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Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:24:00 - [1] I've played EVE for around 8 months now, and it's been my perception that mining isn't on par with ratting for the ISK/hr generation, and the "value" you get out of the skills. I realize that a major part of EVE is combat against other players, but behind every war requires another army of producers, miners, and logistics to provide those ships and supplies. Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. That is to say that its a good chunk of skills required to become a good miner, but the trees have far more depth for someone going into the combat route. To top it off, a mining battleship with good drone skills can still be a very adequate mining ship, yet still maintain good defenses and be able to switch equipment and go out to PvP/Ratting on a moments notice. While all mining barges except for the Hulk are sitting ducks, and even a Hulk pops quickly with some NOS on it. Speaking with major ratters in my corp, they talk of around 30mil/hr+ made in ratting with battleships. And then you have things like them making a windfall on rare modules or convoy spawns. Meanwhile a miner has a static possible yield that never changes. Ratters also have the freedom of killing within a wide area, but a miner is stuck to refinery systems or adjacent, otherwise the logistics behind the extremely bulky ore becomes too great. Most of the full-time miners also tend to have an alt for defense/hauling just so they can maintain the same ISK or less of a ratter. Well, I have more that I want to say, but I will cut it off at that for now to see what people think. Even though I know what the hardcore ratters will already say ;)
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:26:00 - [2] Originally by: Shinon Asahina I've played EVE for around 8 months now, and it's been my perception that mining isn't on par with ratting for the ISK/hr generation, and the "value" you get out of the skills. I realize that a major part of EVE is combat against other players, but behind every war requires another army of producers, miners, and logistics to provide those ships and supplies. Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. That is to say that its a good chunk of skills required to become a good miner, but the trees have far more depth for someone going into the combat route. To top it off, a mining battleship with good drone skills can still be a very adequate mining ship, yet still maintain good defenses and be able to switch equipment and go out to PvP/Ratting on a moments notice. While all mining barges except for the Hulk are sitting ducks, and even a Hulk pops quickly with some NOS on it. Speaking with major ratters in my corp, they talk of around 30mil/hr+ made in ratting with battleships. And then you have things like them making a windfall on rare modules or convoy spawns. Meanwhile a miner has a static possible yield that never changes. Ratters also have the freedom of killing within a wide area, but a miner is stuck to refinery systems or adjacent, otherwise the logistics behind the extremely bulky ore becomes too great. Most of the full-time miners also tend to have an alt for defense/hauling just so they can maintain the same ISK or less of a ratter. Well, I have more that I want to say, but I will cut it off at that for now to see what people think. Even though I know what the hardcore ratters will already say ;) All comes down to risk, if i go into a fight with a Faction fitted BS , I stand to loose alot, a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:27:00 - [3] Originally by: Shinon Asahina I've played EVE for around 8 months now, and it's been my perception that mining isn't on par with ratting for the ISK/hr generation, and the "value" you get out of the skills. I realize that a major part of EVE is combat against other players, but behind every war requires another army of producers, miners, and logistics to provide those ships and supplies. Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. That is to say that its a good chunk of skills required to become a good miner, but the trees have far more depth for someone going into the combat route. To top it off, a mining battleship with good drone skills can still be a very adequate mining ship, yet still maintain good defenses and be able to switch equipment and go out to PvP/Ratting on a moments notice. While all mining barges except for the Hulk are sitting ducks, and even a Hulk pops quickly with some NOS on it. Speaking with major ratters in my corp, they talk of around 30mil/hr+ made in ratting with battleships. And then you have things like them making a windfall on rare modules or convoy spawns. Meanwhile a miner has a static possible yield that never changes. Ratters also have the freedom of killing within a wide area, but a miner is stuck to refinery systems or adjacent, otherwise the logistics behind the extremely bulky ore becomes too great. Most of the full-time miners also tend to have an alt for defense/hauling just so they can maintain the same ISK or less of a ratter. Well, I have more that I want to say, but I will cut it off at that for now to see what people think. Even though I know what the hardcore ratters will already say ;) I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Charsa Devon	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:32:00 - [4] It's hard to say that mining is better then ratting for excitement. That doesn't mean it is without merit. The truth is the first time I started playing this game I drifted into mining because it was pastoral and relaxing. Also it had the benefit of yielding steady ISK. I found that when I combined mining with industry I was making ISK and following goals just as much as when I was trying to grind up though the combat ships and combat modules. I would say that a pure miner is a second class character type, but being a miner leads to multitasking quite well.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. Yes its true that a Hulk pulls in around 30mil/hr in ore, but that is only if it doesn't have to haul that ore back itself. And as I said before -- pirates are going to know exactly what systems the miners are going to always be in, and they also have to sit in the same belt for hours. The ratters can go far off the beaten path to rat if they like, and they also are changing belts frequently, which can also help them in case pirates are coming in and trying to scan them down. Also, the ratters gets to keep improving their skills and move on to even better ships. The only mining ship worth a damn is the Hulk bc it actually has resists, and if you spend a fortune in faction mods you can tank fairly well. But it gets pretty dicey sitting there in a 1.5bil barge wondering if pirates will enter the system... If only specialized processing skills allowed you to exceed the 75% refining yield at POS's then it would be a slightly different story. Because at least you could set yourself up far from main routes. We can only hope that the fabled ORE Capital ship allows 100% refining if it ever comes. I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm dismayed that a Rokh can mine at like 80% of a Covetor, but don't have to worry about getting blown up before they can warp out from a rat spawn or pirates. You would think dedicated miners that spend like 4 months+ going down the mining tree would be a significant amount better at mining than people training primarily for combat skills. Then theres worrying about the logistics of hauling it out, or having to pay someone a large chunk of the ore to haul it for you. And people keeping the belt clear of rats for you, etc.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:41:00 - [6] Originally by: Charsa Devon It's hard to say that mining is better then ratting for excitement. That doesn't mean it is without merit. The truth is the first time I started playing this game I drifted into mining because it was pastoral and relaxing. Also it had the benefit of yielding steady ISK. I found that when I combined mining with industry I was making ISK and following goals just as much as when I was trying to grind up though the combat ships and combat modules. I would say that a pure miner is a second class character type, but being a miner leads to multitasking quite well. The problem with that is that mining skills are completely worthless to doing anything other than mining and production. And maxing production is only the 1 skill of Production Effeciency. You can mine on the side in a battleship, and still be able to fly many different ships. Imagine if you had to haul for 10-15mins out of every hour when ratting like you do with mining?
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:43:00 - [7] The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:43:00 - [8] The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:46:00 - [9] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Yes that was supposed to be one of my major points, and then I forgot to specifically say that :)
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:46:00 - [10] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Yes that was supposed to be one of my major points, and then I forgot to specifically say that :)
Crimson Tides	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Crimson Tides on 15/03/2007 10:44:53 I've found that when ratting, especially the meatier BS spawns in 0.0 you are usually competing with more people over less things to kill then a miner competing with other miners over the mass amount of asteroids. Yeah sure it takes a team to be more efficient, but you can pull a good amount of isk working with some miners and some haulers. On a side note ratting is more luck of the draw when it comes to what you find. You can make a ton of money if you find a faction spawn, but it is rare. There are roids everywhere, and the income is steady P.S. if you mine in a group often only one person needs good refining skills
Crimson Tides	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:48:00 - [12] Edited by: Crimson Tides on 15/03/2007 10:44:53 I've found that when ratting, especially the meatier BS spawns in 0.0 you are usually competing with more people over less things to kill then a miner competing with other miners over the mass amount of asteroids. Yeah sure it takes a team to be more efficient, but you can pull a good amount of isk working with some miners and some haulers. On a side note ratting is more luck of the draw when it comes to what you find. You can make a ton of money if you find a faction spawn, but it is rare. There are roids everywhere, and the income is steady P.S. if you mine in a group often only one person needs good refining skills
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:51:00 - [13] This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. "Another day, another million ISK"
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:51:00 - [14] This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. "Another day, another million ISK"
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:53:00 - [15] Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/03/2007 10:50:51 The short and obvious answer is yes. CCP has always placed a higher importance on combat content than industry content... That's why the industry content is so messed up in this game, lack of effort... (T2 lottery, jet can mining with a poor GSC solution, etc) Let's just say a giant secure container solution to combat content would not have lasted one month in this game b4 the DEV's fixed it... Nuff said... They really need a dedicated team of DEV's for the industry side of the game. If they currently have a team like that, they suck... Building the homestead
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.03.15 10:53:00 - [16] Edited by: DarkMatter on 15/03/2007 10:50:51 The short and obvious answer is yes. CCP has always placed a higher importance on combat content than industry content... That's why the industry content is so messed up in this game, lack of effort... (T2 lottery, jet can mining with a poor GSC solution, etc) Let's just say a giant secure container solution to combat content would not have lasted one month in this game b4 the DEV's fixed it... Nuff said... They really need a dedicated team of DEV's for the industry side of the game. If they currently have a team like that, they suck... Building the homestead
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:01:00 - [17] Edited by: Shinon Asahina on 15/03/2007 11:03:10 Originally by: Vayron This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. If I were to sell my Mega/Zyd in 0.0 then the 30mil/hr would plummet to around 20mil/hr in a Hulk. Even if we were to do producing, the market on stuff gets flooded quickly, and we are still beholden to ratters for things like Tritanium that are basically exclusively from hauler spawns. (Not even accounting for trying to acquire BPOs and research them, which as everyone knows the T2 system still blows chunks) Then we have the whole can of beans that to mine really well you need a T2 ship that costs close to 600mil now -- min module outfits places you around 700-750mil. Ideal setup is close to 1.5bil. You can be an excellent ratter in a Raven that only costs around 300mil fitted very well, or around 200mil for a less beefy setup.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:01:00 - [18] Edited by: Shinon Asahina on 15/03/2007 11:03:10 Originally by: Vayron This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. If I were to sell my Mega/Zyd in 0.0 then the 30mil/hr would plummet to around 20mil/hr in a Hulk. Even if we were to do producing, the market on stuff gets flooded quickly, and we are still beholden to ratters for things like Tritanium that are basically exclusively from hauler spawns. (Not even accounting for trying to acquire BPOs and research them, which as everyone knows the T2 system still blows chunks) Then we have the whole can of beans that to mine really well you need a T2 ship that costs close to 600mil now -- min module outfits places you around 700-750mil. Ideal setup is close to 1.5bil. You can be an excellent ratter in a Raven that only costs around 300mil fitted very well, or around 200mil for a less beefy setup.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Kassidus Originally by: Shinon Asahina All comes down to risk, if i go into a fight with a Faction fitted BS , I stand to loose alot, a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money. how come you think miners stick to high-sec systems ? and how is mission running involving any risk ? you can just have a quick peak on eveinfo.com for any givin mission telling you excactly what npcs youll face and how many of them. it even tells you all the damage outputs and stuff. you know exactly what youll face, before you face it. a miner doesnt know which ncp spawns will spawn in a given belt. it may be small spawn or it may be a big one. leaving alone the risk of loosing ~1b isk for a well fitted hulk due to pirate ganks.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Kassidus Originally by: Shinon Asahina All comes down to risk, if i go into a fight with a Faction fitted BS , I stand to loose alot, a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money. how come you think miners stick to high-sec systems ? and how is mission running involving any risk ? you can just have a quick peak on eveinfo.com for any givin mission telling you excactly what npcs youll face and how many of them. it even tells you all the damage outputs and stuff. you know exactly what youll face, before you face it. a miner doesnt know which ncp spawns will spawn in a given belt. it may be small spawn or it may be a big one. leaving alone the risk of loosing ~1b isk for a well fitted hulk due to pirate ganks.
Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Shinon Asahina Edited by: Shinon Asahina on 15/03/2007 11:03:10 Originally by: Vayron This is a player driven economy. NPC ratting is set by CCP based on difficulty or threat level of the missions. Ore and mineral prices, and the prices of equipment manufactured with them are all set by the player base. It is up to you to find the best profit margin for your time, and it is certainly possible to make a lot of money from mining. The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. If I were to sell my Mega/Zyd in 0.0 then the 30mil/hr would plummet to around 20mil/hr in a Hulk. Even if we were to do producing, the market on stuff gets flooded quickly, and we are still beholden to ratters for things like Tritanium that are basically exclusively from hauler spawns. (Not even accounting for trying to acquire BPOs and research them, which as everyone knows the T2 system still blows chunks) Then we have the whole can of beans that to mine really well you need a T2 ship that costs close to 600mil now -- min module outfits places you around 700-750mil. Ideal setup is close to 1.5bil. You can be an excellent ratter in a Raven that only costs around 300mil fitted very well, or around 200mil for a less beefy setup. A covetor mines about 15% less than a hulk, and the only good reasons I know for someone mining in a hulk are 1. He's rich and doesnt care spending said 800mil 2. He wants to mine solo in 0.0. Get a group of 2+ people going where 1 is tanking a spawn in a BS and you dont need a hulk, spend 30mil on a covetor + fittings taking 15% less mining yield... As someone who npc in 0.0 for isk , ratting definetly is not more profitable than mining, since you cant count faction spawns in, who often enough give you a tag and 1000 rounds of gurista ammo. Actually, before the mineral prices dropped, you made about 80-100mil in a hulk mining, thats like 80mil more than an npcer does in 0.0, that wasnt fair either. Nows its just closer together.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:39:00 - [22] And how are you going to get the ratter to just sit there tanking the spawn indefinitely? Exactly. By paying them at least equal to what they would make solo ratting. Which means you drop your 30mil/hr to 20mil immediately ... not even factoring in hauling then again. And yes, the Hulk is sadly not a ton better than the Covetor. Which is even more of an insult as far as skills go then. But the screwed up way the skill requirements are for Exhumers, if you can fly a Covetor then you half all or nearly all the requirements to train Exhumers anyways.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.03.15 11:51:00 - [23] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Well you can use it to reprocess 'low value loot' more effectively into its mineral components. Which makes ratting more valuable (ie the value of a 'civilian shield booster' is worth more trit to a miner than to a ratter....
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. Well you can use it to reprocess 'low value loot' more effectively into its mineral components. Which makes ratting more valuable (ie the value of a 'civilian shield booster' is worth more trit to a miner than to a ratter.... Funnily enough, a producer will make more off that then a miner since they're more likely to have metallurgy 5 trained. And as you just conveniently said - the skillset somewhat allows you to segue into ratting. But why not just start ratting and probably make a hell of a lot more money, more easily and then train the refining skills? The issue is, the skill set is just too high for something which only ever works well if you have a huge amount of combat support behind you (0.0 territory, defense, fear-of-god etc.) Finally, where does low-value loot come from? Ratting. In a game with a massive PVP focus, all paths need to some tangible ability to fight on some level.
Frances Ducoir Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:08:00 - [25] I endorse the ops opinion. If mining would have more variety it would be more fun but it's plain boring. things i would like: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for rigs which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that - mining capital ship - make some of the 0.0 ores spawn in lowsec (afaik there is mainly jaspet which has a bad risk/reward rate) - more mining vessels which are more specialised regarding the ore types - as said above, rigs for miners - DRONE mining barges which have boni for mining drones and can compete with normal barges. (and in conclusion to this maybe t2 or faction mining drones with much more than 25 ore / cycle) - maybe something else which could make mining more unpredictable and fun... feel free to think of, i have stated all which came in my mind for now
Taizu Lilith Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:09:00 - [26] The problem is the NPC Bounties. You don't even loot or salvage most the time while ratting. If you had to loot/salvage the ISK/hr would go down a lot, additionally, inflation would be lower. As far as skills, yes, ratting/missioning and PvP has overlap, but also has a lot more skill points. This means that miners have an easier time branching out into trade or industry or research. Actually, a pure PvPer and Mission runner will have adifferent skills to because of social skills. Fix NPC bounties would fix a lot of things in the game.
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Shinon Asahina The prices I'm quoting to you ARE the "best possible" pricing on the ore. The mining yield is priced that way by stockpiling huge amounts of high-ends and shipping them back to empire for sale. But this is still controlled by the players. You have not offered a solution to the problem, only complained that it exists. You have not stated how it is even controlled by CCP. The only thing I see controlled by CCP is the NPC rat values. The individual loots aren't even controlled by CCP since that is once again player driven pricing. I'm not disputing the disparity between the two professions. "Another day, another million ISK"
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:17:00 - [28] Edited by: James Duar on 15/03/2007 12:14:46 Originally by: Taizu Lilith The problem is the NPC Bounties. You don't even loot or salvage most the time while ratting. If you had to loot/salvage the ISK/hr would go down a lot, additionally, inflation would be lower. As far as skills, yes, ratting/missioning and PvP has overlap, but also has a lot more skill points. This means that miners have an easier time branching out into trade or industry or research. Actually, a pure PvPer and Mission runner will have adifferent skills to because of social skills. Fix NPC bounties would fix a lot of things in the game. I'm sorry but, what? Assume for a moment that most miners try to mine for ISK to PVP and you start to see where they're coming from. Your ISK/hr caps out pretty quickly. The whole field just sort of dies and suffers serious diminishing returns for trying to get better stuff. Now, that said, I think done right the ORE capital ship could help this situation a lot. If we got a ship which had the mining output potential of an Exhumer, but with a vast cargo bay, then most miners would be very happy since it really would be something to shoot for - the ability to roam like ratters and mine away from station systems. Massive ISK potential? You bet - a reasonable reward for the substantial moves away from PVP skills you make for following down the mining pathway. EDIT: Veyron - the complaint is the amount of specialization you invest compared to the return, compared to being able to make with the pew pew and make about the same money for far less the initial ISK outlay.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:18:00 - [29] It used to be possible to mine get 50-67M /h by mining crokite with one character, the excact amount depending on skills. On top of that you had to haul, refine, etc etc however. Now, the prices have halved, and you are lucky to get even that 30M/h. Hence, It just is not worth it. Unless you are producing just for yourself and friends. It's easier to get ISK by ratting, plex/mission running or empire pirating. Exploration is a bit more risky, since there are possibilities of getting eq worth 1-1.5B ISK, but they are rare... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:24:00 - [30] Keep in mind that NPC bounties are taxable by your corporation. Miners get a bit of a tax break in that area. I do see the "skip loot" for profit going on. I can get more missions, more bounties and more mission rewards in an hour by not looting. Now if my Battle Cruiser was as fast as a Frigate I would stop to loot much more often. More cargo space on miners I see as a good thing, but also opens some potential for more AFK miners and macro miners. I doubt I could set up a macro for mission running, but I haven't tried. :) "Another day, another million ISK"
JabJabVVV Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:29:00 - [31] To the OP: You seem to be comparing best case ratting with average mining, this is obviously not a fair comparison. If I have an excellent system all to my self and have a lot of luck with the spawns then of course I'm going to make more isk per hour than someone solo mining in a coveter in an average system. However I think that a well organised mini mining op (say 5/6 people) mining high end ores in Covetors/hulks will make more isk per hour per person than an individual ratting under usual circumstances (the times that you have an ideal system with good spawns to yourself are very rare indeed whereas mining high end ore in an alliance is easy). As for mining barges not tanking as well as battleships... well I think the clue is in the ship names. Finally down to the skills, if you are in this game for the isk then specialising in mining is far quicker than specialising in ratting (I have an industrial alt which can mine pretty much optimally with fewer than 10million SP, it even has exhumers 5) whereas it takes more SP to rat optimally. As for hulks, they are insanely overpriced. So to conclude: mining isn't a second class profession at all when it comes to isk making; if you are good at it and are in a corp with a few good miners and access to good space then your income will easily outstrip any people relying on NPC's. ----------- When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things.
Arron S Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:44:00 - [32] The ISK is in Mining is in 0.0 and low sec empire... You can make alot of iskies in empire, but you need uber mining skillzors! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2007.03.15 12:47:00 - [33] LOL, I'll have to add that quote to my list of stupidest quotes that I've heard this year. Aren't PvP skills completely worthless for mining and production? You still need some of the same electronics, engineering, mechanical, starship, and drone skills for mining and production. You really don't need to scramble or bubble a roid to keep it in place and webbing it or dampening it doesn't do much either. Of course I haven't tried it to see if it keeps the rock from disappearing when it's depleted. You can't even suck energy from the roids with Nosferatus. Having a fleet of dreadnaughts at the belt will not stop the rocks from growing back (or make them grow any faster) nor will it stop the spawns from showing up. Of course you might have a hard time hitting the npcs with those xl guns. Stay close to my Hulk and I'll protect you! Originally by: Shinon Asahina The problem with that is that mining skills are completely worthless to doing anything other than mining and production.
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2007.03.15 13:04:00 - [34] Everyone always compares the amount of isk mined per hour between empire and 0.0. That's very misleading and not even close to an actual comparison. No one in 0.0 calculates the time they loose sitting in a station waiting for hostiles to leave or the cost of the ships that they loose trying to protect their precious 0.0 mining location. With all that figured in you can pretty much guarantee that the guy mining in Empire will end up making more money overall than the guy in 0.0 simply because he can utilize every minute of his playing time and he'll still be flying the same ship he started with a year from now. The most powerful people in the game are production people. Most people will say that the head of alliances are the most powerful people in the game and that's only because they have convinced people to do the mining and production for them. You won't find many rich PvPers in the game unless they are into production with their alts or have others working for them.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.15 13:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Shinon Asahina And how are you going to get the ratter to just sit there tanking the spawn indefinitely? Exactly. By paying them at least equal to what they would make solo ratting. Which means you drop your 30mil/hr to 20mil immediately ... not even factoring in hauling then again. And yes, the Hulk is sadly not a ton better than the Covetor. Which is even more of an insult as far as skills go then. But the screwed up way the skill requirements are for Exhumers, if you can fly a Covetor then you half all or nearly all the requirements to train Exhumers anyways. Unless your tanker is in a Rokh that, as noted above, gets 60-80% of the yield of a Covetor.
Akane Miyamoto Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.15 13:32:00 - [36] Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour
Haks'he Lirky Durgar og Illmenni	Posted - 2007.03.15 13:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Shinon Asahina Has CCP stated that mining is intended to be a secondary moneymaking skill? Because based on the current state of things, it really seems that way. Most new players and many older players think that things are all about the isk when the truth of the matter is that mining isnt about getting rich is about manufacturing equipment wich is not possible with ISK only, wealth in eve is abstract. But I must admit i've never seen the point of taking up mining as a full time profession, it's more like a thing to do while watching a movie, studying and on rare occasions working. If you compare the ISK vs attention required ratio then mining is much more profitable than ratting.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:00:00 - [38] Tramp: Uhm ... losing what ships? If you aren't a moron, and can actually pay attention to local then you shouldn't lose any ships. I've been in 0.0 for around 6 weeks now and still have my original mining barge and ratting ship TYVM. Find a safer place to mine then as well if hostiles are that much of a problem. I also mine mostly Crimson and Prime arkonor FYI...
Zephyrys Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:44:00 - [39] Hmmm lets see Ratting = fly to different belts.. pop rats.. loot and move on Mining = sit in belt, fight or flight when rats or pirates arrive, if you run.. you gotta wait for someoen to take care of rats or for pirates to leave. Most likely you ended up leaving a can out there. For the poster stating that with a mini mining op you can make as much as a ratter.. you do realize that in yor statement you are saying a miner needs 4-5 other ppl to accomplish the same as a solo ratter.. right? Ratting... Solo play...can defend or fight back.. run if necessary. Range = Any system.. anytime, anywhere they want Added risk...none Mining.. only solo if you can tank the rats otherwise you need someoen to defend you. Then you have to take into account hauling. Range = Any system that has a refinery.. or any system thats maybe 1 jump away if solo.. maybe 2 if you have someone else hauling for you.. then you got to add in their cut. Added risk.. you are stationary in a belt for long periods of time
Vladimir Ilych Gradient	Posted - 2007.03.15 14:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Shinon Asahina Yes its true that a Hulk pulls in around 30mil/hr in ore, but that is only if it doesn't have to haul that ore back itself. And as I said before -- pirates are going to know exactly what systems the miners are going to always be in, and they also have to sit in the same belt for hours. So take some security with you? I have done mining ops in low sec with 1 combat ship for every barge or hauler.
Zephyrys Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 15:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Originally by: Shinon Asahina Yes its true that a Hulk pulls in around 30mil/hr in ore, but that is only if it doesn't have to haul that ore back itself. And as I said before -- pirates are going to know exactly what systems the miners are going to always be in, and they also have to sit in the same belt for hours. So take some security with you? I have done mining ops in low sec with 1 combat ship for every barge or hauler. Ah see there is the kicker.. In order to be as productive as a ratter.. a miner needs to involve more ppl, which requiress longer mining ops to pay for those other peoples time.. whereas a ratter simply undocks and hits a belt for solo gains.
Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:19:00 - [42] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 15/03/2007 17:22:52 Originally by: Shinon Asahina And how are you going to get the ratter to just sit there tanking the spawn indefinitely? Exactly. By paying them at least equal to what they would make solo ratting. Which means you drop your 30mil/hr to 20mil immediately ... not even factoring in hauling then again. And yes, the Hulk is sadly not a ton better than the Covetor. Which is even more of an insult as far as skills go then. But the screwed up way the skill requirements are for Exhumers, if you can fly a Covetor then you half all or nearly all the requirements to train Exhumers anyways. lol? Fit a dominix, apoc, geddon, abaddon, rokh for mining and tanking, dont split anything to an npcer. Originally by: Zephyrys For the poster stating that with a mini mining op you can make as much as a ratter.. you do realize that in yor statement you are saying a miner needs 4-5 other ppl to accomplish the same as a solo ratter.. right? He used this as an example, dont take it out of context. If you mine solo in 0.0 in a hulk you make a bit more isk than an npcer, with the inconvenience of having to haul your minerals and refine them. Mining in groups is just easier, which isnt really a bad thing, since its an mmo, and having a few peeps to mine with you in 0.0 is not difficult at all to optimize profits. Both is possible doing solo, but mining can be made easier with more people involved, whereas Npcing is almost not possible anymore with more than 2 people in a single system, which is already hard to find in any decent system in 0.0 an alliance claims, and you mostly have to leave any station systems, since they are most blobbed by npcers. Mining also has the benefit of you being able to manufacture things with the mins, whereas a npcer has to buy and get his stuff to 0.0...its just different, but both viable.
Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:22:00 - [43] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 15/03/2007 17:18:15 bloody double post...
Draconyx	Posted - 2007.03.15 17:41:00 - [44] High Sec Miner against High Sec Ratter. Miner will win any day of the week. [High Sec is designed around keeping the Eve econamy going or industry) Now 0.0 the ratter on average will earn more then a miner does cause they can solo all day like a miner can in high sec. But 0.0 is the like the fuedal times where anarchy rules . It is about combat first and industry second and industry is to support the combat. All things considered the system works very well. Keep in mind there are exceptions there is know way to say EVERYONE in this game (which as it should be)
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.15 20:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. Actually, this is untrue. The key is the types of spawns. I can easily make 30mil or more an hour npcing. The trick is to kill everything bellow 1mil in bounty and any spawn that isnt a tripple bs spawn that meets the 1mil rule. Eventually you get a system full of bs over that amount or more and let me tell you when this happens.... dear god the money comes flying. To answer the op, I have seen estimates of pilots making closer to 60-70mil an hour mining high ends (yes they had to have haulers aka alts) But I think your whine is a bit unwarranted in this case. Most people fail to realize that to make the really big bucks and quickly you NEED more than one account. 6/10 need at least 2 accounts, mining needs a miner and hauler, ratting needs the same. The key differences in mining and ratting are Mining, You get a guarentted set steady income. Mining is not sense intensive (meaning you can easily do other things on the web and mine at the same time) If done properly one does not have to move about much Npcing Fluxuating income Moving around alot some skills are used in pvp (as in gunnery etc) Now heres the thing. Alot of people fail to realize the real benefit of NPCing doesnt come from bounties... it come from mods. First tech 1 non named item refines give you the whole spectrum of mins, making it much easier to build things you need. (BS mods give you a large amount of needed minerals) Second named mods can sell to great affect in empire. Most of my trips to empire hauling 20k of named mods net between 300-600mil depending on what drops were. At most I would say the two fields are on par. The real issue seems to be in their differences than them being unbalanced towards each other.
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Frances Ducoir Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/03/2007 12:10:11 I endorse the ops opinion. If mining would have more variety it would be more fun but it's plain boring. things i would like: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for rigs which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that RARE SPAWNS ? this isnt WOW and i sure as heck WOULD NEVER want it to become like what you describe (just like wow) Quote: - mining capital ship - make some of the 0.0 ores spawn in lowsec (afaik there is mainly jaspet which has a bad risk/reward rate) - more mining vessels which are more specialised regarding the ore types why not just the lasers and crystals that are already in use , it hardly makes sense for an entire ship to be made just to be better at for example kernite, its the lasers that do the work Quote: - as said above, rigs for miners - DRONE mining barges which have boni for mining drones and can compete with normal barges. (and in conclusion to this maybe t2 or faction mining drones with much more than 25 ore / cycle) - maybe something else which could make mining more unpredictable and fun... feel free to think of, i have stated all which came in my mind for now btw: i'am a pure pve player i have mining IV but thats all. if mining would have some of the things i stated above i would surely consider skilling a mining alt
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:40:00 - [47] Uhm ... but how many PvP ships have you lost earning the right to mine that Arkonor and how much time have you wasted PvPing so you could mine? All that counts towards your overall profit/loss. And if you don't PvP then you are one of the rare people that have everyone else loose their ships and spend their time so that you can mine in peace. A miner in Empire doesn't have any of that to worry about. TYVM Originally by: Shinon Asahina Tramp: Uhm ... losing what ships? If you aren't a moron, and can actually pay attention to local then you shouldn't lose any ships. I've been in 0.0 for around 6 weeks now and still have my original mining barge and ratting ship TYVM. Find a safer place to mine then as well if hostiles are that much of a problem. I also mine mostly Crimson and Prime arkonor FYI...
Haruna Ogawa Minmatar	Posted - 2007.03.15 21:58:00 - [48] Hmm.. I think people forgot a little detail about mining in 0.0 You need a damn POS to refine. (POS = logistic to haul the daman fuel) Minne, haul, refine, haul the mienrals... Only after you sell the minerals you get the isk. So the process to get the isk is much longer than ratting. Ratting in 0.0: kill the rat, isk in your wallet Mining in 0.0: mine, haul, refine, haul, sell, isk in your wallet
xeom Exit 13	Posted - 2007.03.15 22:19:00 - [49] Rofl to all the noobs saying they make more money mining in high-sec. Back when i was in alliance I lost a total of 1 medium barge.Thats it and it was becasue i was AFK when a pirate came in local. You empire huggers are really insane if you think you make the same ammount of isk. And yes your better of ratting anyday now with the mineral price drops.And the best way to make isk really is well to run 0.0 missions(Make it a cosmos and even better). --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
VanNostrum Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:39:00 - [50] Originally by: Frances Ducoir Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/03/2007 12:10:11 I endorse the ops opinion. If mining would have more variety it would be more fun but it's plain boring. things i would like: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for rigs which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that - mining capital ship - make some of the 0.0 ores spawn in lowsec (afaik there is mainly jaspet which has a bad risk/reward rate) - more mining vessels which are more specialised regarding the ore types - as said above, rigs for miners - DRONE mining barges which have boni for mining drones and can compete with normal barges. (and in conclusion to this maybe t2 or faction mining drones with much more than 25 ore / cycle) - maybe something else which could make mining more unpredictable and fun... feel free to think of, i have stated all which came in my mind for now btw: i'am a pure pve player i have mining IV but thats all. if mining would have some of the things i stated above i would surely consider skilling a mining alt I liked your mining capital ship idea. Perhaps one that could also refine the ore itself without the need to dock to a station for refining. It should have big drone space for defence vs pirates, and should be able to make jumps like carriers. Would be something cool to see. That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter. It is a combat drone used by carriers.
Kyoi	Posted - 2007.03.15 23:49:00 - [51] You are lucky to make 20mill an hour ratting and thats not because I cant pop the spawns its finding them. Roids arnt hard to find they are located in every belt, a lot of your time ratting is going to be wasted trying to find some decent spawns only to find they magically disappear at in-opportune moments. You can obviously make a living out of it but comparing the 20mill to the 100mill you can make an hour (that is including the best skills, leadership mining skills, mindlink, t2 crystals, hulk etc). There is a reason people have mining alts you know
Lygos Finis Actum	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:05:00 - [52] Edited by: Lygos on 16/03/2007 00:02:57 The mineral economy needs to be freed to keep pace with currency adjustments. All NPC involvement in the mineral economy should be either eliminated, or configured to float. At the very least, their involvement should have a daily unit limit. I don't mind the NPC corporations participating in the market provided their participation is finite. As isk devalues, agents and npcs should get a gradual nerf, and this will be cushionned by increasing focus on the second currency of LP. --- T2 Risk \| Corp Divisions
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.16 00:57:00 - [53] Ok, lets do a little "bogus" math on mining. Lets assume 30mill an hour as a value for your minerals mined. Lets also assume you have access to a nice station/outpost with 0% tax allowing 100% refine. So you mine your ore, for every hour you spend around 15mins hauling it, refining is so fast it barely counts so we'll skip that, then (every two hours or so of mining, due to not being able to fill your lows with expanders) you have to get it to empire which, with reasonable caution and not living in "deep" 0.0, will take between 30 mins to an hour. Then you have check the market, set up sell orders and head back, your not so careful on the way home so we'll say 45mins total. This leaves you with 2 hours of mining at 60mill and 1 and a half hours not mining so your making around 17mill an hour Finally lets assume that despite all your reasonable care 1 in every 5 shipments is lost, a conservative estimate even in peacetime, but if it's too much for you to think reasonable consider that I haven't included the possibility of losing the hulk itself. This leaves around 14mill an hour... not so impressive really is it for all that extra work. Fact is I get more in bounties alone for an hours ratting than that (in -0.6 not -1.0), add the worthwhile loot you can sell in system at a discount or stockpile and make one journey a month or so (or hell if its that rare an event why not pester a carrier pilot to jump it for you) and add the possibility of a faction/officer spawn and mining really isn't worth the time anymore. If you don't have access to a 100% refine station or the highest end ores then you may as well forget 0.0 all together and go mine omber in empire if you can find any. The industrialists make a lot of money off the back of the flood of low priced empire minerals (and for the most part they do it one little slice at a time). Short version: Drake > Hulk ....and yes the math is basic and crap as advertised but it's a reasonable indication of a situation with far too many variables to express simply (and me not being a mathematical genius probably doesn't help).
Lygos Finis Actum	Posted - 2007.03.16 01:08:00 - [54] The more extensive fix would be to nerf meta loot. And by nerf, I mean specialize. T1 should be standard. And by standard, I mean middle of the road. Not exceptional, but entirely balanced and adequate in all respects. Your average meta item might give a bonus in one stat, but carry a deficit in another. More damage, more power consumption. More range, less accuracy. More falloff, less optimal. Meta would still be valuable, but it would not be +1 to shiny. Meta items would shift in value, but on average their values would be similar to one another, and rarity would be less of an issue. Market mavens would capitalize on flavor of the week setups, and markets would actually shift occasionally. One week you can pick up Limited Ions at 100k, the next you can sell them at 1M. And round and round it goes. Rarity should not be governed by artificial npc supply, but by real player demand. Stockpiles never last forever. --- T2 Risk \| Corp Divisions
Chimu Quien	Posted - 2007.03.16 01:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Kassidus a miner sits in highsec and goes pew pew with mining lasers, I hope the person in combat makes more money. What is "pew pew"? Sounds like baby talk.
Shinon Asahina Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.16 01:26:00 - [56] Riley explains pretty well what you guys should be doing ratting: Kill off the smaller spawns, and chain the larger BS spawns in a system. Eventually you have most of the belts with BS spawns of bounties 1.2mil+ ... let your corpmates know to come salvage then too if you like. Let me assure you that the idea max mining/hr atm is around 40mil. I have a friend that has Exhumers5 and 2 alts while he mines with the Hulk (uber 1.5bil modded Hulk) and thats how much the minerals are worth moving the high-ends to empire. Your 60-100mil in an hour for mining is completely bogus in todays economy.
Angry Alt Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.03.16 01:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Lygos The more extensive fix would be to nerf meta loot. And by nerf, I mean specialize. T1 should be standard. And by standard, I mean middle of the road. Not exceptional, but entirely balanced and adequate in all respects. Your average meta item might give a bonus in one stat, but carry a deficit in another. More damage, more power consumption. More range, less accuracy. More falloff, less optimal. Meta would still be valuable, but it would not be +1 to shiny. Meta items would shift in value, but on average their values would be similar to one another, and rarity would be less of an issue. Market mavens would capitalize on flavor of the week setups, and markets would actually shift occasionally. One week you can pick up Limited Ions at 100k, the next you can sell them at 1M. And round and round it goes. Rarity should not be governed by artificial npc supply, but by real player demand. Stockpiles never last forever. You've basically described T2. Replace the word 'meta' with 'T2' and 'week' with 'patch' and you're spot on. Dunno what this has to do with OP. Existentialism FTW.
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.16 02:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour but that would require an officer every hour so, you cant.
Nighlighted Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.16 02:20:00 - [59] I have no idea on what you mean on second class. If you can mine, and find someone to buy your ore, then you can make a profit. Ratting is more about finding the rats and shooting them to make money. You really can't have one without the other. In fact, tonight I'm doing tons of ratting while I'm mining. I'll need to get a better barge though. Switching ships is a very time consuming process.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.16 03:32:00 - [60] Edited by: Riley Craven on 16/03/2007 03:28:55 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour but that would require an officer every hour so, you cant. Must be a noob then, cuse I can and have on several occasions. Officers/commander spawns were only icing on the cake.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.03.16 06:33:00 - [61] Originally by: Laboratus It used to be possible to mine get 50-67M /h by mining crokite with one character, the excact amount depending on skills. On top of that you had to haul, refine, etc etc however. Now, the prices have halved, and you are lucky to get even that 30M/h. Hence, It just is not worth it. Unless you are producing just for yourself and friends. It's easier to get ISK by ratting, plex/mission running or empire pirating. Exploration is a bit more risky, since there are possibilities of getting eq worth 1-1.5B ISK, but they are rare... Agreed. I don't think we'd even be having this conversation 6 months ago, but now the mining/ratting ratio is way out of whack. When factoring in shipping and what-not ratting is more profitable in the short-term, never mind long-term issues such as mining skills which have been devalued. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 07:19:00 - [62] PS: Why does the foreman link for drones STILL not exist yet AFAIK? =D
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.16 11:48:00 - [63] Edited by: heheheh on 16/03/2007 11:44:55 Originally by: Riley Craven Edited by: Riley Craven on 16/03/2007 03:28:55 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour but that would require an officer every hour so, you cant. Must be a noob then, cuse I can and have on several occasions. Officers/commander spawns were only icing on the cake. finding an officer on several occasions is not finding one every hour, every time you rat though is it? you cannot find an officer every hour, everytime you rat. read and comprehend before answering with drivel.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.16 12:02:00 - [64] Edited by: Laboratus on 16/03/2007 11:58:53 Originally by: heheheh finding an officer on several occasions is not finding one every hour, every time you rat though is it? you cannot find an officer every hour, everytime you rat. read and comprehend before answering with drivel. I've found that at least in guristas space, system sec is not so impoetant in DG spawns than the number of ppl in system. I've gotten at best 3 DG spawns in a day in a station system with 50ppl in it and at max 1 a day in a less populated system. Ok, cruiser spawns, but they drop the more valuable DG loot anyways... Also, a corp mate of mine has claimed that they spawn at specific systems after boot... Don't know if he is right, but the amount of DG loot he has would suggest so. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.16 12:16:00 - [65] The problem is and always will be that it is a player run economy. Complain about an imbalance all you want, but I don't see any solutions offered here that could be implemented by a change in some game mechanic. "Another day, another million ISK"
Frances Ducoir Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2007.03.16 12:31:00 - [66] Originally by: RaWBLooD Originally by: Frances Ducoir Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/03/2007 12:10:11 I endorse the ops opinion. If mining would have more variety it would be more fun but it's plain boring. things i would like: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for rigs which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that RARE SPAWNS ? this isnt WOW and i sure as heck WOULD NEVER want it to become like what you describe (just like wow) so you have rare spawns in belt ratting (officer and faction) you get rare things in plexes, you can get rare things though exploration and you can even get faction spawns in mission so WHY should there be no rare spawns in roids and wtf has it to do with WoW? if there are rarespawns for the rest of the game why should there be none for mining? heck... there are even "rarespawn" when you pvp. you could ever come across a faction/officer/deadspace fitted enemy. i really don not understand you opinion. mining is boring and rarespawns would spice it up a bit. here is another idea which i got regarding to rare spawns: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for RIGS which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that - if you mine in highsec or other npc regions you could find a new or rare lifeform (kind of bacteria or fungii) in ice roids, which would boost your standing to research or mining corporations if sold to them -> more variety as well as a new kind of boosting your standings for r&d which is more fun than grinding hauling missions do you see the purpose for there rare spawns? MINING RIGS... which is something which will be implemented surely... soon TM ^^
Friggz	Posted - 2007.03.16 14:06:00 - [67] Ok, lets assume for a moment that your right and ratting does make more money then mining. Theres basicly no way to 'fix' it. The amount of money players make mining can only be adjusted by CCP in one way, and its not particularly a good idea or garenteed to work. You can take my word for it or read the wall of text below. I know what your probably thinking "Just make it easier to mine!" Ok, CCP makes it easier for you to mine. That means CCP makes it easier for everyone to mine. What happens? The amount of minerals on the market increases while the demand remains static. The laws of supply and demand dictate that the prices will then lower because theres more competiton for the same demand. From an economical point of view, ratting and mining are completely different because mining circulates currency already in existance whereas ratting creates new money from outside the system. Basicly Eve's economy works like this: ISK Enters system primarly through ratting and missions ISK circulates the system through player trades, primarly mining and manufactering ISK leaves the system primarly through priacy and alliance wars. Since mining doesn't create extra ISK the amount of money a miner makes from mining is completely reliant on the supply and demand as I said. When you kill a rat its a garenteed payday. When you try to sell minerals its not. Someone has to be out there willing to pay what your asking and have the ISK to pay it. If you took a single isk you got from selling a mineral and traced it back to who owned that isk since its creation you'd eventually trace it back to a mission or npc bounty almost everytime. Maybe you'd have to go back 100 transactions but that isk had to have come from somewhere. Remember, mining can only circulate existing currency, and the existing currency miners make all came from ratting in the first place. What does this mean? Simple: That the amount of money people make from ratting directly effects the amount of money miners can make from mining. They circulate existing currency, therefore the amount of currency in circulation dictates what people are able to pay for minerals. If people don't have money they can't buy minerals. Its that simple. So, we can't make mining easer because it increases supply, we can't reduce the amount ratters make because then people have less money to spend on minerals. Whats left? Well whats left is increasing demand. There are two ways to do this. The first is increase the demand on ships and modules by having more getting blown up. Well that doesn't help miners much, you get more for your minerals but you have higher expenses so it balances out. Funny how everything always balances out, isn't it? Nope, the ONLY way to increase demand that yields extra profitability would be to increase the amount of minerals required to make everything. Take the number and bump it across the board. Now your creating more demand. If your still with me from the first paragraph I said this wasn't a particularly good idea and I mean it. If you did increase the amount of minerals required to make items, you increase the price of minerals, but you also drasticly increase the cost of ships and modules because not only do manufacters need to pay more per mineral they need more of them two. Its a double whammy to manufacters. They would be forced to raise the prices on ships and modules. What does this mean? Basicly that a single ISK wouldn't be worth as much as it is now. If the price of everything you buy goes up 20% that means the currency your using is basicly 20% less valuable then it was before. This would effect everyone. Including miners. So now your getting more ISK but that isn't as valuable as it was before. Sorry but miners are slaves to the econmy they exist in. Theres no reliable way to increase money miners make without completely screwing over the economy.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.16 14:31:00 - [68] Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 16/03/2007 11:44:55 Originally by: Riley Craven Edited by: Riley Craven on 16/03/2007 03:28:55 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour but that would require an officer every hour so, you cant. Must be a noob then, cuse I can and have on several occasions. Officers/commander spawns were only icing on the cake. finding an officer on several occasions is not finding one every hour, every time you rat though is it? you cannot find an officer every hour, everytime you rat. read and comprehend before answering with drivel. Well mister alt tastic maybe you should try reading alittle better. I am saying that officers/commanders are not needed to acheive the income of 30mil per hour ratting. Just because you cant manage it doesnt mean its not possible.
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:53:00 - [69] only thing I wanna say is... Multi chain :) but it only realy works if you got 20 or more belts in a v little used -0.5 or better system.
Fork Boy	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:12:00 - [70] Edited by: Fork Boy on 16/03/2007 18:09:11 Riley, can you please sort your sig out mate? I wish standard barges were a bit more protectible. Even in high sec, the macro hunters are a bit trigger happy, and you are easy prey to an alpha strike if someone wants to grief you. I can't protect against that alpha strike in any way I'm aware of, just clear up the pieces, even if I had 10 battleships on standby. A covertor and 3 strip miners, or a mackinaw with 2 ice miners ... that's a lot of ISK to be invested to get blown away by someone on a whim. Well, it's a lot of ISK to me anyway. You don't even have the ability to get a half decent tank at the expense of something else, like you can with say an Iteron 5 using lows for armour and / or mids for shield at the expense of cargo capacity. Even on the largest standard barge you've got 1 mid, and 2 lows to play with. Even with that said, I still enjoy mining, but wish I could deploy some anti griefer bumping shield or something, to keep the idiots away who always seem to pop up. ================================= A fork is a cold, shiny tool To pierce, tear and ingest. Whoever has the fork in hand Controls the meal of their choice.
Cloora APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:43:00 - [71] Edited by: Cloora on 16/03/2007 18:50:22 I didn't read the entire thread but I read the whole first page. My problem with being a miner is that I still HAVE to fight! Unless all I want to do is mine and sell the ore I have to fight NPCs and run missions. This is because if I want to refine without waste I have to have good standings. How do I get good standings? I have to run missions all the way to level 4 and be proficiant at combat. To be sucessful at lvl 4 missions I have to deviate from my skill training and train for combat. Why? Why can I not get standings with some other way that do not cost me skillpoints and time to train for combat. That is just for mining in high sec. I still have to have someone haul for me and if I want to mine in low or nullsec I need protection. People say, "Well get a group EVE isn't a solo game." If that is true then why can a high sec lvl 4 mission runner make plenty of ISK solo, and then go back and salvage said mission and make even more ISK? In fact only the industrialist and the mission runner can be sucessful solo. A miner cannot, we need a hauler AT LEAST. A PvPer isn't going to be very sucessful unless he/she is part of a group. Miners ARE a 2nd class citizen. We should be an equal class. We can make as much ISK as a mission runner if we mine in nullsec but we can't do it solo. In high sec the mission runner has the obvious advantage. PLEASE CCP give miners something better! More skills and barges that can hold some ore for petes sake! And can tank at least as well as the Badgers that haul for me! (Badger Mk II is sufficient) ======================================== Production Assistant of APEX Unlimited I don't want to be forced to Jet Can mine or buy a hauler alt to mine effectivly. BIGGER CARGO HOLDS IN BARGES NOW!
Amphetaminer	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:18:00 - [72] ya the mining part of the game is lacking in so many ways. First you would think a mining barge would be able to take some dmg? things like a covetor wich u fit with 60m+ in modules can be ganked easily so you are never safe anywhere When you are mining in 1 cycle if all ur lasers are done your cargo bay is full so you need to jet can mine (GSC is impossible because you fill it within 1 cycle and moving every 3mins + buying gsc + anchoring them and placing them makes it impossbile to mine efficient) So you jettison your ore whats next: someone in a combat ship will come and transfer your ore to his can. Your in a mining barge you can do nothing to him if you do he will shoot your precious ship to pieces. If you try to reclaim your ore, again you will be shot down. Now people will say you shouldnt play solo.. Ok so you get someone there to defend you. Now somehow you found a person thats crazy enough to just sit there waiting for something to happen hour after hour (i geuss you will also have to pay this person since he could be making much more doing something usefull. Thus meaning you make even less) Now there is mr hauler ore thief. He flies to your can engages warp and just before he warps takes your ores. Now there is nothing you can do against him or your defender friend. So now you will say you need a hauler.. Ok so then you need a hauler a defender + yourself all that need to get payed. Somehow you manage all of this then you still need to do stupid mission to get standings with the station to refine your stuff. Its like saying to a mission runner hey you need to go do mining in order to get the bounty of the ships you shot. I bet if there was a way for players to steal all your loot from missions almost risk free it would get fixed quite fast.. Oh yes did i mention you also cant be in a decent corp or alliance if you want to mine in empire because you will get war dec'd by privateers and they will kill your precious ship with paperthin armor in a second. oh yes how i love the balance..
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:46:00 - [73] There are ways to make mining more profitable for the honest miner. Firstly you start by combating the huge amount of blatant macro-mining that goes on, these people can mine 23/7 in near total security so they really don't mind undercutting everyone else on the market and forcing mineral prices down, the cheap ships may be nice but it's has made the miners time worth less each passing month. Secondly you can get rid of the high-end minerals in the drone spawns. You should NOT be able to mine with weaponry, in my opinion this is a very poor solution to the isk fountain that is 0.0 ratting as it has lowered the value of zydrine and megacyte a lot due to the added competition. Messing with mineral requirements on BPOs or adding new toys will do nothing to fix the prices. The only thing that will is removing the systems that encourage people to sell minerals for a lot less that they're worth.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.03.17 01:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Secondly you can get rid of the high-end minerals in the drone spawns. You should NOT be able to mine with weaponry, in my opinion this is a very poor solution to the isk fountain that is 0.0 ratting as it has lowered the value of zydrine and megacyte a lot due to the added competition. That's pretty much the crux of the issue. Something in Kali killed mining(more than likely the drones), CCP needs to fix it. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.17 02:01:00 - [75] Here are my fixes, they probably are not too well thought out, so if you want to poke holes at least do so respectfully: 1. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. 2. Refining needs to be more specialized. You gave us 3 major refining skills and a minor one for each ore but in high sec you barely need any of them to refine effectivly? What kind of crap is that? 3. Maybe allow more then 5 mining drones out with a module. For instance, make a low slot module that increases the number of mining drones you can launch by 2. Make it a "mining upgrade" and raise the CPU reqs of mining upgrades to the same insane levels as strip miners. Then give barges and exhumers a reduction on that upgrade. This gives miners the option of using drones, or just upgrading the mining output of lasers. Gives a little variety. 4. Reduce the amount of minerals gained from reprocessing items, or make it harder to get those insane amounts of minerals with out some very good reprocessing skills. 5. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. (Stupid Rokh!) 6. Remove the stupid drone ore. Seriously? Where does that stuff come from? Why cant we mine it? Give the drones a bounty to make the ratters/mission runners happy. 7. Please please please! Fix mining missions. Here is one idea of how to do it. The mission takes you to a gate, that gate leads to a drone infested area that has some npc's fighting them off for you. You have to mine the roids before the droids overcome the defenders. So for harder missions you might need more then one miner to get the ore out, or maybe some defenders of your own, or a bigger ship. Talk about excitement! Just get the freaking kill missions out of the mining angents. Give me a few days I might be able to come up with some more. The trick is making it so that the player cannot just buy the ore on the market, he/she has to activly mine it. Another option is making it not cost effective to do so. I mean the goal of missions is to make it so that they take less ore from you (for miners anyways) so the standing is more important the the cash 8. Make it so that you can make BPC's from the Hulk BPO's. I am not clear on the problem but I am told it was due to the BPC copy time. 9. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. I realize 1,5,and 9 are the same. But seriously, this is just wrong. I am pretty sure its the bulk of what the OP was trying to get at in her origional post. Let me know what you think... please be constructive!
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.03.17 10:36:00 - [76] i'd love to see what would happen to mineral prices once an ORE capship became somewhat normal, or if there were mining vessels with bonuses to specific ore. If the mining community wants more volume per cycle then they are also asking for lower prices. The more minerals on the market, the less mins are worth. Miners feeling like mining is a secondary income is somewhat true, but not by any design of CCP. It's kind of like Emmanuel Wallerstein when he wrote World Systems Analysis; i.e. there is a Core in the world economy. The Core makes the high tech, high profit things like computer chips, or, in Eve's case, t2. The Peripherary, however, is only capable of producing either raw materials or low profit goods like minerals or tech 1 mods. While miners as a whole can't really be compared to the Peripherary because they aren't a sovereign nation, the point is still clear; Raw materials aren't worth as much as manufactured goods. While you may never get into profitable t2 production, it would still be better to vertically integrate one's operations, i.e. use minerals to produce ships rather than selling only minerals through a hierarchy within the corp.
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:07:00 - [77] Well, what really boned miners was the introduction of the Drone alloys. They refine into far too many minerals, and of the high-end variety like Mega/Zyd. That is where mining really tanked. Battleships mining ability coming fairly close to a Covetor is also somewhat full of crap IMHO. I assume they at least train Astrogeology and Mining, but still save on having to go for many other skills forced upon miners in pre-reqs that don't directly benefit mining.
Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Firstly you start by combating the huge amount of blatant macro-mining that goes on ... That's the truth. ISK farming miners are out of control. There are 50 obvious miners in just the few systems I tend to spend most of my time. All day every day, mining. Petitionining them leads to nothing, no action from CCP, "Thanks for reporting this, we'll look into it" ... please.
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:24:00 - [79] Macro-miners only mine the low-ends in empire though basically, right? Therefore that doesn't have any bearing on the reason why Mega/Zyd prices have tanked over the last few months.
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:31:00 - [80] The expansion definitely threw the system for a loop, but I don't think it matters if it's drones dropping alloys or players mining high ends in the new regions. Either way, there is a price drop that everyone has to deal with. The perception that mining isn't on par with ratting is probably somewhat correct now. Pre-kali i would have vehemently disagreed. I think this inequity of income stems from the fact that NPC ratting income isn't affected as much by the market as mining is. Mining income comes from selling minerals and sellers are completely at the mercy of the market. However, NPC bounties are static and faction/officer loot is such a lottery that it's hard to factor in, especially over a whole population (rather than a sample) and over the long term.
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:34:00 - [81] Where is my Mining Pwnmobile with 25 Osprey Drones?! =P
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:50:00 - [82] "5. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. (Stupid Rokh!)" Yeah, it's a travesty that a 160M ISk ship can be almost as effective as a 10M ISK specialised ship. But why is this such an isue for you? I find having my Covetor protected by a tanking Rokh with 8 Miner IIs both effective & profitable. Ups my per-minute take by a good 50%, and I can still keep mining with it while my miner switches to her hauler.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:54:00 - [83] Edited by: Malcanis on 17/03/2007 11:50:59 dupe post pls delete
Kick Rocks	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:12:00 - [84] Edited by: Kick Rocks on 17/03/2007 16:08:52 deleted
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Malcanis "5. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. (Stupid Rokh!)" Yeah, it's a travesty that a 160M ISk ship can be almost as effective as a 10M ISK specialised ship. But why is this such an isue for you? I find having my Covetor protected by a tanking Rokh with 8 Miner IIs both effective & profitable. Ups my per-minute take by a good 50%, and I can still keep mining with it while my miner switches to her hauler. Its a problem because what the hell is the point of specing up to exhumers then? Your BS is almost as good as the second best miner in the game and it can do a myriad of things. The only thing a mining barge can do is mine, respectfully so. A Covetor is 25mil on the market btw. Your BS should not be able to compete. If you want to mine, go all in like a real miner or skill your fighting char into it properly. I dont think its fair that you can invest a minscule amount of training time comparitively and have almost the same results. Thats just bull. Im also glad you have 2 accounts, plenty of people dont. I do not think your the norm, so your situation can not be factored in.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.18 00:44:00 - [86] Originally by: Shinon Asahina Macro-miners only mine the low-ends in empire though basically, right? Therefore that doesn't have any bearing on the reason why Mega/Zyd prices have tanked over the last few months. Because not every miner is a veteran mining in 0.0. Because not every macro miner is an amature mining in empire. With the prices on Trit, Pye, Nox, Isogen as low as they are no ore is even worth considering unless it contains Zyd or Mega. You may as well run level 2 missions. Originally by: Malcanis Yeah, it's a travesty that a 160M ISk ship can be almost as effective as a 10M ISK specialised ship. In that case why is a 600mill mining ship not as good in combat as your battleship? Sarcasm aside, ships have roles, the ability of battleships to mine such large volumes/min has rendered the entire mining barge line obsolete. The only one that can "out-mine" a Rokh is the covetor, even then not by much and sacrificing a huge amount of tanking ability. To top it off it takes approximately three times the time it takes to get yourself into that battleship to get into the covetor. It's basically a case of go for an exhumer or don't bother. All that having been said the Exhumer is an excellent mining ship (hopefully about to crash in price). I don't want more volume/min, I don't want a better vessel, I want the issues of macro mining and drone compounds addressed. Macro miners will take a hit when the belts get moved into the exploration system, but I'm sure they will find a way around it in time.
Qolde Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.18 01:35:00 - [87] Hah! I just read a thread of people in the drones regions complaining that they aren't getting enough money from mining and killing drones. But, I must concur. Mining does suck now.
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.03.18 02:10:00 - [88] yea pretty fun mining is only used to make isk. But they make just about as much if not less than the ratters. Maybe make reproccessing yeild less minerals; maybe 10 percent of its high end minerals, and 70 percent on the low end minerals like trit and pyr.
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.18 04:22:00 - [89] Originally by: Qolde Hah! I just read a thread of people in the drones regions complaining that they aren't getting enough money from mining and killing drones. But, I must concur. Mining does suck now. One of my fixes listed above is to remove the minerals but compensate that by increasing the bounties on them. To be honeest though the people in the drone regions have been completly messed over. I hope they fix those regions, but that has nothing to do with the overall argument being made. Originally by: Nim9i5 yea pretty fun mining is only used to make isk. But they make just about as much if not less than the ratters. Maybe make reproccessing yeild less minerals; maybe 10 percent of its high end minerals, and 70 percent on the low end minerals like trit and pyr. I also suggested this above. Reproccessing is too profitable without any skill investment IMHO. I dont mind it as an alternative to trying to individually sell every item. But traders should have the edge here. If you don't have the skills to put 100+ items up on the market then you should make a little less then those that do. Don't misunderstand me though. I dont think any one profession should be loads better or loads worse then any other, but ratting, missioning, mining, trading, and maybe even processing/reprocessing should be viable professions on their own. Missioning is ok as it is other then its a bit repetative and combat missions seem to be the wasy to go. Ratting in 0.0 is good, anywhere else, not that great. Trading can be awesome, some tools could use some upgrades and im just getting started but I can see how it can rock. Anyways, im getting off topic, the point incase I lost anyone is that mining isnt as fleshed out as I think it could be. The fixes seem simple to me. I hope more people continue to discuss this matter as it seems the squeaky wheel gets the grease here and I intend to be as squeaky as I must.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2007.03.18 11:02:00 - [90] bump thread belongs to the front page.
Carryon	Posted - 2007.03.18 12:49:00 - [91] One item in this discussion that has only been hinted at is that ratters spend a lot more money on thier ships and equipment than miners do, at least in my experience. And when they lose a ship, they lose a lot more isk. A friend of mine just spent like 1.2 bil on a new ship and equipment - I can not imagine every spending that on a mining ship. Also the point has been made that mining in this game, like real life, is really only a sub-profession. How many single miners (all by themselves) in real life have become fabulously rich? To do that you need a big operation with lots of people. I, who am an industrialist, think that with some expansion of skills, you can become quite varied and handy to people in your corp or around you. With mining, manufacturing, researching, scanning, salvaging, and other non-combat skills, you can make quite a bit of money and be an integral part of a community in safe or non-safe space. If I do not make quite as much money as ratters or pvpers, maybe that is not what makes life worth while. By the way, as a manufacturer I love the low Zydrine prices, but I understand what people are saying . And I make money at almost any price, so no worries there. Yes, more in-depth industrial skills would be cool. But I really think CCP set up mining as a "start-up" profession before pvping. Guess they did not see people would enjoy it so much.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.18 13:09:00 - [92] Edited by: Kruugore on 18/03/2007 13:05:31 Miners need a bonus, their work does no harm to a full and freely run economy. Eve's economy will always be fake, so long as it requires people to generate money through NPC kills and missions. This isn't a capitalistic game in reality, because money comes from thin air, it's not a scarce resource. I'd also like the g'damned Strip I blueprint seeded. That's one of the biggest artificial money sinks that peeve me off because it forces 0.0 miners to still be reliant on empire to buy the strips. EVE Vault, A Great Community
Nymos Fimbulvintr	Posted - 2007.03.18 13:11:00 - [93] Originally by: Riley Craven Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. Actually, this is untrue. The key is the types of spawns. I can easily make 30mil or more an hour npcing. The trick is to kill everything bellow 1mil in bounty and any spawn that isnt a tripple bs spawn that meets the 1mil rule. Eventually you get a system full of bs over that amount or more and let me tell you when this happens.... dear god the money comes flying. To answer the op, I have seen estimates of pilots making closer to 60-70mil an hour mining high ends (yes they had to have haulers aka alts) But I think your whine is a bit unwarranted in this case. Most people fail to realize that to make the really big bucks and quickly you NEED more than one account. 6/10 need at least 2 accounts, mining needs a miner and hauler, ratting needs the same. The key differences in mining and ratting are Mining, You get a guarentted set steady income. Mining is not sense intensive (meaning you can easily do other things on the web and mine at the same time) If done properly one does not have to move about much Npcing Fluxuating income Moving around alot some skills are used in pvp (as in gunnery etc) Now heres the thing. Alot of people fail to realize the real benefit of NPCing doesnt come from bounties... it come from mods. First tech 1 non named item refines give you the whole spectrum of mins, making it much easier to build things you need. (BS mods give you a large amount of needed minerals) Second named mods can sell to great affect in empire. Most of my trips to empire hauling 20k of named mods net between 300-600mil depending on what drops were. At most I would say the two fields are on par. The real issue seems to be in their differences than them being unbalanced towards each other. QFT i find it weird that people say they don't loot and isk comes from bounty. you can make much more isk from loot than from bounties grabbing good named mods and reprocess the rest. have a look what XL shield boosters, large guns and 1600 plates refine into. i had very nice stuff even in frigate cans sometimes. this requires an alt in hauler of course because a BS isn't a good looting ship. at least that's how i used to rat in a -.3 system (not even a real good one). if someone else was ratting i just looted the cans that noone wanted and found oodles of good loot. for building stuff in 0.0... that's all you need! get the low end minerals from hauler spawns, add the stuff from reprocessed loot and maybe mine what is missing. or just jump it in in a carrier and you don't have to bother with mining at all. i agree mining needs some more incentives. however, the whole system would have to be completely re-vamped because currently there are large quantities of minerals that don't originate from mining (hauler spawns, reprocessed stuff). i'd rather stick to the system now in place before ccp fubars up the whole market with a shortage or surplus of minerals. btw, ratting isn't ratting, it very much depends on the system. the real good ones are highly contested, no alliance conroling a good constellation will let others rat or mine or run a plex there. most systems spawn the same stuff as low sec most of the time. try ratting in syndicate, even in good systems the spawns are mostly crap. and concerning hostiles, it's not about "watch local and you don't die". yes i agree with that. it's more about lost income because you have to stop ratting and wait until hostiles leave. if someone decides to leave his cov ops alt in system all day you make zero isk the whole day or risk dying. oh, and about ORE capitals: it looks more like people want them to have mining pwnmobiles and solo mine in 0.0 easier. i see the forums full of "zomg my ore capital got ganked" :p --
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.18 13:19:00 - [94] The drone regions are messed up in part because the people reprocessing and selling those compounds have dropped the zydrine and megacyte prices because they didn't have a clue what they were worth (yes, I know the regions have a LOT of other problems but they haven't helped themselves.) I've bought stacks of Zyd for as low as 1k a piece, nice for manufacturing with but if it wasn't for re-sellers the high end market really would have crashed in the first month after the regions came out. As for comparative cost of ships, I'm sorry but the cost of a Rokh t2 fitted for mining doesn't come anywhere near half the price of Hulk, let alone the cost of the fitting which will include a high end Gistii booster if you plan to actually survive any spawns out there. (Yes, whoring this thread I am. Bee in my bonnet it is.)
Nymos Fimbulvintr	Posted - 2007.03.18 14:01:00 - [95] i ran out of space in the above post... @ drone regions: there are no npc stations in the new regions. ccp wanted to help people build industry faster there iirc, by giving them "almost ready to use" minerals instead of having to mine different ores and hauling bulky ore. yes this did mess up the market. @ "gimme more": minerals aren't particularly worhth a lot nowadays even with massive capital ship production and buy orders for one billion units of trit (omg lol) that i see in lonetrek sometimes. mining, not talking about high end setups, doesn't require serious investments neither does one need real skills. everyone can hop in any ship with gun hardpoints, put miners on and mine. many miners don't seem to want to team up and do stuff together so they are faced with the dilemma that a barge can't tank npcs and doesn't have the cargohold of a capital ship. what do you expect will happen if you increase supply by, say, 25%? by adding ore capitals, more drones, whatever people suggested. the market will crash. evil pvpers will be happy because of cheap ships, but minerals will be worthless. you're cannibalizing your own business by doing so. as someone said, produce finished products for better margins, not raw materials. the problem lies probalby in the fact that mining is easily accessible to anyone and most minerals are available in high sec. shiney ore capitals and other stuff will not be limited to you. everyone will have them leading to a downward spiral. there's not enough demand for the supply you add to the market. --
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.20 05:53:00 - [96] Bit of a late reply,but ... on the subject of "Be an Industrialist" The problem is that it requires a lot of time and capital to make any money that way. Most T1 equipment has very low margins, or doesn't move very quickly, even in 0.0 space. Which also predicates that you research the BPOs you will use. Your income is also completely at the mercy of when people decide to buy things on the market then. So there will always be a need for far more miners than producers in EVE.
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.21 00:53:00 - [97] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The drone regions are messed up in part because the people reprocessing and selling those compounds have dropped the zydrine and megacyte prices because they didn't have a clue what they were worth (yes, I know the regions have a LOT of other problems but they haven't helped themselves.) I've bought stacks of Zyd for as low as 1k a piece, nice for manufacturing with but if it wasn't for re-sellers the high end market really would have crashed in the first month after the regions came out. As for comparative cost of ships, I'm sorry but the cost of a Rokh t2 fitted for mining doesn't come anywhere near half the price of Hulk, let alone the cost of the fitting which will include a high end Gistii booster if you plan to actually survive any spawns out there. (Yes, whoring this thread I am. Bee in my bonnet it is.) What this thread isnt about: Cost of ships Crappyness of some random 0. region. I am not concerned with the price of hulks or Rokhs and their T2 fittings. What I want is more bang for my SP. If I have millions of SP dedicated to mining then what I pull in as a miner for my minerals ought to far outweigh anything that some mission runner, ratter, or part time miner who didnt even bother to skill up Bargers or Exhumers can do. Thats the point of this thread.
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.21 01:26:00 - [98] Originally by: Nymos i ran out of space in the above post... @ drone regions: there are no npc stations in the new regions. ccp wanted to help people build industry faster there iirc, by giving them "almost ready to use" minerals instead of having to mine different ores and hauling bulky ore. yes this did mess up the market. @ "gimme more": minerals aren't particularly worhth a lot nowadays even with massive capital ship production and buy orders for one billion units of trit (omg lol) that i see in lonetrek sometimes. mining, not talking about high end setups, doesn't require serious investments neither does one need real skills. everyone can hop in any ship with gun hardpoints, put miners on and mine. many miners don't seem to want to team up and do stuff together so they are faced with the dilemma that a barge can't tank npcs and doesn't have the cargohold of a capital ship. I know, thats what I have been saying. The fact that joe schmoe mission runner having invested SP in only mining and possibly astrogeology can hop in a freaking BS and mine more then the exhumers I speant so much time training up to aquire. No need for for you to repeant what I already said. As for miners not teaming up, that isnt the issue. At all. Originally by: Nymos what do you expect will happen if you increase supply by, say, 25%? by adding ore capitals, more drones, whatever people suggested. the market will crash. evil pvpers will be happy because of cheap ships, but minerals will be worthless. you're cannibalizing your own business by doing so. as someone said, produce finished products for better margins, not raw materials. the problem lies probalby in the fact that mining is easily accessible to anyone and most minerals are available in high sec. shiney ore capitals and other stuff will not be limited to you. everyone will have them leading to a downward spiral. there's not enough demand for the supply you add to the market. I think yor completly misunderstanding what I feel needs to happen. Let me try to simplify everything I have said up to this point. Overall the influx on minerals into the market should be about the same. I am NOT trying to increase it. What I want to happens is for all the other ways that people get minerals to be reduced or at the very least take SOME kind of training to do. The only suggestion I made above in the post that noone appears to have bothered to read that increases the amount of ore miners will get is the one possibly allowing more mining drones to be used since they have nothing to do with combat and wont hurt anything. The ore pulled in by those drones is fairly small anyway. If that option is never added to the game I wont lose any sleep. Again, remove the drone ores, significantly lower the base refine amount ether by making items yield less or by making it harder to get those minerals without a significant investment in reprocessing skills. Take away the ability of NON-barge and NON-exhumer ships to increase the yield of mining lasers by increasing the CPU of mining upgrades then giving a bonus to the Exhumers and Barges which counteracts it. Oh and in case someone is wondering what it takes to be the "best" miner, take a look below. Science Industry Metalurgy Mining Astrogeology Refininig Refinery Efficiency 1 specific mining reprocessing skill for each ore type (16 Total) Ice Harvesting Ice Processing Deep Core Mining Gas Cloud Harvesting Drones Mining Drones Drone Interfacing Spaceship Command (IV) Exhumers Mining Barge So tell me again why we should be ok with getting shafted. Tell me how minimal an investment I am making with my char.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.21 14:24:00 - [99] Originally by: Armin Novastorm What this thread isnt about: Cost of ships Crappyness of some random 0. region. I am not concerned with the price of hulks or Rokhs and their T2 fittings. What I want is more bang for my SP. Armin, it is the fact that you can mine almost as well (and tank far better) in a battleship than an exhumer, and the fact that battleships are far the cheaper that is creating this lack of "bang for your SP" people with little SP investment in mining are able to supply large quantities of minerals, affecting price. In addition the "Crappyness of some random 0. region." is what has truly forced a drop in prices, now people can mine with missiles and guns, again more supply with no greater demand. Prices decrease due to both these things they are the symptoms of the problem, they have everything to do with why your "millions of SP" mean so little these days and everything to do with this thread. The main point of this thread is that mining is becoming a "second place" career in EvE. No one seems to care that our specialised kit costs far more yet mines almost the same as the PvPer's battleship, that macro miners ruin empire mining for our newbies, that you don't even need a mining laser fitted to gain minerals from the environment, and that the prices have dropped to the point that mining is rapidly becoming unprofitable for anyone but macrominers. On a side note, if my exhumer could take down battleships you can bet your buttcheeks something would be done about it because the mining profession would be stepping on the toes of the PvP profession. It just doesn't work the other way around.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.21 14:31:00 - [100] Originally by: Armin Novastorm Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf The drone regions are messed up in part because the people reprocessing and selling those compounds have dropped the zydrine and megacyte prices because they didn't have a clue what they were worth (yes, I know the regions have a LOT of other problems but they haven't helped themselves.) I've bought stacks of Zyd for as low as 1k a piece, nice for manufacturing with but if it wasn't for re-sellers the high end market really would have crashed in the first month after the regions came out. As for comparative cost of ships, I'm sorry but the cost of a Rokh t2 fitted for mining doesn't come anywhere near half the price of Hulk, let alone the cost of the fitting which will include a high end Gistii booster if you plan to actually survive any spawns out there. (Yes, whoring this thread I am. Bee in my bonnet it is.) What this thread isnt about: Cost of ships Crappyness of some random 0. region. I am not concerned with the price of hulks or Rokhs and their T2 fittings. What I want is more bang for my SP. If I have millions of SP dedicated to mining then what I pull in as a miner for my minerals ought to far outweigh anything that some mission runner, ratter, or part time miner who didnt even bother to skill up Bargers or Exhumers can do. Thats the point of this thread. Sad news: SP aren't the be-all and end-all. Now dry your eyes.
sakana Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.21 14:54:00 - [101] Originally by: James Duar The major issue really is that being a good ratter means you also have the skills to be good at PVP. Being a good miner means you also have the skills to, what, refine well? One of these things is vastly more of a focus in EVE then the other. hmmm, i'm not so sure that being a good ratter makes you good at pvp, their really quite different. ------------
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.22 00:39:00 - [102] Originally by: Malcanis Sad news: SP aren't the be-all and end-all. Now dry your eyes. Thanks for the informative and helpful post.
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.22 00:53:00 - [103] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Armin, it is the fact that you can mine almost as well (and tank far better) in a battleship than an exhumer, and the fact that battleships are far the cheaper that is creating this lack of "bang for your SP" people with little SP investment in mining are able to supply large quantities of minerals, affecting price. I agree with the first part of the statement but not the second. The price of said ship isnt all the important, and would be less so [less important that is] if the market was not currently flooded with minerals for sources other then mining. Even if the price of the ship was an issue it isnt something CCP can easily directly affect. I can also guaruntee they wouldnt. We are on the same page with the concern of how much a person can pull in with little investment in mining-centric skills though. Quote: In addition the "Crappyness of some random 0. region." is what has truly forced a drop in prices, now people can mine with missiles and guns, again more supply with no greater demand. The crappyness I was refering to was the apparent (i dont know I have never been there) lack of good roids to mine in that region, no plexes, and no outposts. I thought that was what you were referencing in your post, sorry for the misunderstanding I do understand (read my 2nd to last post above) that the huge influx of drone ore is a problem. I want that mess stomped on. Quote: Prices decrease due to both these things they are the symptoms of the problem, they have everything to do with why your "millions of SP" mean so little these days and everything to do with this thread. The main point of this thread is that mining is becoming a "second place" career in EvE. No one seems to care that our specialised kit costs far more yet mines almost the same as the PvPer's battleship, that macro miners ruin empire mining for our newbies, that you don't even need a mining laser fitted to gain minerals from the environment, and that the prices have dropped to the point that mining is rapidly becoming unprofitable for anyone but macrominers. On a side note, if my exhumer could take down battleships you can bet your buttcheeks something would be done about it because the mining profession would be stepping on the toes of the PvP profession. It just doesn't work the other way around. For the most part we are on the same page, and yes if someone was tanking in a hulk and taking down rats and/or players by the bus load you can believe someone would be on here complaining. Hell even if nothing else were to change, something has to be done about the macrominers. I quit one MMO because of gold farmers and I am hoping I really don't have to make it 2 cause I like this game alot. (No that isnt some lameo threat, it's just the Gods honest truth.)
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.22 12:53:00 - [104] Thanks for your post Armin, nice to know we actually agree with each other and just got the wrong end of the stick. I consider ship price an issue because although I can fly hulk I often find myself mining in a battleship as hulk is simply too expensive (even if the price dropped to 150mill) and too "paper thin" to risk during times of war or just mining in any pirate/PvP heavy area. This leaves me wondering why I bothered training for the exhumers in the first place as I'm sure do many others. When you can use the same ship for PvP, Ratting, and Mining why even bother bringing any other ship to the region? However I don't expect or want a change in battleship prices. I want a change in battleship mining. A nerf would hit the newbies hardest, what is needed is a change to mining ships so that they can provide a similar level of defence (or at least a 0.0 capable level of defence) without resorting to multi-million isk modules. It's only one issue among many, but since you seem to have misunderstood me I have clarified it.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:16:00 - [105] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Thanks for your post Armin, nice to know we actually agree with each other and just got the wrong end of the stick. I consider ship price an issue because although I can fly hulk I often find myself mining in a battleship as hulk is simply too expensive (even if the price dropped to 150mill) and too "paper thin" to risk during times of war or just mining in any pirate/PvP heavy area. This leaves me wondering why I bothered training for the exhumers in the first place as I'm sure do many others. When you can use the same ship for PvP, Ratting, and Mining why even bother bringing any other ship to the region? However I don't expect or want a change in battleship prices. I want a change in battleship mining. A nerf would hit the newbies hardest, what is needed is a change to mining ships so that they can provide a similar level of defence (or at least a 0.0 capable level of defence) without resorting to multi-million isk modules. It's only one issue among many, but since you seem to have misunderstood me I have clarified it. I find Hulks rather safe to use for mining. If you fit a faction shield booster on it, it can tank about any 0.0 spawn, perhaps faction and officer spawns excluded... As for hositles. If you mine in a bit deeper in 0.0 you usually hear about hostiles 5-9 jumps out, so there is plenty of time to bugger off, and having a carrier ratting in the belt where the mining op is taking place usually helps too. Since it can scoop 2 hulks and just jump them to safety, even if you get jumped by a login trap or so. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:55:00 - [106] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Thanks for your post Armin, nice to know we actually agree with each other and just got the wrong end of the stick. I consider ship price an issue because although I can fly hulk I often find myself mining in a battleship as hulk is simply too expensive (even if the price dropped to 150mill) and too "paper thin" to risk during times of war or just mining in any pirate/PvP heavy area. This leaves me wondering why I bothered training for the exhumers in the first place as I'm sure do many others. When you can use the same ship for PvP, Ratting, and Mining why even bother bringing any other ship to the region? However I don't expect or want a change in battleship prices. I want a change in battleship mining. A nerf would hit the newbies hardest, what is needed is a change to mining ships so that they can provide a similar level of defence (or at least a 0.0 capable level of defence) without resorting to multi-million isk modules. It's only one issue among many, but since you seem to have misunderstood me I have clarified it. I find Hulks rather safe to use for mining. If you fit a faction shield booster on it, it can tank about any 0.0 spawn, perhaps faction and officer spawns excluded... As for hositles. If you mine in a bit deeper in 0.0 you usually hear about hostiles 5-9 jumps out, so there is plenty of time to bugger off, and having a carrier ratting in the belt where the mining op is taking place usually helps too. Since it can scoop 2 hulks and just jump them to safety, even if you get jumped by a login trap or so. I couldn't have put it better myself.
Zephyrys Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.22 16:51:00 - [107] Ok lets write this thread down in crayon so the pewpew set can understand... 1. Being able to mine in a battleship at the same lvl or better then a dedicated mining ship needs to be stopped Solution = If it dosen't have a mining bonus.. dont allow miners to be put on. 2. 0.0 Ratting provides as much if not better income then mining alone due to alloy drops. Solution = drasticly lower the drops. This has contributed to the fracked up market and the backseating of the miner profession. Why mine when you can rat and get the same minerals. 3. Lack of cargo hold space for more then 1 cycle of strip miners on the 2nd lvl barges and higher. Solution = Possibilities include bigger secure cans, larger cargo hold, large ORE only cargo hold. 4. Ratting in general can net the ratter ISk via bounties, sellable modules via looting or even mass ammounts of minerals from reprocessing. Solution = Drasticly lower the reprocessing % given to non miners when reprocessing modules. As everyone knows.. the drone regions are broken when the ratters can make more minerals by ratting then the miners can by mining. This is practicly the only income from the drone regions causing a massive influx of alloy based minerals which have driven prices on all other decent 0.0 minerals into the ****ter. Combine the fact that the high end roids in the drone regions have maybe 2 cycles worth of ore in them, further delegates the miners to the backseat. Mineral gain is WAY too easy for non miners and WAY too profitable. All us miners ask is to be put back on par with them as there is not much need to be a miner anymore.. We would be overjoyed by a boost or 2 to the mining profession but what really needs to be done to stabilize the economy is to loew the ability for non miners to get their hands on raw ore. As it is miners are pretty pointless when you can rat and refine or mission and refine all your mineral needs.. those that cannot gain enough minerals from ratting or running can simply buy the excess minerals that ratters and looters flood the market with. -------------- Active Miner improvement Threads = 5 Active Miner improvement Threads with Dev Response = 0
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:53:00 - [108] Edited by: Ansuru Starlancer on 22/03/2007 21:51:21 The long and the short of it is this: Ratting is potentially far superior, but only on days when you have good spawns, no interruptions, and a nice ship. You risk getting blown to smithereens in a very valuable ship. Mining is the most reliably stable income: mine for X hours, get Y isk worth of minerals. Mining barges aren't all that valuable next to a t2 fitted battleship, and you aren't penalized for having multiple people working the same belts(in fact, your productivity increases), which also increases your chance to run away successfully if it hits the fan. edit: Though, yes, if even half of what I've heard about the drone regions is true, mineral drops need severe nerfage.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:28:00 - [109] One thing that drives me up the wall about the Hulk is it's tank. I paid out the ass (500mil) for another 15% yield over the Covetor. The best tank I can get without droping that 15% to 5% is 2 Resists and a Small Booster (faction of otherwise). Being able to Perma tank spawns is 1 thing, being SOL when a Pirate shows up hungry for T2 Strip miners is another. I want to be able to fit a Large Shield Booster on my Hulk. I paid for T2 ship now I want a nice T2 (or better) tank also. ------------------------------------- The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns! Passive Drake For The Win
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:48:00 - [110] Originally by: Ansuru Starlancer Edited by: Ansuru Starlancer on 22/03/2007 21:51:21 The long and the short of it is this: Ratting is potentially far superior, but only on days when you have good spawns, no interruptions, and a nice ship. You risk getting blown to smithereens in a very valuable ship. Mining is the most reliably stable income: mine for X hours, get Y isk worth of minerals. Mining barges aren't all that valuable next to a t2 fitted battleship, and you aren't penalized for having multiple people working the same belts(in fact, your productivity increases), which also increases your chance to run away successfully if it hits the fan. edit: Though, yes, if even half of what I've heard about the drone regions is true, mineral drops need severe nerfage. That is how it "used" to be, except your comparison of price of course. The two were roughly balanced. You could have a good day ratting and make a hell of a lot more, you could have a bad day and get a fair bit less. Thing is now the miners reliably get a lot less than they used to. Imagine it was the other way around... a huge drop in the bounties given from ratting. Then there really would be havoc on the forums. The pity is that life in the new regions is, I hear, hard enough. The minerals don't need nerfing they need replacing (loot, mechanical parts and robotics, salvage, I don't know what would be best). The only way to get hold of minerals from the environment should be mining or reprocessing items made from said minerals. Not NPC loot refining, not NPC compound drops, Not NPC purchased goods refining, I mean whats next? NPC sell orders?

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