and macro miners. I doubt I could set up a macro for mission running, but I haven't tried. :) "Another day, another million ISK"



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