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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:33:00 -
[1]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 28/03/2007 16:42:30
Dear CCP & community,
I'd like to have a couple answers to the following points:
1. Tech2 BPOs:
Description:
Tech 2 BPOs were always meant by CCP as luxury within the game. Pricy, not for the masses and a limited source due to a limited number of BPOs.
T2 BPO was seen as a long-term investment for corporations who worked hard or had luck to get them. It was meant as patents you have in real life on a product just -in opposite of real life- there were 20 patents to each item available which would be handed out by the lottery (the same as in r/l that you have luck to patent it first). This t2 BPO market was there to ensure the basics for long-term investments within eve. a long-term customer attachment. T2 items were never necessary to fight successful. Good tactics and knowledge about eve balances every advantage you have due to Tech2 items.
Now we have the current situation:
-Invention:
It was meant as pulling prices of very expensive items down to a certain more cost-effective level. A good meaning and would've kept the profits of all t2 items in a range so they are not RIDICULOUSLY overpriced.
- Another t2 BPo seeding:
Why did CCP have to do this? Invention would've regulated the market prices to a normal level for luxury goods. So why was it needed to put in another wave of BPO AND invention. 1 of both would've been more than enough. This seeding crunched trillions of ISK which were invested into Tech2 BPOs.
The question now is:
"What is a ridiculous price for an item?"
I will grab the example of a Hulk in this. Current market price: 500M.
What can the hulk do, the covetor can't? 3% per level more mining yield and a better tank. The main reason using a hulk would be 0.0 mining since you can tank small spawns with it easily. Now let us calculate a little.
If I buy this hulk and are able to mine by myself in 0.0 territory Bistot or Arkonor I do around 30-50M / hour (depending on mineral prices). So basically after 15 hours of mining I have made the cash of that hulk back. So I question you, is that price ridiculously too expensive?
Going from an average player in eve, who has 1h time per day in average, it'd take him 15 days to amortize the Rolls Royce of mining. Every asteroid he mines after this is HIS/HER profit.
What is happening at the moment?
I think, what is happening at the moment is a bad direction eve is going into. CCP are screwing exactly THAT thing which made Eve Eve. Eve-O was NEVER meant as WoW or any other MMORPG with almost fixed item prices and a few EPIC items which are hilariously expensive and you find with luck.
Eve was about long-term attachment of people. Eve was about building Empires and have a full player driven market. If you couldn't afford something, you'd sit there without it.
I never complained when I was a newcomer in this game because there were long-term goals waiting for me to achieve. I could PvP with t1 gear as well as I can now with t2 gear.
The t2 market was the holy grail of eve and the basement of it. It is in reach for everyone. t2 BPo were/are sold to everyone. some items rose in price due to a patch and the modifications at some items, some fell due to the same just in disadvantage.
I question all the people in here who kept complaining for months about t2 and stuff and forced CCP into doing that:
What did you gain? Wasn't it a bit short-sighted to saw at the own branch you're standing on? Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
And I question CCP:
Why did you get shaky on that thing and fell for it? These markets were there and bound alot of players into eve. This way of investing long-term was never in any other MMO(RP)G and made the special flavour of eve.
Invention would've been done well enough for it. Why Invention and another seeding? It was short-sighted and a wrong development.
Think about it!
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:41:00 -
[2]
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. |
Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:49:00 -
[3]
the game was getting bigger and bigger which was giving the BPO owners ever more power and money, it was a flawed design and is/has being rectified. BPO owners still have the edge.
also their is a problem with your hulk thingy, the hulk would not only have to pay for it's self, but also the difference in mining amounts between it and the next best barge, for the huge additional cost of getting that increase, in the following period of mining. only after all that had been done it would be truly profitable.
For example, Fitting a raven with a Shield booster that cost 600million so you could do level 4 missions better, if you had been doing said missions with a tech II booster beforehand...that 600mill booster would not pay itself off after you had earned 600million, but only after that 600million had made you another 600million on top of what you'd be getting anyway, would the investment be paid off. That's a very, very long time :)
I'd be interested to see such calculations on a hulk Vs the nest best thing, I know jack about them.
Flashing White Box (rank 1) |
podadot
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:50:00 -
[4]
B
(grade on the topic)
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:50:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Dravin Dread
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
Well, it's more:
The implicated needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one. Mining foreman skills are more worth than a hulk. And those skills are cheap and available to everybody.
A few implicated the masses that they NEED it to mine effectively which was a blatant lie. As well as they implicated the masses that they NEED t2 stuff to compete which was a blatant lie as well.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kassad II
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: c0rn1
Long post about players "forcing" ccp into implementing invention
I'm terribly sry ccp destroyed your isk printing machine.
Instead of crying, you should get over it and be happy you got a great advantage over the ppl inventing -8 ME T2 Bpc's.
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Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:54:00 -
[7]
The T2 model doesn't follow any real world one where invention comes in at a high rpice and then slowly as supply ramps up it comes down in price. With a fixed number of BPO and an ever increasing amount of players then this didn't follow any sort of real pattern at all. I always thought that once the intitial BPOs were seeeding then one per month of each line could go into EVE, this would also give the newer players a chance to get say a Deimos or Ishtar BPO given to them.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hans Roaming
The T2 model doesn't follow any real world one where invention comes in at a high rpice and then slowly as supply ramps up it comes down in price. With a fixed number of BPO and an ever increasing amount of players then this didn't follow any sort of real pattern at all. I always thought that once the intitial BPOs were seeeding then one per month of each line could go into EVE, this would also give the newer players a chance to get say a Deimos or Ishtar BPO given to them.
yes, the conclusion of my post is that EITHER another seeding or as you say a constant seeding of one BPO per 2 months per item (1 month is too much in my eyes) OR Invention would've done ok. But both introduced at the same point and boosting invention more and more just screwed over the market.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:05:00 -
[9]
It is true that I do not like all these new direction either. The practicable long term projects swiftly become fewer and fewer. And the player who just wants to hop into the game to have some cheap pvp fun (i call it griefing because you cannot get revenge) for 1-2 hours/week become more and more. This is not good.
For the T2 situation now. The T2 bpo holders will always have the big advantage of zero invention costs. Usually you have invention costs for each item of at least 2 million isk. So the t2 bpo holders can still earn good money, just not as much as before!
With invention running there are new chokepoints, for example all the advanced building materials which are necessary for the t2 building. You need to do moon mining and then run simple/complex reactions. This can become your new long term investments.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:09:00 -
[10]
T2 never should have had BPOs in the first place.
_________________________
~Thor Xian, Star Commander |
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breadcat
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: c0rn1
T2 BPO was seen as a long-term investment for corporations who worked hard or had luck to get them.
...or just got the BPOs from GMs... 
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Na'Thuul
Caldari
Suffoco Noctis
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:14:00 -
[12]
Well, if you want to compare T2 BPOs with patents, most real-life patents are only valid for a set amount of years
---
[08:41:12] Nebulai > unless your offering me cheap pills, I don't see it
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: breadcat
Originally by: c0rn1
T2 BPO was seen as a long-term investment for corporations who worked hard or had luck to get them.
...or just got the BPOs from GMs...
troll somewhere else please.
thanks
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: c0rn1
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one. Mining foreman skills are more worth than a hulk. And those skills are cheap and available to everybody.
A few implicated the masses that they NEED it to mine effectively which was a blatant lie. As well as they implicated the masses that they NEED t2 stuff to compete which was a blatant lie as well.
The Hulk example is a bit more complex than at first glance. You are really paying more for the tank a Hulk has than the better mining ability which is minimal. To compare you'd need a max-fitted Covetor running 3xMSM-II that cost 30 million each with a Hulk doing the same. Thing is a Covetor with those fittings is a suicide gank waiting to happen. Really a no brainer for the attacker as a Covetor is very easy to kill and may drop 30-60 mil in mods. A Hulk however can tank quite well making the suicide gankers task far more difficult. As a result many do not fit the best mining lasers on a Covetor as the potential downside is large.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:34:00 -
[15]
The entire concept of BPO's was flawed from the beginning.
Allowing someone an in-perpetuity license to create T2 items and ships on-the-cheap is an insanely imbalancing method of handling it. What you get is the situation we currently have; A small handful of VERY powerful alliances and corps hold T2 BPO's that have a practical monopoly on those items, allowing them to essentially hold the rest of EVE hostage to their predatory pricing.
I'm not entirely certain that the changes CCP introduced are the correct ones, party because the existing T2 BPOs are still out there. This will prevent anyone not holding them from really catching up. Yes, they are not as much of an advantage as before, but they are still too much financial power in the hands of too few.
I would suggest that they change the entire Blueprint concept to be more like current copyright or Patent law. The idea behind copyright and Patent law is that it allows a monopoly on an item or idea, but only for a LIMITED TIME. After that the idea or item enters into the Public domain, where it can be used by anyone.
What I would suggest is as follows:
Keep BPC invention the same as it is. Perhaps make the odds of success a bit better, so as to allow younger players easier access to the invention process. Of course, the BPC's would still have the exact same "limited run" function that they do now. X amount of copies, and then it's gone. Somewhat like licensing a technology from a Patent holder.
BPO's should also be allowed to be invented, but at a much higher cost with a success rate only 50% that of BPC's. Also, to mimic the Copyright concept, while BPO's will allow the manufacturing of unlimited numbers of the items or ships, they will last a fixed amount of TIME. Say, 60-90 days, after which they will expire and be useless.
Just like regular copyright, if you "invent" a BPO, you need to capitalize on it right away, or give up the ISK. This will still allow large corps and alliances to make tons of cash, but no more ISK printing machines.
Of course, to make this work, the current BPOs in-game MUST be put on the BPO expiration timer. The current BPO's are unbalanced, and permanent ISK factories must be forever removed from EVE.
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Aldee
Federated Holdings
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Na'Thuul
Well, if you want to compare T2 BPOs with patents, most real-life patents are only valid for a set amount of years
Correct, the time given to r/l patents is 20 yrs so I say we cut that in half and make T2 bpos good for 10 yrs then they expire. 
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cheru
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: c0rn1
...
I question all the people in here who kept complaining for months about t2 and stuff and forced CCP into doing that:
What did you gain? Wasn't it a bit short-sighted to saw at the own branch you're standing on? Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
...
I don't care about wealth. I want to spend my Eve-playtime blowing up other player's ships. I want to use the gear I have skills for (t2) without beeing forced to grind away too much time to earn an unreasonable amount of isk to pay unreasonable prices for t2 items.
I like the feeling of "real" loss when my ship blows up, but neither do I want the isk earning process to be a chore nor do I want an isk printing item (oldskool t2 bpo) to provide me with endless isk, taking away the real loss feeling.
Thats why I think Invention and the seeding of more t2 bpos is a step in the right direction if they bring us reasonable t2 prices.
.................................................
been there
done that |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
The entire concept of BPO's was flawed from the beginning.
Allowing someone an in-perpetuity license to create T2 items and ships on-the-cheap is an insanely imbalancing method of handling it. What you get is the situation we currently have; A small handful of VERY powerful alliances and corps hold T2 BPO's that have a practical monopoly on those items, allowing them to essentially hold the rest of EVE hostage to their predatory pricing.
I'm not entirely certain that the changes CCP introduced are the correct ones, party because the existing T2 BPOs are still out there. This will prevent anyone not holding them from really catching up. Yes, they are not as much of an advantage as before, but they are still too much financial power in the hands of too few.
I would suggest that they change the entire Blueprint concept to be more like current copyright or Patent law. The idea behind copyright and Patent law is that it allows a monopoly on an item or idea, but only for a LIMITED TIME. After that the idea or item enters into the Public domain, where it can be used by anyone.
What I would suggest is as follows:
Keep BPC invention the same as it is. Perhaps make the odds of success a bit better, so as to allow younger players easier access to the invention process. Of course, the BPC's would still have the exact same "limited run" function that they do now. X amount of copies, and then it's gone. Somewhat like licensing a technology from a Patent holder.
BPO's should also be allowed to be invented, but at a much higher cost with a success rate only 50% that of BPC's. Also, to mimic the Copyright concept, while BPO's will allow the manufacturing of unlimited numbers of the items or ships, they will last a fixed amount of TIME. Say, 60-90 days, after which they will expire and be useless.
Just like regular copyright, if you "invent" a BPO, you need to capitalize on it right away, or give up the ISK. This will still allow large corps and alliances to make tons of cash, but no more ISK printing machines.
Of course, to make this work, the current BPOs in-game MUST be put on the BPO expiration timer. The current BPO's are unbalanced, and permanent ISK factories must be forever removed from EVE.
One of the reasons you put up is to allow younger players to more cash more quickly.
Eve with it's long term structure was never meant to make "quick isk". If you look at the map and look at the average age of the players sitting in those "few" powerful alliances. Those are all long-time players.
Eve always held long-term goals for their players until the latest implements into the game. This is one of the reasons why I started to play eve. It seperated itself off the market of all other MMO(RP)G due to it's fact that long hard work pays off in the end.
ALWAYS
if older player join those older alliances and profit of it or not. But it kept the building of Empires available within Eve. Recent actions do not. It degenerates Eve to a random MMO(RP)G.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Calamitty
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
you are making an assumption that everything is about wealth and not accesability.
if i was in your shoes i would marvel at the world created in EvE and how one could practice different political ideologies.
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Thoric Frosthammer
Fallen Angels Inc
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:20:00 -
[20]
The fact you have made money in a certain way for a long time grants you no divine or legal right to continue making money in that fashion in the future. To believe otherwise is to become the RIAA.
Bottom line, if the game is to grow, it needs new players. New players must feel they have a chance to compete in the economic facet of the game or they will not play. Artificial monopolies derived simply from being around at the right time are antithetical to good game play.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:25:00 -
[21]
if T2 BPOs were like patents, then those patents have just expired.
welcome to the era of generic, cheaper t2 BPCs, mroe choice, less quality.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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semp
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:45:00 -
[22]
I understand your view point, im a T2 BPO collector myself.
But consider this, with the old system there is no way any corp or even alliance could produce all the items their pilots required. True they could trade the items they had for other types of items etc, thus getting them at a reduced cost....but unless you have a Crow BPO, there was no way you were ever going to be able to build one.
Also the Science skill set was the biggest waste of SP in Eve. very few of them were actually any real use to either the player or the corp, they were just used to increase daily RP totals....for a lottery that never really worked right 
At least this way a corp can produce the specific ships and mods their pilots need, and those chars that invested months of training into their science skills can actually put them to good use.
I for one think invention is a welcome introduction to the game.
Great news! You were successful in producing a new Tech II blueprint!
Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much.
Blueprint details:
Blueprint Type: Heavy Missile Launcher II Blueprint
Number of Runs: 10
Material Level: -5
Productivity Level: -1
Woot
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 28/03/2007 18:45:26
hey, if you get to keep the T2 bpos,
I should have been able to keep my Crusie lancher kessies
.... or the mines... etc...
but they took it anyways....
edit: but.. yeah.. as you mentioned... isnt the hulk an "epic" item that is created by a select few for isk =P ?
hehehe.
-Siggi-
""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:06:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 28/03/2007 19:03:35
Originally by: c0rn1
One of the reasons you put up is to allow younger players to more cash more quickly.
Eve with it's long term structure was never meant to make "quick isk".
BINGO!
No quick ISK for ANYBODY, long term players or not.
You keep talking about "long term investment" but let's be honest here. If you have a T2 BPO from the lottery, what "investment" is there? It's a dang LOTTERY! Lotteries BY DEFINITION are NOT investments!
Basically, if you have an old-style T2 BPO you have been granted cheap, easy and quick ISK by the gods of CCP. You have an artificial monopoly through no merit or investment of your own, you were just LUCKY. That right there is the surest way to drive away new players. If they see what amounts to random acts of "god" in the game granting some players or groups the ability to make as much ISK as they want for as long as they want, they won't bother staying because they know they can't compete.
With my method, new players have a better chance of gaining SOME ISK, enough to get them involved in the science and invention concept and "hooked" into the game. It also allows for REAL investment into BPO and T2 BPO creation, as only the larger and wealthier groups will have the funds to continually re-invest funds and mats in BPO research and invention.
Ultimately, it's obvious that's what you are really complaining about. Your free ride has been taken away and you are whining. Even though I came up with a perfectly viable method for you, your corp, and anyone to be able to make a time and ISK investment and get a good reward with some risk, you still want your free ride and are going to have a stomping tantrum until you get it back.
Well, have fun holding your breath. The rest of us will enjoy watching you turn various shades of blue, because the days of the free ride are over bucko. And really, if it bothers you that much, you know where the door is. Use it.
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App Rentoo
Caldari
Gnomes Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:15:00 -
[25]
The only bad thing with invention, is that it wasnt introduced earlier. T2 lottery was always a flawed system.
@ the OP : So bad, so sad, your isk printing machine is now less effective. Cry more.
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Miriam Mar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Miriam Mar on 28/03/2007 19:21:52
Your patents have now run out. Prepare to compete with the unwashed masses.
Whine, or adapt, up to you.
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Miriam Mar
Your patents have now run out. Prepare to compete with the masses of (insert typical low-cost asian country of choice) cheap copies.
Whine, or adapt, up to you.
oooo... alittle dash of roleplay.... I like...
-Siggi-
""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:28:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one
There sure as hell is a good reason to, in 0.0.
People dont buy Hulks for the mining ability, but the tank ability to not be insta-popped by dangerous 0.0 rats.
Thats why you see people mining in Battleships, people who dont want to get wtfpwned by any and everything, and might not have the skills for a Hulk.
In a word, Retriever/Coveter SUCK BADLY in any kind of dangerous environment.
Sorry, didnt mean to derail, just a big gripe of mine.
As for the T2 BPO Lottery, good riddance, even if it takes a while for CCP to tweak it properly, particularly in regards to component costs and missing items.
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emepror
Gallente
Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:54:00 -
[29]
isnt invention the ground work to lower t2 to make it todays t1 so t3 can come in soon?
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Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Dravin Dread
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
Well, it's more:
The implicated needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one. Mining foreman skills are more worth than a hulk. And those skills are cheap and available to everybody.
A few implicated the masses that they NEED it to mine effectively which was a blatant lie. As well as they implicated the masses that they NEED t2 stuff to compete which was a blatant lie as well.
Regards
c0rn1
This response is short sighted and selfish. The needs of the many are to feel that they can advance in the game by getting the next best ship. Restricted supply hurts the game. So you don't get as much ISK as you did before, but the higher levels of game play will be more accessible to more players. You want your monopoly, I can understand it, you'd not be playnig a game such as this if you didn't want to fantasticly wealthy, even in a fantasy land. Heck I want it too, but I also want the game to be to be fun.
Your fun is to have your monopoly, it's understandable. But it's not fun for others that don't have a monopoly. Perhaps if everyone had a monopoly of something that everyone needed, it would work out, but that's not the way it is.
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