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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26843
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Posted - 2016.09.16 17:02:26 -
[31] - Quote
Most of the concern is that children and teens are being encouraged to gamble, yet the powers that be in the UK do nothing about the constant stream of gambling adverts that invade every home through the TV after 9PM, when many teens, and indeed some children, are still watching.
Personally I think gambling ads on should go the same way as smoking ads, be banned altogether.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
824
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Posted - 2016.09.16 17:08:54 -
[32] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Most of the concern is that children and teens are being encouraged to gamble, yet the powers that be in the UK do nothing about the constant stream of gambling adverts that invade every home through the TV after 9PM, when many teens, and indeed some children, are still watching.
Personally I think gambling ads on should go the same way as smoking ads, be banned altogether.
The same could be said for Alchohol or any other addiction-causing product (be it a physical item or an activity like gambling).
The primary difference being that if the child steals their parent's credit card and shows up at the gambling venues being advertised on television they will be sent back home and not allowed to actually participate. Where in online/video game gambling they will be welcomed with open arms as long as the credit card works.
edit: The fact that this is so hard to enforce on a case-by-case basis is in fact one of the primary reasons that *unregulated* gambling is just declared illegal, no questions asked. (though not the *only* reason)
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26844
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Posted - 2016.09.16 17:20:41 -
[33] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Most of the concern is that children and teens are being encouraged to gamble, yet the powers that be in the UK do nothing about the constant stream of gambling adverts that invade every home through the TV after 9PM, when many teens, and indeed some children, are still watching.
Personally I think gambling ads on should go the same way as smoking ads, be banned altogether. The same could be said for Alchohol or any other addiction-causing product (be it a physical item or an activity like gambling). The primary difference being that if the child steals their parent's credit card and shows up at the gambling venues being advertised on television they will be sent back home and not allowed to actually participate. Where in online/video game gambling they will be welcomed with open arms as long as the credit card works. edit: The fact that this is so hard to enforce on a case-by-case basis is in fact one of the primary reasons that *unregulated* gambling is just declared illegal, no questions asked. (though not the *only* reason) Most of the advertising spam for gambling that comes through the TV in the UK is for online gambling via apps, not physical premises where it's obvious that a person is underage and not allowed to participate.
The only safeguard against the apps being used by underage gamblers is probably a tickbox, saying "I'm over 18, honest guv" on the signup page.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
824
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Posted - 2016.09.16 17:27:23 -
[34] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Most of the advertising spam for gambling that comes through the TV in the UK is for online gambling via apps, not physical premises where it's obvious that a person is underage and not allowed to participate.
The only safeguard against the apps being used by underage gamblers is probably a tickbox on the signup page.
Fair enough - and you are correct: *Legal* online gambling sites take no precautions against underage gamblers beyond making them click that little tick-box.
However - by going through the process of becoming *licenced* gambling institutions and putting that little checkbox on the web-page they *do* become "regulated", legal gambling establishments. After that all liability for underage gambling falls to those who lie when they check the little box or their legal guardians - unless someone can prove that the gambling site *knew* they were lying and took no action (very hard to prove).
If a video-game gambling site went through the paperwork to become a *legally recognized* and "regulated" gambling site, they would be 100% untouchable from a legal standpoint.
They could even just use the video game theme and gamble for straight-up cash $$$ if they wanted.
However, they would probably lose many of their casual gaming customers, who may be children or may just be adults who like to pretend they "aren't really gambling" because it is just video game assets. Neither of which would be able/interested in gambling in an officially recognized casino.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
824
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Posted - 2016.09.16 17:51:31 -
[35] - Quote
For the UK Specifically
Specifically:
Quote:The UK Gambling Commission & The Gambling Act 2005 The Gambling Commission was established under the terms of the Gambling Act of 2005, assuming its full power two years later. It took over many of the responsibilities previously held by the Gaming Board for Great Britain, and it also became responsible for the regulation of online gambling. Additionally, in 2013 it took over regulation of the National Lottery from the National Lottery Commission. According to the Gambling Act of 2005, the Gambling Commission has the power to issue a license to gambling operators and impose fines or revoke licenses if necessary. The act states the objectives of the Gambling Commission to be as follows:
- Preventing gambling from becoming a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder, or being used to support crime
- Ensuring that gambling is conducted in a fair and open way
- Protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling.
When it comes to providing online gambling services to UK residents, only companies whose operations are based in the UK can be issued with licenses by the Gambling Commission. However, the organization has a whitelist of approved gambling jurisdictions. Operators who obtain licenses from within those jurisdictions may also service UK customers.
So #1: By becoming officially licenced they certify that the UK Gambling Commission has gone through their website setup and verified it isn't rigged in some way.
#2: They include the check box to "keep children out" - which at least makes parents feel better 
And #3: If you don't have a license from the UK Gambling Commission - You *can not legally let anybody from the UK gamble on your site*. Period.
So as I said in a previous post - if one accepts that it is in fact "gambling" - then it is 100% illegal. There is no gray area, and no room for discussion. Because the video game gambling sites certainly don't have licenses from all the countries they serve.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
Toobo
Project Fruit House
Solyaris Chtonium
158
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Posted - 2016.09.17 08:18:44 -
[36] - Quote
The worst that can happen is you cannot log onto EVE gambling sites via UK ISP, much like I cannot connect to Ladbrokes from the country I'm living in now (along with other popular/well-known p0rn sites...).
But such blocks are trivially bypassed using VPN, and where no RL cash was circulated between the UK resident gambler and EVE gambling sites, I do not foresee that these transgressions will be monitored and clamped down that heavily.
Of course, I do not advise you break your local laws to access banned sites, but this is something that happens in massive scale everyday on the Internet, people bypassing the barriers to access that their local government has ruled 'illegal'.
In any case, my point is that UK ruling has no effect on non-UK residents, and only trivial effect even for UK residents if you are willing to bypass the laws.
There are tons of 'illegal' gambling sites operating on the Internet, frequently switching server locations and such. Most governments I have seen have been pretty damn ineffective in controlling Internet access to such things.
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
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Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
832
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Posted - 2016.09.17 13:35:45 -
[37] - Quote
Toobo wrote:The worst that can happen is you cannot log onto EVE gambling sites via UK ISP, much like I cannot connect to Ladbrokes from the country I'm living in now (along with other popular/well-known p0rn sites...).
But such blocks are trivially bypassed using VPN, and where no RL cash was circulated between the UK resident gambler and EVE gambling sites, I do not foresee that these transgressions will be monitored and clamped down that heavily.
Of course, I do not advise you break your local laws to access banned sites, but this is something that happens in massive scale everyday on the Internet, people bypassing the barriers to access that their local government has ruled 'illegal'.
In any case, my point is that UK ruling has no effect on non-UK residents, and only trivial effect even for UK residents if you are willing to bypass the laws.
There are tons of 'illegal' gambling sites operating on the Internet, frequently switching server locations and such. Most governments I have seen have been pretty damn ineffective in controlling Internet access to such things.
I agree - at least until they officially start monitoring everything everyone does on the internet to police such things (tinfoil hat anyone?)
However the people who *run* the sites are easy enough to track down - because they haven't thought it through, so they don't run their video-game gambling sites like illegal/underground gambling sites hosted in countries that won't bother them w/ filters to protect their identities/etc. They operate right out in the open where they are pitifully easy to find/catch - if anyone cared enough to do so. And they are the ones that the government would want to target - because they are the ones making profit that should legally be taxed (turns out greed is a primary motivator of government/judicial departments)
Now, governments/courts operating as they do...plus the mess of international law... Who knows if/when anybody will get around to actually *enforcing* the laws. But the CS:GO case sets a precedent - and people involved in such things might be wise to follow the case and see how it turns out, at the very least.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
832
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Posted - 2016.09.17 13:40:14 -
[38] - Quote
Now that being said I personally have no idea why anybody would want to go to an illegal/unregulated gambling site that may very well be rigged...when they live in an area that allows them to openly gamble at sites that are certified to be *not* rigged...
But some people like breaking the rules/laws even when it is against their own best interests I guess...
(and yes, I know some people don't live in areas like the UK where it is legal - but that is a separate topic)
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1568
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Posted - 2016.09.17 21:25:06 -
[39] - Quote
Gambling is a cancer that wreaks havoc on personal, social and economic life.
Exposing children to it is an atrocity.
Any state that supports it is a victim, tax exemptions for casinos are a sign the state is willing to bleed in the hope of a drink.
Every gambler is a victim. Any winners are just more bait.
Setting up a casino 'just across the border' allows monsters to launder the money they stole from the living.
I don't think any of this is over the top, it's important to keep this in mind while not stamping down hard enough to drive it underground, where it becomes invisible and invades political life.
The way Las Vegas has been mythologised and normalised, when it is nothing but a machine for cleaning criminal's money is incredible. There's versions all over the world.
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26858
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Posted - 2016.09.17 22:20:15 -
[40] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:So #1: By becoming officially licenced they certify that the UK Gambling Commission has gone through their website setup and verified it isn't rigged in some way. All gambling is rigged, hence the saying that the house always wins.
What the gambling commission does is make sure that the odds aren't excessively rigged, and take a payoff to ignore the inconvenient truth above.
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
835
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Posted - 2016.09.17 22:45:16 -
[41] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:So #1: By becoming officially licenced they certify that the UK Gambling Commission has gone through their website setup and verified it isn't rigged in some way. All gambling is rigged, hence the saying that the house always wins. What the gambling commission does is make sure that the odds aren't excessively rigged, and take a payoff to ignore the inconvenient truth above.
There is a difference between the odds favouring the house and being rigged. Being rigged = the house can *decide* who wins or loses and when.
Odds always favour the house because otherwise there would be no reason for them to run the gambling operation in the first place... But if the game is rigged then only the people the house likes wins - and if that isn't you you are guaranteed to lose. You don't even have an infinitesimal chance of actually winning long-term (though they may string you along with some early easy wins). For some reason this bothers people - and before the government regulated it it tended to be settled with violence and murder more often than not. But of course there was no "online" gambling back then.
*none* of which is relevant to whether video-game gambling sites are truly gambling, and thus illegal.
If you want to debate the morality of gambling, you'll get no argument from me it is a fool's occupation. But really it isn't related to the OP, so you should probably start your own thread. Either way, ISD will probably lock it for debating a controversial RL issue.
If you want to *do* something about gambling in the sense of eliminating all gambling from the world entirely....well...that would be an issue to take up with your local government. Not something that can productively be acted on within a video game forum.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
The-Culture
227
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Posted - 2016.09.19 10:36:11 -
[42] - Quote
It's probably worth noting that any UK or EU law could only really legislate against those sites that are owned or operated in the UK or Europe. In this case most EvE gambling sites would probably be unaffected.
Yes they could try and block access to such sites (in the same way as piracy sites sometimes are) but these measures are pretty ineffective at the best of times. |
Satchel Darkmatter
Massive Dynamic inc.
Care Factor
16
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Posted - 2016.09.19 10:46:38 -
[43] - Quote
With CCP moving their HQ to the UK they could find themselves in the firing line since they do not forbid or do anything to counter gambling, combine that with the coming free to play Alpha state clones and the inevitable influx of younger players and it could be a recipe for disaster.
I think it might be time for CCP to actually make a decision on this. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3941
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Posted - 2016.09.19 12:55:12 -
[44] - Quote
A couple of things occur to me.
First, when you "buy a PLEX" with real money, you do not actually own the PLEX. The EULA states that all in-game assets are actually owned by CCP. What you are really buying is the right to manipulate data on a server.
But, does that right to manipulate data have real world value? Yes it does. You can use that right to obtain additional time on the server. (Win ISK, exchange it for PLEX, PLEX your account.) Sometimes CCP allows PLEX to be used for other real world purchases. For example, I attended Eve Vegas via PLEX, and got two spaceship models as a result.
Thus, I conclude the Eve gambling sites are allowing you to gamble with something that has real world value.
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Frozen fanfiction
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Anthar Thebess
1638
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Posted - 2016.09.19 13:50:36 -
[45] - Quote
The problem with gambling sites it that they are addictive.
Person who visit virtual ones will get to real ones eventually - this is by his own choice, but problem is that eve is not mature persons only.
I think that current minimum age requirements is 13 years - kids are much likely to get hooked, especially that it don't cost them money (alfa clones after nov)
Information's about eve based gambling sites are every where, the moment i jump in to jita i get spammed about them in local, sometimes i even get PM about how "good they are" - for me as long kids are allowed to play this game - all advertising of the gambling should be strictly prohibited, even just by EULA.
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Giaus Felix
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
244
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Posted - 2016.09.19 14:02:24 -
[46] - Quote
I think that this is one instance where "won't somebody think of the children" is justly deserved.
In the case of Eve gambling is done with virtual cash that has no real life value, in that the RL currency to virtual currency exchange is one way only, but given that some players are under the age required to gamble in the real world I think that CCP do need to look into some kind of regulation before real world regulators do it for them, to the detriment of everybody.
EVE is a place of greed and danger, alliances and betrayals, risk and paranoia. It is not, and it should not be, a happy place of unicorns and rainbows.
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Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
40
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Posted - 2016.09.19 14:24:34 -
[47] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.
Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises.
Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26869
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 14:36:08 -
[48] - Quote
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:Chopper Rollins wrote:
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.
Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises. Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment. People with gambling problems tend to come from the poorest sectors of society, why is that?
Civilised behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
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Cade Windstalker
553
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Posted - 2016.09.19 14:38:02 -
[49] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Yes really. You may be able to convert money into ISK but there is no officially supported way to change it back, therefor it is not the same as gambling tokens.
EDIT : In the article i'm fairly sure they're talking about CS:GO which officially supports the transition from real money to skins / items and back again hence the legal issue. Official support is irrelevant to whether or not it's technically and legally able to be converted back, on top of which the conversion back to money is irrelevant. You try setting up an unregulated gambling site that allows you to buy tokens to gamble for non-transferable plane tickets and let me know how you get on. The concept is that it's irrelevant whether or not it can be turned into currency, it's whether or not the thing being gambled and the thing being gained has value, and since you can buy ISK for cash, it does. On top of which, the regulation behind gambling sites is there to protect people from getting into financial trouble due to gambling too much. Game gambling sites like IWI are unregulated, meaning someone with a gambling addiction has no protection if they choose to go into massive debt to buy plex to go gambling with. Of course sites with the easiest and quickest steps from items to cash will be looked at first as that's easier for the courts to see as holding value, but in the long run they'll get to EVE gambling sites.
It is not, otherwise every game that allows anything that might be construed as "Gambling" with an in-game resource would qualify as a gambling site. That CS:GO skins had real-world value and could be traded for real-world money makes them, in effect, poker chips.
Just because something has value to a person is not the same thing, legally speaking, as it having monetary value. CCP's TOS specifically states that you can't legally convert in-game items to money and doing so gets you banned.
The legislation these two are being charged under states, in Section 6.5 the following:
Quote:(5)In this Act GÇ£prizeGÇ¥ in relation to gaming (except in the context of a gaming machine)GÇö
(a)means money or money's worth, and
(b)includes both a prize provided by a person organising gaming and winnings of money staked.
So yes, that the object in question is freely convertible into money is important and relevant, and similar US legislation includes similar stipulations. |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
14715
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 14:48:46 -
[50] - Quote
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:Chopper Rollins wrote:
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.
Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises. Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment.
Well said. My wife and I take occasional trips to a casino across the border. We never spend more than $50 each and we don't even keep score or when we've broke even of came home with some extra cash...except that one time when she won 2 grand.
I've heard people take that hard line on things before. One guy told me that anyone who smokes is an idiot who will get addicted. I smoke no more than 3 cigarettes per month and have done so for years. Same with alcohol, I bought a 6 pack of beer 3 weeks ago and the last one is still in my fridge.
Not everyone is an addict waiting to happen, some of us can do adult things in strict moderation without having to be hand-held. |
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
840
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Posted - 2016.09.19 15:05:07 -
[51] - Quote
Incidentally...I never got into the steam market... But it was my understanding that you never actually got money out of it - you just got money in your steam wallet that you could spend on more games/skins/etc.
Was there actually a way to pull money out of the steam wallet back into RL cash?
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
Zanar Skwigelf
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
41
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 15:13:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Zanar Skwigelf wrote:Chopper Rollins wrote:
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.
Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises. Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment. People with gambling problems tend to come from the poorest sectors of society, why is that?
Because 1 in 175 million means there's still a chance. Which, again, is the mindset of someone trying to make money instead of entertain themselves. |
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7966
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 15:35:58 -
[53] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:It is not, otherwise every game that allows anything that might be construed as "Gambling" with an in-game resource would qualify as a gambling site. That CS:GO skins had real-world value and could be traded for real-world money makes them, in effect, poker chips. It's not about it just being an in-game resource though, it's that that resource can be purchased with cash. If a game give you in-game tokens and you gamble with those in game tokens for more in-game tokens, that's fine. The moment you then start selling tokens for cash, regardless of whether or not they can be converted back to cash, you're into potential legal responsibilities, since regulation is there to protect people who may blow all of their money on gambling.
Cade Windstalker wrote:Just because something has value to a person is not the same thing, legally speaking, as it having monetary value. CCP's TOS specifically states that you can't legally convert in-game items to money and doing so gets you banned. Completely irrelevant. If I made a gambling site where you gamble tokens for non-refundable, non-transferable flight tickets, I'd need to be regulated. Whether or not something has value isn;t solely dependent on whether or not it can be converted back to cash.
Even if it were though, CCPs EULA is irrelevant to whether or not it can be converted. Again, imagine a normal gambling site where people buy tokens and gamble with them and can transfer them to each other, then they sell them to each other on ebay, but your TOS says "you're not allowed to sell them!". Of course that's not going to just bypass regulation because their TOS has that random clause. A TOS doesn't magically break your liability.
Cade Windstalker wrote:The legislation these two are being charged under states, in Section 6.5 the following: Quote:(5)In this Act GÇ£prizeGÇ¥ in relation to gaming (except in the context of a gaming machine)GÇö
(a)means money or money's worth, and
(b)includes both a prize provided by a person organising gaming and winnings of money staked. So yes, that the object in question is freely convertible into money is important and relevant, and similar US legislation includes similar stipulations. At no point does that state that it needs to be able to be converted into money, it simply needs to be worth money, and ISK is worth money since you can buy it for money. Again, we're back to the idea that by providing a reward you can't sell on you can somehow sidestep the law. With ISK it's even more obvious than any other tokens too, since you can even use it to pay for services that would be paid for, not just subscription costs but event tickets to fanfest for example. There was even a time you could buy graphics cards with it. You'd have a hard time convincing a court that ISK was worth nothing.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7966
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Posted - 2016.09.19 15:38:28 -
[54] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Incidentally...I never got into the steam market... But it was my understanding that you never actually got money out of it - you just got money in your steam wallet that you could spend on more games/skins/etc.
Was there actually a way to pull money out of the steam wallet back into RL cash? Not AFAIK, you can buy games and stuff with it on steam is about it I think.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Dan Seavey Allier
Seavy Acquisitions
The Amish Mafia
105
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Posted - 2016.09.19 20:05:14 -
[55] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Zanar Skwigelf wrote:Chopper Rollins wrote:
Anyone who touches gambling is a self-destructive idiot or a greedy idiot or both.
Or someone else who is ok with "spending" $50 on a few hours of entertainment on shiny lights and loud noises. Your mindset is common among people who think the point of gambling is to make money. One look at the odds should be enough to know it's simply entertainment. People with gambling problems tend to come from the poorest sectors of society, why is that?
Because there is a distinct parallel between a lack of education and poverty.
Not foreseeing consequences is a symptom of that.
Coupled with financial desperation, the sucker is born.
Gambling is predatory, and it hunts the poor.
Dan
Honey Never Sleeps. - John Russell
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Cade Windstalker
553
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Posted - 2016.09.19 20:36:29 -
[56] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:It's not about it just being an in-game resource though, it's that that resource can be purchased with cash. If a game give you in-game tokens and you gamble with those in game tokens for more in-game tokens, that's fine. The moment you then start selling tokens for cash, regardless of whether or not they can be converted back to cash, you're into potential legal responsibilities, since regulation is there to protect people who may blow all of their money on gambling.
This is incorrect, it's not that the thing is purchased with money it's that it's freely convertible back into money.
These regulations are not, in fact, designed to prevent people from blowing all of their money gambling, they're designed to regulate gambling and confine it to certain laws and regulations. There is nothing in any gambling legislation that I'm aware of that requires the house to prevent someone from spending more than they can afford or do anything else to limit access to legal gambling.
Lucas Kell wrote:Completely irrelevant. If I made a gambling site where you gamble tokens for non-refundable, non-transferable flight tickets, I'd need to be regulated. Whether or not something has value isn;t solely dependent on whether or not it can be converted back to cash.
Even if it were though, CCPs EULA is irrelevant to whether or not it can be converted. Again, imagine a normal gambling site where people buy tokens and gamble with them and can transfer them to each other, then they sell them to each other on ebay, but your TOS says "you're not allowed to sell them!". Of course that's not going to just bypass regulation because their TOS has that random clause. A TOS doesn't magically break your liability.
Yes, because those tickets have value in the legal definition of the term. If you made a site that charged for tokens but you couldn't convert them to anything then you wouldn't be operating a gambling establishment under the sort of legal definition being used here. That's because in the legal sense of the term the tokens don't have value. You have essentially bought the ability to play the game but nothing more.
Also yes, a TOS exists for the express purpose of mitigating the legal responsibility of the entity in question. The only reason the CS:GO lawsuit and other proceedings are happening is because the skins are effectively poker chips that have real-world monetary value and can be exchanged for money.
Lucas Kell wrote:At no point does that state that it needs to be able to be converted into money, it simply needs to be worth money, and ISK is worth money since you can buy it for money. Again, we're back to the idea that by providing a reward you can't sell on you can somehow sidestep the law. With ISK it's even more obvious than any other tokens too, since you can even use it to pay for services that would be paid for, not just subscription costs but event tickets to fanfest for example. There was even a time you could buy graphics cards with it. You'd have a hard time convincing a court that ISK was worth nothing.
Thankfully this kind of pedantry with words doesn't really hold up in court. In short legally speaking ISK is not worth money any more than my Eve subscription is worth money. In the case of the subscription I'm paying for a non-transferable service. In the case of the ISK CCP expressly prohibits it from being exchanged for real world money. Legally speaking that is the definition of "value" because if I can't exchange something for money that thing is worthless to me.
Also you're conflating a few facts here. You could not, at any point, buy Fanfest tickets (or a graphics card) with ISK. You could buy them by trading in in-game PLEX which *do* have a specified value but those promotions were fairly limited in scope and in the case of fanfest tickets that's all internal to CCP.
Seriously you should really look into the laws here, as well as read a few more articles on these various cases, like I did when this whole thing started a few months ago. You'll find that legally it's highly unlikely gambling using in-game ISK breaks any laws and that there are very distinct differences between the CS:GO case and anything Eve related, namely the ability to convert CS:GO Skins to money and back again. You may not find this distinction important but it's key to the lawsuit against Valve and absolutely key legally speaking.
For example there's this case from Maryland where a secondary market was specifically called out as not causing the game to violate gambling laws: http://www.lawofthelevel.com/2015/11/articles/virtual-currency/court-rules-virtual-currency-casino-not-illegal-gambling-despite-secondary-market/
There's also a good PDF article here: https://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFiles/Media/files/Make%20Sure%20Your%20Virtual%20Currency%20Doesn't%20Enter%20Illegal%20Gambling%20Territory(1).pdf
that includes the following line from the US federal legal code:
Quote: GÇ£participation in any game or contest in which participants do not stake or risk anything of value other than (i) personal efforts of the participants in playing the game or contest or obtaining access to the Internet; or (ii) points or credits that the sponsor of the game or contest provides to participants free of charge and that can be used or redeemed only for participation in games or contests offered by the sponsor.GÇ¥
In short: Do your homework on this before jumping to conclusions. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
841
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Posted - 2016.09.19 21:03:19 -
[57] - Quote
You raise some interesting points - but I'm not sure you've thought them all the way through.
#1:Cade Windstalker wrote:Seriously you should really look into the laws here, as well as read a few more articles on these various cases, like I did when this whole thing started a few months ago. You'll find that legally it's highly unlikely gambling using in-game ISK breaks any laws and that there are very distinct differences between the CS:GO case and anything Eve related, namely the ability to convert CS:GO Skins to money and back again. You may not find this distinction important but it's key to the lawsuit against Valve and absolutely key legally speaking.
It is my understanding (confirmed by Lucas and not disputed by anybody) - that steam items are *not* convertible back to actual RL money. They are converted to "steam wallet" money - which is *only* useable within the steam stores. This is highly comparable to PLEX - and while the court has not (to my knowledge) reached a verdict about it (and may never do so as many out-of-court actions have occurred to avoid it)...if the court *did* decide that the CS:GO sites are actual illegal gambling sites it would be an extremely dangerous precedent for anybody running an EVE gambling site.
#2:
Ironically this is one of the worst possible examples you could pick - as almost every detail that caused them to throw the case out does not apply to EVE gambling sites. They are *not* a mini-game within EVE itself, they are isolated *non-gameplay-related* games on non-CCP-owned sites. They also use tokens (isk) that clearly have value outside of their own game - as they are only valuable in EVE. And as stated in point #1 - they can be converted back to RL value for all CCP store purposes - just like the steam items. They also don't need to be weirdly classified as "slot machines" - as they've been operating long enough and doing enough business to simply be classed as "gambling venues" or "gambling organizations". Once again here - the CS:GO case is far more relevant to EVE gambling, and *could* set a very dangerous precedent.
#3:
Again the tokens are *not* provided by the people running the sites, and have value *outside* of the gambling websites. They are not provided "free of charge" and *can* be redeemed elsewhere. They can even be used to purchase tickets with fairly high RL $$$ values - provided by *CCP* - not provided by the gambling sites. Once again there is a very strong parallel to the CS:GO case - and any/all legal precedents set in that case will be very relevant.
And finally:Cade Windstalker wrote:
In short: Do your homework on this before jumping to conclusions.
In this case I suggest you take your own advise - and actually make sure your examples are in any way relevant or fitting before jumping to your own conclusions.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
841
|
Posted - 2016.09.19 21:09:45 -
[58] - Quote
Incidentally if anyone ever proved that any EVE gambling site also rigged their code such that they could/did use it for RMT (I know I know, tinfoil hat territory here) - then there would be a direct RL-cash-for-token option *provided by the people running the gambling site* - and you would in fact have the most clear-cut illegal gambling operation imaginable, without a legal leg to stand on.
Just a fun thought 
edit:
(not to mention the obvious tax evasion on an undeclared income source, and probably a few other fun legal violations)
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Cade Windstalker
553
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Posted - 2016.09.20 13:42:57 -
[59] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:It is my understanding (confirmed by Lucas and not disputed by anybody) - that steam items are *not* convertible back to actual RL money. They are converted to "steam wallet" money - which is *only* useable within the steam stores. This is highly comparable to PLEX - and while the court has not (to my knowledge) reached a verdict about it (and may never do so as many out-of-court actions have occurred to avoid it)...if the court *did* decide that the CS:GO sites are actual illegal gambling sites it would be an extremely dangerous precedent for anybody running an EVE gambling site.
While this is true those funds can still be used in place of real money to buy anything listed on the Steam marketplace and those funds are displayed in real-world currency amounts. While it's possible that the court in these cases will rule that this is enough of a separation of "value" to make what went on not gambling I somewhat doubt it.
Since the Steam Wallet funds can be turned into something with a tangible real-world value that is easily and directly represented in real-world currency this probably satisfies that value argument in a way that PLEX does not, since PLEX (outside of the graphics card case, which has not repeated, possibly for exactly this legal reason) has no value outside the game it's a fairly good buffer between in-game currency and accusations that it has real-world value.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Ironically this is one of the worst possible examples you could pick - as almost every detail that caused them to throw the case out does not apply to EVE gambling sites. They are *not* a mini-game within EVE itself, they are isolated *non-gameplay-related* games on non-CCP-owned sites. They also use tokens (isk) that clearly have value outside of their own game - as they are only valuable in EVE. And as stated in point #1 - they can be converted back to RL value for all CCP store purposes - just like the steam items. They also don't need to be weirdly classified as "slot machines" - as they've been operating long enough and doing enough business to simply be classed as "gambling venues" or "gambling organizations". Once again here - the CS:GO case is far more relevant to EVE gambling, and *could* set a very dangerous precedent.
These third-party sites are still games within the game, they're just created by players. They just use third-party tools to run the game. All of the transfer of items still happens within the game and its value system, not a real-world value system.
To extrapolate a bit and go back to the previous example. I don't have to declare ISK earnings in Eve on my taxes no matter what country I'm in. If I tried to do it my local tax authorities would tell me no and make me re-file my taxes. However, if I were to win a Steam contest that pays out a sufficiently large number of games I *would* have to declare that on my taxes because those games have real-world value and would clearly constitute a gift for tax purposes (provided the amount was high enough, ect)
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Again the tokens are *not* provided by the people running the sites, and have value *outside* of the gambling websites. They are not provided "free of charge" and *can* be redeemed elsewhere. They can even be used to purchase tickets with fairly high RL $$$ values - provided by *CCP* - not provided by the gambling sites. Once again there is a very strong parallel to the CS:GO case - and any/all legal precedents set in that case will be very relevant.
They don't have value in the legal sense though. Both you and the OP seem to be getting hung up on the idea that "value" in this instance just means "something that is valued by someone" which is not the legal definition. Someone could certainly argue to the court that the fact that I can buy PLEX gives the ISK a real-world value, but the counter argument is that it can't be turned into real currency again and can't be used to acquire things with real world value the way a currency can (and the way Steam Wallet funds can) and so far that argument has held up legally.
Every example you've given here for a counter argument is predicated on the idea that "value" doesn't mean what it does in fact mean legally speaking, which is something that is worth real-world money, and the fact that the $$$ -> PLEX -> ISK chain can't be reversed back to $$$ is enough to break that. It's also possible that the same argument may undo these CS:GO cases, but it's much more ambiguous in those cases (for the reasons I listed above).
So yeah, all this gambling paranoia is just that, and good for nothing more than cheap forum entertainment. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
842
|
Posted - 2016.09.20 13:52:11 -
[60] - Quote
I believe CCP would tell you that the gambling websites are *not* part of their game. In fact they were banned from the in game browser for a while - and now there isn't even an in-game browser for them to run on. They are very clearly *separate* games. With no skill based component.
Additionally, CCP lets people use PLEX to pay for fanfest tickets/etc every single year. Plus tours/etc. That can be around $500-1000 per person in RL money value paid for with PLEX. And again, let me emphasize - CCP is *not* the one providing the gambling service.
*You* seem to be missing the point that *I* am not saying CCP is legally liable in any way. I'm saying the people who own and operate the gambling websites should watch their step. *I* think that although they had some questionable practices in the past CCP's current operating policy places enough distance between them and the gambling sites to let them deny any relation at all - which leaves the gambling sites themselves squarely in the legal cross-hairs.
As for "not being displayed as RL money" - you are aware that CCP is (or at least was) based in Iceland right? Where the RL currency is, in fact, Isk? Honestly it is irrelevant as in both cases it is just virtual money that happens to have the same formatting/name as real money - but you didn't even get that point correct.
Now, I'm not saying it is clear-cut illegal. I'm just saying that *if* the CS:GO case sets the precedant that virtual items/money can be used as "valuable" currency in "illegal gambling" - *then* the EVE gambling sites would do well to take notice, because they are on much the same dangerous bridge between legal games and illegal gambling sites.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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