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michaeltward
Fallen Sentinels
1
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Posted - 2016.09.18 10:34:24 -
[1] - Quote
This strikes me as something that a lot of posts may have been made about but I cant see any.
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant and for some one like me who lives in a wormhole they make rouge frigate holes a serious threat far greater than I think they where supposed to be.
While the ships them selves are op one thing that contributes to it is there unhindered use. What I mean by that is that when you loose a T3C you loose a level on a subsystem making you ether wait for the sub to train up again or your next ship will be less effective (unless you have spare cash for an injector).
So what I suggest is the addition of 3 skill books per race for the T3D's each one related to one of the 3 modes. While this wont solve the base problem of them being op but it will prevent there constant use as you wont be able to instantly reship without being at a disadvantage as I believe the biggest problem with them is there constant use why fly an assault frig gang when you can use these and then instantly reship if you die.
While as I said this wont solve the base problem I believe it will reduce their use slightly and bring in more of a kick for getting one blown up and then I believe balance may be a tad easier from there.
Anyway what do you guys think? Good? Bad? And why? Try not to just say that its a horrible idea as I would much rather hear why its a horrible idea. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
12995
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Posted - 2016.09.18 12:29:45 -
[2] - Quote
I think that it would've been much better placed in the correct sub-forum...
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
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michaeltward
Fallen Sentinels
1
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Posted - 2016.09.18 12:36:07 -
[3] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:I think that it would've been much better placed in the correct sub-forum...
Ah.....I thought the ships&modules was the best place. What should I have posted this in? |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
684
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Posted - 2016.09.18 12:49:15 -
[4] - Quote
I don't have a horse in this race, but this specific idea has been brought up before, and subsequently shot down. I have to say, I lean more towards "sp loss" not being a good way to balance a ship.
Think about it, if a ship is really good, and you know how to fly it well, then you're not going to lose it as often. Therefore, having an extra kick in the shins every time you explode isn't much of a drawback. If you're a particularly slick guy who can smell a trap a mile away, you might never die in your T3 ship. If you don't die, it's never a drawback.
The ship has to be balanced, pure and simple. I'm not saying it is or isn't balanced right now, I"m just saying a "truthism" that can be applied to any ship. Titans can't be isk balanced, T3 can't be balanced by SP. In fact, no ship can be balanced by sp, either by loss, or by "long train" (an old argument as for why Ishtars supposedly weren't oppressive - drones are a long train). Isk, resources, and time are basically limitless in this game, so long as you have sufficient of one or two, to grind the other(s). So the only way a ship can ever be balanced, is by what it can do, not what it does to the pilot after it explodes.
All that said, I hear a lot about T3Ds, and I think the only big problem with them is speed. They shouldn't be faster than the next smaller class - that alone wrecks one of the primary pillars of balance in this game (bigger ships are always slower). If T3Ds must have a "speed" mode, it needs to nerf their agility like an oversized afterburner does. Perhaps even moreso. So if they want to outrun frigates (the fastest ship class in the game), they pay with it by having the agility of a pregnant whale so frigates can still maneuver better.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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michaeltward
Fallen Sentinels
1
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Posted - 2016.09.18 12:55:02 -
[5] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote: and I think the only big problem with them is speed. They shouldn't be faster than the next smaller class - that alone wrecks one of the primary pillars of balance in this game (bigger ships are always slower). If T3Ds must have a "speed" mode, it needs to nerf their agility like an oversized afterburner does. Perhaps even moreso. So if they want to outrun frigates (the fastest ship class in the game), they pay with it by having the agility of a pregnant whale so frigates can still maneuver better.
I like that. That is very logical and I also see where your coming from with the skills though I do think T3D's are a little to easy to train into. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
832
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Posted - 2016.09.18 13:23:32 -
[6] - Quote
Skill loss never stopped t3 spam.
Mix in the shiny market bubble burst (some tiny mods cheap as hell vice the "old day"), you can put some isk up to recover lost ability to level 4 and not 5.
And to fix af, seems to be elusive goal that avoids CCP. And its odd, I sense CCP knows exactly what is wrong with the class as a whole. Its just any fixes for these....they don't put here. They put the fixes into faction/pirate frigs. And now t3d.
I remember when pirate frigs fresh and new to the server. And they got real popular real fast. Pirate like release Dramiel looked at the laundry list of what was wrong with t2 frigates, wolf and jaguar in the case of minmatar, said I can solve most of this. And many did did just that, fixed the problems. And in doing that made t2 frigs (af especially) even less desirable to fly.
Its almost like CCP is going we know whats wrong, but we can't fix it on a dirt cheap frame. So lets put it on pirate/faction frames, now t3d. Which hits that wall CCP likes to slam thier head into a bit too much it seems. the wall of control by cost has never worked. Even before the multitude of new isk faucets in this game you found ways to scrape up the isk for dramiel in the old day. Extra isk was truly worth the effort.
Now you rat a bit more for t3d. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18055
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Posted - 2016.09.18 19:28:47 -
[7] - Quote
Svipul could use a bit more grid.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
33
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Posted - 2016.09.18 20:23:28 -
[8] - Quote
michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released.
my other nano is a polycarb
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oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2016.09.18 21:11:46 -
[9] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released.
Is that due to bad game design or flawed conception?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18056
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Posted - 2016.09.18 21:35:19 -
[10] - Quote
oiukhp Muvila wrote:Nikea Tiber wrote:michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released. Is that due to bad game design or flawed conception?
Basically the AF niche of "expensive, somewhat slower but rather tougher frigate" is simply far too small to sustain 8 ship types in a game that already has destroyers, T2 destroyers, T3 destroyers, Interceptors, pirate frigates and fast cruisers. And 90% webs and large neuts and Guristas drone bonuses.
AFs need something that only they can do, or else CCP should remove the class, post an apologetic Haiku and let everyone get the 1M SP refudned and get on with their lives. Whether it's immunity to having their MWD disabled or a 400% damage bonus and 90% damage reduction vs Drifters or I don't even know, whatever, something, there simply has to be a specific reason to fly them.
If CCP did something as banal as reduce the material costs so that they only cost 4-5m each, and maybe jiggered with the weapon bonuses and slots so that they only needed 2 turrets each, so that you could undock one for ~10m ISK instead of 30m, and reduced the Assault Frigates skill to Rank 3, even that might help. At least then they'd have a role as the entry-level super cheap T2 ships. Heck, allow Alphas to train the AF skill. That'd give them a genuine role!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
832
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Posted - 2016.09.18 22:55:50 -
[11] - Quote
oiukhp Muvila wrote:Nikea Tiber wrote:michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released. Is that due to bad game design or flawed conception? Malcanis covered flaw concept. Some are bad design.
Jag by design is the arty boat wolf the ac boat. In practice its the other way around. Wolf has the better specs for arty oddly enough. Even odder is if you accept your tank will be CDFE, a resists rig and DCU only...you actually can live with that since it can be a decent setup and you live and die by tank by range. Also resolved the funky 2 mid slot setup....prop and lr point, now it made sense. TBH I and others have asked ccp to switch the bonuses around here and we'd be more content lol.
Caldari....why fly their t2. Unless a small rail sock sniffer there's the mordu option. get that range (on tackle too), get that speed.....yeah, just bear a bit more to make that money and be happier.
Or worm to be honest if you have good drone skills. Good drone and missiles...have a ball really.
Like I said....CCP has put some nice fixes for frigs out there, just not on af's.
Do like malcanis' idea for alphas role bonus. It be a unique bonus since its safe to say ccp won't overturn the killed AB bonus they killed on sisi many year ago. They missed the boat with the MWD bonus. As, well, many ran these AB for years anyway. It wasn't the sig bloom of the MWD, it was lol fooled you, MWD scram hit doesn't work on me effect. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18057
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Posted - 2016.09.19 05:47:23 -
[12] - Quote
Sansha ships own the AB role bonus now;AFs will never have it.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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oiukhp Muvila
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
104
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Posted - 2016.09.19 10:29:02 -
[13] - Quote
AF scram immunity sounds interesting. I agree with Jag ac turret falloff bonus as well. Lower build cost is also an interesting idea.
Tech II ships on free accounts, I'm not sure, but could be interesting.
I'd like to see a reduced subscription clone like maybe 2.50 a month and get basic racial T2 Frigate capability and maybe all race Alpha capability. |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
69
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Posted - 2016.09.19 21:12:17 -
[14] - Quote
Well i was thinking of a Omni tank (depend on faction), around 75% but will NOT be able to fit anymore resists. Example Harpy: 75/75/75/75 Shield resists and 50/86/62/10 Armor resists and CAN NOT use shield resists modules. |
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
33
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Posted - 2016.09.20 00:46:25 -
[15] - Quote
oiukhp Muvila wrote:Nikea Tiber wrote:michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released. Is that due to bad game design or flawed conception?
Probably flawed conception compared to the overarching meta/design of eve and ship ballance by size. Frigates stay alive through speed and agility. The main problem with assault frigates is they have reduced apeed and agility vs thier t1 counterparts. Once you remove the speed and agility advantage frigates have (which is pretty small to begin with vs medium weapon tracking), you actually have to rely on the local tank of a small module. The loss of agility and base speed with an AF means you are a lot more reliant on your local tanking abilities to survive. Having assault resists is helpful, but on the armor side of AFs, you don't have enough low slots to fit to the resist profile a HAC will typically have as well as fit the risk low slot faire of damge, application, or mobility mods. Adding a plate only accentuates the speed and agility issues, which may be a moot point anyhow because every single AF has tight fitting, either PG, CPU, or more commonly, both, so having logi in your gang barely overcomes the inherent problems of a reduced resist profile, small ehp buffer, and reduced mobility ensuring dps will land rather than miss. On the shield side of things it isn't any better, since your all important tackle and prop mod are now competing for hardeners, a booster, or extender. Lack of mids is a problen with all AFs, and is compounded if you need to fit buffer or resists.
When you look at the stats of an AF, is pretty obvious that they are meant for survivability, and maybe a bit more damage than a t1 frigate. Since they have less mobility, maybe the right role for them is to stick with the ships of the line and logi and keep fast tackle off of them, except this role could be filled more efficiently with a t1 destroyer or t1 attack/skirmish cruiser set up to frig swat. They pack a bit more punch than a standard t1 combat frig, that is for sure, but even for a fast roaming gang where you want everyone to stick to frigates, you will get better results with warp speed rigged dessies as your ship of the line, since they have much better projection, and are insurable.
AFs have been getting wrecked by t1 dessies since their inception. Since 'dictors outside of the weren't as useful for frig popping (vs launching your probe and gtfo), T2 dessies had little bearing on the problems with AFs, they are still a bit faster than a dessie, but don't have nearly the dps or projection of a dessie. A t3d in propulsion mode has little issue outrunning an AF. Having 3 modes really removes some of the drawbacks of having less module slots compared to a cruiser
my other nano is a polycarb
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Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
33
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Posted - 2016.09.20 02:36:38 -
[16] - Quote
Deleted
my other nano is a polycarb
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Lanstus Tekitsu
SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2016.09.21 01:43:24 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:oiukhp Muvila wrote:Nikea Tiber wrote:michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released. Is that due to bad game design or flawed conception? Basically the AF niche of "expensive, somewhat slower but rather tougher frigate" is simply far too small to sustain 8 ship types in a game that already has destroyers, T2 destroyers, T3 destroyers, Interceptors, pirate frigates and fast cruisers. And 90% webs and large neuts and Guristas drone bonuses. AFs need something that only they can do, or else CCP should remove the class, post an apologetic Haiku and let everyone get the 1M SP refudned and get on with their lives. Whether it's immunity to having their MWD disabled or a 400% damage bonus and 90% damage reduction vs Drifters or I don't even know, whatever, something, there simply has to be a specific reason to fly them. If CCP did something as banal as reduce the material costs so that they only cost 4-5m each, and maybe jiggered with the weapon bonuses and slots so that they only needed 2 turrets each, so that you could undock one for ~10m ISK instead of 30m, and reduced the Assault Frigates skill to Rank 3, even that might help. At least then they'd have a role as the entry-level super cheap T2 ships. Heck, allow Alphas to train the AF skill. That'd give them a genuine role! AFs are probably only good for maybe, MAYBE, burner missions but even other ships do better. like a bomber or something of those sorts. I guess they can be useful in ATs? No clue. But they really need to get a real use out of them. Being a bad ship isn't a good reason to have them. Like I know one AF used in FacWar but that's because it's a longbower. Nothing else but that and doesn't fill any other role. Idk. I don't do frigate anything unless it's for a stupid mission or getting higher mission levels but i can fly a cruiser or dessie and do them faster. |
Nya Kittenheart
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
34
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Posted - 2016.09.25 20:14:30 -
[18] - Quote
Problem isn t T3D's ,problem is the Assault frigate line.Because assault frigate are weak T3D's are insanely powerful . If CCP would give to Assault frigate the same bonuses than Special Edition Assault Frigate T3D's wouldn't be an issue anymore... Anyway giving the nerf bat to t3d's will only increase ressentment against CCP, because they are fun and versatile ships. They just dont have natural predators. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1414
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Posted - 2016.09.26 01:21:51 -
[19] - Quote
Nya Kittenheart wrote:Problem isn t T3D's ,problem is the Assault frigate line.Because assault frigate are weak T3D's are insanely powerful . If CCP would give to Assault frigate the same bonuses than Special Edition Assault Frigate T3D's wouldn't be an issue anymore... Anyway giving the nerf bat to t3d's will only increase ressentment against CCP, because they are fun and versatile ships. They just dont have natural predators.
Most tech one cruisers can kill the tech 3 destroyers very easy.
I like the idea of giving the assault ships the tournament ship treatment and have them have the overheat bonus like the tournament Hawk does. And for the love of Sansha, why is the Vengeance a better rocket boat than the Caldari one??
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18200
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Posted - 2016.09.26 08:15:17 -
[20] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:michaeltward wrote:
The T3D's are obviously op no one really disputes that. They have made assault frigates practically irrelevant
AFs have always been in a bad place compared to basically every single T2 hull class, T3ds only accentualted the gap; AFs have been pointless since they were released.
AF were one of the more common ships you could find before T3D landed. They were in a good position and don't need work. |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2228
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Posted - 2016.09.26 12:05:31 -
[21] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Sansha ships own the AB role bonus now;AFs will never have it.
AF would be fixed if they got an AB speed bonus to get them to just under MWD speeds using AB. It's been discussed and discussed and discussed. It is the fix.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say about sansha owning AB role bonus. There is no lore or tech reason for AF to not have AB bonus. It's like saying Blood Raiders own the neut role bonus... what does that get you? |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1417
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Posted - 2016.09.26 13:59:21 -
[22] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Malcanis wrote:Sansha ships own the AB role bonus now;AFs will never have it. AF would be fixed if they got an AB speed bonus to get them to just under MWD speeds using AB. It's been discussed and discussed and discussed. It is the fix. I'm not sure what you are trying to say about sansha owning AB role bonus. There is no lore or tech reason for AF to not have AB bonus. It's like saying Blood Raiders own the neut role bonus... what does that get you?
I know the answer to that because everyone else wasn't here at the time or they forgot in case they have been.
Back in the day of my early steps in New Eden, we didn't have rigs or gun grouping and all the ships we had back then had much more generous fittings.
Anyhow the nosferatu module was a very important module back then because it always gave you cap from a targeted ship. The blood raider ships have that very same bonus now but most pilots haven't experienced the unlimited draining power of that module they have.
What I see them doing is fitting trollgorns like terrible fit Curses about to commit suicide. They yolo all their resources into 29589+ƒ2850278969235 neuts to neutralize one boat.
Since the pirate ship rebalance I only saw 4 correctly fitted blood raider ships that utilized that very bonus.
As for assault ships, I would rather see them have no capacitor penalty for having a mwd on and the special ability that nothing can turn that mwd of. And that overheat bonus.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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