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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 07:48:00 - [31] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 15/03/2007 13:57:59 Originally by: Arquiteto The best fleet BS is the tempest without a doubt. Best alpha strike and when in fleets the alpha strike is what matters. T2 1400mm FTW \o/ I would probebly say the Abaddon, because it has higher alpha and dps than a temptest, but it has major cap problems and the seriously good abaddon fitouts have to use some expensive rigs. Actualy, running the numbers you can do some interesting things... With absoulty maxed skills, AWU 5 + Energy Rigs 5 Tachyon Beam Laser II x 8 Sensor Booster II x 2, Tracking Computer II x 2 Tracking Enhancer II x 1, DCII x 1, HSII x 3, RCUII x II 3 x Energy Capacitor use Rigs. Cap use becomes 4.9 guns equiv Cap use on a Tachy Geddon is 4.6 guns Equiv 6% more cap use than the Geddon for A bunch more alpha and a tad bit more DPS. And more HP. Last i checked cap use rigs were 15m isk. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.16 08:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 16/03/2007 08:01:52 Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 15/03/2007 13:57:59 Originally by: Arquiteto The best fleet BS is the tempest without a doubt. Best alpha strike and when in fleets the alpha strike is what matters. T2 1400mm FTW \o/ I would probebly say the Abaddon, because it has higher alpha and dps than a temptest, but it has major cap problems and the seriously good abaddon fitouts have to use some expensive rigs. Actualy, running the numbers you can do some interesting things... With absoulty maxed skills, AWU 5 + Energy Rigs 5 Tachyon Beam Laser II x 8 Sensor Booster II x 2, Tracking Computer II x 2 Tracking Enhancer II x 1, DCII x 1, HSII x 3, RCUII x II 3 x Energy Capacitor use Rigs. Cap use becomes 4.9 guns equiv Cap use on a Tachy Geddon is 4.6 guns Equiv 6% more cap use than the Geddon for A bunch more alpha and a tad bit more DPS. And more HP. Last i checked cap use rigs were 15m isk. ed: I still hate it. You will die with that setup to the first large bubble/dictor bubble. The extra resists and the extra HP won't help you at all. -------------------------------------------------- Always look on the bright side of life. :)
Phish1 Liberty Forces Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.16 08:56:00 - [33] i like the phoon for sniping, u allmsot never get called primary =D and that drone bay allows for lots of anti-tackler support as well as some haevy/sniper drones. 4 1400mm howie IIs, 4 cruise launchers 2 SB II, tracking comp, whatever. 3 gyro IIs, 3 BCU IIs, RCU/MAR
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 09:51:00 - [34] There is a reason you dont get called primary in a phoon... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.16 10:08:00 - [35] Personally I fly a T2 fitted Rokh and I find it works out pretty good since I can sit outside most other weapons range, and if I do get hit I have a pretty good passive HP buffer. (or injector fed active tank if I wish) With the passive tank it survives doomsdays as well. However, if you want more damage and dont care about the extra range/tank on the Rokh I would say the Hyperion looks really good. Not much tank at all but it will outdamage the Megathron and dish out about ~400dps at 190Km. (compared to the ~300 dps at 235-250Km from a Rokh) I dont have much experience with the Minmatar and Amarr ships, so Ill leave those for someone else to comment on. Regards /Doxs After 9 months of being a "!" face, I now discover that Im butt ugly instead...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 10:13:00 - [36] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 16/03/2007 08:40:22 [whine] You know, the mere fact that the abaddon can push out more alpha than the tempest just goes to show how much projectiles need help on the battleship level. On the abaddon, tachyons: track better than 1400's on a tempest, have more alpha than 1400's on a tempest, and have more range than 1400's on a tempest. The only thing 1400's have going for them over tachs is the lack of energy usage. Of course, 1400's small clip size also causes them to reload frequently, cutting significantly into their DPS. [/whine] Bah. I don't even know why I'm typing this - it's never going to get fixed. See my sig. Your sig must refer to everyone else who ought to be training matari... 1400 = 7.245 dmg mod Tach = 5.4 dmg mod Abaddon w/ tachs: 5.4 x 1.25 x 8 = 54 Tempest w/ 1400 7.245 x 1.25 x 6 = 54.3375 Maelstrom w/ 1400 7.245 x 8 = 57.96 ----------- The bolded numbers are LARGER than the italicized number. The Abaddon does come close to the alpha of the Maelstrom or the Tempest. In order to do that, it needs 2 RCUs and either max fitting skills[and rig skills] and 3 rigs, or an entire logistics crew dedicated to keep him firing[An Abaddon uses ammo at a rate of 80 times faster than a Maelstrom uses ammo!] and will still be dependant on the cap charger keeping his guns going. With 2 fitting mods this leaves the Abaddon[even at max skills] at a slot layout of 8/4/5 for the rigged version and 8/3/5 for the injected version. This gives us just enough space for 2 sensor boosters, two tracking computers, a tracking enhancer, damage control and three damage mods[bare minimum in order to snipe]. And 2 sensor booster, 1 tracking computer, and either two tracking computers and 3 damage mods or 1 tc, 1 DC and 3 damage mods. Which drops range below the tempest/maelstrom or drops a 150% boost to effective structure hit points. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 10:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Setana Manoro Originally by: Goumindong Actualy, running the numbers you can do some interesting things... With absoulty maxed skills, AWU 5 + Energy Rigs 5 Tachyon Beam Laser II x 8 Sensor Booster II x 2, Tracking Computer II x 2 Tracking Enhancer II x 1, DCII x 1, HSII x 3, RCUII x II 3 x Energy Capacitor use Rigs. Cap use becomes 4.9 guns equiv Cap use on a Tachy Geddon is 4.6 guns Equiv 6% more cap use than the Geddon for A bunch more alpha and a tad bit more DPS. And more HP. Last i checked cap use rigs were 15m isk. ed: I still hate it. You will die with that setup to the first large bubble/dictor bubble. The extra resists and the extra HP won't help you at all. Its a fleet setup sister. Jumping into large bubble camps is to be expected. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.16 10:52:00 - [38] I think she's referring to: - fleet jumps into dictor/large bubble - fleet uses MWD to get out of bubble Will cause some losses, of cource.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.16 11:24:00 - [39] For rail snipers I'll pick a megathron. You can sneak in a MWD without trashing the DPS and/or effective range easy enough.
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.16 14:36:00 - [40] Oh no! Off the frontpage! D:
Almarez	Posted - 2007.03.16 14:44:00 - [41] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 16/03/2007 08:40:22 [whine] You know, the mere fact that the abaddon can push out more alpha than the tempest just goes to show how much projectiles need help on the battleship level. On the abaddon, tachyons: track better than 1400's on a tempest, have more alpha than 1400's on a tempest, and have more range than 1400's on a tempest. The only thing 1400's have going for them over tachs is the lack of energy usage. Of course, 1400's small clip size also causes them to reload frequently, cutting significantly into their DPS. [/whine] Bah. I don't even know why I'm typing this - it's never going to get fixed. See my sig. Your sig must refer to everyone else who ought to be training matari... 1400 = 7.245 dmg mod Tach = 5.4 dmg mod Abaddon w/ tachs: 5.4 x 1.25 x 8 = 54 Tempest w/ 1400 7.245 x 1.25 x 6 = 54.3375 Maelstrom w/ 1400 7.245 x 8 = 57.96 ----------- The bolded numbers are LARGER than the italicized number. The Abaddon does come close to the alpha of the Maelstrom or the Tempest. In order to do that, it needs 2 RCUs and either max fitting skills[and rig skills] and 3 rigs, or an entire logistics crew dedicated to keep him firing[An Abaddon uses ammo at a rate of 80 times faster than a Maelstrom uses ammo!] and will still be dependant on the cap charger keeping his guns going. With 2 fitting mods this leaves the Abaddon[even at max skills] at a slot layout of 8/4/5 for the rigged version and 8/3/5 for the injected version. This gives us just enough space for 2 sensor boosters, two tracking computers, a tracking enhancer, damage control and three damage mods[bare minimum in order to snipe]. And 2 sensor booster, 1 tracking computer, and either two tracking computers and 3 damage mods or 1 tc, 1 DC and 3 damage mods. Which drops range below the tempest/maelstrom or drops a 150% boost to effective structure hit points. Goum you lost me. The Tach has a base damage modifier of 5.4 but it is significantly higher than that when you take the Abaddon's damage bonus into account.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.16 15:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Goumindong on 16/03/2007 14:59:42 Originally by: Almarez Goum you lost me. The Tach has a base damage modifier of 5.4 but it is significantly higher than that when you take the Abaddon's damage bonus into account. Yes. Note the numbers 5.4[base damage modififer of Tachyon II] x 1.25[damage bonus] x 8[number of turrets] = 54[base alpha modifier] Compared with: the tempest 7.245[Base damage modifier of 1400] x 1.25[Damage bonus] x 6[number of turrets] = 54.3375 [Base alpha modifier] And the Maelstrom 7.245[Base damage modifier of 1400] x 8[number of turrets] = 57.96[Base Alpha Modifier] The Tempest and Maelstrom are both higher in alpha since the ammo that will be used will be doing the same damage[in a fleet at least, the Abaddon will likly do more Alpha with multifrequeny than the Tempest or Maelstrom will with Quake[due to falloff, quake remains usefull and more damaging than other options out to about multifrequency range, so we are assuming MF range since gleam/quake optimal is so ridiculously short] Something to note: The Tempest will always out-alpha the Abaddon so long as skills are equal in both characters gunnery and ship skills. The Maelstrom will always generate the highest alpha, regardless of ship skill its alpha does not go down like the Tempest and the Abaddon. Originally by: Aramendel I think she's referring to: - fleet jumps into dictor/large bubble - fleet uses MWD to get out of bubble Will cause some losses, of cource. Ed: As far as i can reasonably tell, no Amarr sniping setup reasonably sticks on MWDs[I.E. without being utterly outperformed by another races sniper more than usual] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Omatje Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.16 15:16:00 - [43] From BS lvl 4 and over, Tempest will gives you most bang for your buck. It is surely not the best BS, but it can perform various roles quite well. So unless you are one of few people who are only after 1-1's in Eve i would go for a Tempest. got no cool sig
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.16 17:07:00 - [44] Oh, a few things to add to my original post. Although the mega and hyperion seem to be the best for long range fleets, the tempest and maelstrom are so much more veratile that they almost end up being the best. In modern fleet combat, you frequently have to mwd out of a bubble. For that nothing compares with the tempest. In modern fleet combat, you frequentlly get doomsdayed. Nothing handles this better than a maelstrom. The maelstrom can fit a big passive tank, still have a mwd, an still have enough cap to run all its guns. Its slow to get out of bubbles, but so are all the t3 bs's, and unlike the other t3 bs's it will actually still be able to fire all its guns after mwd'ing 20km. Shamis
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.16 22:48:00 - [45] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/03/2007 22:45:28 Originally by: Goumindong Ed: As far as i can reasonably tell, no Amarr sniping setup reasonably sticks on MWDs[I.E. without being utterly outperformed by another races sniper more than usual] Thats till you relise that 15% cap rigs are crazy when you could use a powergrid rigs and fit in a cheap ass beta cap realay (24% cap) insted of a RCU........ I automatically disregard any Abaddon setups that have cap rigs in them for fleet battles. It just makes no sense. -- In Internet Explorer, You keep tabs on your browser. In Soviet Russia, browser keeps tabs on you
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2007.03.16 23:25:00 - [46] Seconding the Tempest on grounds of alpha strike capability vs cost. An auto-Tempest is also a pretty formidable ship in smaller gangs, too. Added bonus: it only uses 6 turrets, so you don't have to buy as many wildly overpriced t2 large guns! ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Clavius XIV Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.16 23:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Lord WarATron Thats till you relise that 15% cap rigs are crazy when you could use a powergrid rigs and fit in a cheap ass beta cap realay (24% cap) insted of a RCU........ I automatically disregard any Abaddon setups that have cap rigs in them for fleet battles. It just makes no sense. Hmm... If you go with 2x beta relays, 1x te, 3x hs, 1x dc along with 2 pg rig and 1 energy discharge rig you end up regenerating 36 cap/sec and using around 73 cap/sec, a shortfall of ~37 cap/sec. If you replace the beta relays with rcu ii and fit 3 enegy discharge rigs you regen 20 cap/sec and use 54 cap/sec, a shortfall of ~34 cap/sec. Add to that the fact that you can build about 5 energy discharge rigs for the materials of one power grid rig, and the choice seems to strongly favor energy discharge rigs + rcu on Abaddon.
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.17 01:22:00 - [48] So a tempest seems like a good choice so far (I like minnie ships even though, I have only trained caldari up yet). However...Do you need T2 guns to be worth anything in pvp on a tempest? Since that could take a loooooong while to train for a char with 3.4 mill SP
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.17 02:16:00 - [49] Originally by: Clavius XIV Originally by: Lord WarATron Thats till you relise that 15% cap rigs are crazy when you could use a powergrid rigs and fit in a cheap ass beta cap realay (24% cap) insted of a RCU........ I automatically disregard any Abaddon setups that have cap rigs in them for fleet battles. It just makes no sense. Hmm... If you go with 2x beta relays, 1x te, 3x hs, 1x dc along with 2 pg rig and 1 energy discharge rig you end up regenerating 36 cap/sec and using around 73 cap/sec, a shortfall of ~37 cap/sec. If you replace the beta relays with rcu ii and fit 3 enegy discharge rigs you regen 20 cap/sec and use 54 cap/sec, a shortfall of ~34 cap/sec. Add to that the fact that you can build about 5 energy discharge rigs for the materials of one power grid rig, and the choice seems to strongly favor energy discharge rigs + rcu on Abaddon. The lower overall cap use on the guns as well results in a smaller cap shortfall when not at peak recharge. This means that your cap should hold much longer than the 3 cap/second difference suggests. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.17 04:06:00 - [50] bedtime bump Would like more opinions and an answer to my questions :D (yes I bump my threads too much )
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.17 09:13:00 - [51] T2 guns are not an option, but a requirement for fleet setups. Exept on the rokh because it can reach sniper ranges with t1 guns, but a t1 eokh will do very low damage.
Lucian Alucard Caldari Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.03.17 09:52:00 - [52] Amar take ALOT of work to get as good if not better then the Temp in fleet fights,first off once you get past somethings shields with lasers I don't care how much dps a geddon or abbadon do they are still going to run into at least a 60% Em resistance and a 32% Therm resistance, more so if the guy put a Damage Control II or IFFA on. The real truth is simple solo each ship the rohk,temp,geddon,abb,meg,mael all have certain flaws but if you put a geddon next to a tempest in a fleet fight i will tell you this as soon as the geddon cuts through the shields of his target like a hot knife through butter,that target is dying quickly because his wingman ((The Temp)) is sending him on a one way trip to hell. Take your pick on what you want to do in a fleet fight damage wise either its Fire Support or its Primary Damage Dealing. Amar exceed at Fire support role and minmatar do great as primary damage dealers due to their overwhelming Alpha. The Gallente/Caldari will strip sheilds quicker then the Minmatar but not as Fast as the Amar and they won't punch through armor as easily as the minmatar. So your really a fence sitter in this one your still useful as an either or option your just not UBER in one role or the other,plus really only the Meg is as effective in a fleet fight as it is in a small ganksquad, tho Ac Temps are pretty frickin' sweet once you have the skills and isk to kit them right,they just won't handle the same kind of abuse as the Meg as well as dealing titanic damage. So......if you want a dedicated fleet ship I would say Tempest, if you want to use it for more then that a Meg is the way to go,the rest aren't bad they are just less useful without being surround by lots of buddies.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:30:00 - [53] if youre starting up a fresh character i would suggest you either go amarr or gallente. Those 2 races are more focussed in their shiplineout and hence you will get quicker results for ALL your racial ships while training. Amarr basically need only gunnery skills and some droneskills. Gallente basically need only gunnery skills and droneskills. Minmatar need ontop of what you need for both above races Shieldtanking, Missiles and more navigation skills. Caldari need both missile and gunnery skills but are also the most flexible of all races. Its a tough call if you start a new character but seeing the recent changes i would say go Caldari if you always want to be on the bright side of life and aim more to pve. Go Gallente if you want to go pvp and get results rather quickly (this also opens the possibility to crosstrain caldari sniping ships with minaml efford since you have the gunnery skills already in place and just need the shipskills themself). If you want quick results aim to train gallente for the longrun and train hybrids + caldari shipskills till bs now so u can use the rokh as its the best and only real t1 fleetsniper.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.17 11:44:00 - [54] Originally by: Kcel Chim if youre starting up a fresh character i would suggest you either go amarr or gallente. Those 2 races are more focussed in their shiplineout and hence you will get quicker results for ALL your racial ships while training. Amarr basically need only gunnery skills and some droneskills. Gallente basically need only gunnery skills and droneskills. Minmatar need ontop of what you need for both above races Shieldtanking, Missiles and more navigation skills. Caldari need both missile and gunnery skills but are also the most flexible of all races. Its a tough call if you start a new character but seeing the recent changes i would say go Caldari if you always want to be on the bright side of life and aim more to pve. Go Gallente if you want to go pvp and get results rather quickly (this also opens the possibility to crosstrain caldari sniping ships with minaml efford since you have the gunnery skills already in place and just need the shipskills themself). If you want quick results aim to train gallente for the longrun and train hybrids + caldari shipskills till bs now so u can use the rokh as its the best and only real t1 fleetsniper. If your goal is fleet bs, you need as much shield tank on minmatar as on amarr ships. However, you need much much more skills for amarr to fit&fire its guns than minmatar. Problem is that everyone who is starting new char is completely ignoring BS for next 12 months unless it's caldari. -------- Cruors - dark blood frigs for collectors
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.17 12:51:00 - [55] Originally by: Kcel Chim if youre starting up a fresh character i would suggest you either go amarr or gallente. Those 2 races are more focussed in their shiplineout and hence you will get quicker results for ALL your racial ships while training. Amarr basically need only gunnery skills and some droneskills. Gallente basically need only gunnery skills and droneskills. Minmatar need ontop of what you need for both above races Shieldtanking, Missiles and more navigation skills. Caldari need both missile and gunnery skills but are also the most flexible of all races. Its a tough call if you start a new character but seeing the recent changes i would say go Caldari if you always want to be on the bright side of life and aim more to pve. Go Gallente if you want to go pvp and get results rather quickly (this also opens the possibility to crosstrain caldari sniping ships with minaml efford since you have the gunnery skills already in place and just need the shipskills themself). If you want quick results aim to train gallente for the longrun and train hybrids + caldari shipskills till bs now so u can use the rokh as its the best and only real t1 fleetsniper. I'm not starting up a new char. This one (my first) already got 3.3 mill SP and im training for intys, as I stated in the OP. I also got Caldari BS to 3 already, but no gunnery skills whatsoever. Atm I'm kinda splitted between what to do after I've got my crow trained up. So far I like caldari and minmatar (and amarr to a lesser extent, but they are apparantly gimped), I dont like gallente at all though >_>
mama guru Gallente Friendship 7 Corporation YouWhat	Posted - 2007.03.17 15:02:00 - [56] 1. Tempest 2. Scorpion 3. Armageddon These are the cornerstones of any respectable pvp fleet with apropriate long range setups. The geddon can ofcourse be an apoc or an abbadon. But i prefer the geddon as it is the most cost effective of the amarr bs's. The tempest is simple awsome, im gonna train for one some day. -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE- EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Rooker Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.03.17 15:53:00 - [57] My personal goal is to get T2 425's throwing Spike on my Mega. A big fight in 0.0 is likely to take place at ~150K, so you'll have to sacrifice some stuff to get that range. But most fights are going to be closer to 0 - 40KM and a Mega firing Antimatter or Thorium is extremely dangerous. That's also drone control range and a Mega can launch 5 Ogres. I wouldn't mind trying a Rokh, but can't be assed to train Caldari atm. It has insane range and doesn't lose tank by fitting magstabs, so I don't know how it does damage-wise compared to a Mega. Just be aware that the first ship to be called as primary is going to be any Scorpion, followed by any Raven. ~Nobody~ likes to be jammed, so the jamming ships die first. -- Inertial Stabilizers and Nanofibers - The new Warp Core Stab. Carebears can PvP again \o/ --
Phish1 Liberty Forces Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:00:00 - [58] if they are all snipers you are facing you may as well go with close range deamons and get a cov ops pilot to place u dead on them, pop a dictor bubble, win.
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.03.17 17:41:00 - [59] I personally think the rokh is the ultimate fleet ship.
Kassad II	Posted - 2007.03.18 02:30:00 - [60] bump

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