Let me recap.
Cannot be scanned because cloaked most of the time.
Never in one place long enough to be scanned.

One has to ask why are we even discussing a bonus that is simply worthless in your opinion?

If you cannot scan because cloaked then the bonus has no affect on the situation so why does it bother you that these ships have it?

If they are never in one place long enough to be scanned, again why does it bother you that these ships have it?

You all think it is worthless, I disagree. Traffic control delay's and just plain bad luck on the Jita gates have put me at risk on more than a few occasions and there is no doubt that immunity to cargo scanning has been a part of why I have, at least to this point been able to avoid being ganked at those gates. There are after all a lot of gankers that will not roll the dice on a ship when they know nothing about what may or may not be in your cargo hold.

Sry i m confuse i believed this bonus to apply a big red dot on every blockade runner, and now you tell us you want to switch this bonus on an ever more expensive transport with less evasive capability ?

-Lets face it ,high sec gankers want this bonus to be removed ,because they cant predict if they are going to make profit from instablapping that ship or not.I'm not surprised, high sec gankers always want winning lottery ticket,too bad for them CCP has been wise enought to prevent this from happening.

-The bonus work as intended ,there is no reason to fix something that work perfectly fine.

You make it sound like randomly getting ganked is a bad thing.

Riddle me this batman, you have 16 other ships to fly besides the one with the bonus that you should be using if this bonus bothers you, why must all other players give up this because you don't want to exercise the use of the other 16?

See how that works, the wreathe is one of the fastest ships (in the class), out there, use it if you worry about gankers not being able to see a menu, by doing what your asking takes away from everyone else who uses it for exactly what it is designed for, I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens), and taking this away won't stop folks from blowing it up for the lolz, they do it now (pop ships just because without regard to profit).

I'm pretty sure the only folks complaining about this bonus are those who wish to interdict a BR in hisec with a guaranteed potential payoff - too bad so sad chaps. Seriously, if you need to be sure that the boat you're ganking is full o' isk, then you're not really that good a pirate are ya' laddie - ARRRR ARRRR ARRRR???

Here's the dealio - lose the pacifier and just decide if you have the chimichangas to go for that boat - totally up to you. But certainly don't get your buddies together to spam a forum-board to try and get CCP to nerf my boat simply becuase you might be too afraid to lose your baby tears...

KEEP THE IMMUNITY!!!!!

...or put a better way...

If it ain't broke...don't FRAK with it (yes - BG forever)

o7 brahs...

PS: I'm runnin' the routes to\from Jita almost nightly - if you have said chimis, then come on up and take yer' shot - be glad to have ya...and so will CONCORD -

Spoken like a true pirate albeit a poor one at that...

Who writes this stuff for ya'??? Seriously??? MORE DANGEROUS??? LOLOLOL...here's the thing my lil pirate toddler - if you're the one NOT flying the BR, then why would you care - doesn't hurt you ESPECIALLY given it's not actually more dangerous...well at least not for GOOD pilots. And if you are flying the BR, then simply put in your description "I HAVE ISK ON BOARD" and be done with it. And then of course you could just NOT FLY A BR...Yeah I guess you forgot that there are other cargo ships...DOH...

Nice try though - I'm sure some small number of folks out there will believe this crazy pirate FUD...(queue talking parrot now)



Oh poor you - gankers came off worse??? Really - awww the big bad CCP made it harder for you to steal shtuff??? Awww how dare they...they took your candy...DUDE - is your lip quivering? Is your diapy dirty??? Listen bro-squeemish...Be a BETTUH PYE-RATE or GET A NEW JOB...either way you do need to lose the big rubber sucky thing...it's unbecoming...

Nuff sed - Game set match CHAMPIONSHIP - Im done here...

I really can't believe you 2, are you 2 actually posting this, you do realize what your posting and using derogatory terms towards others...I'm face palming

Throw my lot in with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The unscannable ability might be redundant, but it's not hurting anything to be there.
And it thematically fits, so that's a pro to keep it as-is.

Honestly, removing it would be a waste of resources.

-1

--Gadget

That's an opinion. The inability to be scanned allows more options of flying it.

If its not profitable, gankers will eventually stop. No one should be flying an unscannable ship if it costs them more than 1% of their isk to lose it.

suicide ganking has always been nonsensically ridiculous content.

if they removed the bonus and people stopped, then content is removed.

if they removed the bonus and people didn't stop, then removal didn't matter.

People find it profitable to blow up a 130 mil ship with a sub 100 mil ship. Adding or removing Unscan will not change that, because in a war of attrition, the loss wins.

I'm seriously considering the possibility that this whine about immunity of cargo scanners is coming from poorer sections of the gank community who are frustrated at losing tornados and not getting a payout. Those with 100+ billion backing them are not complaining. The ganks will not stop if Unscan is removed. People will still find it valuable to blow up ships of greater value with lesser value.

I'm still not seeing a problem, or rather maybe I see a problem that people are overlooking in favor of bitching about Unscan. People can be perfectly safe in highsec with tricks that've been figured out which were not considered when the game was designed. As well, suicide ganking was not considered either when the game was designed.

Lets say Unscan goes away, you'll still have people shooting empty BRs because of the cost to the hauler. If you're a BR user and complaining about random attacks, you're not going to get attacked any less. If you're a ganker complaining about random attacks, then you're taking a risk and losing the gamble, as you should.

There is literally no substance to these arguments you're all making in favor of its removal.

Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.

This is fantastic news that I was unaware of. Is that why I don't see drone-on-ceptor bubble camps any more too?

Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?

Curious about your opinion on passive targeters.

Right, my point is that the "counterplay" argument seems like it would apply to passive targeters versus active tanks on other transports, not BRs.

If the idea here is that both parties in this theoretical gank have to do stuff/make decisions in response to stuff.

So, basically, if scan immunity is bad for ganking meta, aren't passive targeters bad for the ganking meta along a very similar line of logic?

By that logic, though, isn't a blockade runner going through gates in hisec only doing one thing?

So, long way of saying "it seems Ok as long as we are OK with PTs being a thing that exists"

You're basically saying because frigs with sebos are the most common use of a PT they're the only possible use while stating all of the possible uses of the BR.

Also, the counter to the PT is similar to the counter to the BR bonus. Fit different **** before you undock and roll the dice.

balance wise they seem really similar to me. Niche use things that don't have really catastrophic effects on the meta.

Let me say that instaundock and perfect safety was not an intended gameplay mechanic. Remember when concord didn't even exist?

Instaundocks were a cute use of the invuln timer on undock. So was the development of suicide ganking to get around concord. Both are quite lame.

I've said it before, removing the bonus will not affect anyone who warps in complete safety using the tricks of the trade, nor will it save any empty BR from random attacks, because a tornado costs less than a BR and is an easy trade for anyone bored enough.

One last try, this is the point, I like having the bonus, you don't like having the bonus, you have choices in 16 other hulls to choose from, I have only 4 to choose from, take the bonus away and now I have no choices.

"You don't chose this ship for the cargo scan immunity"
I do, I don't want a self appointed "Caldari customs officer" knowing what I have or don't have, intel is just as valuable as some cargo.

Also the Wreathe is extremely fast with the right fittings and pilot.

I've not read the whole thread, but blockade runners get nothing from scan immunity, so remove it.

Whether they *need* another role bonus I don't know.

Hmm, the lightweight +2 warpcore stab bonus? Sharing it with DSTs isn't so bad.

edit: and maybe give DSTs nullification: if they can get their fat arses out of dodge then they can run?!

If they are impossible to stop then removing the bonus is a moot point, and then it does stand that keeping it to have a covert operation is the point of the ship.

There are many other ship that can use the covert ops cloak, while not as large of a cargo hold they still can do the job at lower volumes.

There are many scan alts that sit Aaaaaaallllll day long scanning ships as the pass by on their way to Jita or other places, everyday 7 days a week nearly 23 hours, for example "President Mr Trump" and the other scan alt Valestrae Morren sit all day between New Caldari and their gates related to destinations towards Jita, every time I pass thru I hear the sound that they are scanning me, go see for yourself, one flies a condor the other a heron.

If I and others are forced to fit against ganks on our mining ship and lose yield only for others to say too bad you need to fit your ship against ganks, so we do, why can't others also use the available tools/ships to deal with this problem, I often times fly a Venture to make my loss as cheap as possible, this also makes me unattractive to gankers because it's too cheap to be worth bragging about, I also fit civilian mining lasers, if and when it happens it won't be worth their time, same reason I fly cheaply fit ships, because I'm not giving up a pay day to nobody.

Even right now I'm doing salvaging of wrecks all over whilst letting others fight over the "skins" and other drops, why, cause they are after the riches I'm after my own ends, building rigs for myself.

If anything, if it is so important to you and others I would support removing the bonus "IF" we can fit a rig or mod with no drawbacks to keep the ability.

I prey you don't run PL strategic forces.

Listen, give the Wreathe a try, I will pimp fit a Wreathe out for you (at no cost), I build them, have them all over new Eden, I build T-2 mods for them (I got them in the oven now), I have agility rigs for them, believe me, they are fast, I will even throw in WCS.

In a Wreathe I typically carry cargo expanders, agility mods, and warp core stabs, they take very little space and give me the ability to fit for the situation I find myself in.

oh god.

This is like someone saying "you force me to beat you when you make me angry". No, you are not forced by anyone to randomly attack BRs. That is YOUR choice.

That is exactly what choice means. You have options.

I see the two sides going back and forth on this and I'm left wondering if BRs are too easy to pop uncloaked. Certainly if it's worth popping BRs left and right with no idea of their cargo then something is wrong with the profit equation. If gankers can legitimately afford to gank all BRs they come across perhaps ganking is a bit too profitable when BRs are concerned. Maybe a better mechanic would be if BRs destroyed all their cargo on death. Kind of a self-destruction option. Can't get caught with elicit goods if there's nothing left after being blown up.

That said, I can see both sides of the argument a bit, but for those worrying about the fact that you can't just leave a BR sitting around empty anymore. We can simply instruct the BR pilot to fly a random distance from a celestial and stay cloaked. Who the hell leaves their BR uncloaked for longer than they have to?

This statement is false.
Blowing up the ship IS the game play style and that will always be there no matter what happens to the cargo. The only thing the idea of having the cargo destroyed when the ship blows up does is remove the possible profits from that game play style.

When others ask for changes to the game that would make their semi AFK game play easier (like nerfs to ganking) you can be counted on to say no because AFK is bad and you deserve to die because AFK. And yet here you are supporting an idea because it would make YOUR AFK game play easier. They call that a double standard, or possibly being a hypocrite.

What's so wrong with making gankers have to guess.

Sure, I'm out ISK, but so are they. Partly, I imagine, that for every ganker who will blow up the BR without knowing, there are a lot who won't. Just because there's one "killer" out there doesn't mean a player's chances go up when there's fewer out there willing to do the deed.

You know why I ultimately support having scan immunity? Because it's cool.

I'm still lost on how it increases risk to haulers

Not shooting a BR is now not playing eve at all? WOW. I guess I've never actually been playing.

CCP prevents us from posting KB links. Mine died to this last week on an alt. Wednesday night. I know I am just one km/lm lol.

But yeah an impasse. I still say change bonus to faster warp speed or even BLOPS cloaked velocity bonus would be nice. MY crane that died in Jita did clear bubbles with MWD cloak trick once or twice. I won't lie...it be nice to be faster to do this after your mwd slide boost into cloak clears. Or the faster warp to shave of seconds no hyperspatials. Which have the downside of increased sig radius....which can mean faster locks. edit: faster warp speed angle eyed is harder to catch on the end of the warp. Example I used before was pipeline systems with no stations (or no station access). You go gate to gate...something can beat you to the other side. Lets make that part a bit harder maybe. Give usually lower sp inty pilots a chance to be he hero tackle best case.

These more in them with blockade running to me. You are running from the blockade. If the blockade has locked and scanned you...you failed to run fast enough. You know, like American football. The running back would prefer to see that hole, run through it and to the end zone he goes. Its not fun or good for the body when caught and tackled by 300 lbs of muscled up edit: defensive line man all day long for 2 yards gains.

A crazy bonus would be the ability to activate the cloak while under the gate cloak. I know it would be massively overpowered. In reality, there are other bonuses I would accept besides scan immunity. Though, again, without hard data it would be hard to determine. I fly very differently into Jita than I do other places. I think Jita tends to develop "professional" gank squads, and you rarely get those in the other trade hubs and certainly not in open space very often. So when I'm thinking about people who might gank you I'm also thinking about those individuals who are pure opportunists. I've had people target me and, I presume, scan me off a gate in high sec. They're new. They're looking for a score and they probably fail a lot, but scan immunity probably makes them think twice before targetting you.

We're about to have a whole lot of new players, if the alpha clone thing is successful. A lot of them are going to try and gank people and a lot of them aren't going to be doing it well. I've generally found that, in life, people tend to avoid things of high uncertainty and potential dubious reward. It's only those few people who take the long view or dedicate themselves for other reasons that become successful.

Anyways, we don't have hard data. And killboards won't help with knowing how many BRs survive because they weren't shot at. I guess you could compare successful (non-explody) trips to Jita by BRs vs non-BRs as a percentage of total trips by BRs vs non-BRs. But until that data comes around everything is speculation by a populace with very different experiences. In other words, your mileage may vary.

This kind of statement is the start of a lot of wrong assumptions. The number of times it's been said that it's just common sense or a natural conclusion where the second part was just plain wrong is staggering. There's a reason that scientific study doesn't work this way. There's a reason governmental institutions are data-driven. Why large-scale companies are data-driven. Individual pattern recognition is often wrong because we can't see the whole picture and our life experiences color our decisions.

So you'll excuse me if I wait to see actual data on this.

For every time the crowd gets one right there are dozens they get wrong. Pointing to past successes is like pointing to times you rolled 7 after the fact and pointing out the dice frequently roll seven.

And, yes, I looked at zKill when this conversation started and it still doesn't tell you how many people didn't shoot because they weren't guaranteed a good score. Under your logic BRs should never make it through any gank setup at a gate in high sec, but I know, for a fact, that they do. Uncertainty may not stop you from risking it, but it certainly stops a lot of people. How many? We don't know because we don't have any data on this. So, you'll pardon me if I wait.

I do understand what you're saying. I have from the beginning. You're trying to protect the ship and I'm trying to protect the cargo. The odds are the same of the BR getting blown up regardless. But the odds also seem to be less than a non-BR industrial carrying the same 100B in the hold, partially because of the bonus. If someone knows I have 100B in the hold, I'm going to get ganked. Even the newbie is going to take a shot for 100B. But if they can't know what I have, then there are going to be a certain number of people who never take the shot making it more likely that my 100B of stuff survives.

The ship's job is to protect the cargo from point A to point B.

If scan immunity makes the cargo significantly more likely to survive compared to another industrial where the gankers would know, then the bonus is totally worth it.

Even at the cost of some empty BRs. I don't mind losing a few empty ones. It makes it more likely they'll question whether it's even worth it.