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Ginger Naari
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2016.09.16 12:56:42 -
[1] - Quote
A news story has just been released in the UK.
Whether it affects EVE, I have no idea. But it's very interesting anyway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37385555
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Commissar Kate
NulzSec
407080
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:05:56 -
[2] - Quote
Well with the Eve gambling sites you are gambling with in game currency and not real world currency. That's all the difference it makes.
-k8
My Fanclub
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7880
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:22:16 -
[3] - Quote
Commissar Kate wrote:Well with the Eve gambling sites you are gambling with in game currency and not real world currency. That's all the difference it makes. Not really, since you can effectively buy in-game currency for real money, thus giving it value. Just like you can't sell tokens then allow people to gamble with those tokens instead of money to get around gambling laws, this is simply an extension of that. Right now it's pretty hazy because the law is slow to catch up with moving technology trends, but they'll catch up eventually. CCP may even find themselves somewhat liable given that they actively support people gambling ISK on third party gambling sites.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Ethan Zoromir
Delta Laroth Industries
Voxis Accord
5
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:23:56 -
[4] - Quote
I think because you can't trade ISK for real life cash, then that most likely won't apply to Eve's gambling sites.
Voxis Accord | Mixed sov null alliance with a strong focus on building a great community | Proud members of Querious Fight Club
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
819
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:24:07 -
[5] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Commissar Kate wrote:Well with the Eve gambling sites you are gambling with in game currency and not real world currency. That's all the difference it makes. Not really, since you can effectively buy in-game currency for real money, thus giving it value. Just like you can't sell tokens then allow people to gamble with those tokens instead of money to get around gambling laws, this is simply an extension of that. Right now it's pretty hazy because the law is slow to catch up with moving technology trends, but they'll catch up eventually. CCP may even find themselves somewhat liable given that they actively support people gambling ISK on third party gambling sites.
I don't believe CCP provides any *official* support to any gambling sites anymore.
I'm not saying there is no support - just that it isn't official and thus could be denied in court.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
14699
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:32:06 -
[6] - Quote
A much better article.
This one is linked in the article. http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-skin-gambling/ |
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7880
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:32:16 -
[7] - Quote
Ethan Zoromir wrote:I think because you can't trade ISK for real life cash, then that most likely won't apply to Eve's gambling sites. Note that this is around skin/weapon gambing and often people bet using skins and weapons they own as a currency rather than paying in straight cash. What the law is there to stop is people getting in financial distress by getting deeper into better, so all the time there's any method of turning real money into a currency with which to gamble, there's a potential legal concern there. Whether or not you're directly paying currency in to gamble with, or able to turn your winnings into cash is irrelevant.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:I don't believe CCP provides any *official* support to any gambling sites anymore.
I'm not saying there is no support - just that it isn't official and thus could be denied in court. I think even if they ignore CCP actively working with those sites for promotions, the courts would see that it's pushed on their own chat channels and forums and not prevented as a pretty compelling sign of support. More so that IWI was blocked on the IGB and CCP chose to unblock it. Most sites also use CCPs API to operate which would be hard to dismiss. The only thing CCP has going for them is that EVE is a lot smaller than other games being scrutinised so it might take a while.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
819
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:40:35 -
[8] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I think even if they ignore CCP actively working with those sites for promotions, the courts would see that it's pushed on their own chat channels and forums and not prevented as a pretty compelling sign of support. More so that IWI was blocked on the IGB and CCP chose to unblock it. Most sites also use CCPs API to operate which would be hard to dismiss. The only thing CCP has going for them is that EVE is a lot smaller than other games being scrutinised so it might take a while.
TBH there is already at least 1 well-known former EVE player threatening to press these charges - but he says he is waiting until the CS:GO gambling case actually finishes to see if they are even found guilty... Which may take years.
We'll see if he follows through if/when the time comes I guess.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
449
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:41:04 -
[9] - Quote
Isn't part of the issue with CS:GO gambling sites, that it was basically gambling targeted towards kids?
Anyway, don't think it's going to be a big deal in EvE.
But we can all agree on one thing though. That governments policies are extremely slow to adapt to technological trends. |
Keno Skir
845
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:47:14 -
[10] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Commissar Kate wrote:Well with the Eve gambling sites you are gambling with in game currency and not real world currency. That's all the difference it makes. Not really, since you can effectively buy in-game currency for real money, thus giving it value. Just like you can't sell tokens then allow people to gamble with those tokens instead of money to get around gambling laws, this is simply an extension of that. Right now it's pretty hazy because the law is slow to catch up with moving technology trends, but they'll catch up eventually. CCP may even find themselves somewhat liable given that they actively support people gambling ISK on third party gambling sites.
Yes really. You may be able to convert money into ISK but there is no officially supported way to change it back, therefor it is not the same as gambling tokens.
EDIT : In the article i'm fairly sure they're talking about CS:GO which officially supports the transition from real money to skins / items and back again hence the legal issue.
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
820
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:49:19 -
[11] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Isn't part of the issue with CS:GO gambling sites, that it was basically gambling targeted towards kids?
Anyway, don't think it's going to be a big deal in EvE.
But we can all agree on one thing though. That governments policies are extremely slow to adapt to technological trends.
Gambling is a touchy subject for some people - even/especially at a government level.
There are many countries that certainly don't care - but you only need to find 1 reasonably respected country that is extremely uptight about gambling to get a conviction... And there have been states within the USA for example that have attempted moves to ban online gambling *games* that just give you free imaginary money to throw away - because they object to the gambling itself regardless of whether anything is actually being gambled or not... So I wouldn't be 100% sure that someone won't eventually sue the EVE gambling sites at the very least.
Now whether they can drag CCP into it is a separate issue - since as I said I think they are being careful to avoid official, legally incriminating support/connections.
Failing to go out of their way to perform law enforcement's job and ban people for it is a pretty weak charge for a massive lawsuit though...
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
Black Marker
541
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Posted - 2016.09.16 13:49:36 -
[12] - Quote
Oh, look. Lucas is out on his personal vendetta again.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
8720
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Posted - 2016.09.16 14:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Oh, look. Lucas is out on his personal vendetta again.
He's still salty about having to re-deploy to Content Ring.
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7880
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:10:46 -
[14] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Yes really. You may be able to convert money into ISK but there is no officially supported way to change it back, therefor it is not the same as gambling tokens.
EDIT : In the article i'm fairly sure they're talking about CS:GO which officially supports the transition from real money to skins / items and back again hence the legal issue. Official support is irrelevant to whether or not it's technically and legally able to be converted back, on top of which the conversion back to money is irrelevant. You try setting up an unregulated gambling site that allows you to buy tokens to gamble for non-transferable plane tickets and let me know how you get on.
The concept is that it's irrelevant whether or not it can be turned into currency, it's whether or not the thing being gambled and the thing being gained has value, and since you can buy ISK for cash, it does. On top of which, the regulation behind gambling sites is there to protect people from getting into financial trouble due to gambling too much. Game gambling sites like IWI are unregulated, meaning someone with a gambling addiction has no protection if they choose to go into massive debt to buy plex to go gambling with.
Of course sites with the easiest and quickest steps from items to cash will be looked at first as that's easier for the courts to see as holding value, but in the long run they'll get to EVE gambling sites.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7880
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:13:39 -
[15] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:Oh, look. Lucas is out on his personal vendetta again. He's still salty about having to re-deploy to Content Ring. Not at all, I've been against these gambling sites since long before I was in SMA. I get it though, it's easier for you to simply dismiss other people's arguments than trying to think up a valid reason to support unregulated gambling, right?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
Black Marker
541
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:14:27 -
[16] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:Oh, look. Lucas is out on his personal vendetta again. He's still salty about having to re-deploy to Content Ring. Not at all, I've been against these gambling sites since long before I was in SMA. I get it though, it's easier for you to simply dismiss other people's arguments than trying to think up a valid reason to support unregulated gambling, right?
No, not really. It's just that arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7880
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:15:17 -
[17] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:No, not really. It's just that arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time. Arguing with someone that's objectively right often is.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
Black Marker
541
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:16:05 -
[18] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:No, not really. It's just that arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time. Arguing with someone that's objectively right often is.
Just keep on living in your little dream world 
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
14702
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:21:30 -
[19] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:
No, not really. It's just that arguing with you is nothing but a waste of time.
If I had the skills I'd make an info graphic thing showing people how to use the ignore function lol. If only it worked to block quoted posts it would be prefect.
As for the topic, this thread will become nothing but a useless circle jerk of at most a half dozen people making the same handful of arguments for the next , well, however long it takes ISD to close this..
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Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
8722
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:22:59 -
[20] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:Oh, look. Lucas is out on his personal vendetta again. He's still salty about having to re-deploy to Content Ring. Not at all, I've been against these gambling sites since long before I was in SMA. I get it though, it's easier for you to simply dismiss other people's arguments than trying to think up a valid reason to support unregulated gambling, right?
No, Doc gets it. It's easier for you to blame 'grr gambling' instead of your shite leadership.
/does not support gambling, regulated or not
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
820
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Random Legal Quibble (but lets face it this thread was never going anywhere anyway):
Those who are OK with Virtual Betting are in fact harming their own case any time they refer to such sites/organizations as "gambling" sites or "gambling" organizations.
Ultimately most legal codes are clear - and *if* one accepts that such a site has any form of actual, legally recognized "gambling" of any form it is 100% clear-cut illegal.
So the argument is simply: Is it actually gambling - or do people just *mistakenly* call it "gambling" when in fact nothing of value is involved so no gambling occurs.
So if this is your position - I would advise you to choose your words with care and not refer to it as "gambling" - because in doing so you at least give the impression of conceding the most important point of legal contention.
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
7885
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:40:38 -
[22] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:No, Doc gets it. It's easier for you to blame 'grr gambling' instead of your shite leadership. So what you're saying is you think that even before I had even heard of SMA, let alone joined it, I already blamed gambling sites for the bad leadership decisions that would be made in the future?
How do you not get it? I've always been against the gambling sites and been pretty vocal about it. This thread has nothing to do with SMA, it's pointing out the potential legal issues that gambling sites will run into (and potentially drag CCP into) if left to their own devices.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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ISD Chanisa Nemes
isd community communications liaisons
25
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:41:46 -
[23] - Quote
I've cleaned up this thread and removed much of the unnecessary off topic posting. Remember to play nice, children.
ISD Chanisa Nemes
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Serene Repose
3010
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:43:59 -
[24] - Quote
As far as the legal beagles are concerned, management has actively promoted gambling sites "giving away" ships and other items for its own profit and benefit. To parse it out for the aspies, no, they don't get anything from the sites, but law identifies endorsement of illegal activities which brings legitimate business your way as being in collusion. Ipso facto, etc.
The "argument" (and a very flimsy one at that) so-called "intelligent gamers" make is that none of this is real. Law doesn't use the "intelligent gamer's" definition of "real" (fortunately for civilization and all that's attached), it uses its own and this is where a lot of "intelligent gamers" might find themselves derping to themselves, (but, of course not to us.)
So far law has come to identify everything else similar to digital "items" as having a monetary value. Hell, the same people who claim stuff in EVE isn't worth real money, when talking about all the fabulous losses in the fabulous battles that have occurred simply have to state the value in equivalence of dollars or pounds. In fact management itself has stated in official releases exactly the same thing, so if in a court of law trying to argue against the idea, their own words need only be trotted before a judge.
This of course gets to the heart of the very nature of certain endorsed behavior in this game in particular. This, of course, makes it a topic here - not just the existence of gambling sites. Is it really legal to set up a game which encourages certain players to rob certain players all the while claiming it's just for fun and none of this is real. (There are other threads covering this so don't bog this one down with that subject.)
However, what people don't see to comprehend is proscription of gambling doesn't have so much to do with the money involved, i.e., will daddy bet the ranch and leave his family homeless? The proscription is accepted as a method to curb promulgating destructive behavior in a psychological area. Gambling addiction, for instance, is a behavioral disorder. (All behavioral disorders can to some degree penalize the sufferer economically.) And, therefore, to avoid afflicting children with this behavior by not having it around, and not having it seen or spoken about via adults.
The only "story" here is legislatures have been rather slow at jumping onto video games and the behavior they countenance, endorse and support. There could be some discussion as to why this delay, however, there can be no discussion that video games have nothing about them that holds them immune from legislation across the board, and not especially the desperately, but rather wan view, "But...but...this isn't real!"
If this isn't real. You aren't real. None of this is happening, so there's nothing to discuss. Ipso facto, etc.
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
14702
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:48:31 -
[25] - Quote
And just like that, Serene manages to tie in all of his pet dislikes of the game into one post in a gambling thread.
Is there anything Serene actually likes about EVE? This isn't the 1st time you have railed against "behavior CCP has encouraged". If you hate so much of it evidenced by the post you just posted, why in hell are you still here giving CCP money? |
Serene Repose
3010
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Posted - 2016.09.16 15:51:36 -
[26] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:And just like that, Serene manages to tie in all of his pet dislikes of the game into one post in a gambling thread.
Is there anything Serene actually likes about EVE? This isn't the 1st time you have railed against "behavior CCP has encouraged". If you hate so much of it evidenced by the post you just posted, why in hell are you still here giving CCP money? "His?" Are you soft? I have a toon that happens to have been directly involved in the third highest (in ISK amount) scam to ever occur in this game. My end was 40% of the take. You people who think you are amateur psychologists, and can jump to conclusions like this one....well, take it from me, you've been around for thousands of years, and you're just as common today as you were back then.
"We" know....too bad you haven't figured it out yet.
We must accommodate the idiocracy.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
14702
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Posted - 2016.09.16 16:03:02 -
[27] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:And just like that, Serene manages to tie in all of his pet dislikes of the game into one post in a gambling thread.
Is there anything Serene actually likes about EVE? This isn't the 1st time you have railed against "behavior CCP has encouraged". If you hate so much of it evidenced by the post you just posted, why in hell are you still here giving CCP money? "His?" Are you soft? I have a toon that happens to have been directly involved in the third highest (in ISK amount) scam to ever occur in this game. My end was 40% of the take. You people who think you are amateur psychologists, and can jump to conclusions like this one....well, take it from me, you've been around for thousands of years, and you're just as common today as you were back then. "We" know....too bad you haven't figured it out yet.
You didn't answer the question. Why give CCP money when you hate them? |
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
821
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Posted - 2016.09.16 16:04:12 -
[28] - Quote
Actually I think Serene summed it up pretty well on this issue.
(I know, I actually agreed with her...The universe may in fact be ending)
edit: And of course I mean the long post - not the followups here 
The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
|
ISD Chanisa Nemes
isd community communications liaisons
25
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Posted - 2016.09.16 16:18:58 -
[29] - Quote
I've removed more off topic posts. Seriously guys, keep it civil.
ISD Chanisa Nemes
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
1192
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Posted - 2016.09.16 16:24:59 -
[30] - Quote
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:I've removed more off topic posts. Seriously guys, keep it civil.
You may as well subscribe to this thread and come back every four or five posts - this is one of those topics, like AFK cloaking - where civility takes a backseat to being right.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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