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Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.09.16 20:51:19 - [1] - Quote Hi folks, Just as there exists a HIC, I think it could be fun if there was a battleship hull with a cyno jammer on it. Short range, probably something like 500km. Since it's short range, having it block covert cynos would be even more to the point. Or maybe with a script. Block one but not both, presence of one field blocks the other or something. It would not break: BLOPs - you will see the ship on grid before you light your cyno. If you light it anyways you're deserving to get popped when nobody jumps through to help you. Hot Drops - Again you'll see it on grid. You can still cyno people in from off-grid and warp in. Cyno Generator array - yea okay it does break these, but that is the point. Rapid response would mean including a cyno ship to fly near grid and cyno in the capital/supercap fleet. Why? Less blappage (when the pilots who live in the space being roamed drop carriers on your gang), more fighting. More fighting means more fun. You can't just rock paper HOT DROP LOL. Or when you're on a strategic op, you can bring one of those to prevent a rapid response, forcing subcap response while the cap /supers mobilize and wait for someone to cyno them in off grid. It would be more to the advantage of roamers who are outside of their home system, and small corps who do not have titans / blops. Both regular and covert cynos are still possible, you just can't do it with one of these battleships in the near vicinity. The natural weakness: it's a battleship... slower than your mom, about as agile, and vulnerable to things like bombers. It could have a high resist profile, similar to HICs. Thoughts?
Lugh Crow-Slave 3123	Posted - 2016.09.17 01:35:32 - [2] - Quote -1 use the jammer already in game. -1 jamers should never block cov cynos as cov cynos are the counter to jammers -1 "short range" of 500km wtf BLOPS Hauler
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 831	Posted - 2016.09.17 02:09:34 - [3] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: -1 "short range" of 500km wtf The goal would seem to not even having on grid warping. They are just not subtle about it lol. rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe. And op how does this not break BLOPS. Yes read we will see the effect in use on grid. Thats the point. Targets are getting ample time to think of what to do next as we can't jump right on them. From a combat perspective for those who use blops for more than bridges....this is breaking them. Ninjya gangs are hit and run. Not setup over 500km's out, setup warp to's then hit and run. Element of surprise is gone at this point. And for covert ninjya ops, this is half the reason they work. The surprise element. Blops don't tank well, blops have no real monster DPS (except redeemer, its passable but not monster)...in the time it takes to setup attack from 500 out...we are already in a bad spot potentially.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3124	Posted - 2016.09.17 02:11:49 - [4] - Quote side note zan can i see your redeemer fit mine always feels meh dps wise. i get more out of widow and panther BLOPS Hauler
Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.09.17 04:06:12 - [5] - Quote The cyno jammer in game already takes time to anchor. I haven't even got anchoring skills on my pilot so I have no clue how long it takes, but dropping a tower every time you come across someone seems cumbersome. Then scooping it back up for the next jump. By that logic you could remove a HIC's ability to bubble on the grounds that there are already bubbles that can be anchored. A lot of people would probably be unhappy with that. The "short" range of 500km is indeed to stop people from dropping right on top of a prepared group. The whole point is to not end the sentence with "and then carriers came, turned on their NSAs and wiped us out". 500km seemed a good distance to me because it's still a short warp, it's far enough away that fighters would still take quite some time to arrive, and it's technically on-grid. As for breaking blops, I guess it depends on how you define blops. To me, blops is a hunter lighting a cyno on someone and engaging in a very lopsided gank. No issues with that, it's fun. If you're blopsing into a fleet battle, there are many who would argue that you are not using blops the way it was intended (sneak attacks). Under the definition of blopsing as a sneak attack against unsuspecting targets, they probably wouldn't be multiboxing with a cyno-based interdictor alt. Even if they were, you'd still see it and wouldn't initiate the attack. Normal blops is warp to the target, light the cyno, jump and blap, and scatter / jump out. If you're blopsing a well-prepared fleet you deserve to whelp. I'm not talking about a module for any BS, I'm talking about a specific hull like the HICs (as a normal cruiser cannot generate bubbles).
Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.09.17 04:18:01 - [6] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe. Sorry also meant to answer this one as well. I don't know of many systems that are only 500km across. With a short range of effect (on an astronomical scale) this does not make a system "safe". It makes the immediate grid safe from "and then they jumped on us". At a cost of dragging around a slow battleship. Any corp with intel will simply have a gate camp waiting for the slow-moving roam. It most definitely has trade-offs.
Rawmeat Mary Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department 151	Posted - 2016.09.17 04:58:23 - [7] - Quote Old Pervert wrote: Zan Shiro wrote: rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe. Sorry also meant to answer this one as well. I don't know of many systems that are only 500km across. With a short range of effect (on an astronomical scale) this does not make a system "safe". It makes the immediate grid safe from "and then they jumped on us". At a cost of dragging around a slow battleship. Any corp with intel will simply have a gate camp waiting for the slow-moving roam. It most definitely has trade-offs. Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets. 'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.' Yeah, we're like that.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3126	Posted - 2016.09.17 05:05:29 - [8] - Quote this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right? BLOPS Hauler
Lugh Crow-Slave 3126	Posted - 2016.09.17 05:07:01 - [9] - Quote Rawmeat Mary wrote: Old Pervert wrote: Zan Shiro wrote: rest is as you say why covert bridges exist. YOU can normal cyno jam a system....still have to worry about the ninjya's. In this way a systems is never 100% drop safe. Sorry also meant to answer this one as well. I don't know of many systems that are only 500km across. With a short range of effect (on an astronomical scale) this does not make a system "safe". It makes the immediate grid safe from "and then they jumped on us". At a cost of dragging around a slow battleship. Any corp with intel will simply have a gate camp waiting for the slow-moving roam. It most definitely has trade-offs. Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets. i think i would just go for a rigged rokh cheaper and can still keep up with cruisers BLOPS Hauler
Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.09.17 06:02:40 - [10] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right? Nope. Didn't know that. Do they not have an anchoring time? Rawmeat Mary wrote: Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets. As mentioned. A special HULL. Like a HIC. You can't make a bubble with a Caracal can you?
Rawmeat Mary Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department 151	Posted - 2016.09.17 06:22:18 - [11] - Quote Old Pervert wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right? Nope. Didn't know that. Do they not have an anchoring time? Rawmeat Mary wrote: Mandatory warp speed rigged Mach in all fleets. As mentioned. A special HULL. Like a HIC. You can't make a bubble with a Caracal can you? No, but you can fit Warp Speed rigs on any ship. That being said, I am not against the idea, certainly open for discussion. 'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.' Yeah, we're like that.
Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.09.17 07:28:59 - [12] - Quote Oh you mean for warp-in? Entirely misunderstood what you meant, I thought you meant putting the cyno jamming module/generator on a travel fit Mach so you could keep up with cruisers.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3128	Posted - 2016.09.17 08:21:05 - [13] - Quote Old Pervert wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: this guy does know there are cyno jammers that don't need towers right? Nope. Didn't know that. Do they not have an anchoring time? 60s 100km range This idea is not the same as a hicari. A bubble can not give one side grid superiority this ship can. Suddenly fights become who can pop all of the enemies anti cyno ships first. Once you do you drop your jamer just long enough to light a cyno and then put it back up b4 the enemy can react. Now you can flood the field with supers as they disengage BLOPS Hauler
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1902	Posted - 2016.09.17 08:28:53 - [14] - Quote what would stop someone from putting one of these in every place where they dont want hotdropper? Art of Explosions
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 461	Posted - 2016.09.17 09:08:18 - [15] - Quote I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs? I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3128	Posted - 2016.09.17 10:31:40 - [16] - Quote Caldari 5 wrote: I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs? I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine. Only way I see this working is if the ranges were between 20km for t1 and 35-40 for faction max. Then they become a way to limit your enemies options as to where they can deploy. (Keep dreads from dropping 0 on your fax, force a fax to drop at the edge of its range ect. Only issue is I no longer see it working on a BB hull as mobility would be rather important BLOPS Hauler
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 461	Posted - 2016.09.17 11:15:45 - [17] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Caldari 5 wrote: I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs? I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine. Only way I see this working is if the ranges were between 20km for t1 and 35-40 for faction max. Then they become a way to limit your enemies options as to where they can deploy. (Keep dreads from dropping 0 on your fax, force a fax to drop at the edge of its range ect. Only issue is I no longer see it working on a BB hull as mobility would be rather important Maybe have the opposite of the drawback on speed then, set speed to double max and a penalty to agility during use? forcing it to zig-zag/patrol?
Lugh Crow-Slave 3129	Posted - 2016.09.17 11:21:25 - [18] - Quote Caldari 5 wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Caldari 5 wrote: I'm guessing that the associated module for this BS Cyno Inhibitor Ship would have similar drawbacks to the WDFGs on the HICs? I don't really see an issue with this becoming a thing. The Range Numbers can be tweaked, but the concept is fine. Only way I see this working is if the ranges were between 20km for t1 and 35-40 for faction max. Then they become a way to limit your enemies options as to where they can deploy. (Keep dreads from dropping 0 on your fax, force a fax to drop at the edge of its range ect. Only issue is I no longer see it working on a BB hull as mobility would be rather important Maybe have the opposite of the drawback on speed then, set speed to double max and a penalty to agility during use? forcing it to zig-zag/patrol? The enemy fleet would only need to get out of range for 1 tick. Besides things don't go well when you try to force a square peg into a round hole Another issue with making it a T2BB is cost. Each hull would be near 1b meaning large groups would be able to use it all g they like but small groups would have issue. That's double bad when you realise the small groups would have more need of it BLOPS Hauler
Christopher Mabata Sentinel Incorporium 423	Posted - 2016.09.17 18:14:23 - [19] - Quote What i'm reading here seems to describe a T2 Battleship continuing up the interdictor tree, which i am certainly open to discussion of, i do love My HIC and my Sabre. What we really need here OP is more details, which hulls would this use? is this a hull bonus or an active module? (Perhaps the un-used 3rd Battleships in the tree such as the Rokh and Hyperion could be used now that i think of it) In addition what are we looking like for fitting this thing? what are the benefits vs drawbacks? What can someone do with it aside from its role, i forsee that if this were overdone people in 0.0 could use these to run sites since it would be much safer than using a marauder, carrier, T3, etc since you now can't be dropped or that people would put an alt in one to protect ratting carriers from drops at extra low risk to themselves. Also -1 for blocking CovCyno As thats the counter play to cyno jamming, In addition can this only be used in Null Sec? Can it be used in Low Sec? Etc. Details, Details, Details Will continue reading other opinions post-work. GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony 775	Posted - 2016.09.17 18:51:23 - [20] - Quote I like the general idea, but I doubt it'd be tech I. Given that marauders are essentially PvE ships, I always found the lack of PvP T2 battleships disturbing. This thread might go places- I'll stay tuned!
Rawmeat Mary Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department 151	Posted - 2016.09.17 20:39:40 - [21] - Quote No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion). Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer. 'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.' Yeah, we're like that.
Christopher Mabata Sentinel Incorporium 424	Posted - 2016.09.18 02:52:33 - [22] - Quote Rawmeat Mary wrote: No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion). Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer. Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default. GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Christopher Mabata Sentinel Incorporium 424	Posted - 2016.09.18 02:55:08 - [23] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: I like the general idea, but I doubt it'd be tech I. Given that marauders are essentially PvE ships, I always found the lack of PvP T2 battleships disturbing. This thread might go places- I'll stay tuned! Well right now it is even really Marauders are PVE T2 Battleships that can do PVP And Black Ops do PVP and could possibly do some pve activities if fit right I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Lugh Crow-Slave 3133	Posted - 2016.09.18 03:43:23 - [24] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls How is a Cyno jammer the continuation of a hic? And don't most lines end at cruiser level? "Filling in a hole" is not a good reason to add a ship unless it would A fill a niche and B be balanced. And this would definitely not be an easy thing to balance. You could also argue the niche is already filed by existing tools BLOPS Hauler
Lugh Crow-Slave 3133	Posted - 2016.09.18 03:45:11 - [25] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: Rawmeat Mary wrote: No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion). Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer. Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default. It would be unbalanced even if it was a mod that blocked cynos particularly with the range he wants. BLOPS Hauler
Rawmeat Mary Celtic Anarchy Complaints Department 151	Posted - 2016.09.18 12:16:04 - [26] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Christopher Mabata wrote: Rawmeat Mary wrote: No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion). Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer. Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default. It would be unbalanced even if it was a mod that blocked cynos particularly with the range he wants. Likely, but then balance comes after an interesting idea becomes a development concept. Range would certainly be part of that balance. 'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.' Yeah, we're like that.
Christopher Mabata Sentinel Incorporium 425	Posted - 2016.09.18 16:37:30 - [27] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Christopher Mabata wrote: I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls How is a Cyno jammer the continuation of a hic? And don't most lines end at cruiser level? "Filling in a hole" is not a good reason to add a ship unless it would A fill a niche and B be balanced. And this would definitely not be an easy thing to balance. You could also argue the niche is already filed by existing tools As for the continuity of a tree i see it like this: Logistics Goes all the way from Frigate class to the FAX with a gap where battleships are in of hull size linear progression Damage Ships move all the way up to the dreadnought Mining moves all the way to the rorqual Drone ships go as far as supercarriers Im hesitant to say boosts go all the way up to titan class since titans do a lot of things at once Ewar on the other hand stops at the battleship level with the scorpion being the only EWAR T1 BS hull i know of ( Discussion for another thread) Now interdictors have just the 2 a destroyer hull that specializes in hit and run area tackle, and a cruiser hull that focuses on super-heavy tackle and area tackle. Adding this concept to the 3rd you get a balance of what interdictors do which is "Breach enemy warp tunnels" according to one of the skillbooks. This idea while in need of refinement i think fits with the general hull concept: Interdictor - Pulls enemies out of warp, hit and run area denial through bubbles Heavy Dictor - Super heavy tackle that fills all of the above roles and has added effects on capital class ships BS Concept Idea - Disrupts localized use of jump drive technology rather than just even heavier tackle with less movement Sure its a jump from A to C but i think with the right touch of balance this could at least become something worthy of a bit more discussion, at least thats how i see it. To each their own opinion GÖú Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry GÖú 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing GÖú This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2016.09.19 02:05:04 - [28] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: BS Concept Idea - Disrupts localized use of jump drive technology rather than just even heavier tackle with less movement With the added distinction that this would not tackle. In my head at least, this would not prevent a capital from jumping out, it would merely "scramble" or prevent a cyno from being lit. As others have said, balance is critical. The range would be one item to balance, and as I've never flown a (super)cap before, I honestly couldn't say either way what a good balance would be. Regarding the cost, small gangs may or may not be able to afford it, but if it does what it is intended to do, it might be worth dropping ~500m on a battleship if it protects 1b in fleet assets. The way I see it, if it's a T2 BS, you'll probably have the isk to afford it. Since there have been a few repeated questions on the matter, I'll repeat again that I do believe this would need to be a completely new hull, just as is the case with the HIC. No other cruisers can mount the bubble generator. Regarding the point that it would just be a matter of burning down their cyno jammer first, my question is this: If you burn down our jammer ship and we burn down your dps, will we burn down your dps faster than you burn down our cyno jammers? Or logistics? It's not a clear cut case of "primary the cyno jammer and win". Sure if it's a 20+ pilot fleet you can start talking about alphas, but I personally haven't come across many of those while roaming unless we end up in someone's home space and they throw the kitchen sink at us. If they have logistics backing their cyno jammer, and it's a subcap fleet against a subcap fleet, you may find better value targets. More importantly, I think that this will encourage fleets to more than just make a giant wrecking ball of one type of ship. Doctrines have their obvious benefits, but honestly they're boring as ****. I love flying kitchen sink roams personally. I'll go RP-mode for a second, if you stop playing spreadsheet simulator and to back to spaceship battles, it's always more fun seeing movies when they've got an assortment of battlegroups, each group having a variety of ships to fill a certain need. A blob of the same ships would all have the same weaknesses and strengths.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3138	Posted - 2016.09.19 02:23:47 - [29] - Quote A t2 BB based of the tire 3 hull would be about 1b of based on the other hulls it would be 800-950 just like the current ones. It would be a matter of just killing the James as that will remove dps be asure good as killing a cap as far as to isk war and once you can light your Cyno it doesn't matter if up to that point you have lost more dps you have now just won BLOPS Hauler
FT Diomedes The Graduates 2686	Posted - 2016.09.19 02:27:01 - [30] - Quote This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned. CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

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