Text chat is of course supported too. The PS3 supports standard USB and Bluetooth keyboards right out of the box and so we donGÇÖt think itGÇÖs unreasonable to expect that players will grab their PCGÇÖs keyboard for use in DUST 514. Believe me, itGÇÖs far easier than trying to use a software keyboard to keep up in a chat channel. The keyboard will be usable for chatting only. There will be no in-battle mouse + keyboard support.

http://www.dust514.com/en/news/?article=2041



Grats. You just lost several sales over something that would have been ridiculously easy to implement. Good marketing strategy there.

The console market is a different market. They don't use keyboards to play.

It's true.

100% of CCP's current customer base use keyboards to play. What have CCP learnt over the last 6 months about foregoing their current customers on the potential promise of gaining new different customers?

Its PS3 so that right off the bat loses my interest.

However, It is not fair to leave over no Keyboard and Mouse control. Those have a HUGE advantage over the controller on any FPS and frankly I can tell when people are using hardware hacks to use them (Which I consider cheating) in games such as Modern Warfare 3 and Halo.

It is the RIGHT decision!

And that is probably the logic behind it

10 of 10 K+M win over Controller

By allowing K+M control you just rule out Controller

100% of CCP's current customer base use keyboards to play. What have CCP learnt over the last 6 months about foregoing their current customers on the potential promise of gaining new different customers?

They're not interested in their current customer base for the obvious reason that they already have those customers GÇö it's a new game for a new set of customers on a new platform, so whether some completely unrelated group of people use keyboards is entirely irrelevant.

It's something rather different to radically alter your existing game with existing players to try to sucker in new people than to diversify and do something else. So if anything, they've learnt the right thing here: don't try to replace your customers, NGE-style GÇö attract new ones, Untold Legends-style.

Dust is a console game, to appeal to the console market.

What's so hard for you to get? I know you want it on your pc, but it's not that product. There are shooters for the PC if you want.

If you think tearing down dust will make it more likely you'll get it on the PC then I have news for you ... you're about to be more butt hurt than you already are.

Do you believe that cutting off such individuals for seemingly no positive trade off was in fact a sound business strategy?

Cutting off people who don't play console FPSes from a console FPS isn't particularly strange, no.

I don't care if it's on PC or PS3. It's on PS3, which has keyboard and mouse support. I would like to use my keyboard and mouse.

It doesn't matter how good a game is if it controls like ****.

And yet they still have managed to lose sales

So how is it a sound business strategy?

No.

Going after customer X when you're making a game for customer Y means neither X or Y will be happy. So you ditch X because he's irrelevant and only adds pointless extra work for no extra gain.

OMG I am selling my PS3 because if this unimportant bullshit.

Yes.

these players obviously exist.

PS3 already has keyboard and mouse support. This isn't something that is difficult to code into the game, at any stage of development.

Furthermore, console gamers are largely stupid to begin with. [/i].

No. You're making the argument that we should add instances, battlegrounds, PvE servers, and wizards to EVE because right now, we're having a ton of lost sales by not having them.

GǪexcept that those are not lost sales GÇö they are not part of the customer base. CCP is going for customer type X; the willingness of customer type Y to buy the game isn't relevant, because they're not part of the target market. You know, they're not including a dish washer in Dust either, so that's a ton of lost sales to stay-at-home parents who would like to have one.

GǪbut are irrelevant.
GǪand that's why it's in every console FPSGǪ except for pretty much all of them.
So maybe you're missing some important detail in making your leap of logic from GÇ£easy to doGÇ¥ to GÇ£doneGÇ¥.

Yes. Five people that I know myself personally, and plenty of others I'm sure.

Its interesting to me that Eve players still think that CCP is making Dust for Eve Players.

Its a completely different game, for a completely different player, it has nothing to do with eve other than a shared universe. Its like comparing Stratego to WWIIOL.

CCP isn't looking to make Eve2. They are looking to make Halo in the eve context. Does the Console version of Halo allow standard keyboard movement (I really don't know, so if it does, don't flame me too much).

these players obviously exist.

GǪbut are irrelevant.

Yea, a few lines of code to make the system recognize a certain type of input that's already supported by the system itself, man that's some hard stuff right there.

Also I'm failing to see how this is making a negative impact on controller gamers. What is stopping them from using a keyboard and mouse themselves, exactly?

And let's flip the arguement for a second -- Is it fair for me, as a "controller" user, to have to play against someone with the PSmove equipment?

You have a terrible business sense.

100% of CCP's current customer base use keyboards to play. What have CCP learnt over the last 6 months about foregoing their current customers on the potential promise of gaining new different customers?

Also I'm failing to see how this is making a negative impact on controller gamers. What is stopping them from using a keyboard and mouse themselves, exactly? I hardly see how this is game breaking to them. In this day and age im pretty sure just about every household has a keyboard and mouse tucked away somewhere if they are really that desperate to balance the scales.

And let's flip the arguement for a second -- Is it fair for me, as a "controller" user, to have to play against someone with the PSmove equipment? Why, it's all that money, and they can actually AIM better! That's just not fair!

What is stopping you from learning how to effectively use a controller? The input method used for 99% of the PS3 games, they're not exactly complex. Controllers are also perfect for when you're not sitting at a desk, which I'd take a guess most PS3 players are not.

As for the PS Move, it has pros and cons. Sure aiming is improved, it's good for sniping and such but no way can you use it to effectively turn and orient as fast as a controller. Clearing a close quarters room with a PS Move puts you at a disadvantage. Controllers of course are the opposite, so they're balanced control methods. Keyboard and mouse gives you both superior aiming and turning speed, it would be preferable to controllers and the PS Move.

You are noticing, of course, that a generic keyboard and mouse is cheaper than both a PS3 controller, and one of those PSmove weapons?

Good evaluation.

You are noticing, of course, that a generic keyboard and mouse is cheaper than both a PS3 controller, and one of those PSmove weapons?

You are noticing, of course, that the generic keyboard and mouse is an additional cost, whereas a PS3 controller is not?

You actually think most console gamers stick to a single controller throughout their consoles lifespan? oh dear me, you are clueless.

You actually think most console gamers stick to a single controller throughout their consoles lifespan?

Yes, I would imagine most do provided it remains functional that long. And when they do replace it they get another controller. Why would I get a keyboard and mouse to replace a controller on a system where the vast majority of games can't use it?

You actually think most console FPSes support two controllers for a single player?
Or are you just being daft?

The fact remains: the keyboard is an additional cost that doesn't actually add any real additional usefulness, the PS3 controller is not.

If you use a keyboard and mouse, you wear on your controller less, thus break it in slower.

So you're using a PS3 controller for EVE, then, because you want to reduce the wear and tear on your keyboard, right?

I found this for you.

Xbox controllers don't use rubber...

Keyboards last longer than controllers, because they are not reliant upon rubber contacts that wear over time and other fragile parts that break easily.

If you use a keyboard and mouse, you wear on your controller less, thus break it in slower.

You haven't disassembled a modern keyboard (or a controller), have you?

Anyway, the question remains: why aren't you using a PS3 controller for EVE?

You actually think most console gamers stick to a single controller throughout their consoles lifespan? oh dear me, you are clueless.

In fact, I'd wager they already owned a keyboard and mouse to begin with. Even console gamers use that thar thing called the internet. If they didn't I think it'd be pretty pointless for them to try playing a MMOFPS.

You haven't disassembled a modern keyboard (or a controller), have you?

Anyway, the question remains: why aren't you using a PS3 controller for EVE?

There's a difference between using a keyboard and mouse and using a keyboard and mouse for gaming. I didn't get into PC gaming until a while after I had an original Playstation. I still remember how painful it was learning how to effectively play Unreal Tournament online with a keyboard and mouse after only ever using controllers to control video games. There's no way I would have stuck to it if UT wasn't a mind blowing game.

I doubt many PS3 users would stick to Dust if it was presented to them as a PS3 exclusive and then they found out that the only way they won't get owned is to go buy a USB keyboard and mouse and learn it until their fingers bleed.
I seriously doubt Dust would have that much appeal... it would be like the .jpg of the EVE learning curve, because as much as I find a keyboard and mouse so easy to use now, I still remember it's not something you just pick up, especially if you play a controller.
Exactly the same when exclusive keyboard and mousers pick up a controller and go all herr durr... they're very different input methods and as a gamer I'm glad I can use both quite effectively.

Possibly, but then I couldn't troll you guys. Not an even tradeoff, so CCP better comply to my demands.

You haven't disassembled a modern keyboard (or a controller), have you?

Anyway, the question remains: why aren't you using a PS3 controller for EVE?

If a person has a PS3 and is planning on getting Dust 514, they have the internet.
If they have the internet, they probably have a PC.
If they have a PC, they have a mouse and keyboard.

GǪand if they don't want the hassle of connecting or linking it back and forth, they will have to buy a new one for their PS3. In addition, unlike the PC, this M/KB needs to be wireless and needs to work stably in your lap and on the sofa.

So, in conclusion, your silly and utterly unrealistic re-use OCD doesn't change the fact that it's an additional cost for something that adds nothing useful and which isn't supported by anything else the console player owns. It is as sensible as you buying a PS3 controller to play EVE (and asking CCP to add keyboard support to Dust is about as sensible as asking them to add full DualShock 3 support to EVE).

Just because some irrelevant part of a completely different set of consumers would like it GÇö and even they only want it because they can't be arsed/are to ham-fisted to learn how to play the game with the controls that all other games on the platform uses and which all players of said platform already own at zero additional cost and zero additional effort GÇö doesn't mean that adding support for that fringe control scheme is in any way a good use of your time and resources. It's quite the opposite, in fact.

GǪoh, and as for your friends, since apparently it's not a problem to buy additional and unsupported control tech, you know that there are KB/M-driven controller emulators that they can buy.

If there is one that works effectively than it was pointless for CCP to not include kb/mouse support, as the gap between players will still exist due to this.

So see, they are actually making it -more- difficult for most players to compete with the top % by removing broad functionality.

They all work effectively. You will have the same movement range as a controller player, so there is no need to add any KB/M support and it automatically solves the balancing issue since there is no advantage to using a keyboard and mouse other than familiarity.

You see, you are still so clueless about development that you're missing out the important details in doing the leap from GÇ£easy to doGÇ¥ to GÇ£doneGÇ¥.
Nope. But please keep up your uninformed trolling, because it's level of ignorance about everything and complete lack of any coherent logic is hilarious.

Here's a hint: it has nothing to do with sensitivity, although thats generally changeable even on a controller.

Confirming Tippia is garbage at first person shooters, and has no idea why keyboard and mouse is superior over, say, a thumbstick.

Here's a hint: it has nothing to do with sensitivity, although thats generally changeable even on a controller.

Here's a hint: no-one mentioned sensitivity except you. Stop with the 'shrooms because you're hallucinating now (and that would explain the other silly things you've said so far).

But thank you for confirming your ignorance once more.

Next time, check up what said emulators actually do, and why they erase the balancing issues between KB/M and controllers.

There's been a console/PC FPS where people could play against each other. And you know what they did? They dumbed down the KB/M controls so you didn't really have an advantage over a Controller user. Yes the former is easily superior to the latter. THAT is the issue. A large many of console players WANT to use a controller. They DO NOT want to use a KB/M. If they had to to be able to compete at all, they would leave. And since they are the target audience, it's simple common sense why the function is disabled.

This is the valid argument. So let me ask you, if fighting games allow arcade sticks (which give an advantage) and racing games allow driving wheels (which give an advantage), even niche games like ace combat have flight sticks (which give an advantage) but all allow controllers to also be used in a competitive environment, why should console FPS players get special treatment?

Are they suddenly babies that need everything dumbed down to the point nobody can reach their true potential?

I know you didn't mention sensitivity.

I am also unaware of your emulators

This is the valid argument. So let me ask you, if fighting games allow arcade sticks (which give an advantage) and racing games allow driving wheels (which give an advantage), even niche games like ace combat have flight sticks (which give an advantage) but all allow controllers to also be used in a competitive environment, why should console FPS players get special treatment?

Secondary Accessories. Primary for PC is KB/M, primary for Console is Controller. Most games on each will be suited for that primary control method. Some games, yes, you will do better with a wheel or stick. But it's the mentality behind it. People like me, who won;t use a controller for an FPS, want the control it offers. But most console gamers want the more casual controller. And they want an even playing ground like most sane people would. In ANY case, you want them to allow a KB/M for a secondary audience. Except, regardless of your ranting, doing so would push away the target audience.

http://evo2k.com/ has been steadily growing over the years, despite general lack of support from fighting game devs and where nearly every serious competitor has a specialized stick or pad that can be quite expensive. Yet still, there exist some who are decent with a normal pad, and most realize they never had a shot in hell of reaching top 8. This year, it had a couple thousand registrants fly to vegas from all over the world to compete.

Fighting games too, are based on consoles now, despite being born from another scene entirely (in their case arcades, in our case PC/internet).

I just don't see why there is suddenly this huge disconnect between the two groups.

We can run around with this all day. You say they're babies for wanting a level playing field with the standard console controller. Yet you're not a baby for wanting them to unbalance said level playing field just to get you to play? I understand the desire to only ever use a KB/M, I really do. But you know what? If the game isn't to my liking, as are console FPS games, I do not play them. I don't rant up a storm on the forums about it. It's just like all the people who want MMOs tailored to THEIR playstyle. The game was not made for our kind, get over it.

Then it will die, and CCP will lose money.

Thus bringing the entire thread full circle.

GǪright back to the question of: why should they add something that GÇö with one exception GÇö no other game in the same genre on the same platform has felt the need to implement?

Why will Dust die from this lack when the others didn't?
Why should CCP waste money on appeasing customer type Y when they're going after customer type X?

Because they can appease both, and because you don't grow a successful game by suckling on the breast of the bare minimum.

Seriously, are we going to do this whole thing again?

But is it worth the considerable effort for such a minimal (and very uncertain) gain?

Again, why will Dust die from this lack when the others didn't?
Why should CCP waste money on appeasing customer type Y when they're going after customer type X?
What GÇ£againGÇ¥? You never answered the questions to begin with.

What "money" are they wasting?

Just how much dev power does it take to program in simple keyboard/mouse support?

But to answer both questions: Dust will die because console FPS players have limited attention spans, and they are only going to be charging around $20 for the initial cost.

the core FPS audience ain't touchin a piece of **** controller.

Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.

Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.

Also, counter-strike still has a ridiculous number of servers running. Funny you don't see that kind of commitment to a console FPS unless they are constantly releasing new iterations of the same game every year to keep players interested.

So, just like Dust then.

Chicken and egg. Do they keep skipping to the new iteration because a new iteration is constantly being released, or do they release new iteration to keep people playing? Regardless, Dust will do the iteration thing, so what's the problem?

This is a horrible thread.

It's like I'm watching Tippia being forced to punish a puppy because it won't stop peeing on the floor.

Re-read what I just said. It DOESN'T require you to pay money every time you lose. Dust DOES, or at least will for the average console player since they won't have an eve account to draw isk from.




CCP really sucks at expansions that contain actual content?

go go power rangers, derp herp derp

Pop quiz: Name all the sources of income available to DUST players.

Re-read what I just said.

CCP really sucks at expansions that contain actual content?

microtransactions and eve players.

microtransactions which are always available, and eve players who you better believe aren't going to give up anything unless you win.

So for the average joe, his stuff will be getting blown up constantly, and he will be reduced to basic starter junk that won't really win him any contracts.

I'm failing to see where you're going with this.

I played FF14.

Games intended for a console don't work on the KB and mouse. I'd actually like to see CCP allow this so you could see how bad you suck using a KB and mouse but I can't ask them to waste money just to prove a point.

And lastly, yes, some items will only be available for cash initially... and then be able to be freely sold on the market for ISK.

I'm sorry.



Are you attempting to mock my general ability with keyboard and mouse, or just theorizing they can't work for consoles?

If it's the former, i'll take you for $200 in a private CS server, 1v1.



Which can then be destroyed like anything else.

Tell me does everyone in eve have an alliance that pays for every single ship loss they ever have? No, they don't. Most of us take care of ourselves. So will a lot of Dust players, and I somehow doubt most alliances are going to fund 13 year olds regularly. Something about the thought of kids crashing dropships into the side of a mountain just because it "looked fun"...Just a hunch on that.

I played FF14.

Games intended for a console don't work on the KB and mouse. I'd actually like to see CCP allow this so you could see how bad you suck using a KB and mouse but I can't ask them to waste money just to prove a point.

Fairly simple. Will forcing players to figure out how to connect a KB/M for DUST to be competitive drive more people away from the game than it will attract players who would normally not have played DUST without KB/M control, or not.

Personally I think more would be driven away than it would attract, I believe most PS3 players would expect to buy it and play it with the systems normal controller. If they get repeatedly slaughtered due to KB/M, I think most would stop playing and move on to another PS3 game.

There is no way to prove that's what would happen, and I suppose it's possible you are right. I just don't think your position is the common sense conclusion most would make when looking at the issue.

Since I don't own a PS3 it personally makes no difference to me, other than my wish for CCP to do well and generate profits to continue funding the development of their products.

This did generate a surprisingly large amount of (pointless) discussion though, congratulations on that I suppose.

Out of all of the income streams I mentioned, "this" is your answer?

Okay, it looks like you are running out of steam... so I'm out of this one for now.

I still play FFXIV. A console fps with the aim helpers and the like turned off would be just fine with a KB/M.

We have a winner.

You seem to not understand how Dust works.

Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.

Still doesn't give any reason that CCP should give in to your wishes and possibly risk losing their target audience, which is a larger risk than you seem to think.

You seem to confuse your assumptions with reality.
You are making factual claims about things not even CCP seem to know about yet.

Yes, you will probably have to grind ISK in Dust to buy stuff, and you will probably haveto buy AUR to buy other things. But don't for a second presume to know what tou buy for which and how long it lasts. We don't even know what the game will cost (if anythinh) to buy. So kindly go shove your hallucinations and, again, lay off the 'shrooms.

SoGǪGǪjust like Dust then.

I thought we already established the target audience sucks and won't stick around.

No. You had just claimed it without anything to back it up, as usual

http://www.dust514.com/en/news/?article=2041



Grats. You just lost several sales over something that would have been ridiculously easy to implement. Good marketing strategy there.

This post is stupid and you should be depressed for being the one who made it.

pot, meet kettle.

only my kettle is nicer, and comes with a cooking guide.



yahuh? so where's your evidence to support your own claim of things lasting forever?

Your name is stupid and your mother should be ashamed in general.

Tippia never claimed that. YOU claimed they suck and would leave. No one said they would. Burden of proof lies with you, sir.

That very well maybe, doesn't change the fact that your OP is stupid and this example of your stupidity will exist on the internet forever.

Tippia claimed to understand how Dust mechanics would work in relation to items being destroyed/not being destroyed, as he likes saying "Just like Dust" in relation to BF3 items (which are not destroyed permanently).

Ergo, he has made an assumption with no evidence. He then went on to criticize me for making an "assumption" about the mechanics when he had no evidence himself. The reality was I had more evidence to back up my claim via the way things work in eve and the fact they have interconnected economies, and he had zero.

What, the burden lies with me alone? F that, you guys say stuff you get to back it up too. Play by your own damn rules.



Indeed, I will forever be immortal for my rants, but you sir, you will eventually die. Know this, and weep.

Tippia still never claimed to, you can see this with the words used. Tippia even said that since the games not out there's plenty we do not know yet..

Battlefield 3 also doesn't require you pay 5 dollars to CCP every time you lose little flying command center.

So, just like Dust then.

Quick drop in to mention that after 7 pages of this bullcr*p, OP needs to shut the hell up for 30 seconds and listen to whats being said to him by almost everyone.

By allowing keyboard and mouse by choice, the shiny trademark shaped and easily recognisable smooth fancy controllers would be obsolete both in function and in form. Their function is as a game controller and would be totally non-competative against those with keyboards and high sensitivity twitch mice. Their form is as a recognisable trademark of the company itself, and allows the observer to know exactly what console someone is playing even without seeing it.

Most console FPS game developers i'm sure feel it's important to keep people on as level a playing field as possible, and that is the main reason behind limiting players to one kind of input device.

I feel that these points have been clearly demonstrated in a number of different ways throughout the many pages of this text by more people than you can shake a Catalyst at, and so i only re-post the info because OP does not seem to be "getting it".

Really? Ok so, with this...





Sounds like an (obviously broad) assumption on my part, and it also sounds like an assumption on his part.

But if you wanna think of something witty to say before you guys attempt to change the subject to something more favorable again, ill give you time...

Tippia claimed to understand how Dust mechanics would work in relation to items being destroyed/not being destroyed, as he likes saying "Just like Dust" in relation to BF3 items (which are not destroyed permanently).

Ergo, he has made an assumption with no evidence. He then went on to criticize me for making an "assumption" about the mechanics when he had no evidence himself. The reality was I had more evidence to back up my claim via the way things work in eve and the fact they have interconnected economies, and he had zero.

What, the burden lies with me alone? F that, you guys say stuff you get to back it up too. Play by your own damn rules.



Indeed, I will forever be immortal for my rants, but you sir, you will eventually die. Know this, and weep.