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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18531
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Posted - 2017.01.08 11:16:08 -
[91] - Quote
Problem with giving them an overheat bonus means they effectively get that stat boost for most of their fights. |
Rain6637
NulzSec
34740
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:09:34 -
[92] - Quote
okay I see now. a slight heat bonus would be more of a wildcard because you won't know the person's exact fit (and what modules they'll be overheating).
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
25
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Posted - 2017.01.08 21:55:53 -
[93] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Problem with giving them an overheat bonus means they effectively get that stat boost for most of their fights.
You could add a multiplier effect where the more 2X Overheat module bonuses active the more hull damage gets applied to the ship. This could work by activating the ship overheat mode, then all modules that you set to Overheat the get 2X bonus but for each additional module active the damage doubles. So, 5% for one 10% for two, 20% for 3 etc for every 5 or 10 seconds. This would still keep all overheating dependent upon module heat damage, but allow extra power causing hull damage. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18532
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Posted - 2017.01.09 13:05:50 -
[94] - Quote
Deckel wrote:baltec1 wrote:Problem with giving them an overheat bonus means they effectively get that stat boost for most of their fights. You could add a multiplier effect where the more 2X Overheat module bonuses active the more hull damage gets applied to the ship. This could work by activating the ship overheat mode, then all modules that you set to Overheat the get 2X bonus but for each additional module active the damage doubles. So, 5% for one 10% for two, 20% for 3 etc for every 5 or 10 seconds. This would still keep all overheating dependent upon module heat damage, but allow extra power causing hull damage.
Creative but I worry about some of the stats that this would result in. |
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
34
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Posted - 2017.01.09 15:48:50 -
[95] - Quote
Give them a mad overheat bonus but has to be applied to one rack only
so they can double overheat Guns/prop/or tank but not at the same time, they could burst overheat out of bubles in null sec etc, or try to slingshot a fast kiter.
so they do about 2.8 to 3.5k with mwd let them overheat to 5.5k for example for short time.
this means they could get a short burst of speed or tank
would be fun. |
Orakkus
m3 Corp Evictus.
301
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Posted - 2017.01.09 19:42:33 -
[96] - Quote
I think we all are coming back to the same problem in that it seems that no matter what change you make to the AF, there is always something that is available that does it better, or the change starts to invalidate another class of ships.
If you add more speed, well that intrudes onto the Interceptor role.
If you add more tank, well Cruisers are cheaper and still more effective.
If you add more dps, well Cruisers and now T2/T3 destroyers still are more useful and effective.
If you add more utility, then you could be intruding on the EAFs, Logi frigs, or Command destroyers
The only ships that they seem akin to is the Combat Battlecruisers like the Tornado and the Talos. But there again, you are stuck with a cruiser doing it better, cheaper, and with an easier train. None of the other frigate classes have that issue because their usefulness is combined with speed, small sig, and agility. So you will always have a reason to pick an EAF over a Recon, or a Stealth Bomber over a Cruiser, etc. Even within the subclasses there is sufficient reason to choose on type of interceptor over another.
The only options I see are to either a.) make them more difficult to hit (which seems in line with frigate dynamics) or b.) give them the ability to disrupt the battlefield. Either one of the following I think is probably the best bet:
1. Remove the MWD bonus and replace it with the old AB bonus. I think this is one of the better options, as it gives this ship a role as a brawler in close quarters.
2. Remove the MWD bonus and replace it with a bonus to MJD activation and recharge along with a distance penalty. Basically, a Frigate can activate the jump drive instantly, but can only go half as far. Recharge rate will be quicker too, say 30 to 45 seconds.
3. Ability to mount bombs. This has some creative possibilities
4. Ability to mount one Battleship class smartbomb. This would make it a terror against drones and other frigates.. which would be in line with its existence. The downside would be that it could not be used in close proximity to gates.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18316
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Posted - 2017.01.09 20:26:16 -
[97] - Quote
Deckel wrote:The best suggestion I've heard for the Assault Frigate question was to make them the 'Masters of Overheating'. More powerful and maybe better sustained overheat capacity in which they compete or perhaps outperform their competition for a limited time.
A possible mechanic to accomplish this could be to allow AFs to enter a ship-wide overheat mode which literally burns and damages the hull on the ship. While in this mode all modules will operate in their overheat range, (with perhaps increased Cap and/or shield Regen), however the individual modules can also be overheated normally, thus allowing a 2X overheat bonus. All this means that these ships would have a limited window in which they are able to perform far beyond their standard. It also opens the door for strategic hull repair to refuel their burn/overheating capacity.
Choosing an Overheating option to fix them (even if it's not my suggested one) means the AF keeps a very Assault-like feel where it can be tanky, fast, and damaging, allows them to be used for various generalized purposes, makes them fun and challenging to pilot, and should not significantly overpower larger hulls that could likely provide better sustain, if less periodic burst capability.
Overheat bonus is already a feature of T3s.
AFs should have something that's specific to them.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
15052
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Posted - 2017.01.09 20:34:24 -
[98] - Quote
Attack BC treatment. ie Let assault Frigs mount Cruiser sized guns.
You're welcome. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
25
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Posted - 2017.01.09 20:40:29 -
[99] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Overheat bonus is already a feature of T3s.
AFs should have something that's specific to them.
So then another question is, does the Overheat bonus belong on the T3Ds? Also, while the less heat damage that they have is a heating bonus, it is a bonus to sustain, rather than a bonus to projected Max ability and output. There is room for more than one type of heating bonus in the game. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
25
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Posted - 2017.01.09 20:49:22 -
[100] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Attack BC treatment. ie Let assault Frigs mount Cruiser sized guns. You're welcome.
Personally I think it would have been better if they had taken Destroyers in this route as it would be more in-line with Attack Battlecruisers. Frigs seem like they are too small for that. Besides if you want large guns and max dps in a frig you go Bomber. And even if you did go this way with oversized guns, it would only be a fitting solution for one of the two Assault frigs for each faction. What do you do with the other one? |
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Aaron
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
437
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Posted - 2017.01.10 01:08:52 -
[101] - Quote
Leave the AF alone. it's fine as it is.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
44
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Posted - 2017.01.10 02:56:45 -
[102] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Attack BC treatment. ie Let assault Frigs mount Cruiser sized guns. You're welcome.
Did you even read this thread? Cruiser guns on a frigate hull makes for a useless frigate.
Aaron wrote: Leave the AF alone. It's fine as it is
I've been kicking around new eden for about eleven years now. Assault frigates have always sucked, the lack of mobility vs the t1 combat hulls, fitting issues due to weak cpu and grid, and fitting issues due to lack of mids as an entire ship class. Assault frigates suck, and the proliferation of destroyer hulls just makes it worse. AFs need a fitting boost and a role bonus other than mwd sig reduction.
my other nano is a polycarb
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Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
68
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Posted - 2017.01.10 11:35:08 -
[103] - Quote
CCP should give AF natural +2 warp strength like Venture. I bet we will see increase usage of the class. |
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18533
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Posted - 2017.01.10 13:42:41 -
[104] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:Assault frigates have always sucked
Not true.
Before T3D landed they were one of the more common ships used. As I keep on saying the issue is not with AF its with T3D. |
Orakkus
m3 Corp Evictus.
301
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Posted - 2017.01.10 15:49:38 -
[105] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Not true.
Before T3D landed they were one of the more common ships used. As I keep on saying the issue is not with AF its with T3D.
Even before T3D, their "niche" window was tiny, and there really is no effective way (at this point) to penalize the T3Ds to undo reality.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18533
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Posted - 2017.01.10 20:17:49 -
[106] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Not true.
Before T3D landed they were one of the more common ships used. As I keep on saying the issue is not with AF its with T3D.
Even before T3D, their "niche" window was tiny, and there really is no effective way (at this point) to penalize the T3Ds to undo reality.
There is a very good way to hit T3D into shape.
Nerf them down to t1 base stats and have their modes bump them up to t2 level and scrap the e-war resistance. They are now what they are supposed to be, adaptable destroyers. |
Orakkus
m3 Corp Evictus.
301
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Posted - 2017.01.10 20:45:03 -
[107] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
There is a very good way to hit T3D into shape.
Nerf them down to t1 base stats and have their modes bump them up to t2 level and scrap the e-war resistance. They are now what they are supposed to be, adaptable destroyers.
I still don't think that would separate the two well enough. By making those changes, CCP will be forced to make the ship cheaper to build (or else it is the T3D that becomes "niche-less") If you make it cheaper, then it automatically forces itself into AF territory because of price/capability. You also have to consider that even if there is a tangible difference, the niche the AF resides in would still get reduced in usefulness.
No, I think the AF needs some serious out of the box thinking in regards to its role in combat fleets.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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Roger Douglas
Tritanium Industries and Technology Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2017.01.10 21:28:10 -
[108] - Quote
Shift the AF to be the Frigate version of the Combat Recon.
Allow Covop cloak, some speed bonuses, Non-detection on directional scan has been mentioned here.
I'm not sure I'd want the covert cyno, but it's possible.
No web/scram bonuses on the AF. Leave that for the Cruiser Combat Recon. |
Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2017.01.11 07:42:10 -
[109] - Quote
How about this:
- Get rid of the 50% MWD sig radius reduction
- Add a new role bonus: 400% bonus to Afterburner velocity modifier
Assault frigs will now be able to:
- Hit MWD-tier speeds, without any sig penalties, but still considerably slower than ceptors due to their lower base velocity.
- Laugh in the face of warp scrambers!
- When fitted with scram+web, can dictate range on any non-AF ship that comes within scram reach. (MWD ships will get shut down by scram, and AB ships won't be able to keep up with the steroids-AB)
The result is a heavy brawler frigate that's no longer afraid to get close and personal, true to its name of assault frigate. Each race has 2 AFs, so specialize one for point-blank fights, and the other one for fighting at the edge of web range (give it a minor warp scrambler range bonus so it matches the web range). |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
25
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Posted - 2017.01.11 08:25:57 -
[110] - Quote
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:How about this:
- Get rid of the 50% MWD sig radius reduction
- Add a new role bonus: 400% bonus to Afterburner velocity modifier
Assault frigs will now be able to:
- Hit MWD-tier speeds, without any sig penalties, but still considerably slower than ceptors due to their lower base velocity.
- Laugh in the face of warp scrambers!
- When fitted with scram+web, can dictate range on any non-AF ship that comes within scram reach. (MWD ships will get shut down by scram, and AB ships won't be able to keep up with the steroids-AB)
The result is a heavy brawler frigate that's no longer afraid to get close and personal, true to its name of assault frigate. Each race has 2 AFs, so specialize one for point-blank fights, and the other one for fighting at the edge of web range (give it a minor warp scrambler range bonus so it matches the web range).
I'm afraid you went way too far (it is seriously at the joke level) It is debatable that even 2X AB speeds would be overpowered. Those speeds with no signature bloom basically means zero missile damage. You would need triple webs + paints to apply just about any damage to them.
But yes shifting to an Afterburner bonus has been thoroughly discussed and is high on the list of good ideas. Some say that they used to have this and it was overpowered then, so it won't work, but it is likely that this was due to the Old Meta and since things have since changed it could be viable again. |
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Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille Gallente Federation
79
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Posted - 2017.01.11 08:58:11 -
[111] - Quote
Deckel wrote:I'm afraid you went way too far (it is seriously at the joke level) It is debatable that even 2X AB speeds would be overpowered. Those speeds with no signature bloom basically means zero missile damage. You would need triple webs + paints to apply just about any damage to them.
But yes shifting to an Afterburner bonus has been thoroughly discussed and is high on the list of good ideas. Some say that they used to have this and it was overpowered then, so it won't work, but it is likely that this was due to the Old Meta and since things have since changed it could be viable again.
I guess my math is wrong, because it looked like an AF would do about 2km/s with good skills, and double-web would bring it down to 320 m/s. T1 Light missiles with Target Nav IV have 238 m/s explosion velocity, so they'd apply two thirds of their damage, or about full damage if using T2 precision. Target painters not needed at all as their explosion velocity is already smaller than AFs' sig radius, if you put a couple levels into the precision skill. I guess it could be a problem if the AF stacks a lot of prop mods?
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Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
25
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Posted - 2017.01.11 09:26:55 -
[112] - Quote
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote: I guess my math is wrong, because it looked like an AF would do about 2km/s with good skills, and double-web would bring it down to 320 m/s. T1 Light missiles with Target Nav IV have 238 m/s explosion velocity, so they'd apply two thirds of their damage, or about full damage if using T2 precision. Target painters not needed at all as their explosion velocity is already smaller than AFs' sig radius, if you put a couple levels into the precision skill. I guess it could be a problem if the AF stacks a lot of prop mods?
Well, the Succubus already can get 100% bonus to Afterburner velocity, which can give it a AB speed around 1900m/s. The problem with giving this to Assault frigates too is that they have the T2 resist profile as well, and they are cheaper than a Succubus, so you have basically just invalidated the usefulness of this ship, along with quite a few others likely. You could still bring it up to a 25% or 50% AB bonus, but who knows where that perfect spot to balance it is. |
Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
412
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Posted - 2017.01.11 09:43:38 -
[113] - Quote
Some may not remember or wasn't around, but there was a period in EVE history where AFs were really popular. I'm not familiar with fleet doctrines so can't comment on that, but back then it was quite common to do a solo roam in an AF and find another solo roaming AF and have a cracking good fight (even outside of FW zones). Low sec pirates often had pimp setups with a-type reppera, etc.
People would remember those dual ASB Harpy, slaved (or perma repping) Vengence, scram kiting Hawk, Ishkur that could fighy so many things etc. AFs were perfectly viable and fun/popular ships to play even with the same stats as now.
Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18535
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Posted - 2017.01.11 16:38:57 -
[114] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:baltec1 wrote:
There is a very good way to hit T3D into shape.
Nerf them down to t1 base stats and have their modes bump them up to t2 level and scrap the e-war resistance. They are now what they are supposed to be, adaptable destroyers.
I still don't think that would separate the two well enough. By making those changes, CCP will be forced to make the ship cheaper to build (or else it is the T3D that becomes "niche-less") If you make it cheaper, then it automatically forces itself into AF territory because of price/capability. You also have to consider that even if there is a tangible difference, the niche the AF resides in would still get reduced in usefulness. No, I think the AF needs some serious out of the box thinking in regards to its role in combat fleets.
AF are more than able to take on t2 destroyers, we are out here killing them in kestrels and herons. AF are still good ships, a destroyer is not going to tank like a destroyer can (well, they are not supposed to) |
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
138
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Posted - 2017.01.11 16:53:17 -
[115] - Quote
Hum, the only thing that would make them unique would be a bonus for something non other ships has something for to me.
The idea of a bonus to smartbomb mentionned earlier in this thread picked me, maybe not a bonus to fit one large smartbomb, but a bonus to a small or maybe medium for damage, with a correct but not excessive bonus to cycle, but not range, the AF being frigate-sized is enough of a mobility advantage already.
This could make the assault frigate a very capable ships against other frigates, plus and foremost, it would make the ship a little terror against any kind of drones.
That way, AF would be a second layer of defense for a battleship fleet, the first being destroyers with defenders missiles for bombs, and then this new against drones that would go under any kind of weapons on the battleships without them needing to put any smartbomb on themselves.
In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen :
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
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Aaron
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
437
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Posted - 2017.01.11 20:26:40 -
[116] - Quote
Nikea Tiber wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Attack BC treatment. ie Let assault Frigs mount Cruiser sized guns. You're welcome. Did you even read this thread? Cruiser guns on a frigate hull makes for a useless frigate. Aaron wrote: Leave the AF alone. It's fine as it is I've been kicking around new eden for about eleven years now. Assault frigates have always sucked, the lack of mobility vs the t1 combat hulls, fitting issues due to weak cpu and grid, and fitting issues due to lack of mids as an entire ship class. Assault frigates suck, and the proliferation of destroyer hulls just makes it worse. AFs need a fitting boost and a role bonus other than mwd sig reduction.
I've used an AF to destroy a sniper fit tornado, I was able to absorb a few hits while mwd'ing toward him then when I was within 5km I orbited and didnt take single hit while i chewed through his armour and hull. At the time i was fit with an ancilliary armour repair and a standard armour repair.
The key to using an AF is understanding what situations it would be useful in. It's a nice little fleet ship if you know when to use it.
I've also used AF's for gatecrashing, I used to fly around Stain anywhere I wanted when I came across a gate camp the AF had no problem MWD'ing and jumping back through to the gate I just came from and repeating it till I could warp away and cloak. I've also had many 1 vs 1 in AF's and it was always a good fight win or lose.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Aaron
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
437
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Posted - 2017.01.11 20:36:15 -
[117] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nikea Tiber wrote:Assault frigates have always sucked Not true. Before T3D landed they were one of the more common ships used. As I keep on saying the issue is not with AF its with T3D.
I wouldn't say the issue is with the T3D or AF, the issue is with the people who don't seem to know what situations to use AF's in.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
138
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Posted - 2017.01.12 13:36:33 -
[118] - Quote
Or if nothing noticeable would be needed actually, could it be to much ask to make AF able to use small repairer/boost effectively in pvp ? Because I never figured a way to not get killed quickly in my hawk against faction or pirate frigate if I dont have 2 MASB running with faction cap booster.
In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen :
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
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Orakkus
m3 Corp Evictus.
303
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Posted - 2017.01.12 16:09:34 -
[119] - Quote
Aaron wrote:
I've used an AF to destroy a sniper fit tornado...
I don't think that is a good comparision simply because, in that scenario, a lot of ships including interceptors, T1 Frigs, Destroyers, as well as some cruisers would have been able to use that tactic and get the same result. That situation was just an opportunity that was within the AFs (and many other ship classes) ability to take advantage of. It really doesn't show anything distinctive or unique to the AF.
Right now they don't have a role that something else doesn't do better.
He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
1284
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Posted - 2017.01.13 04:17:00 -
[120] - Quote
If you look at the history of T3 Cruisers, it's clear that T3 Destroyers are going to stay around and stay OP for a very long time. I agree that Assault Frigs aren't really the problem. There was a while when they were very competitive after they were first rebalanced.
But this is the reality we live in: T3D are here to stay. They are not going to get nerfed down to T1D base stats and simply become versatile destroyers.
So we need to do something.
The ideas I like best so far are some kind of unique invulnerability. I like neut invulnerability the best. It makes the most sense with the concept of an assault role. It helps it get into brawls above its class and stay in it.
I'd also (for the same reasons) like to see smaller sig radius or buffed resists.
I'm intrigued--in spite of the protests from earlier--by the idea of the ABC treatment. Give them a tracking bonus, but keep them slow to mitigate the tracking issues. That + a sig radius improvement or resist buffs should put them in a pretty good position to serve in a medium support role. You know, an assault role. No they won't be 1v1 solo pwnmobiles against other frigates. We've got tons of those already. I'm pretty sick of the speed meta. Not everything has to be that. Give them a slow-ish supporting role in the cruiser meta.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
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