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Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.03.16 06:33:00 - [61] Originally by: Laboratus It used to be possible to mine get 50-67M /h by mining crokite with one character, the excact amount depending on skills. On top of that you had to haul, refine, etc etc however. Now, the prices have halved, and you are lucky to get even that 30M/h. Hence, It just is not worth it. Unless you are producing just for yourself and friends. It's easier to get ISK by ratting, plex/mission running or empire pirating. Exploration is a bit more risky, since there are possibilities of getting eq worth 1-1.5B ISK, but they are rare... Agreed. I don't think we'd even be having this conversation 6 months ago, but now the mining/ratting ratio is way out of whack. When factoring in shipping and what-not ratting is more profitable in the short-term, never mind long-term issues such as mining skills which have been devalued. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 07:19:00 - [62] PS: Why does the foreman link for drones STILL not exist yet AFAIK? =D
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.16 11:48:00 - [63] Edited by: heheheh on 16/03/2007 11:44:55 Originally by: Riley Craven Edited by: Riley Craven on 16/03/2007 03:28:55 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour but that would require an officer every hour so, you cant. Must be a noob then, cuse I can and have on several occasions. Officers/commander spawns were only icing on the cake. finding an officer on several occasions is not finding one every hour, every time you rat though is it? you cannot find an officer every hour, everytime you rat. read and comprehend before answering with drivel.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.16 12:02:00 - [64] Edited by: Laboratus on 16/03/2007 11:58:53 Originally by: heheheh finding an officer on several occasions is not finding one every hour, every time you rat though is it? you cannot find an officer every hour, everytime you rat. read and comprehend before answering with drivel. I've found that at least in guristas space, system sec is not so impoetant in DG spawns than the number of ppl in system. I've gotten at best 3 DG spawns in a day in a station system with 50ppl in it and at max 1 a day in a less populated system. Ok, cruiser spawns, but they drop the more valuable DG loot anyways... Also, a corp mate of mine has claimed that they spawn at specific systems after boot... Don't know if he is right, but the amount of DG loot he has would suggest so. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Vayron NovaeDyne Industries Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.03.16 12:16:00 - [65] The problem is and always will be that it is a player run economy. Complain about an imbalance all you want, but I don't see any solutions offered here that could be implemented by a change in some game mechanic. "Another day, another million ISK"
Frances Ducoir Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2007.03.16 12:31:00 - [66] Originally by: RaWBLooD Originally by: Frances Ducoir Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 15/03/2007 12:10:11 I endorse the ops opinion. If mining would have more variety it would be more fun but it's plain boring. things i would like: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for rigs which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that RARE SPAWNS ? this isnt WOW and i sure as heck WOULD NEVER want it to become like what you describe (just like wow) so you have rare spawns in belt ratting (officer and faction) you get rare things in plexes, you can get rare things though exploration and you can even get faction spawns in mission so WHY should there be no rare spawns in roids and wtf has it to do with WoW? if there are rarespawns for the rest of the game why should there be none for mining? heck... there are even "rarespawn" when you pvp. you could ever come across a faction/officer/deadspace fitted enemy. i really don not understand you opinion. mining is boring and rarespawns would spice it up a bit. here is another idea which i got regarding to rare spawns: - RARE spawns in roids... as well as you get faction spawns when ratting there should be rare mineral spawns in roids (diamonds, rubys or whatever). make them rare and make them be the components for RIGS which boost your lasers mining amount or something similar like that - if you mine in highsec or other npc regions you could find a new or rare lifeform (kind of bacteria or fungii) in ice roids, which would boost your standing to research or mining corporations if sold to them -> more variety as well as a new kind of boosting your standings for r&d which is more fun than grinding hauling missions do you see the purpose for there rare spawns? MINING RIGS... which is something which will be implemented surely... soon TM ^^
Friggz	Posted - 2007.03.16 14:06:00 - [67] Ok, lets assume for a moment that your right and ratting does make more money then mining. Theres basicly no way to 'fix' it. The amount of money players make mining can only be adjusted by CCP in one way, and its not particularly a good idea or garenteed to work. You can take my word for it or read the wall of text below. I know what your probably thinking "Just make it easier to mine!" Ok, CCP makes it easier for you to mine. That means CCP makes it easier for everyone to mine. What happens? The amount of minerals on the market increases while the demand remains static. The laws of supply and demand dictate that the prices will then lower because theres more competiton for the same demand. From an economical point of view, ratting and mining are completely different because mining circulates currency already in existance whereas ratting creates new money from outside the system. Basicly Eve's economy works like this: ISK Enters system primarly through ratting and missions ISK circulates the system through player trades, primarly mining and manufactering ISK leaves the system primarly through priacy and alliance wars. Since mining doesn't create extra ISK the amount of money a miner makes from mining is completely reliant on the supply and demand as I said. When you kill a rat its a garenteed payday. When you try to sell minerals its not. Someone has to be out there willing to pay what your asking and have the ISK to pay it. If you took a single isk you got from selling a mineral and traced it back to who owned that isk since its creation you'd eventually trace it back to a mission or npc bounty almost everytime. Maybe you'd have to go back 100 transactions but that isk had to have come from somewhere. Remember, mining can only circulate existing currency, and the existing currency miners make all came from ratting in the first place. What does this mean? Simple: That the amount of money people make from ratting directly effects the amount of money miners can make from mining. They circulate existing currency, therefore the amount of currency in circulation dictates what people are able to pay for minerals. If people don't have money they can't buy minerals. Its that simple. So, we can't make mining easer because it increases supply, we can't reduce the amount ratters make because then people have less money to spend on minerals. Whats left? Well whats left is increasing demand. There are two ways to do this. The first is increase the demand on ships and modules by having more getting blown up. Well that doesn't help miners much, you get more for your minerals but you have higher expenses so it balances out. Funny how everything always balances out, isn't it? Nope, the ONLY way to increase demand that yields extra profitability would be to increase the amount of minerals required to make everything. Take the number and bump it across the board. Now your creating more demand. If your still with me from the first paragraph I said this wasn't a particularly good idea and I mean it. If you did increase the amount of minerals required to make items, you increase the price of minerals, but you also drasticly increase the cost of ships and modules because not only do manufacters need to pay more per mineral they need more of them two. Its a double whammy to manufacters. They would be forced to raise the prices on ships and modules. What does this mean? Basicly that a single ISK wouldn't be worth as much as it is now. If the price of everything you buy goes up 20% that means the currency your using is basicly 20% less valuable then it was before. This would effect everyone. Including miners. So now your getting more ISK but that isn't as valuable as it was before. Sorry but miners are slaves to the econmy they exist in. Theres no reliable way to increase money miners make without completely screwing over the economy.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.16 14:31:00 - [68] Originally by: heheheh Edited by: heheheh on 16/03/2007 11:44:55 Originally by: Riley Craven Edited by: Riley Craven on 16/03/2007 03:28:55 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Akane Miyamoto Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't think anybody makes 30m an hour ratting in battleships. Maybe 20m if you're really fast in a good system. On the other hand, you can easily make 30m an hour mining in a hulk. You can.... If you score an officer spawn within that hour but that would require an officer every hour so, you cant. Must be a noob then, cuse I can and have on several occasions. Officers/commander spawns were only icing on the cake. finding an officer on several occasions is not finding one every hour, every time you rat though is it? you cannot find an officer every hour, everytime you rat. read and comprehend before answering with drivel. Well mister alt tastic maybe you should try reading alittle better. I am saying that officers/commanders are not needed to acheive the income of 30mil per hour ratting. Just because you cant manage it doesnt mean its not possible.
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:53:00 - [69] only thing I wanna say is... Multi chain :) but it only realy works if you got 20 or more belts in a v little used -0.5 or better system.
Fork Boy	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:12:00 - [70] Edited by: Fork Boy on 16/03/2007 18:09:11 Riley, can you please sort your sig out mate? I wish standard barges were a bit more protectible. Even in high sec, the macro hunters are a bit trigger happy, and you are easy prey to an alpha strike if someone wants to grief you. I can't protect against that alpha strike in any way I'm aware of, just clear up the pieces, even if I had 10 battleships on standby. A covertor and 3 strip miners, or a mackinaw with 2 ice miners ... that's a lot of ISK to be invested to get blown away by someone on a whim. Well, it's a lot of ISK to me anyway. You don't even have the ability to get a half decent tank at the expense of something else, like you can with say an Iteron 5 using lows for armour and / or mids for shield at the expense of cargo capacity. Even on the largest standard barge you've got 1 mid, and 2 lows to play with. Even with that said, I still enjoy mining, but wish I could deploy some anti griefer bumping shield or something, to keep the idiots away who always seem to pop up. ================================= A fork is a cold, shiny tool To pierce, tear and ingest. Whoever has the fork in hand Controls the meal of their choice.
Cloora APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2007.03.16 18:43:00 - [71] Edited by: Cloora on 16/03/2007 18:50:22 I didn't read the entire thread but I read the whole first page. My problem with being a miner is that I still HAVE to fight! Unless all I want to do is mine and sell the ore I have to fight NPCs and run missions. This is because if I want to refine without waste I have to have good standings. How do I get good standings? I have to run missions all the way to level 4 and be proficiant at combat. To be sucessful at lvl 4 missions I have to deviate from my skill training and train for combat. Why? Why can I not get standings with some other way that do not cost me skillpoints and time to train for combat. That is just for mining in high sec. I still have to have someone haul for me and if I want to mine in low or nullsec I need protection. People say, "Well get a group EVE isn't a solo game." If that is true then why can a high sec lvl 4 mission runner make plenty of ISK solo, and then go back and salvage said mission and make even more ISK? In fact only the industrialist and the mission runner can be sucessful solo. A miner cannot, we need a hauler AT LEAST. A PvPer isn't going to be very sucessful unless he/she is part of a group. Miners ARE a 2nd class citizen. We should be an equal class. We can make as much ISK as a mission runner if we mine in nullsec but we can't do it solo. In high sec the mission runner has the obvious advantage. PLEASE CCP give miners something better! More skills and barges that can hold some ore for petes sake! And can tank at least as well as the Badgers that haul for me! (Badger Mk II is sufficient) ======================================== Production Assistant of APEX Unlimited I don't want to be forced to Jet Can mine or buy a hauler alt to mine effectivly. BIGGER CARGO HOLDS IN BARGES NOW!
Amphetaminer	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:18:00 - [72] ya the mining part of the game is lacking in so many ways. First you would think a mining barge would be able to take some dmg? things like a covetor wich u fit with 60m+ in modules can be ganked easily so you are never safe anywhere When you are mining in 1 cycle if all ur lasers are done your cargo bay is full so you need to jet can mine (GSC is impossible because you fill it within 1 cycle and moving every 3mins + buying gsc + anchoring them and placing them makes it impossbile to mine efficient) So you jettison your ore whats next: someone in a combat ship will come and transfer your ore to his can. Your in a mining barge you can do nothing to him if you do he will shoot your precious ship to pieces. If you try to reclaim your ore, again you will be shot down. Now people will say you shouldnt play solo.. Ok so you get someone there to defend you. Now somehow you found a person thats crazy enough to just sit there waiting for something to happen hour after hour (i geuss you will also have to pay this person since he could be making much more doing something usefull. Thus meaning you make even less) Now there is mr hauler ore thief. He flies to your can engages warp and just before he warps takes your ores. Now there is nothing you can do against him or your defender friend. So now you will say you need a hauler.. Ok so then you need a hauler a defender + yourself all that need to get payed. Somehow you manage all of this then you still need to do stupid mission to get standings with the station to refine your stuff. Its like saying to a mission runner hey you need to go do mining in order to get the bounty of the ships you shot. I bet if there was a way for players to steal all your loot from missions almost risk free it would get fixed quite fast.. Oh yes did i mention you also cant be in a decent corp or alliance if you want to mine in empire because you will get war dec'd by privateers and they will kill your precious ship with paperthin armor in a second. oh yes how i love the balance..
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.16 19:46:00 - [73] There are ways to make mining more profitable for the honest miner. Firstly you start by combating the huge amount of blatant macro-mining that goes on, these people can mine 23/7 in near total security so they really don't mind undercutting everyone else on the market and forcing mineral prices down, the cheap ships may be nice but it's has made the miners time worth less each passing month. Secondly you can get rid of the high-end minerals in the drone spawns. You should NOT be able to mine with weaponry, in my opinion this is a very poor solution to the isk fountain that is 0.0 ratting as it has lowered the value of zydrine and megacyte a lot due to the added competition. Messing with mineral requirements on BPOs or adding new toys will do nothing to fix the prices. The only thing that will is removing the systems that encourage people to sell minerals for a lot less that they're worth.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.03.17 01:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Secondly you can get rid of the high-end minerals in the drone spawns. You should NOT be able to mine with weaponry, in my opinion this is a very poor solution to the isk fountain that is 0.0 ratting as it has lowered the value of zydrine and megacyte a lot due to the added competition. That's pretty much the crux of the issue. Something in Kali killed mining(more than likely the drones), CCP needs to fix it. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.17 02:01:00 - [75] Here are my fixes, they probably are not too well thought out, so if you want to poke holes at least do so respectfully: 1. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. 2. Refining needs to be more specialized. You gave us 3 major refining skills and a minor one for each ore but in high sec you barely need any of them to refine effectivly? What kind of crap is that? 3. Maybe allow more then 5 mining drones out with a module. For instance, make a low slot module that increases the number of mining drones you can launch by 2. Make it a "mining upgrade" and raise the CPU reqs of mining upgrades to the same insane levels as strip miners. Then give barges and exhumers a reduction on that upgrade. This gives miners the option of using drones, or just upgrading the mining output of lasers. Gives a little variety. 4. Reduce the amount of minerals gained from reprocessing items, or make it harder to get those insane amounts of minerals with out some very good reprocessing skills. 5. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. (Stupid Rokh!) 6. Remove the stupid drone ore. Seriously? Where does that stuff come from? Why cant we mine it? Give the drones a bounty to make the ratters/mission runners happy. 7. Please please please! Fix mining missions. Here is one idea of how to do it. The mission takes you to a gate, that gate leads to a drone infested area that has some npc's fighting them off for you. You have to mine the roids before the droids overcome the defenders. So for harder missions you might need more then one miner to get the ore out, or maybe some defenders of your own, or a bigger ship. Talk about excitement! Just get the freaking kill missions out of the mining angents. Give me a few days I might be able to come up with some more. The trick is making it so that the player cannot just buy the ore on the market, he/she has to activly mine it. Another option is making it not cost effective to do so. I mean the goal of missions is to make it so that they take less ore from you (for miners anyways) so the standing is more important the the cash 8. Make it so that you can make BPC's from the Hulk BPO's. I am not clear on the problem but I am told it was due to the BPC copy time. 9. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. I realize 1,5,and 9 are the same. But seriously, this is just wrong. I am pretty sure its the bulk of what the OP was trying to get at in her origional post. Let me know what you think... please be constructive!
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.03.17 10:36:00 - [76] i'd love to see what would happen to mineral prices once an ORE capship became somewhat normal, or if there were mining vessels with bonuses to specific ore. If the mining community wants more volume per cycle then they are also asking for lower prices. The more minerals on the market, the less mins are worth. Miners feeling like mining is a secondary income is somewhat true, but not by any design of CCP. It's kind of like Emmanuel Wallerstein when he wrote World Systems Analysis; i.e. there is a Core in the world economy. The Core makes the high tech, high profit things like computer chips, or, in Eve's case, t2. The Peripherary, however, is only capable of producing either raw materials or low profit goods like minerals or tech 1 mods. While miners as a whole can't really be compared to the Peripherary because they aren't a sovereign nation, the point is still clear; Raw materials aren't worth as much as manufactured goods. While you may never get into profitable t2 production, it would still be better to vertically integrate one's operations, i.e. use minerals to produce ships rather than selling only minerals through a hierarchy within the corp.
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:07:00 - [77] Well, what really boned miners was the introduction of the Drone alloys. They refine into far too many minerals, and of the high-end variety like Mega/Zyd. That is where mining really tanked. Battleships mining ability coming fairly close to a Covetor is also somewhat full of crap IMHO. I assume they at least train Astrogeology and Mining, but still save on having to go for many other skills forced upon miners in pre-reqs that don't directly benefit mining.
Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:15:00 - [78] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Firstly you start by combating the huge amount of blatant macro-mining that goes on ... That's the truth. ISK farming miners are out of control. There are 50 obvious miners in just the few systems I tend to spend most of my time. All day every day, mining. Petitionining them leads to nothing, no action from CCP, "Thanks for reporting this, we'll look into it" ... please.
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:24:00 - [79] Macro-miners only mine the low-ends in empire though basically, right? Therefore that doesn't have any bearing on the reason why Mega/Zyd prices have tanked over the last few months.
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:31:00 - [80] The expansion definitely threw the system for a loop, but I don't think it matters if it's drones dropping alloys or players mining high ends in the new regions. Either way, there is a price drop that everyone has to deal with. The perception that mining isn't on par with ratting is probably somewhat correct now. Pre-kali i would have vehemently disagreed. I think this inequity of income stems from the fact that NPC ratting income isn't affected as much by the market as mining is. Mining income comes from selling minerals and sellers are completely at the mercy of the market. However, NPC bounties are static and faction/officer loot is such a lottery that it's hard to factor in, especially over a whole population (rather than a sample) and over the long term.
Shinon Asahina Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:34:00 - [81] Where is my Mining Pwnmobile with 25 Osprey Drones?! =P
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:50:00 - [82] "5. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. (Stupid Rokh!)" Yeah, it's a travesty that a 160M ISk ship can be almost as effective as a 10M ISK specialised ship. But why is this such an isue for you? I find having my Covetor protected by a tanking Rokh with 8 Miner IIs both effective & profitable. Ups my per-minute take by a good 50%, and I can still keep mining with it while my miner switches to her hauler.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:54:00 - [83] Edited by: Malcanis on 17/03/2007 11:50:59 dupe post pls delete
Kick Rocks	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:12:00 - [84] Edited by: Kick Rocks on 17/03/2007 16:08:52 deleted
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.17 16:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Malcanis "5. No BS, NONE should come anywhere near my barge or exhumer in pulling in ore. PERIOD. Not even the lowest level barge. (Stupid Rokh!)" Yeah, it's a travesty that a 160M ISk ship can be almost as effective as a 10M ISK specialised ship. But why is this such an isue for you? I find having my Covetor protected by a tanking Rokh with 8 Miner IIs both effective & profitable. Ups my per-minute take by a good 50%, and I can still keep mining with it while my miner switches to her hauler. Its a problem because what the hell is the point of specing up to exhumers then? Your BS is almost as good as the second best miner in the game and it can do a myriad of things. The only thing a mining barge can do is mine, respectfully so. A Covetor is 25mil on the market btw. Your BS should not be able to compete. If you want to mine, go all in like a real miner or skill your fighting char into it properly. I dont think its fair that you can invest a minscule amount of training time comparitively and have almost the same results. Thats just bull. Im also glad you have 2 accounts, plenty of people dont. I do not think your the norm, so your situation can not be factored in.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.03.18 00:44:00 - [86] Originally by: Shinon Asahina Macro-miners only mine the low-ends in empire though basically, right? Therefore that doesn't have any bearing on the reason why Mega/Zyd prices have tanked over the last few months. Because not every miner is a veteran mining in 0.0. Because not every macro miner is an amature mining in empire. With the prices on Trit, Pye, Nox, Isogen as low as they are no ore is even worth considering unless it contains Zyd or Mega. You may as well run level 2 missions. Originally by: Malcanis Yeah, it's a travesty that a 160M ISk ship can be almost as effective as a 10M ISK specialised ship. In that case why is a 600mill mining ship not as good in combat as your battleship? Sarcasm aside, ships have roles, the ability of battleships to mine such large volumes/min has rendered the entire mining barge line obsolete. The only one that can "out-mine" a Rokh is the covetor, even then not by much and sacrificing a huge amount of tanking ability. To top it off it takes approximately three times the time it takes to get yourself into that battleship to get into the covetor. It's basically a case of go for an exhumer or don't bother. All that having been said the Exhumer is an excellent mining ship (hopefully about to crash in price). I don't want more volume/min, I don't want a better vessel, I want the issues of macro mining and drone compounds addressed. Macro miners will take a hit when the belts get moved into the exploration system, but I'm sure they will find a way around it in time.
Qolde Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.18 01:35:00 - [87] Hah! I just read a thread of people in the drones regions complaining that they aren't getting enough money from mining and killing drones. But, I must concur. Mining does suck now.
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.03.18 02:10:00 - [88] yea pretty fun mining is only used to make isk. But they make just about as much if not less than the ratters. Maybe make reproccessing yeild less minerals; maybe 10 percent of its high end minerals, and 70 percent on the low end minerals like trit and pyr.
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.18 04:22:00 - [89] Originally by: Qolde Hah! I just read a thread of people in the drones regions complaining that they aren't getting enough money from mining and killing drones. But, I must concur. Mining does suck now. One of my fixes listed above is to remove the minerals but compensate that by increasing the bounties on them. To be honeest though the people in the drone regions have been completly messed over. I hope they fix those regions, but that has nothing to do with the overall argument being made. Originally by: Nim9i5 yea pretty fun mining is only used to make isk. But they make just about as much if not less than the ratters. Maybe make reproccessing yeild less minerals; maybe 10 percent of its high end minerals, and 70 percent on the low end minerals like trit and pyr. I also suggested this above. Reproccessing is too profitable without any skill investment IMHO. I dont mind it as an alternative to trying to individually sell every item. But traders should have the edge here. If you don't have the skills to put 100+ items up on the market then you should make a little less then those that do. Don't misunderstand me though. I dont think any one profession should be loads better or loads worse then any other, but ratting, missioning, mining, trading, and maybe even processing/reprocessing should be viable professions on their own. Missioning is ok as it is other then its a bit repetative and combat missions seem to be the wasy to go. Ratting in 0.0 is good, anywhere else, not that great. Trading can be awesome, some tools could use some upgrades and im just getting started but I can see how it can rock. Anyways, im getting off topic, the point incase I lost anyone is that mining isnt as fleshed out as I think it could be. The fixes seem simple to me. I hope more people continue to discuss this matter as it seems the squeaky wheel gets the grease here and I intend to be as squeaky as I must.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2007.03.18 11:02:00 - [90] bump thread belongs to the front page.

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