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Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.23 18:32:00 -
[1]
I'm making this post in the light of the recent events, i think people should stop moaning about being robbed and just make their alliances work.
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online, because in a democratic organization the power belongs to the people/members and it takes only one "bad seed" to ruin the effort of thousands. That being said only dictatorial alliances/corps can "win" because there's only one person that controls and has access to everything and he needs people to reach his goals, he can throw some bones around to make his lieutenants happy, lieutenants provide some small victories for the members (the plebe) and the muppets that act as slaves and cannon meat and eat what members throw away.
Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?
I hope this helps.
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.03.23 18:42:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.
Hmm, I would think that EVE corp/alliances are quite democratic.
The difference to RL is the freedom to move in EVE. It's not very easy to move to another country IRL for alot of reasons.
One could argue that you vote in EVE, not very different to how you vote IRL, as you chose which person that will represent you by joining that corp/alliance.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
quellious
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.23 18:45:00 -
[3]
Hum,
For being in a democratic corp running from eve beta release, i can ensure you that democracy is a viable option in eve-online.
I'm not sure that democracy is a good excuse for failure.
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Did you noticed that a pendulum does not swing in deep space ? |
Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.23 18:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: quellious
Hum,
For being in a democratic corp running from eve beta release, i can ensure you that democracy is a viable option in eve-online.
I'm not sure that democracy is a good excuse for failure.
This thread is an open discution regarding trust and loyalty and for the people that want to play in the "big league" not for the corps or alliances that have nothing to lose. They can't be affected by thievery and deceit if they own nothing. As far as i'm concerned they can be as democratic as they want without anyone caring about it.
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
quellious
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.23 19:08:00 -
[5]
Indeed, we are speaking about entyties which have huge things to lose, like capitals, outposts, T2 BPO (like COCD), and such things.
And i maintain that there is not issue with democracy even if you handle assets worst several 100bils.
Just don't let people use the excuse of security to set a dictature.
-
Did you noticed that a pendulum does not swing in deep space ? |
Arii Smith
Caldari
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.03.23 19:52:00 -
[6]
It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.
I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.
Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.
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Fitz Chivalry
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.23 19:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).
Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.
An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.
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Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.23 20:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.
Hmm, I would think that EVE corp/alliances are quite democratic.
The difference to RL is the freedom to move in EVE. It's not very easy to move to another country IRL for alot of reasons.
One could argue that you vote in EVE, not very different to how you vote IRL, as you chose which person that will represent you by joining that corp/alliance.
QTF.
Oh and lol at saying TCF have nothing to lose.
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Trinity Faetal
Gallente
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.03.23 20:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).
Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.
An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.
people like virtuozzo ?
--
Enjoy The Silence |
Havras
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.03.23 20:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).
Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.
An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.
You might want to talk to the guys in Fallen Angels, Fitz, when it comes to being Asshats you can't trust.
Mods: Sorry, I'm in between corps just at the moment.
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Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.03.23 20:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Doppleganger on 23/03/2007 20:48:51
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).
Sorry but this is *******s. There are plenty of people that I would trust in game and who act decently and fear has nothing to do with it, they are just good guys.
An asshat will always be an asshat and vice versa.
QFT
I know of a few corps that were dictatorships and guess who the corp thief was in all those situations? The one person that had their hand in all the cookie jars.
Someone wants to steal it doesn't matter what kind of corp/alliance it is. It only matters that the proper sa***uards are in place to keep it from happening.
{edit} WTF the filter removed f-e-g from the word s-a-f-e-g-u-a-r-d-s?
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Koronos
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.23 21:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
<snip>
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man"
Your sig shed's a bit of light on your take here, however just because the pain of bitterness and/or disillusionment has caused you to make this choice does not mean that everyone has.
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
I hope this helps.
It may help ignore that pain to believe this, but it doesnt have to be that way.
There are many choices that I have made in my course in eve that have not been to my advantage in isk, or happyness and fun - at least in the short term. If I am indeed wearing a mask, it is one of honor, and it does not come off, even if rent by sharp claws.
Koronos
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Allen Deckard
Gallente
WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2007.03.23 21:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Arii Smith
It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.
I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.
Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.
Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.
you really are being serious that you would rather live in a place where you have no choices that honestly amazes me really it does. A place with no choices is what I call prison, it's a punishment in my society.
Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free |
Macmuelli
Gallente
Gallente Mercantile Exchange
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.03.23 21:17:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Macmuelli on 23/03/2007 21:15:01
I think there is only smal ways protecting yourself against robbery etc..
Never give out worthfull stuff.
There is always the option setting roles to parts in the corp hangar etc. that only a small group have acess to it.
a idea for the future ...
To protect yourself against robbery then is an " branding" and "setting a role" of this item.
" branding " means it s not possible for other ppls to put it into there hangars.
( so no more stealing)
" setting a role " means this item can be used for other ppls to set it into production etc.. but not possible to put it into there own hangars.
If the owner of this item wanna trade it etc. he had to accept a trade etc first.
This woud defentiv end up this s... of stealing.
Honor in online games?
U can do what u want (if u dont do anything against the eula etc.) without getting anything bad out of it.
Noone will knock on your door if u be alltime anonym, and dont out yourself on fanfest s or setting picture s of yourself into the net.
The questions are : If this kind of criminal is wanted?
At least coud be come a negativ drawback out of it?
Will ppls stop playing if the cannot trust anyone supported by...?
At least if i woud invest energy for a lot of isk , bying something special and woud be scammed or getting robbed without a chance to get it back my invested time.
I m not sure anymore investing time again.
Whats a human without dreams?.....
DEATH
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
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Liora Vahan
Gallente
Battle-Fleet Gothic
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Posted - 2007.03.23 21:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.
Pakistan, Singapore (while democratic it is in effect a 1 party state), America (effectively an elected dictatorship, not a true democracy)
A legend in my own mind |
Serenity Steele
Rearden Steele
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Posted - 2007.03.23 22:27:00 -
[16]
Meh, you can have democracy in leadership and membership, but you need a good asset security setup to stop the random bad seeds having an impact.
Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert
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Allen Deckard
Gallente
WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2007.03.23 22:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liora Vahan
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.
Pakistan, Singapore (while democratic it is in effect a 1 party state), America (effectively an elected dictatorship, not a true democracy)
pakistan? really? if thats your definition of successfull then it's a sad day truely.
Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free |
Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.23 22:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sextus Licinius on 23/03/2007 22:55:02
There were a lot of incidents of trust abuse when one could give his left nut to vouch for a person and they were wrong. A person online when he's faced with the posibility to gain possesion of some valuable stuff cares less about his "online friends" and more about himself. I have so many examples that i wouldn't know where to start, but i won't name anyone because everyone knows what will happen.
The bottom line is this: an online dude is very unpredictable even if you think you know him. If a guy doesn't have to play by the rules to win, he won't and certainly in any online game common sense laws are not implemented. Of course there are exceptions, but better be safe than sorry.
[EDIT] Oh and to any anyone making refference to real life, my answer is this - 
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
Black Torment
Caldari
Black Omega Security
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Posted - 2007.03.23 23:08:00 -
[19]
Regardless of it being online, behind that character there is a person, and a lot of the people I play with are good people. And they know the same about me. It does only take one bad seed to bring things down but you can take sensible measures to reduce that risk, i.e, reduced access.
Even if you run the game yourself, someones always gonna be trying their hardest to **** things up for you. Democracy is a good thing because nobody is perfect and discussion brings out the flaws in plans, plus when things go wrong theres more people to fall back on, and more people to help sort things out.
Democracy therefore only works when the people in the top seats are willing to listen to each other, and aren't trying to play the dictator game regardless.
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.23 23:19:00 -
[20]
Democracy definitely fails in eve. Eve has given me a whole new perspective on the dictators throughout history. How many of them were evil, and how many just did what they had to do get the job done?
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Ivo D
Minmatar
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.03.24 00:13:00 -
[21]
you are missing the big picture.
there is no democarcy in eve. there is no dictatorship as well.
it is all based on CORPORATIONS, which are involved in business.
the ceo/founder/owner of a corporation runs that corporation the way he/she deems to be most successfull. some choose a more direct aproach in which they control everything. if u r good at it the corp works well. some choose to have more high-class top directors, in a more deocratic way of governing the corporation.
but the thing is... you can always choose to leave. you always have another option. IRL living under dictatorship in many cases leaves you with very few options on how to develop your own life.
unlike real life, as i already said, in eve it is about corporations/companies. it is about private property. if u r the owner - it is totally up to you what u want to do with it. if you are an employee, you can choose wether you want to work for that employer, even if he/she is tiranic. YOU STILL HAVE THE CHOICE
nerf gheyllente. |
HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.03.24 00:35:00 -
[22]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 24/03/2007 00:31:58
hmm... i think your looking at it from the wrong angle.
from the trust point of view, EITHER dictatorship or democracy can be screwed by one person. its happened time and time again to both forms in this game.
Sure, dictatorship typically has fewer ppl w/ their hands in the cookie jar, lessening the odds of a bad apple causing catastrophic damage, but as was mentioned above, what if the leader is the one that is the bad apple?
i think its very accurate to say democratic style govt in alliances commonly fail, but i dont think its for this trust/loyalty reason. Fact is when you get that many ppl involved in the decision making progress, the 'red tape' aspect can wreak havoc more than anything.
No one man can do it all, no matter what you will have to delegate and trust to a certain extent in both styles of govt (and everything in between.) But since this is an online game, you can only trust another person so much (unless you good friends in RL).... so there lies the fallacy in the OP.... form of govt aside you can be screwed by a spy/malicious member no matter what.
While many of you are correct the iron fist approach is the most effective, its not because the dictator doesn't have to trust ppl, thats just silly. Why are dictator govt's more successful than others (typically)?? thats a question for another thread :)
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
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Posted - 2007.03.24 00:35:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Democracy is a proven failure throughout the known Universe and has undermined many civilisations and been the death of many great organisations.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.03.24 00:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Arderich
Quote:
Democracy is a proven failure throughout the known Universe and has undermined many civilisations and been the death of many great organisations.
as has misplaced trust in one all powerful (but ultimately lacking) dictator.
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Gidien Kane
OneHundredRed
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Posted - 2007.03.24 00:37:00 -
[25]
through my experience in eve I have found that there are allot of different people in eve just like in RL.
Some will shaft you with no qualms or remorse.
Some are so nice they will even help you out of game.
Some are so ****** up that they will help themselves to your girlfriends or wives out of game. (I know of 3 such cases)
All in all i think it's a very good sample of real human behavior.
GK- |
munchy
Prison Break Inc.
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.03.24 01:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online
i was part of 2 corporations for over a year in each, both were democratic corps and both worked superbly, one corp being alcatraz a high established and respected pvp corp.
you sir, are letting your ass do the talking.
---
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Poke InTheEye
Anti-BoB Flash Mob
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Posted - 2007.03.24 01:12:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Poke InTheEye on 24/03/2007 01:11:05
Originally by: Liora Vahan
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.
Pakistan, Singapore (while democratic it is in effect a 1 party state), America (effectively an elected dictatorship, not a true democracy)
America is a republic. Ever heard of Congress, The House of Representatives or the Supreme Court? We never pretended to be a democracy.
NO BOB!!!! |
Nyack
GREY COUNCIL
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2007.03.24 01:30:00 -
[28]
there is a difference between democracy and sharing of assets and resources.
A corp can be fully democratic where all members have equal part in the decisions of the corp. what goals they shoudl have what policies, what code of conduct. that doesnt mean that all members have equal rights to all assets. true they all have a saying on how the assets are used but very few actually have access to the assets. i think that is the way almost all corps end up like.
A full dictatorship often doesnt work in eve cause as stated above if the corp members doesnt feel they are part of making a difference they move on to the next corp.
Corp = alliances in the above text written as corps for simplicity
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.03.24 01:32:00 -
[29]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 24/03/2007 01:29:47
Originally by: Poke InTheEye
Edited by: Poke InTheEye on 24/03/2007 01:11:05
Originally by: Liora Vahan
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.
Pakistan, Singapore (while democratic it is in effect a 1 party state), America (effectively an elected dictatorship, not a true democracy)
America is a republic. Ever heard of Congress, The House of Representatives or the Supreme Court? We never pretended to be a democracy.
please dont make us Americans look stupider than half the world already thinks we are 
A Republic is often associated with democracy, but this is not to say they are exclusively mutual.
Our government IS a form of a republic, and it is administered by a representative democracy. (as opposed to a literal (aka direct) democracy which is basically an idea and not a practical or feasible way to run a populace of any size)
but i think we just derailed from the topic....
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.03.24 01:49:00 -
[30]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 24/03/2007 01:46:59
Originally by: Sir Winston Churchill
Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others.
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government. It isn't perfect but then neither is the human race. Communism and Socialism may sound fantastic on paper but the human agenda kinda lets both doctrines down.
I guess in this game corporations tend to be run in a militaristic fashion and there is no democracy in the armed forces.
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Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.24 02:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: munchy
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online
i was part of 2 corporations for over a year in each, both were democratic corps and both worked superbly, one corp being alcatraz a high established and respected pvp corp.
you sir, are letting your ass do the talking.
So your corps worked superbly, you mean like you guys didn't steal each others veldspar? Or is it perhaps that you would benefit more from just enjoing your playtime with them and make even MORE isk and have fun together? I think this second variant is the right answer.
You see this was exactly my point, you worked so great with them because you fulfilled each others needs, so if i gave you an astarte bpo to give it to my aunt DB Preacher you would steal it 99.9% because 60-70 bilions or whatever it costs it would fulfill your needs more than be online friends with me (assuming we're in the same corp).
The refference to my ass is cute indeed, but think about it; if right now my ass is doing the talking imagine what i can do when i type
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
Dahin
Maza Nostra
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.24 02:11:00 -
[32]
If you can't trust someone, he can't be your friend.
If you have no friends, you're better off playing a single player game, or "roleplay" a very, very "bad guy".
Those "bad" guys live like shooting stars. They have their fun but then they burn out because if you can't be part of a community, eve is not for you in the end.
Did you get frequent visits from the underpant gnomes to feel so insecure? :P
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Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.24 03:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dahin
If you can't trust someone, he can't be your friend.
If you have no friends, you're better off playing a single player game, or "roleplay" a very, very "bad guy".
Those "bad" guys live like shooting stars. They have their fun but then they burn out because if you can't be part of a community, eve is not for you in the end.
Did you get frequent visits from the underpant gnomes to feel so insecure? :P
The thread is supposed to be a public discution that could help the community be more carefull about trusting just anyone with a voice on comms and perhaps sa***uarding better the team effort of hundreds of alliance members. I appologize if i have failed you, but your reply doesn't make much sense to me.
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
Le Skunk
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.24 03:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Doppleganger
{edit} WTF the filter removed f-e-g from the word s-a-f-e-g-u-a-r-d-s?
Come on you know what f-e-g means. I demand he is banned!!
SKUNK
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patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.24 05:35:00 -
[35]
Edited by: patteSatan on 24/03/2007 05:32:36
doublethingie, sorry
<br>
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.24 05:36:00 -
[36]
Edited by: patteSatan on 24/03/2007 05:33:06
Originally by: Allen Deckard
Originally by: Arii Smith
It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.
I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.
Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.
Name me one rl successfull dictator country and I can name 10 asshat dictators.
USA is run by both an asshat an a dictator?
What do you call that country?
<br>
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.24 05:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Doppleganger
{edit} WTF the filter removed f-e-g from the word s-a-f-e-g-u-a-r-d-s?
Come on you know what f-e-g means. I demand he is banned!!
SKUNK
f-e-g is privateers in a swedish word?
<br>
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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darkfuntime
Minmatar
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.24 06:10:00 -
[38]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.
A democratic style could work but eve is missing one thing Accountability.Without accountability you cant have a democratic anything,nor a king.Stealing from a corp/corp member is so easy and even if you get busted you can play eve.So democratic style play with eve is a mute point.Without repercussions what we really have is Anarkey (sorry about the spelling)with some good corps/players trying to play with some guidelines yet they have no recourse.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
easyCredits
Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.03.24 08:39:00 -
[39]
Hmm Sextus if you would give me an Astarte BPO I would for sure not give it to DB Preacher.
But the main reason would be, that DB Preacher is not the kind of person I am on friendly terms with, nor do I wish to have him friendly.
Still would not want to come into a situation were stealing is an option. So I would also warn you about trusting such an expensive Item to me. On the other Hand, if you give me the BPO, to hold it until a person that I have also on positive standings comes online, then I would not hesitate to do as you asked and transfer the BPO.
Why? Because there are more needs than money. Trust and Honor are immaterial and can not be quantified in ISK. Sure, EVE is an online game, but behind the avatars are real person and as I came to believe, sometimes even friends.
So I would transfer the mentioned Astarte BPO, because even billions of virtual money cannot by me trust, honor and friendship of the persons behind the games avatars..
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Asylum Seaker
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.24 09:35:00 -
[40]
I beleive that eve is quite suited to democracy, due to the small scale of corporations. Looking from the outside in, burn eden for example appears to be a successful direct democracy. They all have director access. There is no ceo. They make decisions together. It works because of the ease of communication in the eve reality, and the relative simplicity of decisions that need to be made.
Dictatorships are better for massive alliances full of idiots. Beuracracy kills such behemoths. Quick decisions need to be made for alot of things. This can't be done if you need to call a vote every time something goes down.
Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government. It isn't perfect but then neither is the human race. Communism and Socialism may sound fantastic on paper but the human agenda kinda lets both doctrines down.
Bahhh.. Democracy is governmental, socialism is economic. Never heard of democratic communism?
Memento Mori.
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Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar
Narrative Freshfood
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Posted - 2007.03.24 10:21:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 24/03/2007 10:25:16
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Trust no one in an online game.
At some point the CEO needs to trust someone, except he wants to do everything on it's own and risk that some members leave, because of that.
Trust grows over months and years.
Over time the CEO gets to know his mates and usually gives more rights and power to some players, who he thinks he can trust, who might be valuable in a higher position or who he wants to reward with it, because they have done good things for the corp.
And getting to know someone is the most important thing, before you trust someone by 100%.
If I was CEO of a big corp, there would be a small inner circle with 'buddies' that have proven that they are reliable in difficult situations. Over time some newer guys could enter this circle, if they fit in aka have become good buddies, who seem to share similar thoughts about the corp and the game.
So that would be the inner circle with people with full power.
Below that would be other 'managers', who have their responsibilities, but don't have full power and don't know everything that the leadership knows or plans that are not for the public yet.
And below that the usual member, who sometimes gets asked about his opinion, when needed or can make his suggestions, but the final decisions would be only made by the CEO and his buddies/directors in the inner circle, who play the role of advisors in that case.
That would be my approach to trust in EVE corps.
Trusting noone doesn't work, trusting everyone can't work, treating all members equally can't work imho either. Some members are simply more important to a corp than others, especially long-term members, who have already done a lot for that corp.
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Aya Otosaki
Amarr
Grab Bag Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.24 10:49:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?
yup i think molles empire runs on trust.
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Ignorance is my strength. |
FreelancerAlpha
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Posted - 2007.03.24 11:28:00 -
[43]
Better tools for managing hangars & POS (having to let 1 player the access to offline every POS in the region shouldnt be neccesary. Should be able to localise the effects of betrayel).
Better tools for tracking betrayel. As it stands, selling the character allows a person to trade for someone with a clean record but same ISK. Not much deterrent. Character sales must continue, just to fight ebayers. So the only other method is better logging so that corp leaders can clearly identify culprits, and make a post on the forums. This at least may result in reduced bidding for the character, making it more difficult to break even.
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prsr
Gallente
JuBa Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.03.24 11:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Fear makes a human being decent
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.sig apathy ftw |
thoth foc
Elcyion Lacar
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Posted - 2007.03.24 12:00:00 -
[45]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government.
The illusion of democracy suited to the human race.. it lets everyone think they have the power to do something, without the accountability.. and this only really works on mass, which the size of corps currently, this doesnt really give
_________________________
xMenta (DSMA)
xBOS (CA)
xATUK (.5.)
xDICE (BOB) |
patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.24 12:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government.
The illusion of democracy suited to the human race.. it lets everyone think they have the power to do something, without the accountability.. and this only really works on mass, which the size of corps currently, this doesnt really give
I can quote that anyday....
INGAME we need ceo's, alliance leaders and so on, who wont let us do stupid stuff.
<br>
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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Asylum Seaker
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.24 12:25:00 -
[47]
All those ceos and alliance leaders are still in the lead due to a form of democracy. The power of the group comes from the people within it. And those people only give their aid to the group if they agree with the direction the group is going. Otherwise, they leave.. and take a little peice of the groups strength away with them.
Memento Mori.
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Ace Frehley
Minmatar
Black Lance
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.03.24 12:39:00 -
[48]
Originally by: patteSatan
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: welsh wizard
Democracy is better suited to the human race than any other form of government.
The illusion of democracy suited to the human race.. it lets everyone think they have the power to do something, without the accountability.. and this only really works on mass, which the size of corps currently, this doesnt really give
I can quote that anyday....
INGAME we need ceo's, alliance leaders and so on, who wont let us do stupid stuff.
I like to do stupid stuff and I know you like to do stupid stuff aswell patte
Girljerms is more lethal then a fleet of 1000 Tempests
Yeah I¦m nude, I¦m a swede and I¦m armed with bad jokes
[url="http://www. |
Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.24 13:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: darkfuntime
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
2. There can't be democratic style alliances or corps that work online.
A democratic style could work but eve is missing one thing Accountability.Without accountability you cant have a democratic anything,nor a king.Stealing from a corp/corp member is so easy and even if you get busted you can play eve.So democratic style play with eve is a mute point.Without repercussions what we really have is Anarkey (sorry about the spelling)with some good corps/players trying to play with some guidelines yet they have no recourse.
That's a very valid point, i stand corected and overall very nice replies guys.
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.03.24 15:09:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 24/03/2007 15:09:13
Democracy in-game and out cannot work due to the fact that the majority of people are remarkably stupid. The people/members often have little idea what is best for them, let alone what is best for the majority.
The ideal situation is a benevolent dictator... perhaps king/queen is a more comfortable way of putting it due to the many negative associations we have with the word dictator. Although power corrupts there have been a large number of such worthies throughout history.
In a democracy the people are placated, and will generally take a huge amount of abuse before rebelling. Law after law can be passed, which have no benefit to the people, in the name of security. Slaves can be held through currency if not through chains. The few can be elevated and corruption out of control because everyone is scrabbling to the top.
The people act in a manner similar to the lobster who is slowly boiled and doesn't realise getting out of the pot is a good idea.
However in a kingdom/empire a poor ruler will soon find his decrees ignored, his taxmen slain, and the people rebelling if he does not pay them some degree of respect. The leader is secure in their position and has no need to do the popular thing. They are instead free to do, what they consider, the right thing. He is in the end fully responsible for his actions, he cannot pass the buck when his tenure is up, he cannot blame his advisors (well he can, but the fault is ultimately his own for listening or for not procuring better advisors).
I see modern day democratic leaders getting away with "Let them eat cake." style blunders, massive corruption, and a complete lack of concern for what they actually feel is the right thing to do. A few hundred years ago such people would find themselves a few inches shorter very quickly.
In EvE Democracy is perhaps even worse. Due to small group sizes every single muppet can have a vote on every single issue if you wish to take it that far. Even a group of relative genius' all have their areas of expertise and their areas of idiocy. Asides from this all of the above examples of issues with democracy apply. I'll admit no group can be made perfect, none can be immune to corruption, or popularity contests, or foolhardy decisions. However democracy actually promotes these things.
The beauty of EvE is what I consider to be the only form of democracy worth having... the ability to vote with your feet. If you don't like your CEO or your corp/alliances system of leadership it's easy to leave and find one fitting to your personal tastes. Unlike real life you don't lose most of your assets, buddies, or face language/cultural issues. In addition most alliances you seek entry with won't require you to apply for green card / get deported / get shot at the border... at least not if you ask nicely.
[EDIT: I was carrying so many words I managed to drop a few]
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Silentbrick
Caldari
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.03.24 16:40:00 -
[51]
Okay, so if there is no trust in EVE, no well, williness to share and give something of yourself to others....how in the world does my corp exist?
Eve University is dedicated to the selfless ideal of older players teaching the new ones how to play. We donate our time, our isk and our efforts to giving others the chance to learn the game in a corp that really does give a sense of family and friendship. We don't ask for anything in return, service is it's own reward.
As for me, no amount of isk could equal the fun I have leading these wild and crazy noobs into battle, watching them discover Eve, showing them wonders like what a level four looks like and hearing their comments as they find out just how massive and varied this game is.
There is trust in Eve...but as always, it must be earned.
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Talen Reaper
AUS Corporation
CORE.
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Posted - 2007.03.24 17:09:00 -
[52]
Hmm I thought this was a game ..its faceless ....so there is no responsibility other than what you as a person brings to the table ...if you is an azzhat in RL then I would imagine you will be in EVE
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Quincy TawHarr
Minmatar
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2007.03.24 17:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Silentbrick
Okay, so if there is no trust in EVE, no well, williness to share and give something of yourself to others....how in the world does my corp exist?
Obviously, it does not. Since the OP must be correct.
Decent advice I suppose, but its taken to a rather silly extreme. For a corp to exist there absolutly HAS to be trust. Otherwise everyone is just handing their resources to one person. There no sense of team accomplishment in that. In fact if I were a member of that corp I would probably leave, it would suck.
Security is important, but so is trust. The trick is to find the corporations "natural" balance of trust and security (which will also affect how democratic you are IMO). Like nations, this varies between entities and there is no one correct answer. What works for EVE-U may not work for E-O-D and may not work for MC or RA.
Fate, Chance and Destiny; they're all just ways of claiming your successes and dismissing your failures. |
Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.25 01:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Silentbrick
Okay, so if there is no trust in EVE, no well, williness to share and give something of yourself to others....how in the world does my corp exist?
Eve University is dedicated to the selfless ideal of older players teaching the new ones how to play. We donate our time, our isk and our efforts to giving others the chance to learn the game in a corp that really does give a sense of family and friendship. We don't ask for anything in return, service is it's own reward.
As for me, no amount of isk could equal the fun I have leading these wild and crazy noobs into battle, watching them discover Eve, showing them wonders like what a level four looks like and hearing their comments as they find out just how massive and varied this game is.
There is trust in Eve...but as always, it must be earned.
Obviously some people are missing the point here. Your corp/alliance mates will always watch your back and you will watch theirs because this is how an organization obtain victories adding to the pool of the respectives organization glory, thus YOUR personal glory. Brothers in arms will always look for each other and that's a great thing, but when great ammounts of money come into play their loyalty that you people are confusing with camaradery can be priced.
Why is this happening? Because you are online, because you won't be punished, because online you fear nothing, because online your life is nothing more than a clone that it will be activated in a station near you and because your life online worth less than half a tier1 battleship (if you have some skills).
That's why i'm saying be carefull with your assets, not your manlove for another pilot
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
Natalia Fachiri
Minmatar
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.03.25 03:14:00 -
[55]
I much prefer to ignore your advice and risk getting burned, Sextus, then take the other route and never find friends in the EvE-verse. Of course I wont give a random stranger all my stuff. But if I cant trust someone I have known for months or years to look after it and do as I ask with it, why should I even bother to play?
You are wrong, but not on all counts. You overgeneralized this. Some people really will do what you describe. But some wont. Some people return the wallet they find on the street, with all the money still in it, some return it empty and some just keep it. Same in EvE.
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Rebellion
Caldari
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.25 03:56:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Rebellion on 25/03/2007 03:56:21
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?
Just because you can't trust your people doesn't mean we can't trust ours. It just means that you're a poor judge of character. Furthermore, just because you sell isk for real money doesn't mean we do too.
If you can't trust your corporation in EVE, you will not go very far. I don't blame you for not understanding why that is. Given that you think this is "Molle's Empire" suggests that you cannot think very well. Oh, and yes, we do operate on trust. We have since the beginning. It is why we are still here.
Nice troll. Don't make your corporation look even more pathetic than it already is. Don't give advice to other EVE corporations that would just make them worse. "Not trusting" is not the answer, but rather a correct placement of trust.
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JimBob Moving
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Posted - 2007.03.25 20:00:00 -
[57]
For the OP, I am going to rebut your assertion that democracy doesn't work in eve by using the US as an example. In reality the US is a fully funtioning democracy. There are people who disagree with what goes on but they have the right to make their opinions heard. Just because we are in a democracy does not mean each individual is given control of the military or economic backbone of the country. Sure there are thefts and betrayals here and there but by and large most of the people stay true to the ideals and principles the country is based on. The fact that more people are happy and motivated under this system and the resulting increases in productivity outweigh the betrayals of trust necessary to run a democracy. Sure there are people that are more motivated by greed and they abuse that trust, but in the end the others that believe in the underlying ideals of that corp or nation work harder and the nation prospers. This is only possible of course when the people believe in the underlying ideals and in successful democracies like the US this remains true. In a game it is more difficult because there are fewer consequences for betrayal and there tends to be less trust in these situations. This is just a challenge for successful organizations.
The ***** about Molle's "empire" is typical about what happens to prosperous and successful organizations. A bunch of bitter leaders/participants in less successful organizations project rationalizations at the organization that offends them. The BBC and CNN as well as some no-count countries come to mind here.
This is one of those threads that makes you lose faith in much of humanity. To all you bitter retards comparing the US to a dictatorship I understand why you guys whine about the US, but it is sad that most of the people that do it hide behind the same military that pulled most of your asses out of the fire many times over the course of recent history. 
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rgreat
Gallente
OEG
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 20:28:00 -
[58]
Edited by: rgreat on 25/03/2007 20:34:43
Yawn...So boring.
This thread need more flame.
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Don't worry. I struck you with the back of the sword.
Oh, sorry. This sword's double-bladed. |
Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.03.25 20:53:00 -
[59]
ofc do trust and loyalty have a place in a game. Not everyone you will meet will have the same principles but in the end its about how YOU want to play the game yourself.
Im not easily giving away stuff and tbh im most of the time considering i might lose it but thats a risk i will take. Afterall its "game money". Even if i lose all my money ill just cry about the lost friend who i trusted not about the virtual possession.
As for the corps, democracy can work, like a dictatorship and like communism. It depends on many factors. The amount of ppl, the out of game ties of the ppl and and and. In the end no system is perfect because it always leaves the possibility for 1 man, the ceo, to pull the plug.
Once you understood that youve many choices in eve to make. Do you trust ppl ? Join a corp. Want to share your stuff ? Give stuff to ppl on the risk of losing it. Be paranoid ? Make your own corp and be the ceo with limited access for your members. Be superparanoid ? Make your own corp just for yourself and your alts.
Since ive seen how BoB works i know that alot of stuff is for free while other stuff is locked and only accessable on a trust level. Personal managment and a good nose for ppl are here the only thing which keeps bad apples from spoiling. Something u have to admire them for.
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Sahneschnitte
Amarr
Isk Generatoren online
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Posted - 2007.03.25 21:11:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Sahneschnitte on 25/03/2007 21:09:19
Edited by: Sahneschnitte on 25/03/2007 21:08:49
some words
Trust is good...control is better....lenin
I think demcracy dosent realy work. U can vote yes... But if the Ceo has the hangar rights and it goes not his way there is all time a chance that the Vote is effektless.
As long There is no punishment for crime, u had to be carefull all the time.
Ps: to much politcs in this threat ...
btw The Us `s are not the only ones who had end up "World desasters" and save up all or asses.(Russians,England...
Why not investing your Money into schools and bringing " Knowlegde " then bomb with the newest and modernst technolgy?
Play Chess or Eve to end up your Agressions
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Barkel
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Posted - 2007.03.26 06:38:00 -
[61]
*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. - Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
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WETRAIN
Minmatar
R.U.S.T.
Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.03.26 08:03:00 -
[62]
I trust the guys i can beat the **** up in real life... only them 
RUST IS RECRUITING |
Admiral Pieg
Confederation of Red Moon
Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.26 09:34:00 -
[63]
Originally by: WETRAIN
I trust the guys i can beat the **** up in real life... only them
Hehe.. this is the golden rule of any mmorpg. Im sorry but trust has no place in mmo's. Sooner or later some **** is gonna screw you over and excuse his actions with the "its just a game" phrase.
I played ultima online with some guys for almost 6 years and i didnt trust any of them with my assets. Some guy from my school played it for a week or so and i put full trust in him, i loaned him a bunch of stuff and even made him co-owner of my house. Im not saying that my UO buddies werent good people, its just that i dont trust anyone online because of aforementioned reasons.
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Pod from above. |
MiIes Naismith
Amarr
Guru Clan
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Posted - 2007.03.26 19:27:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Arii Smith
It is a lot easier to trust one ironfisted CEO than everyone else is the corp.
I would really rather not live in a democracy IRL or online, the trouble with the people getting what they want is that they are stupid and short-sighted, greedy and capricious.
Not everyone is qualified to lead, in fact a very few are. The dictatorships with good dictators are very successful.
move to china, leaders are forged by situations not born. there has never been a good dictatorship the reason they appear successfull is they tend to murder anyone who dissents. ie stalin friggin idiot
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh 2000 ([email protected]) |
Shosei Weitang
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Posted - 2007.03.26 21:32:00 -
[65]
Cfs was kightly demokratic its dead.
Xetic was democratic its dead.
i hope some older playes know what i mean not this young folk
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Sobic Kurophsky
Incognito Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.26 22:32:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Sobic Kurophsky on 26/03/2007 22:32:20
Going back to the main point....
I would leave all RL examples out of this because my life is by no means in danger if I side with one corp or another. Unless there some anti-whatever serial killer out there.
That being said, I've seen a lot of people think that a "Charter" and "Councils" can do it all and in application it simply does not work that way.
This is a game with people playing from all walks of life and verious ages groups and experience in dealing with people.
Something that is very cool in EVE is that REAL leadership skills come into play. Which from experience I have seen that very few people have and want to know how to lead.
Its really a learned skill and some people have inherent skills that help them be better leaders in one way or another. Meaning some are great combat leaders and some lead a business very well.
So basically it comes down to the people and thats it.
Dictatorship works if the person on top is honorable and smart and puts his alliance and winning first.
A democracy works if your lucky enough to have a group of people that can work together and have counter balancing abilities.
In the end I trust my RL friends in EVE first and everyone else based on there efforts done that I didn't ask them to do.
EVE evolves quickly and takes proactive open minded plays with a RL attitude to win and the experience and work ethic to back it up. Call the system whatever you want.
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Kashre
Minmatar
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.03.27 01:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
1. Fear makes a human being decent, but in an uncontrolled virtual environment with no punishment for any crime, no one really cares about anyone, everything is just business and product exchange and everyone plays behind a mask (some even choose to be slaves).
.
Fear makes people who lack a decent nature act decent... that's why we have laws in the real world.
But DECENCY makes a decent person decent. There is a seriously major distinction there. From a cynic's point of view that probably just translates into fear of God or something, but still... there are people in this game who are actually trustworthy. And just like in real life, there's no way but experience to really tell one type from the other.
+++
"Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
Asylum Seaker
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.27 01:09:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Asylum Seaker on 27/03/2007 01:07:30
Edited by: Asylum Seaker on 27/03/2007 01:07:03
Eve also has the advantage of a pretty good average intelligence for its users. Certainly better than some other MMOs, and perhaps real life. And it is intelligence that lets good democracies work.
"I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."
- Aristotle
edit:
Of course.. it is intelligence which makes a predator deadly or a thief successful.
Memento Mori.
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.03.27 07:25:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Sobic Kurophsky
Dictatorship works if the person on top is honorable and smart and puts his alliance and winning first.
A democracy works if your lucky enough to have a group of people that can work together and have counter balancing abilities.
And there is the problem, for a dictatorship you need only a single smart and honorable person, for a democracy you need the entire group to be smart and honorable.
People change, people have bad ideas, even the brightest of us can be pretty darn dumb sometimes, and even the buddy you believed you could trust after 3 whole years can stab you in the back.
A good dictatorship can only change with the retirement of the dictator or a shift in his personality / policies. Easy to spot, easy to leave. Again, vote with your feet.
A good democracy (probably an oxymoron there though) can be changed by just a few bad apples swaying popular opinion, by a topic coming up people decide on emotionally rather than sensibly, and of course every time a person joins the corp the command structure changes in a subtle way since every opinion must be considered. Not to mention the damage a small number of alt-spies can do to such a corp should they gain a little respect.
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.03.27 08:15:00 -
[70]
Please keep to the subject, and don't bring real life examples into this.
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Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.03.27 11:30:00 -
[71]
I'd only trust someone 100% who I knew in real life (is that trust, them knowing if they steal all your isks they're gonna get a knock on the door?). So few people who play online games are 100% trustworthy it's shocking. Anonymity really does bring out the worst in people. etc, etc. tbh I find real life equally filled with people out to hurt others, no different to the web. perhaps in words, but not actions.
In short, never trust anyone on the web, especially if they seem trustworthy. A truly trustworthy player will always refuse to be in situations where they can abuse trust. Players that want to prove you can trust them are always just trying to see what their own price is. Any trustworthy player will fully respect you not trusting them and will never complain about it. People who complain are discontent with what they have and want more, so you'd be an utter fool to give them everything.
As soon as you drop your guard you will get cluster****** by lesser people. good day o7
Flashing White Box (rank 1) |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.27 15:37:00 -
[72]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 27/03/2007 15:40:29
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Democracy definitely fails in eve. Eve has given me a whole new perspective on the dictators throughout history. How many of them were evil, and how many just did what they had to do get the job done?
With all due respect...while some of the social/leadership perspectives of EvE can have a general translation to RL analogs for some fun appreciation of history....analyzing leadership qualities and governmental styles between an online game and reality is a bit of a naive assumption and one heck of a leap to make.
Unfortunately the forums being what they are it is not really possible to discuss this here. Should we happen to swing through local at the same time I'll elaborate...complete with book list (yeah...bookworm here )after the guns cool off of course 
As far as I can tell....the "benevolent tyrant" and "mafia" models seem to work best in EvE and both are very similar.
With regard to trust...there has to be some element of it in EvE or you may wind up doomed to boring solo play.
Then again....I'm a grunt...which means I own crap...meaning I have little to lose if I get burned  . And I prefer it this way not having to worry about the safety of valuable pixels 
"Lead me...Follow me...Or get the **** out of my way...."
-General George Patton USA
UKC |
Sufjan Stevens
Bauhaus Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.27 15:48:00 -
[73]
Big problem in eve is if you steal from someone you wont goto jail, only thing you got to lose is your rep
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hybridundertaker
Amarr
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.27 18:39:00 -
[74]
There have allways been ppl i trusted and ppl who i have trusted in game even thou i dont know even their rl name. There have been ppl who have trusted me. All this imaginary world doesnt mean much if u cant have good feeling about it and share em wheter it about a gank a fleet fight or mining ops. Betreyal and thievery of imaginary assets are in reality sad for the traitor because the group that got stolen can recover their goods but the traitor will never recover hes feelings.
Also i dont think ppl who steal and cheat in games belong to prison like rl thieves do but many cases do belong to appropriate mental instititions. I mean imagine bunch of kids playing monopoly then one of them suddently grabbing the cards and paper money and sprinting away with it... just to win the game?
EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER |
WETRAIN
Minmatar
R.U.S.T.
Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.03.28 09:37:00 -
[75]
2 kinds of ppl in eve : the people that reflect their personality from RL in GAME
the people that do what they cant do in RL ( steal, hump roids bang cybergoats and stuff)
RUST IS RECRUITING |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.03.28 09:57:00 -
[76]
Don't really understand the complete *snippage* of all RL related comments here. When discussing government and politics within a large group of people your only point of reference is RL present and history. People are real.
Very few political models have been tried here but they all relate to a real world equivalent and you can bet people were thinking of such equivalents when they organised their command structure and policies.
It strikes me as saying, "If it hasn't been done here don't discuss it."
Again with the issue of trust real world comparisons must be drawn, people are lead to be trustworthy or untrustworthy based on past experience and environmental factors, without discussing witch you cannot establish what kind of on-line environment can nurture trustworthyness (sp) or if such is even possible.
I agree that if the thread were to devolve into "my political system is better than yours." comments or national slurring then moderation is in order. Unless I've missed something amongst the *snips* I don't believe the thread has reached that point.
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Sextus Licinius
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.28 13:16:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Rebellion
Edited by: Rebellion on 25/03/2007 03:56:21
Originally by: Sextus Licinius
Example: You think Molle's empire runs on trust? You think he would be ready to lose his tens of thousands of dollars, i mean isk sry, because some nerd with his finger up his nose and the other one in his rear starts stealing titan and mamaship BPO's?
Just because you can't trust your people doesn't mean we can't trust ours. It just means that you're a poor judge of character. Furthermore, just because you sell isk for real money doesn't mean we do too.
If you can't trust your corporation in EVE, you will not go very far. I don't blame you for not understanding why that is. Given that you think this is "Molle's Empire" suggests that you cannot think very well. Oh, and yes, we do operate on trust. We have since the beginning. It is why we are still here.
Nice troll. Don't make your corporation look even more pathetic than it already is. Don't give advice to other EVE corporations that would just make them worse. "Not trusting" is not the answer, but rather a correct placement of trust.
One can't tell people what to think, but can surely talk about it so everyone can share their experience to better avoid anarchy in their turf. Why do i need to explain this to you, is not an esoteric concept. Is ok to be young and rebellious, i expected a bitter BoB reply.
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" |
Malcanis
Galactech Industries Ltd.
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.29 15:57:00 -
[78]
Fear doesn't make people decent; at best it makes them temporarily obedient.
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