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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:33:00 -
[1]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 28/03/2007 16:42:30
Dear CCP & community,
I'd like to have a couple answers to the following points:
1. Tech2 BPOs:
Description:
Tech 2 BPOs were always meant by CCP as luxury within the game. Pricy, not for the masses and a limited source due to a limited number of BPOs.
T2 BPO was seen as a long-term investment for corporations who worked hard or had luck to get them. It was meant as patents you have in real life on a product just -in opposite of real life- there were 20 patents to each item available which would be handed out by the lottery (the same as in r/l that you have luck to patent it first). This t2 BPO market was there to ensure the basics for long-term investments within eve. a long-term customer attachment. T2 items were never necessary to fight successful. Good tactics and knowledge about eve balances every advantage you have due to Tech2 items.
Now we have the current situation:
-Invention:
It was meant as pulling prices of very expensive items down to a certain more cost-effective level. A good meaning and would've kept the profits of all t2 items in a range so they are not RIDICULOUSLY overpriced.
- Another t2 BPo seeding:
Why did CCP have to do this? Invention would've regulated the market prices to a normal level for luxury goods. So why was it needed to put in another wave of BPO AND invention. 1 of both would've been more than enough. This seeding crunched trillions of ISK which were invested into Tech2 BPOs.
The question now is:
"What is a ridiculous price for an item?"
I will grab the example of a Hulk in this. Current market price: 500M.
What can the hulk do, the covetor can't? 3% per level more mining yield and a better tank. The main reason using a hulk would be 0.0 mining since you can tank small spawns with it easily. Now let us calculate a little.
If I buy this hulk and are able to mine by myself in 0.0 territory Bistot or Arkonor I do around 30-50M / hour (depending on mineral prices). So basically after 15 hours of mining I have made the cash of that hulk back. So I question you, is that price ridiculously too expensive?
Going from an average player in eve, who has 1h time per day in average, it'd take him 15 days to amortize the Rolls Royce of mining. Every asteroid he mines after this is HIS/HER profit.
What is happening at the moment?
I think, what is happening at the moment is a bad direction eve is going into. CCP are screwing exactly THAT thing which made Eve Eve. Eve-O was NEVER meant as WoW or any other MMORPG with almost fixed item prices and a few EPIC items which are hilariously expensive and you find with luck.
Eve was about long-term attachment of people. Eve was about building Empires and have a full player driven market. If you couldn't afford something, you'd sit there without it.
I never complained when I was a newcomer in this game because there were long-term goals waiting for me to achieve. I could PvP with t1 gear as well as I can now with t2 gear.
The t2 market was the holy grail of eve and the basement of it. It is in reach for everyone. t2 BPo were/are sold to everyone. some items rose in price due to a patch and the modifications at some items, some fell due to the same just in disadvantage.
I question all the people in here who kept complaining for months about t2 and stuff and forced CCP into doing that:
What did you gain? Wasn't it a bit short-sighted to saw at the own branch you're standing on? Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
And I question CCP:
Why did you get shaky on that thing and fell for it? These markets were there and bound alot of players into eve. This way of investing long-term was never in any other MMO(RP)G and made the special flavour of eve.
Invention would've been done well enough for it. Why Invention and another seeding? It was short-sighted and a wrong development.
Think about it!
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:41:00 -
[2]
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. |
Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:49:00 -
[3]
the game was getting bigger and bigger which was giving the BPO owners ever more power and money, it was a flawed design and is/has being rectified. BPO owners still have the edge.
also their is a problem with your hulk thingy, the hulk would not only have to pay for it's self, but also the difference in mining amounts between it and the next best barge, for the huge additional cost of getting that increase, in the following period of mining. only after all that had been done it would be truly profitable.
For example, Fitting a raven with a Shield booster that cost 600million so you could do level 4 missions better, if you had been doing said missions with a tech II booster beforehand...that 600mill booster would not pay itself off after you had earned 600million, but only after that 600million had made you another 600million on top of what you'd be getting anyway, would the investment be paid off. That's a very, very long time :)
I'd be interested to see such calculations on a hulk Vs the nest best thing, I know jack about them.
Flashing White Box (rank 1) |
podadot
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:50:00 -
[4]
B
(grade on the topic)
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:50:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Dravin Dread
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
Well, it's more:
The implicated needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one. Mining foreman skills are more worth than a hulk. And those skills are cheap and available to everybody.
A few implicated the masses that they NEED it to mine effectively which was a blatant lie. As well as they implicated the masses that they NEED t2 stuff to compete which was a blatant lie as well.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kassad II
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: c0rn1
Long post about players "forcing" ccp into implementing invention
I'm terribly sry ccp destroyed your isk printing machine.
Instead of crying, you should get over it and be happy you got a great advantage over the ppl inventing -8 ME T2 Bpc's.
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Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:54:00 -
[7]
The T2 model doesn't follow any real world one where invention comes in at a high rpice and then slowly as supply ramps up it comes down in price. With a fixed number of BPO and an ever increasing amount of players then this didn't follow any sort of real pattern at all. I always thought that once the intitial BPOs were seeeding then one per month of each line could go into EVE, this would also give the newer players a chance to get say a Deimos or Ishtar BPO given to them.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hans Roaming
The T2 model doesn't follow any real world one where invention comes in at a high rpice and then slowly as supply ramps up it comes down in price. With a fixed number of BPO and an ever increasing amount of players then this didn't follow any sort of real pattern at all. I always thought that once the intitial BPOs were seeeding then one per month of each line could go into EVE, this would also give the newer players a chance to get say a Deimos or Ishtar BPO given to them.
yes, the conclusion of my post is that EITHER another seeding or as you say a constant seeding of one BPO per 2 months per item (1 month is too much in my eyes) OR Invention would've done ok. But both introduced at the same point and boosting invention more and more just screwed over the market.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:05:00 -
[9]
It is true that I do not like all these new direction either. The practicable long term projects swiftly become fewer and fewer. And the player who just wants to hop into the game to have some cheap pvp fun (i call it griefing because you cannot get revenge) for 1-2 hours/week become more and more. This is not good.
For the T2 situation now. The T2 bpo holders will always have the big advantage of zero invention costs. Usually you have invention costs for each item of at least 2 million isk. So the t2 bpo holders can still earn good money, just not as much as before!
With invention running there are new chokepoints, for example all the advanced building materials which are necessary for the t2 building. You need to do moon mining and then run simple/complex reactions. This can become your new long term investments.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:09:00 -
[10]
T2 never should have had BPOs in the first place.
_________________________
~Thor Xian, Star Commander |
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breadcat
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: c0rn1
T2 BPO was seen as a long-term investment for corporations who worked hard or had luck to get them.
...or just got the BPOs from GMs... 
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Na'Thuul
Caldari
Suffoco Noctis
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:14:00 -
[12]
Well, if you want to compare T2 BPOs with patents, most real-life patents are only valid for a set amount of years
---
[08:41:12] Nebulai > unless your offering me cheap pills, I don't see it
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: breadcat
Originally by: c0rn1
T2 BPO was seen as a long-term investment for corporations who worked hard or had luck to get them.
...or just got the BPOs from GMs...
troll somewhere else please.
thanks
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: c0rn1
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one. Mining foreman skills are more worth than a hulk. And those skills are cheap and available to everybody.
A few implicated the masses that they NEED it to mine effectively which was a blatant lie. As well as they implicated the masses that they NEED t2 stuff to compete which was a blatant lie as well.
The Hulk example is a bit more complex than at first glance. You are really paying more for the tank a Hulk has than the better mining ability which is minimal. To compare you'd need a max-fitted Covetor running 3xMSM-II that cost 30 million each with a Hulk doing the same. Thing is a Covetor with those fittings is a suicide gank waiting to happen. Really a no brainer for the attacker as a Covetor is very easy to kill and may drop 30-60 mil in mods. A Hulk however can tank quite well making the suicide gankers task far more difficult. As a result many do not fit the best mining lasers on a Covetor as the potential downside is large.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:34:00 -
[15]
The entire concept of BPO's was flawed from the beginning.
Allowing someone an in-perpetuity license to create T2 items and ships on-the-cheap is an insanely imbalancing method of handling it. What you get is the situation we currently have; A small handful of VERY powerful alliances and corps hold T2 BPO's that have a practical monopoly on those items, allowing them to essentially hold the rest of EVE hostage to their predatory pricing.
I'm not entirely certain that the changes CCP introduced are the correct ones, party because the existing T2 BPOs are still out there. This will prevent anyone not holding them from really catching up. Yes, they are not as much of an advantage as before, but they are still too much financial power in the hands of too few.
I would suggest that they change the entire Blueprint concept to be more like current copyright or Patent law. The idea behind copyright and Patent law is that it allows a monopoly on an item or idea, but only for a LIMITED TIME. After that the idea or item enters into the Public domain, where it can be used by anyone.
What I would suggest is as follows:
Keep BPC invention the same as it is. Perhaps make the odds of success a bit better, so as to allow younger players easier access to the invention process. Of course, the BPC's would still have the exact same "limited run" function that they do now. X amount of copies, and then it's gone. Somewhat like licensing a technology from a Patent holder.
BPO's should also be allowed to be invented, but at a much higher cost with a success rate only 50% that of BPC's. Also, to mimic the Copyright concept, while BPO's will allow the manufacturing of unlimited numbers of the items or ships, they will last a fixed amount of TIME. Say, 60-90 days, after which they will expire and be useless.
Just like regular copyright, if you "invent" a BPO, you need to capitalize on it right away, or give up the ISK. This will still allow large corps and alliances to make tons of cash, but no more ISK printing machines.
Of course, to make this work, the current BPOs in-game MUST be put on the BPO expiration timer. The current BPO's are unbalanced, and permanent ISK factories must be forever removed from EVE.
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Aldee
Federated Holdings
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Na'Thuul
Well, if you want to compare T2 BPOs with patents, most real-life patents are only valid for a set amount of years
Correct, the time given to r/l patents is 20 yrs so I say we cut that in half and make T2 bpos good for 10 yrs then they expire. 
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cheru
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: c0rn1
...
I question all the people in here who kept complaining for months about t2 and stuff and forced CCP into doing that:
What did you gain? Wasn't it a bit short-sighted to saw at the own branch you're standing on? Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
...
I don't care about wealth. I want to spend my Eve-playtime blowing up other player's ships. I want to use the gear I have skills for (t2) without beeing forced to grind away too much time to earn an unreasonable amount of isk to pay unreasonable prices for t2 items.
I like the feeling of "real" loss when my ship blows up, but neither do I want the isk earning process to be a chore nor do I want an isk printing item (oldskool t2 bpo) to provide me with endless isk, taking away the real loss feeling.
Thats why I think Invention and the seeding of more t2 bpos is a step in the right direction if they bring us reasonable t2 prices.
.................................................
been there
done that |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
The entire concept of BPO's was flawed from the beginning.
Allowing someone an in-perpetuity license to create T2 items and ships on-the-cheap is an insanely imbalancing method of handling it. What you get is the situation we currently have; A small handful of VERY powerful alliances and corps hold T2 BPO's that have a practical monopoly on those items, allowing them to essentially hold the rest of EVE hostage to their predatory pricing.
I'm not entirely certain that the changes CCP introduced are the correct ones, party because the existing T2 BPOs are still out there. This will prevent anyone not holding them from really catching up. Yes, they are not as much of an advantage as before, but they are still too much financial power in the hands of too few.
I would suggest that they change the entire Blueprint concept to be more like current copyright or Patent law. The idea behind copyright and Patent law is that it allows a monopoly on an item or idea, but only for a LIMITED TIME. After that the idea or item enters into the Public domain, where it can be used by anyone.
What I would suggest is as follows:
Keep BPC invention the same as it is. Perhaps make the odds of success a bit better, so as to allow younger players easier access to the invention process. Of course, the BPC's would still have the exact same "limited run" function that they do now. X amount of copies, and then it's gone. Somewhat like licensing a technology from a Patent holder.
BPO's should also be allowed to be invented, but at a much higher cost with a success rate only 50% that of BPC's. Also, to mimic the Copyright concept, while BPO's will allow the manufacturing of unlimited numbers of the items or ships, they will last a fixed amount of TIME. Say, 60-90 days, after which they will expire and be useless.
Just like regular copyright, if you "invent" a BPO, you need to capitalize on it right away, or give up the ISK. This will still allow large corps and alliances to make tons of cash, but no more ISK printing machines.
Of course, to make this work, the current BPOs in-game MUST be put on the BPO expiration timer. The current BPO's are unbalanced, and permanent ISK factories must be forever removed from EVE.
One of the reasons you put up is to allow younger players to more cash more quickly.
Eve with it's long term structure was never meant to make "quick isk". If you look at the map and look at the average age of the players sitting in those "few" powerful alliances. Those are all long-time players.
Eve always held long-term goals for their players until the latest implements into the game. This is one of the reasons why I started to play eve. It seperated itself off the market of all other MMO(RP)G due to it's fact that long hard work pays off in the end.
ALWAYS
if older player join those older alliances and profit of it or not. But it kept the building of Empires available within Eve. Recent actions do not. It degenerates Eve to a random MMO(RP)G.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Calamitty
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
you are making an assumption that everything is about wealth and not accesability.
if i was in your shoes i would marvel at the world created in EvE and how one could practice different political ideologies.
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Thoric Frosthammer
Fallen Angels Inc
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:20:00 -
[20]
The fact you have made money in a certain way for a long time grants you no divine or legal right to continue making money in that fashion in the future. To believe otherwise is to become the RIAA.
Bottom line, if the game is to grow, it needs new players. New players must feel they have a chance to compete in the economic facet of the game or they will not play. Artificial monopolies derived simply from being around at the right time are antithetical to good game play.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
C0VEN
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:25:00 -
[21]
if T2 BPOs were like patents, then those patents have just expired.
welcome to the era of generic, cheaper t2 BPCs, mroe choice, less quality.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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semp
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:45:00 -
[22]
I understand your view point, im a T2 BPO collector myself.
But consider this, with the old system there is no way any corp or even alliance could produce all the items their pilots required. True they could trade the items they had for other types of items etc, thus getting them at a reduced cost....but unless you have a Crow BPO, there was no way you were ever going to be able to build one.
Also the Science skill set was the biggest waste of SP in Eve. very few of them were actually any real use to either the player or the corp, they were just used to increase daily RP totals....for a lottery that never really worked right 
At least this way a corp can produce the specific ships and mods their pilots need, and those chars that invested months of training into their science skills can actually put them to good use.
I for one think invention is a welcome introduction to the game.
Great news! You were successful in producing a new Tech II blueprint!
Completing this job was fairly comfortable for you and didn't tax your talents too much.
Blueprint details:
Blueprint Type: Heavy Missile Launcher II Blueprint
Number of Runs: 10
Material Level: -5
Productivity Level: -1
Woot
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.28 18:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 28/03/2007 18:45:26
hey, if you get to keep the T2 bpos,
I should have been able to keep my Crusie lancher kessies
.... or the mines... etc...
but they took it anyways....
edit: but.. yeah.. as you mentioned... isnt the hulk an "epic" item that is created by a select few for isk =P ?
hehehe.
-Siggi-
""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:06:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 28/03/2007 19:03:35
Originally by: c0rn1
One of the reasons you put up is to allow younger players to more cash more quickly.
Eve with it's long term structure was never meant to make "quick isk".
BINGO!
No quick ISK for ANYBODY, long term players or not.
You keep talking about "long term investment" but let's be honest here. If you have a T2 BPO from the lottery, what "investment" is there? It's a dang LOTTERY! Lotteries BY DEFINITION are NOT investments!
Basically, if you have an old-style T2 BPO you have been granted cheap, easy and quick ISK by the gods of CCP. You have an artificial monopoly through no merit or investment of your own, you were just LUCKY. That right there is the surest way to drive away new players. If they see what amounts to random acts of "god" in the game granting some players or groups the ability to make as much ISK as they want for as long as they want, they won't bother staying because they know they can't compete.
With my method, new players have a better chance of gaining SOME ISK, enough to get them involved in the science and invention concept and "hooked" into the game. It also allows for REAL investment into BPO and T2 BPO creation, as only the larger and wealthier groups will have the funds to continually re-invest funds and mats in BPO research and invention.
Ultimately, it's obvious that's what you are really complaining about. Your free ride has been taken away and you are whining. Even though I came up with a perfectly viable method for you, your corp, and anyone to be able to make a time and ISK investment and get a good reward with some risk, you still want your free ride and are going to have a stomping tantrum until you get it back.
Well, have fun holding your breath. The rest of us will enjoy watching you turn various shades of blue, because the days of the free ride are over bucko. And really, if it bothers you that much, you know where the door is. Use it.
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App Rentoo
Caldari
Gnomes Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:15:00 -
[25]
The only bad thing with invention, is that it wasnt introduced earlier. T2 lottery was always a flawed system.
@ the OP : So bad, so sad, your isk printing machine is now less effective. Cry more.
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Miriam Mar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Miriam Mar on 28/03/2007 19:21:52
Your patents have now run out. Prepare to compete with the unwashed masses.
Whine, or adapt, up to you.
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Miriam Mar
Your patents have now run out. Prepare to compete with the masses of (insert typical low-cost asian country of choice) cheap copies.
Whine, or adapt, up to you.
oooo... alittle dash of roleplay.... I like...
-Siggi-
""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:28:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one
There sure as hell is a good reason to, in 0.0.
People dont buy Hulks for the mining ability, but the tank ability to not be insta-popped by dangerous 0.0 rats.
Thats why you see people mining in Battleships, people who dont want to get wtfpwned by any and everything, and might not have the skills for a Hulk.
In a word, Retriever/Coveter SUCK BADLY in any kind of dangerous environment.
Sorry, didnt mean to derail, just a big gripe of mine.
As for the T2 BPO Lottery, good riddance, even if it takes a while for CCP to tweak it properly, particularly in regards to component costs and missing items.
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emepror
Gallente
Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.03.28 19:54:00 -
[29]
isnt invention the ground work to lower t2 to make it todays t1 so t3 can come in soon?
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Dravin Dread
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Dravin Dread
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
Well, it's more:
The implicated needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Because there's no actual need to mine in a hulk for example. A covetor does the job as good as that one. Mining foreman skills are more worth than a hulk. And those skills are cheap and available to everybody.
A few implicated the masses that they NEED it to mine effectively which was a blatant lie. As well as they implicated the masses that they NEED t2 stuff to compete which was a blatant lie as well.
Regards
c0rn1
This response is short sighted and selfish. The needs of the many are to feel that they can advance in the game by getting the next best ship. Restricted supply hurts the game. So you don't get as much ISK as you did before, but the higher levels of game play will be more accessible to more players. You want your monopoly, I can understand it, you'd not be playnig a game such as this if you didn't want to fantasticly wealthy, even in a fantasy land. Heck I want it too, but I also want the game to be to be fun.
Your fun is to have your monopoly, it's understandable. But it's not fun for others that don't have a monopoly. Perhaps if everyone had a monopoly of something that everyone needed, it would work out, but that's not the way it is.
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Rab
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:23:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Miriam Mar
Edited by: Miriam Mar on 28/03/2007 19:21:52
Your patents have now run out. Prepare to compete with the unwashed masses.
Whine, or adapt, up to you.
Of course the patent system as estiblished would allow those with a 20 year patent to know thats what they have at the start, equally it would allow purchasers of patents to know if it had, say, 5 years or 3 weeks left, and allow the buyers to know the run remaining before it 'becomes public'
So, keeping with this patent system, as someone that has purchased for fair isk a blueprint last week to what im sure is a brand new item (no information actually showing how long my original has existed), you can start my 20 years off now thanks :P
- In an infinite universe, everything is definite. - |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:29:00 -
[32]
First of all, T2 is not a luxury item anymore. Its almost become standard on any ship. One of many reasons I left deep space was that I could not live by the "dont fly what you cant afford to loose" rule anymore. It was too costy, and I could not keep the income side higher then the expense side. I left. Turned into a miner. Not really by a choice i made myself, but rather my wallet made for me.
In many ways it was the greed of the producers that made CCP have to take this decision. I have no problem with producers trying to charge as much as they can. Supply and demand and all that. But it simply dont work. The ratio of supply vs player population vs price is too askewed. And that is not good. Because a market is more then supply and demand. Its also about being able to compete. Not neccesary by price, but at least being able to bring a product to the market. Only then does the market work.
Originally by: Eldo Davip
PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT.
WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Philiso Badagn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:38:00 -
[33]
nice essay
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Abye
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:51:00 -
[34]
Meh Corn1, go play a few month without your own T2 industry backing you up and then come again. And speaking about pure ISK, a healthy T1 industry can supply you with ISK, too. But buying everything in empire sucks.
The lead designers already stated that issuing a limited amount of BPOs was a mistake and they are trying to correct it with invention getting cheaper and cheaper.
Your most ridiculous assumption was about the second release of BPOs. Hell, playerbase quadrupled, you plainly HAD to increase the BPO amount or the prices would explode on wanted items.
Quote:
I never complained when I was a newcomer in this game because there were long-term goals waiting for me to achieve. I could PvP with t1 gear as well as I can now with t2 gear.
Sure, try to outsnipe the enemy fleet without tech2 ammo
___
Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected]) |
Jaxxon Voers
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:03:00 -
[35]
has anyone considered that this entire change could open the door for T3 items? instead of crying, maybe a Darwinistic approach would be more practical? Adapt or die, amoebas.
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Exiled One
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:10:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Exiled One on 28/03/2007 21:07:19
As quite a few of the people here have guessed it, c0rn1 you are an idiot. Hint: t3.
edit: Defining t2 as luxury - priceless, Darwin at it's best.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Abye
Meh Corn1, go play a few month without your own T2 industry backing you up and then come again. And speaking about pure ISK, a healthy T1 industry can supply you with ISK, too. But buying everything in empire sucks.
The lead designers already stated that issuing a limited amount of BPOs was a mistake and they are trying to correct it with invention getting cheaper and cheaper.
Your most ridiculous assumption was about the second release of BPOs. Hell, playerbase quadrupled, you plainly HAD to increase the BPO amount or the prices would explode on wanted items.
Quote:
I never complained when I was a newcomer in this game because there were long-term goals waiting for me to achieve. I could PvP with t1 gear as well as I can now with t2 gear.
Sure, try to outsnipe the enemy fleet without tech2 ammo
1stly, After 2 years of playing I came into the situation that I have a corp backing me up with t2 market cash. Before that, I worked hard to have my t2 fitted Battleships. Before I joined the corp I am in now, I had 4 tempests, a hac, several cruiser and interceptors fully fitted with t2 items only due to ratting.
2ndly, You do not have to fight on the opponents' terms. If you do that, even t2 ships won't help ya. Fight on your terms and things are perfect. The most fear for a t2 sniper is not a t2 sniper. it's a well placed covert ops and a couple interceptors :)
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:14:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Exiled One
Edited by: Exiled One on 28/03/2007 21:07:19
As quite a few of the people here have guessed it, c0rn1 you are an idiot. Hint: t3.
edit: Defining t2 as luxury - priceless, Darwin at it's best.
thank you for your politeness.
Just a hint: Read and understand!
- Several billions were invested into t2 BPO as a long-term investment.
- 1 of the 2 options were enough to supply the demand. not invention and a t2 bpo seeding at the same time.
=> check the market how it reacts on one thing. then look if you have to do more adjusting.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Abye
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: c0rn1
2ndly, You do not have to fight on the opponents' terms. If you do that, even t2 ships won't help ya. Fight on your terms and things are perfect. The most fear for a t2 sniper is not a t2 sniper. it's a well placed covert ops and a couple interceptors :)
Since you dodge some of my arguments I dodge yours: Look, dictors and Covert Ops are tech2 ships !
___
Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected]) |
Exiled One
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Exiled One
Edited by: Exiled One on 28/03/2007 21:07:19
As quite a few of the people here have guessed it, c0rn1 you are an idiot. Hint: t3.
edit: Defining t2 as luxury - priceless, Darwin at it's best.
thank you for your politeness.
Just a hint: Read and understand!
- Several billions were invested into t2 BPO as a long-term investment.
- 1 of the 2 options were enough to supply the demand. not invention and a t2 bpo seeding at the same time.
=> check the market how it reacts on one thing. then look if you have to do more adjusting.
Don't cry I have a plaster [:: [ ] ::]. Life's a waste of time or so your sig states, so are you, don't you agree? Adapt or die, emo boy.
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All Clear
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:17:00 -
[41]
reserved
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:18:00 -
[42]
Having the T2 market dependent on a limited number of manually seeded T2 BPO's had a number of serious flaws.
1. The amount of T2 items on the market did not reflect the number of players.
2. Several items had all/most T2 BPO's controlled by cartels, enabling them to earn huge amounts of money to further expand their monopoly.
3. New players could not get a foothold in the T2 market at all.
4. etc.
Invention is a decent compromise which will fix most of these problems, while still keeping T2 BPO's a valuable item to have. You'll not earn the obscene amounts of cash you have until now, but the T2 BPO owner will still be able to produce T2 items cheaper and easier than inventors.
General advice: Stop whining! |
gfldex
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:27:00 -
[43]
Originally by: c0rn1
I question all the people in here who kept complaining for months about t2 and stuff and forced CCP into doing that:
What did you gain? Wasn't it a bit short-sighted to saw at the own branch you're standing on?
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
To say it with Granny Watherwax: "Things are not important, people are.".
--
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of sayed games. That never stopped smart game designers from making good games.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:27:00 -
[44]
T2 bpo's are still good investments. Actually they are excellent investments. And with the current invention there is no way that a bpo hold will suffer real losses, that is that he has to sell stuff below production costs. The only dangerous thing for a t2 bpo holder is another t2 bpo of the same item competing with him.
T2 went from luxury good to a semi-mass product. The now lowered profit margain (maybe 400% instead of 2000%) is compensated with the higher turnover, thus resulting in an even total profit.
There is still good profit in the T2 market, especially in the supply chain stuff!
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:35:00 -
[45]
stop whining.
either you have had enough time to make MEGATONS of ISK with your Hulk bpos
OR
you just got lucky on a t2 bpo which is still a few mill out of nothing
OR
you just bought tons of t2 bpos for the low-panic-prices and are trying to stop them from devaluating.
in no case you are the "poor guy", just greedy.
BPOs will ALLWAYS be BETTER than invention cause you have positive me&pe whitout any further costs.
if an inventor makes 50mil on a hulk you still make 70mil.
dont like your bpos? sell em!
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Olixia Castitatis
Gallente
Svefn-G-Englar
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 21:41:00 -
[46]
You got hit square in the crotch with the nerf bat.
It happens; get over it.
(Hey look ma' imma usin' semicolons!!1)
-----------------------
<Sig goes here> |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Requiem of Hades
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:48:00 -
[47]
It is good for eVe in the long run because it enhances new players experience. T2s are the base equipment and no more I win because I am T2 and you are T1. Everyone gets to play for fun.
It does not matter eVe loses one veteran and gains 5 new players. eVe and the majority of the playerbase still win because the more the merrier. It is Massively Multiplayer Online.
eVe +NLINE: T+TAL HELLDEATH
---------
Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 23:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
I don't want to invest in anything. I want to spend my ISK on ships and modules that I will most likely lose in combat. And now that I don't have to pay over inflated prices for t2 modules I can buy more of them. And I am happier. And so less likely to cancel my subscription. So, in my case, CCP did the right thing with invention.
--
The Green Banana Corporation is Recruiting
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 01:21:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
It is good for eVe in the long run because it enhances new players experience. T2s are the base equipment and no more I win because I am T2 and you are T1. Everyone gets to play for fun.
It does not matter eVe loses one veteran and gains 5 new players. eVe and the majority of the playerbase still win because the more the merrier. It is Massively Multiplayer Online.
eVe +NLINE: T+TAL HELLDEATH
Eve was never based on the more the merrier. It was a game from nerds for nerds. It took is charma from a market close to the r/l market. Having special items you can have. Being special and individual in trading or producing or PvPing.
Eve will come down to a game like any other MMO(RP)G.
-> Grinding.
Grind the belts/rats/missions for cash. 2h in a belt with a hulk is more profitable than a mediocre t2 bpo soon peer week. the t2 bpo is more effort to handle. Plus a hulk you can fly after 2 months.
Ship in the items you need, produce it, skill your character so you can actually produce it, bring it on the market. that take more than 2h a week.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Trishtan DeMore
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 01:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
I don't want to invest in anything. I want to spend my ISK on ships and modules that I will most likely lose in combat. And now that I don't have to pay over inflated prices for t2 modules I can buy more of them. And I am happier. And so less likely to cancel my subscription. So, in my case, CCP did the right thing with invention.
Exactly that is the problem. You don't want to invest anything but still have your ships.
We invested 3+ years into a game to get the things we have taken out of our hands within 2 patches.
95% of our BPo are from BUYING and not a result of the R&D agent. We invested several 100 billions which we produced by our own hands with grinding belts/rats/missions to reach that or managing our productions.
And now it's gone?
Just because YOU do not want to put the effort in, we did? And you get it handed freely over?
Thank you
c0rn1
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 01:25:00 -
[51]
wrong char above
sorry, that's me.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 01:51:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Trishtan DeMore
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
I don't want to invest in anything. I want to spend my ISK on ships and modules that I will most likely lose in combat. And now that I don't have to pay over inflated prices for t2 modules I can buy more of them. And I am happier. And so less likely to cancel my subscription. So, in my case, CCP did the right thing with invention.
Exactly that is the problem. You don't want to invest anything but still have your ships.
We invested 3+ years into a game to get the things we have taken out of our hands within 2 patches.
95% of our BPo are from BUYING and not a result of the R&D agent. We invested several 100 billions which we produced by our own hands with grinding belts/rats/missions to reach that or managing our productions.
And now it's gone?
Just because YOU do not want to put the effort in, we did? And you get it handed freely over?
Thank you
c0rn1
Pros:
1)Tech2 BPOS aren't worthless, they just don't accumulate wealth at insane levels anymore.(not all of them did btw)
2)Tech2 BPOs are still superior to invention copies
3)Newer players are so far behind that they would have to grind 10 times harder than you unless they were lucky and "won" a bpo in the lottery.
4)Invention allows anyone willing to put in the work and effort to be totally self sufficient.
5)Now there is market competition, pvp in a way. Unless you had a tech 2 bpo there was no way to compete against a someone who had a tech 2 bpo(in the market). Now tech2 bpos still have the advantage but they have competition and cant pull 1000% profit margins out of their a$%$ anymore.
6)Invention isn't a 1 way street. Now ship builders with tech 2 bpos can start putting out fully equipped models completely using internal manufacturing. Nothing stops existing tech2 owners from delving into invention also.
7)I'm sure there will be corps that spring up who specialize in invention. If you want long term investment opportunities maybe investing into startup corps is the answer.
Cons:
1)YOU dont make as much money anymore.
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Kylar Renpurs
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 02:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 29/03/2007 02:11:29
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 29/03/2007 02:07:52
I make 4 times the manufacturing cost on my T2 items because people still pay that much for them. Truth is *more* than half that manufacturing cost is datacores and decryptors, on top of the fact that they dont always work.
So in fact T2 BPO owners make about 10 times as much on what they put in.
And what someone said is right, T2 BPO's were a luxury for the few who got far, and in the face of invention they are still a luxury as they can sell at costs below what inventors can afford even with 100% success rate and still make about 200% profit on their investment/manufacturing costs.
With the growing population, this gives the T2 BPO owners a really unfair advantage, as with each new player/purchaser, they make exponentially more profit, so for a growing audience the system is very flawed. So invention has drastically gimped the grip of T2 owners on the market. That said, they still have an incredibly large advantage.
On a flipside, (shameless self promotion) I'm in a startup corp in invention and T2 manufacturing, with a history of mission running. With a bit of creativity and capital, i'm now close to obtaining a billion every two or so weeks (at present estimates, I earn about 45 mil a day). I'm open to doing manufacturing orders for T2 components on request :),,,, *thinks about posting this service somewhere*
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 02:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Death Merchant
Pros:
1)Tech2 BPOS aren't worthless, they just don't accumulate wealth at insane levels anymore.(not all of them did btw)
2)Tech2 BPOs are still superior to invention copies
3)Newer players are so far behind that they would have to grind 10 times harder than you unless they were lucky and "won" a bpo in the lottery.
4)Invention allows anyone willing to put in the work and effort to be totally self sufficient.
5)Now there is market competition, pvp in a way. Unless you had a tech 2 bpo there was no way to compete against a someone who had a tech 2 bpo(in the market). Now tech2 bpos still have the advantage but they have competition and cant pull 1000% profit margins out of their a$%$ anymore.
6)Invention isn't a 1 way street. Now ship builders with tech 2 bpos can start putting out fully equipped models completely using internal manufacturing. Nothing stops existing tech2 owners from delving into invention also.
7)I'm sure there will be corps that spring up who specialize in invention. If you want long term investment opportunities maybe investing into startup corps is the answer.
Cons:
1)YOU dont make as much money anymore.
1) it wasn't even slightly an insane level at all. The Cap recharger II BPo made 300M/day at it's best time. A 10/10 complex does 1bn/day at least in overseer PLUS the items you get out of them. Guess why RA holds it's hands onto the plexes in all regions even those of GOON/TCF and KOS.
2) if you mass inventions, it's no problem for you to have a line where you invent -> build (@ ME -8 you got ~ 12.5% higher build price than a t2 bpo owner) -> sell at the same time. with boosting inventions and removing the t2 lottery the datacore prices will fall down to ridiculously low prices. Once you got the interface, it will not disappear anymore.
3) when I started 3 years ago I had to grind as well for 2 years to have my ships I wanted. And I didn't have a hulk or a covetor to mine.
4) I said that inventing would've been more than enough to fill the market and have the inventioneers a proper margin on their items. With the simultaneous seeding of t2 BPo AND the boost of invention again, the prices will fall down to a margin of 20-30% which is by far not enough to produce t2 items profitable. Mining or missioning is far more efficient.
5) No, the market competition is over because the prices are not worth a competition at all. it will be always close to the building price which is not efficient at all. you'll do the same cash with t1 bpo as with t2 bpo. Communism market ftl. Or people will just build the items for themselves to be self-sufficient.
6) Can I place fully equipped t2 ships on the market? If not, I think that is not needed in any way.
7) I cannot invest into them because they won't do any profit anymore. So why should I put any ISK or effort into it. it doesn't make sense at all.
Cons:
1) All people who invested into such BPO are screwed over by CCP. Billions wasted into dust and you get nothing from it anymore. Worthless blue items sitting in your hangar you once trusted in CCP they would keep an eye on holding the market stable and would NOT be trying to degenerate eve into a grinding game.
What will happen?
Old-Timers will look if other games are available. The only special things are now dropped items of Officers or complexes.
Comparing to any other MMO(RP)G this is what exactly is the condition there. The special things you get by grinding rats and look for an item that drops. The market will be absolutely communistic and won't be able to supply a group of people anymore.
Why should I invest in it if I can make 1bn/day in a complex?
If t2 items were so expensive and whatnot, Why, I ask, happened so much PvP before? How could people afford them? because even with a 1000% margin they were cost-effective.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kylar Renpurs
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 02:41:00 -
[55]
Originally by: c0rn1
1) it wasn't even slightly an insane level at all. The Cap recharger II BPo made 300M/day at it's best time. A 10/10 complex does 1bn/day at least in overseer PLUS the items you get out of them. Guess why RA holds it's hands onto the plexes in all regions even those of GOON/TCF and KOS.
2) if you mass inventions, it's no problem for you to have a line where you invent -> build (@ ME -8 you got ~ 12.5% higher build price than a t2 bpo owner) -> sell at the same time. with boosting inventions and removing the t2 lottery the datacore prices will fall down to ridiculously low prices. Once you got the interface, it will not disappear anymore.
4) I said that inventing would've been more than enough to fill the market and have the inventioneers a proper margin on their items. With the simultaneous seeding of t2 BPo AND the boost of invention again, the prices will fall down to a margin of 20-30% which is by far not enough to produce t2 items profitable. Mining or missioning is far more efficient.
Cons:
1)...
Old-Timers will look if other games are available. The only special things are now dropped items of Officers or complexes.
Comparing to any other MMO(RP)G this is what exactly is the condition there. The special things you get by grinding rats and look for an item that drops. The market will be absolutely communistic and won't be able to supply a group of people anymore.
Why should I invest in it if I can make 1bn/day in a complex?
If t2 items were so expensive and whatnot, Why, I ask, happened so much PvP before? How could people afford them? because even with a 1000% margin they were cost-effective.
Sorry? I think you countered yourself there.
Why do big alliances hold those? *because* they are holding low sec turf. A person manufacturing T2 equipment in high sec has a lot less risk and *deserves* a lot less reward. And if you choose to manuf it in low sec? thats your own silly fault for making a sublime task ridiculously more difficult.
Point 2 of yours, 12.5% manufacturing is complete trollop. It's more like 50% of the manufacturing costs, which is a huge step up from the prices that T2 bpo owners could set.
Its doing the same old story of getting people to venture more into the vast excitement of 0.0. As for the 1000% profit margin still being cost effective? Because the PvP community purchases the mods, and the PvP community holds the 1 bil per day complexes.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 02:45:00 -
[56]
And a further question, which would be nice to have an official answer here, because that's not only a concern of me as of my whole corp.
What were you thinking by crushing the market in that way? Is it you intention to move eve into a grinding game for the mass market?
When I started to play Eve I read dev blogs that Eve would've been made out of the old Elite spirit which had a massive non-communistic market. It was a game made from "Elite" (that was a game on the C64 in the 80s with vector graphics) nerds for players of that kind. The average age in eve was once very high due to the fact that alot old "Elite" players joined it. You had alot of people which enjoyed exactly the fact in long-term investments and a massive UNFAIR market with corners where you could make good cash, etc..
This is for example what me and a huge part of the corp here brought them into eve. It's not the PvP battles with a ship. It was the battle to reach the goals and have something worthy in your hands.
I mean, please take a look at the things going on right now and the crush it has for all those old-timers which you might consider worthless now because you explored the mass market. But these old-timers spend their cash for 4 years into eve to reach a status they have now. Without them the servers and your dream job wouldn't have been paid.
(dream job because I read in another devblog that you loved the fact that people are supporting your ideas and dreams that much)
Eve really is degenerating into a mass market game with mass products in the market for almost fixed low prices and grindable EPIC items for people who wants Eve to be like WoW.
They want to logon, fight, don't lose anything and then logoff an hour later again without putting any effort in it.
I'd like to have an honest answer of you, why you actually did that? And if you go on like that?
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Clair Bear
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Posted - 2007.03.29 03:14:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Clair Bear on 29/03/2007 03:13:15
Edited by: Clair Bear on 29/03/2007 03:12:31
Originally by: c0rn1
1) it wasn't even slightly an insane level at all. The Cap recharger II BPo made 300M/day at it's best time. A 10/10 complex does 1bn/day at least in overseer PLUS the items you get out of them. Guess why RA holds it's hands onto the plexes in all regions even those of GOON/TCF and KOS.
Complex territory can be taken away. Your BPO can not (except by introduction of mechanisms like invention).
I'd be fine without invention if there was some way for me to 1. gain the BPO I want or 2. take away your BPO through some PvP action. Since neither of those options are available, I'm fine with invention.
Also, farming a complex is an active activity. You have to be online and doing stuff to produce, meaning you can't do another active activity like ratting, mission running or gate camping. Or sleeping.
T2 bpo production is a passive activity which stacks with any other passive and active activities you perform.
Quote:
2) if you mass inventions, it's no problem for you to have a line where you invent -> build (@ ME -8 you got ~ 12.5% higher build price than a t2 bpo owner) -> sell at the same time. with boosting inventions and removing the t2 lottery the datacore prices will fall down to ridiculously low prices. Once you got the interface, it will not disappear anymore.
Another BS statement any industrialist will call you on. Your BPO can be researched, for both time (worthless) and materials ($). Even if datacores were free the inventor still has to perform more steps (shopping for them, ferrying them around) and spend more time (using invention slots) to cough up their BPC. Magnify this timesink because invention fails often. And guess what, you still have a 20% materials advantage. Since it's such a giant pain to do research, we can assume nobody will bother for less than a 30% profit margin. So you've got a 50% profit margin to play with in a typical case. It's not a 1000% ISK press, but still great!
Quote:
3) when I started 3 years ago I had to grind as well for 2 years to have my ships I wanted. And I didn't have a hulk or a covetor to mine.
And back then a cruiser was something to shoot for. Times change. BSes are the new frigates, and supercapship blobfare is the norm. I'm not sure what your point is.
Quote:
5) No, the market competition is over because the prices are not worth a competition at all. it will be always close to the building price which is not efficient at all. you'll do the same cash with t1 bpo as with t2 bpo. Communism market ftl. Or people will just build the items for themselves to be self-sufficient.
In this game you can't do EVERYTHING. There are opportunity costs for all activities. Self sufficiency means you spend all your time in logistics, not pewpewing. And just because an activity doesn't pull in half a billion a day doesn't mean someone else won't do it for 100 million/day.
Quote:
Cons:
1) All people who invested into such BPO are screwed over by CCP. Billions wasted into dust and you get nothing from it anymore. Worthless blue items sitting in your hangar you once trusted in CCP they would keep an eye on holding the market stable and would NOT be trying to degenerate eve into a grinding game.
Lots of people with t2 goods (hulks, e.g.) also got hit by this as the items devaule. You had plenty of warning, invention's been with us for a long time, it's only natural it gets fixed.
Quote:
What will happen?
Old-Timers will look if other games are available. The only special things are now dropped items of Officers or complexes.
Comparing to any other MMO(RP)G this is what exactly is the condition there. The special things you get by grinding rats and look for an item that drops. The market will be absolutely communistic and won't be able to supply a group of people anymore.
Can I have their stuff?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 03:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Sorry? I think you countered yourself there.
Why do big alliances hold those? *because* they are holding low sec turf. A person manufacturing T2 equipment in high sec has a lot less risk and *deserves* a lot less reward. And if you choose to manuf it in low sec? thats your own silly fault for making a sublime task ridiculously more difficult.
Point 2 of yours, 12.5% manufacturing is complete trollop. It's more like 50% of the manufacturing costs, which is a huge step up from the prices that T2 bpo owners could set.
Its doing the same old story of getting people to venture more into the vast excitement of 0.0. As for the 1000% profit margin still being cost effective? Because the PvP community purchases the mods, and the PvP community holds the 1 bil per day complexes.
Ok, I will make some examples for you:
Cap Recharger II (since I had it before):
Building price with BPo: 150k
Building price with Invention: 225k
400% profit on it:
-> 1M sales price
Revenue per day: 30 items -> 30M
Building cost: 4.5M
Building cost invention: 6.75M
BPO owner: 25.5M/day
Inventioneer: 23.25M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Difference: 2.25M/day
1h ratting in a belt in 0.0: 30M
Vagabond:
Building price with BPo: 30M
Building price inventioneer: around 6M if you take failed inventions into account
Sales cost: 400% -> 120M
Revenue per day: 1 (if you really got a high PE going)
BPo Owner: 90M
Inventioneer: 60M
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Difference: 30M/day
1h ratting in a belt in 0.0: 30M
1h mining in a belt in 0.0
What do we see here.
-> The prices were not that ridiculous to work profitable with them. A little adjustment to half the price would've been good enough to not destroy the worth of t2 BPO as long-term investment.
-> The prices for modules are not worth producing anymore at all.
-> Ship BPo owners have a little advantage but it'd be not worth investing any cash into t2 BPo at all as long-term investment.
Why did t2 prices skyrocket before? Because the demand was so high. Invention OR a continous t2 bpo seeding (like 1 of every item per 2 months would've solved the growing user number and with it the demand completely).
There was no need to make such drastic steps at all. People could afford it before and the continous seeding or the limited number of datacores handed out by the R&D agent would've been more than enough to satisfy the demand. A slow increasing of the datacores to check the impact would've been good.
At the moment I can get 2500 datacores out of my research agents for my research points. So datacore prices are basically non-existant. Interfaces I just have to buy or find once for unlimited use. All t1 items are cheaply produced.
Where do I find the fact that T2 BPO are any investment at all?
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Clair Bear
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:31:00 -
[59]
Originally by: c0rn1
Ok, I will make some examples for you:
Cap Recharger II (since I had it before):
Building price with BPo: 150k
Building price with Invention: 225k
400% profit on it:
-> 1M sales price
Revenue per day: 30 items -> 30M
Building cost: 4.5M
Building cost invention: 6.75M
BPO owner: 25.5M/day
Inventioneer: 23.25M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends + BPO: 275M/day. Subtract time from 10/10 farming for invention overhead for a bigger differnece. Call it 243M/day for invention + 10/10 complex running. Having a BPO does not prohibit me from missioning, ratting, pewpewing or doing anything else last I checked.
Quote:
-> The prices for modules are not worth producing anymore at all.
For YOU. It's not worth your time (or mine) to shoot veldspar in an Ibis or run level 1 missions either. Heck, there's lots of things that aren't worth doing for you and even me.
Quote:
-> Ship BPo owners have a little advantage but it'd be not worth investing any cash into t2 BPo at all as long-term investment.
I call your bluff. I'm willing to buy your hulk BPO for 1B isk. Ridiculous? Yup, but it's an investment of 'any' cash. And most people would agree 1B qualifies as an investment.
I'm going to guestimate a hulk bpo will be worth about 50M * 356 or 18,250,000,000 ISK by the time datacores and interfaces are free. 18 billion investment for an 18 billion payout over a year. You may not find that worth investing in, but I would bet many people will.
Quote:
Why did t2 prices skyrocket before? Because the demand was so high. Invention OR a continous t2 bpo seeding (like 1 of every item per 2 months would've solved the growing user number and with it the demand completely).
It didn't, and would not have. Everyone *BUT* the owners of a few ISK printing presses saw that.
Quote:
There was no need to make such drastic steps at all. People could afford it before and the continous seeding or the limited number of datacores handed out by the R&D agent would've been more than enough to satisfy the demand. A slow increasing of the datacores to check the impact would've been good.
At the moment I can get 2500 datacores out of my research agents for my research points. So datacore prices are basically non-existant. Interfaces I just have to buy or find once for unlimited use. All t1 items are cheaply produced.
So what you're saying is now you have to compete with others rather than luck out and figure out how to move 2500 datacores to realize a few billion in profit? This seems like a normal part of eve operations.
Quote:
Where do I find the fact that T2 BPO are any investment at all?
I'm willing to invest in your BPO, as I said above. You took a giant hit, as have hoarders of zydrine and owners of current t2 inventory. Things happen. Adapt, or an I have your stuff?
|
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:38:00 -
[60]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 29/03/2007 03:40:51
Originally by: Clair Bear
Originally by: c0rn1
Ok, I will make some examples for you:
Cap Recharger II (since I had it before):
Building price with BPo: 150k
Building price with Invention: 225k
400% profit on it:
-> 1M sales price
Revenue per day: 30 items -> 30M
Building cost: 4.5M
Building cost invention: 6.75M
BPO owner: 25.5M/day
Inventioneer: 23.25M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends + BPO: 275M/day. Subtract time from 10/10 farming for invention overhead for a bigger differnece. Call it 243M/day for invention + 10/10 complex running. Having a BPO does not prohibit me from missioning, ratting, pewpewing or doing anything else last I checked.
Quote:
-> The prices for modules are not worth producing anymore at all.
For YOU. It's not worth your time (or mine) to shoot veldspar in an Ibis or run level 1 missions either. Heck, there's lots of things that aren't worth doing for you and even me.
Quote:
-> Ship BPo owners have a little advantage but it'd be not worth investing any cash into t2 BPo at all as long-term investment.
I call your bluff. I'm willing to buy your hulk BPO for 1B isk. Ridiculous? Yup, but it's an investment of 'any' cash. And most people would agree 1B qualifies as an investment.
I'm going to guestimate a hulk bpo will be worth about 50M * 356 or 18,250,000,000 ISK by the time datacores and interfaces are free. 18 billion investment for an 18 billion payout over a year. You may not find that worth investing in, but I would bet many people will.
Quote:
Why did t2 prices skyrocket before? Because the demand was so high. Invention OR a continous t2 bpo seeding (like 1 of every item per 2 months would've solved the growing user number and with it the demand completely).
It didn't, and would not have. Everyone *BUT* the owners of a few ISK printing presses saw that.
Quote:
There was no need to make such drastic steps at all. People could afford it before and the continous seeding or the limited number of datacores handed out by the R&D agent would've been more than enough to satisfy the demand. A slow increasing of the datacores to check the impact would've been good.
At the moment I can get 2500 datacores out of my research agents for my research points. So datacore prices are basically non-existant. Interfaces I just have to buy or find once for unlimited use. All t1 items are cheaply produced.
So what you're saying is now you have to compete with others rather than luck out and figure out how to move 2500 datacores to realize a few billion in profit? This seems like a normal part of eve operations.
Quote:
Where do I find the fact that T2 BPO are any investment at all?
I'm willing to invest in your BPO, as I said above. You took a giant hit, as have hoarders of zydrine and owners of current t2 inventory. Things happen. Adapt, or an I have your stuff?
You forgot a fine point in all this. this ONLY works when you are able to sell your FULL production.
And how could I sell my full production if everybody as soon as the price has a 50% margin invents them himself?
If I'd had a hulk BPo I'd sell it to you in a few month for that billion. And I'd look at you laughing when you sit on a monthly production (invested capital into the covetors).
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
|
|
Clair Bear
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:53:00 -
[61]
Originally by: c0rn1
You forgot a fine point in all this. this ONLY works when you are able to sell your FULL production.
And how could I sell my full production if everybody as soon as the price has a 50% margin invents them himself?
If I'd had a hulk BPo I'd sell it to you in a few month for that billion. And I'd look at you laughing when you sit on a monthly production (invested capital into the covetors).
Ok, aside from the invention timesink and luck based outcome, I've got a 12.5+9% materials advantage over the inventor. That works out to 10 construction blocks, 16 crystaline carbonide armor plates, etc etc etc. That's ~3 million isk worth, roughly, in competitive advantage per unit if I'm competing with crazy inventors willing to sell at cost and who get datacores and data interfaces are free. Oh, did I mention it takes forever and a century to make a BPC that's of invention quality, and those are not free either?
Invention is enough of a PITA that t2 items will not be dumped below cost like some t1 ships. I'd still make at *least* 50M/pu on that bad boy for a very long time to come. Only time will tell which one of us is right.
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Kylar Renpurs
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:56:00 -
[62]
Quote:
You forgot a fine point in all this. this ONLY works when you are able to sell your FULL production.
And how could I sell my full production if everybody as soon as the price has a 50% margin invents them himself?
If I'd had a hulk BPo I'd sell it to you in a few month for that billion. And I'd look at you laughing when you sit on a monthly production (invested capital into the covetors).
Nice change of tune on the side there 
And selling full production? Well, i'm not sure of the meaning of your sentence (bolded for reference) there, but let me rephrase. To produce a BPC and get the equipment manufactured, the entire process costs the inventor 50% more than a BPO owner. So the BPO owner prices their equipment respectively. It's not a difficult equation.
Plus, a BPO T2 costs a couple billion (depending on type),, so does invention. At the moment to get into ship invention for *one race* (without any guaranteed initial success) you're looking at a billion credit investment which gets you into a small component of the T2 market.
T2 BPO owners *still have* all the aces, and they *still* have the ability to turn over large profit because of the growing player base = greater demand = easier to sell full production.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 04:13:00 -
[63]
Ya know C0rn1,
I've been following this thread, and to be honest, you really don't have a leg to stand on. Plenty of people have been giving you plenty of suggestions and help, and all you are doing is complaining that things aren't going to be the way they were, and you will have to work harder to keep up your profit level.
Well boo hoo. Cry me a freaking river you ungrateful ingrate. You have been making BILLIONS on what was essentially a freebie.
You were GRANTED, through NO investment of your own, at least one T2 BPO that you have been using as a virtual ISK printing press ever since. Now you stand to have some SERIOUS competition and all you can do is cry.
Well I'm sorry, but you get no sympathy from me. As far as I am concerned, the original lottery-awarded T2 BPO's should have been REMOVED from the game and replaced with time-limited T2 BPO's that you would have 30 days to use and then *POOF* gone.
YOU HAVE HAD A FREE RIDE. THERE WAS NO INVESTMENT, STOP LYING ABOUT IT. Now that your gravy train is over, you and all the other T2 BPO holders will just have to put up or shut up. If you don't think you can hack it, then quit and grant your stuff to the Innominate Neutrality corp. At least then all the money and the POS would go to help newbies instead of enriching a selfish elitist jerk like yourself.
One more thing, stop posting. Nobody cares about a spoiled whiny rich kid who lost his money press. You will receive NO sympathy, and the devs will NOT change their plans just because you whine.
In other words...
SHUT UP
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 04:21:00 -
[64]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 29/03/2007 04:18:17
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Nice change of tune on the side there
And selling full production? Well, i'm not sure of the meaning of your sentence (bolded for reference) there, but let me rephrase. To produce a BPC and get the equipment manufactured, the entire process costs the inventor 50% more than a BPO owner. So the BPO owner prices their equipment respectively. It's not a difficult equation.
Plus, a BPO T2 costs a couple billion (depending on type),, so does invention. At the moment to get into ship invention for *one race* (without any guaranteed initial success) you're looking at a billion credit investment which gets you into a small component of the T2 market.
T2 BPO owners *still have* all the aces, and they *still* have the ability to turn over large profit because of the growing player base = greater demand = easier to sell full production.
No, because as a t2 bpo owner, you always have a free and unlimited market which works at a 50% margin above you. EVERYONE can now build t2 stuff for themselves.
In comparison to the market before you flood a market with unlimited items.
Imagine in r/l when EVERYONE gets the knowledge to write Microsoft Windows by themselves. Microsoft would be dead in an instant. Exactly the same happened to the long-term investments done into this market.
All, which put their effort for years into it are left behind with nothing. Every other aspect of the game will be far more profitable than market investments.
Regards
c0rn1
P.S.: And to the writer above me, please troll somewhere else. Thank you! I'd like to have this thread discussed in a mature manner.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kylar Renpurs
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 05:14:00 -
[65]
Originally by: c0rn1
No, because as a t2 bpo owner, you always have a free and unlimited market which works at a 50% margin above you. EVERYONE can now build t2 stuff for themselves.
In comparison to the market before you flood a market with unlimited items.
Imagine in r/l when EVERYONE gets the knowledge to write Microsoft Windows by themselves. Microsoft would be dead in an instant. Exactly the same happened to the long-term investments done into this market.
All, which put their effort for years into it are left behind with nothing. Every other aspect of the game will be far more profitable than market investments.
I still have no idea what your point is. Let me give you a REAL example.
It costs a T2 BPO owner, let me pull a figure out, 1 mil (approx) to manufacture a particular piece of T2 equip.
It costs an inventor 2 mil to produce the same piece.
Where the heck is the problem? The absolute cost-price piece of T2 equipment is 1 mil, any less will mean you run at a loss.
The absolute cost price for an inventor is 2 mil. If the T2 BPO owner puts up equipment at 1.8mil, you're still pulling an 80% profit AND stagnating the ability for inventors to produce equipment worthwhile selling.
So what if everyone *can* invent? They wont if the BPO owner sells at less than the cost to invent it. Get some market strategy,,,
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 05:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
I still have no idea what your point is. Let me give you a REAL example.
It costs a T2 BPO owner, let me pull a figure out, 1 mil (approx) to manufacture a particular piece of T2 equip.
It costs an inventor 2 mil to produce the same piece.
Where the heck is the problem? The absolute cost-price piece of T2 equipment is 1 mil, any less will mean you run at a loss.
The absolute cost price for an inventor is 2 mil. If the T2 BPO owner puts up equipment at 1.8mil, you're still pulling an 80% profit AND stagnating the ability for inventors to produce equipment worthwhile selling.
So what if everyone *can* invent? They wont if the BPO owner sells at less than the cost to invent it. Get some market strategy,,,
And why DOESNT microsoft go dead in the water? Especially with so many better OS options available? Because they can more efficiently produce a product than an individual AND they have a variety of products.
It costs the inventioneer 50% more to produce an item. in your example 1M to 1.5M.
Example Cap recharger II again:
Daily Production (BPO owner): 30 per day
Inventioneers: Unlimited (they can create an unlimited number of BPC basically by repeating the invention process over and over).
My price will be VERY close to the inventioneer production price to keep up with it (that's what I mean with a market of unlimited items 50% above your production price)
I sell it for 1.6-1.8M as you say.
Total profit for me as t2 BPO owner: 30x 800k = 24M
Comparisons of other profitable things:
1h of rat hunting in 0.0: 30M
1h of mining in 0.0: 40-50M (can do that afk most of the time)
1h of mining tritanium in jita with a hulk and skills (if that still would be possible): 15M (can do that afk most of the time)
1h of mining ice in a mackinaw in highsec: 25M (can do that afk most of the time)
3x1h of complex with 3 friends or with 3 accounts of me: 250M/day or 1bn/day + ITEMS (I am safe and sound after the first gate inside the complex, can't be probed or whatnot)
So if I'd have invested 1bn into the cap recharger II bpo, It would amortize after 42 days.
That was what I meant when I said grinding is becoming well more worth than using market strategies or Market PvP to build up a long-term investment.
Microsoft doesn't go dead into the water because they have the copyrights on their products. The copyrights protect them from any other copying the same product unlimited times over, even for a 50% higher production price.
And btw: Microsoft products do have a margin of around 20,000% taking development costs and production into account.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kylar Renpurs
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 06:05:00 -
[67]
Originally by: c0rn1
It costs the inventioneer 50% more to produce an item. in your example 1M to 1.5M.
Example Cap recharger II again:
Daily Production (BPO owner): 30 per day
Inventioneers: Unlimited (they can create an unlimited number of BPC basically by repeating the invention process over and over).
Unlimited BPCs of no more than 14 runs each, each of which taking 2 and a half hours to produce. You can produce copies of your BPC to match that production a lot faster.
Quote:
Total profit for me as t2 BPO owner: 30x 800k = 24M
Comparisons of other profitable things:
1h of rat hunting in 0.0: 30M
1h of mining in 0.0: 40-50M (can do that afk most of the time)
1h of mining tritanium in jita with a hulk and skills (if that still would be possible): 15M (can do that afk most of the time)
1h of mining ice in a mackinaw in highsec: 25M (can do that afk most of the time)
3x1h of complex with 3 friends or with 3 accounts of me: 250M/day or 1bn/day + ITEMS (I am safe and sound after the first gate inside the complex, can't be probed or whatnot)
It takes no more than an hours work to set up a production line for a week, even two weeks, after which you reap the rewards by spending another hour selling the items you've produced. MEANWHILE during these two weeks of production you can go about doing all these other isk producing activities that are apparently more worthwhile.
You choose to set off a production line and do NOTHING while it builds? Thats your problem,,
Quote:
So if I'd have invested 1bn into the cap recharger II bpo, It would amortize after 42 days.
That was what I meant when I said grinding is becoming well more worth than using market strategies or Market PvP to build up a long-term investment.
42 days, thats a reasonable wait for a PERMANENT market advantage. Heck, it took me 40 days to train battleship 5 so i could train for dreadnaughts, is THAT a bad investment to get an advantage over my non-capital using enemies? Let alone the billion I have to spend to fly that advantage, which *may* not turn over any profit.
Quote:
Microsoft doesn't go dead into the water because they have the copyrights on their products. The copyrights protect them from any other copying the same product unlimited times over, even for a 50% higher production price.
And btw: Microsoft products do have a margin of around 20,000% taking development costs and production into account.
Which is why I dont buy microsoft. It's a monopolised piece of cruft.
Quote:
P.S.: And, I might add, I do not talk about me alone. I do talk about a corp of 30 active people who have to be fed with the investments we did earlier. Our corp structure is communistic.
Then your corp needs to switch on to reality. The old BPO system was unfair because nobody could compete with it. They were an I win button in terms of securing an income source. Now you have competition? Tough.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 06:40:00 -
[68]
- I can't copy when I am producing. If I copy, I lose production time.
Production time cap rech II bpo 0/0: 53min20s
Copy time cap rech II bpo 0/0 : 1h40min
I need to setup:
- A freighter to ship the stuff in and out as well as the skilled character for it
- Accounts who have to be at the local market to sell there and adjust prices
- I have to pay broker fees of 3%
- I have to carry the risk that I lose a full freighter with t2 items by pirated or being suicided even in high-sec (check the Outbreak video on the forums)
Please try to understand that I, as the owner of a BPO, have to compete against people who have to pay NOTHING of the above when they just produce the item for themselves. grab a couple eutetic capacitor recharger, a couple datacores and an interface and you and your corp which were all potential customers of me are set for the rest of your eve lifes with cap recharger II.
You don't have to fly to the market and buy it there, you have it dropping from the production line right into your hangar for a price I can't compete with on an at least half-profitable basis which returns the investments I did.
Our corp was real and we tried to invest the money we earned due to hardwork into the market as a long-term investment. The BPO we got were a nice income but didn't make us UBERRICH or anything. It was like you buy shares of ISS and you get a monthly income.
extra:
it's not only microsoft.
How much margin do you think the mouse has which you got in your hands right now?
or the graphic card or the CPU. 500-1000% in average to make it cost-effective.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Merchant Lady
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 07:26:00 -
[69]
I'm so happy, that the former T2-monopolists start to whine. Thx for that.
It shows that everything is going in the right direction.
Generally I'm against "Deus ex machina"-style market regulations, but what I really don't like are monopolists that you can't compete with.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
INVICTUS.
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 07:27:00 -
[70]
Originally by: c0rn1
- I can't copy when I am producing. If I copy, I lose production time.
Production time cap rech II bpo 0/0: 53min20s
Copy time cap rech II bpo 0/0 : 1h40min
I need to setup:
- A freighter to ship the stuff in and out as well as the skilled character for it
- Accounts who have to be at the local market to sell there and adjust prices
- I have to pay broker fees of 3%
- I have to carry the risk that I lose a full freighter with t2 items by pirated or being suicided even in high-sec (check the Outbreak video on the forums)
Please try to understand that I, as the owner of a BPO, have to compete against people who have to pay NOTHING of the above when they just produce the item for themselves. grab a couple eutetic capacitor recharger, a couple datacores and an interface and you and your corp which were all potential customers of me are set for the rest of your eve lifes with cap recharger II.
You don't have to fly to the market and buy it there, you have it dropping from the production line right into your hangar for a price I can't compete with on an at least half-profitable basis which returns the investments I did.
Our corp was real and we tried to invest the money we earned due to hardwork into the market as a long-term investment. The BPO we got were a nice income but didn't make us UBERRICH or anything. It was like you buy shares of ISS and you get a monthly income.
extra:
it's not only microsoft.
How much margin do you think the mouse has which you got in your hands right now?
or the graphic card or the CPU. 500-1000% in average to make it cost-effective.
Those companies have high profit margins for being in a cutting edge market, with high investment and unsure payoff, just like pharmaceutical companies for example.
You have no risk, you are not in a cutting edge market, you don't need to do investment to keep your edge. Only due to the oligopoly nature of the T2 BPO market were you able to get those profit margins. Now, with invention you changed from being Intel to being Walmart. Check what their profit margins are...
Bottomline is still, you produce T2 items at a lower price than your inventing competitors. Yes, invention will cut your profits by a huge margin, but you will be able to compete.
--------------
In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft. |
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Kirth Gerschen
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Posted - 2007.03.29 07:40:00 -
[71]
I can imagine some players are feeling really bad about invention. For instance the people who just bought a BPO and now have a harder time making the money back.
But as people are comparing EVE to real life with patents and a lot of other stuff. The moment you show me a company that have a profit margin like producers have when they had the hulk BPO I will agree to everything you say.
Lets say making a hulk costs 100m and they used to be sold for 600m that means a 500% profit and something like that can only keep going on when there is an artificial barrier for other people to get into the market themselves. Which there was with a limited amount of T2 BPOs. Now there is competition and the prices will go down, but is it really so bad to only make 100% profit?
Kind regards,
Ambris
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Izzy Pol
Fear and Loathing in LoneTrek
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 07:42:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Dravin Dread
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
Wants and needs arent the same thing.
In trying to sound profound Mr Spock, you failed.
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Izzy Pol
Fear and Loathing in LoneTrek
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 07:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Nice personal attack, debate the issue not the person and you may get somewhere. All I see from you is the usual jealous rantings and a lack debating capabilities.
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Alektorophobia
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 07:48:00 -
[74]
To the op:
The lottery they are doing is only redistributing lost BPOs. BPOs that have blown up, expired in a jet can, sat for years in a hangar of an inactive character etc. They are bringing those back.
Invention:
Just does not produce enough copies for anyone to actually put up a production line based on it. You get too few runs on the bpcs.
What it will do. It will reduce the demand, as some corps will start producing parts of their own T2 need for themselves. And in an unforseeable future someone might produce with invention to the general market.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Xzrath
Xpress Delivery Services
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 08:04:00 -
[75]
Originally by: c0rn1
Why should I invest in it if I can make 1bn/day in a complex?
The fact that you are even trying to compare your highsec isk generator to the single most profitable and contested assets in Eve, the capture and ownership of which have been the primary motivation behind many wars between large alliances, shows how weak your argument really is.
Besides the fact that as someone mentioned running complexes and industrial production are not mutually exclusive activities, if you have full-time access to a private 10/10 complex that lets you churn out a bil a day, why are you *****ing about your BPO not making you enough isk?
Even as an (scrubby little T1) industrialist carebear myself, I can see how people like this make pirates hate carebears....  |
Bioinf2005
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 08:06:00 -
[76]
cry me a river
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Chavu
The Shadow Order
Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 09:38:00 -
[77]
You have this all wrong, c0rn1. First of all, as someone who has written many essays and papers your post is not an essay, it is a whine.
The Tech2 BPO system is ridiculous. It is based 100% on luck and that is not a good system (and I know Invention has a large luck factor but it's not 100%) CCP has stated that even Industry has PvP elemnts to it. Winning a lottery is not PvP. Having ZERO competition is not PvP.
The Invention system is one of the greatest things to hit Eve and any tradeskill in a MMORPG. Yes, actually training Industry skills and building stuff and using that in research yields stronger, higher technology items!
Under the old system, you have to mission, rat, pirate, or mine unitl your eyes bleed and buy a T2 BPO or get extremely lucky.
Under the current system, you can get tier 2 items by *gasp* actually using your industrial/science tradeskills.
You should build and invent to get better stuff, that makes sense. Committing yourself to invention is a long term investment, skill wise, time wise, and isk wise.
In GuildWars you used to have to do an insane amount of PvE to be competitive at PvP. This was the #1 complaint and was changed in a few months. You shouldn't be forced to PvE when you want to PvP or be forced to make isk through various means instead of being a builder/inventor.
Player-driven market is good.
BPO LOTTERY IS NOT A PLAYER DRIVEN MARKET. BPOs are magically handed out to people by CCP, that sounds like it's a CCP driven market. To disagree with this is just wrong. Rigs are close to being player-driven because players determine how much time they want to spend salvaging, but ultimately CCP can slam the prices either way by adding a few zeros and technically CCP roughly determines the price of every item in eve.
Tech 2 BPOS were an Iwin button in tech 2 manufacturing, not fun and with microscopic competition. It has been changed and made much more complicated. All of which I approve with.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.03.29 09:55:00 -
[78]
yes, i understand t2 corps/folks/whatever calculated with a 1y roi (or... at least i did)?
however, invention code was first released exactly 4months ago, end november, and we knew about it months earlier. back then the prices were still climbing like 10% per month. so those 1y roi calcs were met way earlier.
basically, if you bought yourself in 8-9 months ago, you really should be ok by now and still have a money printing machine in hand.
if you started after invention was roughly outlined, it's your own fault - but you can still make the best of it with the bpo still in posession. sucks, but there's really noone to blame. the protests were sound and massive enough to not rely on ccp ignoringthe static t2 bpo problem aswell.
we have other larger long term investment options these days: demand for capitals should continue to increase (with up to lvl7 agents offering "capital missions" somewhere in the future), researching a mothership bpo could even prove worthwhile o_O. IPOs can be interesting aswell.
but yeah... while even more bpos were inexplicable; tweaking invention by almost -90% was the ultimate jaw dropper...
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nreisan
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Posted - 2007.03.29 09:58:00 -
[79]
You think your Tech2 market is so hard to make money? Try making money on T1 items which is all new players can make without invention. 5-15% on T1 items that everyone and their dog can make. Way more logistics involved.
You can make items that have better PE/ME so lower cost, unlimited runs
Compared with sinking money in invention everytime to get a -pe/-me BPC copy with like 10 runs on one mod....
Hardly comparable to your gold mine, your just taking a hit in the profits, not lossing out, u can still mine/rat at the same time as make your squillions.
Considering there is no way for a new PLAYER to have a chance to compete with you guys without invention.
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Karunel
Princeps Corp
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.03.29 10:01:00 -
[80]
CCP implemented a bad system for T2 production and now they're paying for it. Invention is a good solution but it is not, IMO, compatible with BPOs.
BPOs should be converted to max run BPCs in the future IMHO.
Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Lena Crews
Minmatar
Universal Sanitation Corporation
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Posted - 2007.03.29 10:30:00 -
[81]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
It is good for eVe in the long run because it enhances new players experience. T2s are the base equipment and no more I win because I am T2 and you are T1. Everyone gets to play for fun.
It does not matter eVe loses one veteran and gains 5 new players. eVe and the majority of the playerbase still win because the more the merrier. It is Massively Multiplayer Online.
eVe +NLINE: T+TAL HELLDEATH
Eve was never based on the more the merrier. It was a game from nerds for nerds. It took is charma from a market close to the r/l market. Having special items you can have. Being special and individual in trading or producing or PvPing.
Eve will come down to a game like any other MMO(RP)G.
-> Grinding.
Grind the belts/rats/missions for cash. 2h in a belt with a hulk is more profitable than a mediocre t2 bpo soon peer week. the t2 bpo is more effort to handle. Plus a hulk you can fly after 2 months.
Ship in the items you need, produce it, skill your character so you can actually produce it, bring it on the market. that take more than 2h a week.
Regards
c0rn1
Ummm... higher t2 prices results in more grinding for the masses, not less. If I have to save up 800M for my t2 fitting instead of 200M... woulddn't I have to grind 4 times as long? Grinding seems to be more of an argument against what you want.
And EVE is based on the more the merrier. Otherwise we'd have multiple shards to keep player numbers down. I bet CCP wants more subscribers.
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cheru
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.29 11:05:00 -
[82]
Edited by: cheru on 29/03/2007 11:06:20
Originally by: Trishtan DeMore
...
Exactly that is the problem. You don't want to invest anything but still have your ships.
We invested 3+ years into a game to get the things we have taken out of our hands within 2 patches.
95% of our BPo are from BUYING and not a result of the R&D agent. We invested several 100 billions which we produced by our own hands with grinding belts/rats/missions to reach that or managing our productions.
And now it's gone?
Just because YOU do not want to put the effort in, we did? And you get it handed freely over?
...
No, the keyword is "reasonable". I want to have to invest some effort to get my ship, be it ratting, mission running, playing the market, setting up a production line, whatever. 3+ years to have enough income to afford the stuff to play with is indeed too much time for a _game_ imho. I can understand that people like you feel betrayed somehow. However like Roemy pointed out - you could see it coming, couldn't you?
Originally by: c0rn1
...
If t2 items were so expensive and whatnot, Why, I ask, happened so much PvP before? How could people afford them? because even with a 1000% margin they were cost-effective.
...
In fact they were not cost-effective. With the old system a t2 fitted HAC would have cost me ~ 300m isk, thats ~ 20 hours ratting/mission running per lost ship. Very few could be arsed to use them on a regular basis under these circumstances.
Originally by: c0rn1
...
They want to logon, fight, don't lose anything and then logoff an hour later again without putting any effort in it.
...
Again, it is not "without putting ANY effort" but "without putting an unreasonable amount of time/effort". Again, I can see where you are coming from and respect for the effort you have obviously put into your bpos, but can't you see that a system that "works" for 1% of the playerbase (after 3 years of investment) isn't really healthy for a game (that is played for 1 year by the average player)?
.................................................
been there
done that |
Lena Crews
Minmatar
Universal Sanitation Corporation
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Posted - 2007.03.29 11:08:00 -
[83]
I tell you what... if you really believe Tech 2 BPO's are so bad right now Corn, I'll trade you invention tools for your T2 BPO's.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.29 11:15:00 -
[84]
Originally by: c0rn1
Example Cap recharger II again:
Daily Production (BPO owner): 30 per day
Inventioneers: Unlimited (they can create an unlimited number of BPC basically by repeating the invention process over and over).
Can you please tell me how to make an unlimited number of copies? Do you have even the SLIGHTEST clue about invention? It appears to me that you don't know a single bit about invention.
You can produce the cap recharger for 250k if you buy the stuff from the market. The inventor has to build the cap recharger also, but since the has always negative ME he must pay a bit more, maybe he has building costs of 300k then.
However YOU have the BPO for free. It costs you nothing to do some runs. The inventor has to pay for EACH SINGLE run. And it is a lot he has to pay. It is 1 mil at least.
So YOU have total costs of 250k. The inventor has total costs (building costs + invention costs) of 1300k. He has more than FIVE TIMES HIGHER COSTS!
And you still complain about your ruined profits?
If your profits are so bad, I am open to take all those crappy blueprints from you.
I hope you get hit hard from the changed t2 situation because exactly those profiteers like you were the ruin to the open market.
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Cipher7
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.29 12:45:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Dravin Dread
The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
T2 BPO's are not "needs" they are wants.
This is a post-apocalyptic sci-fi world of drugs, corporate violence and hypercapitalism.
Don't drag real world socialism into it.
Next we'll be changing pvp because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
It's a competative game, there are winners and losers, don't whine just because you're one of the losers.
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Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.29 13:16:00 -
[86]
Player A playing for 2 years with t2 BPOs = "lots" of money
Player B playing for 2 years without t2 BPOs = "lot" of money
-------------------------------------------------------------------
after everything else canceling out:
"l o t s" minus "l o t" = "s"
"s" = $$$
So here you have it scientifically proven that a player with tech2 BPOs still has more "$$$$" (and the BPOs) than a player who was nerfed by not having a tech2 BPO in the first place after this nerf.
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Fubarski
Caldari
Centauri Project
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Posted - 2007.03.29 13:24:00 -
[87]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong.
You're attempting to rationalize RL economics in a game world that does not support it. Period.
For instance, your so-called "patents" are enforced via game mechanics. There is no way around these. In the actual world we live in, an item that provides such a definitive edge on the market is quickly reverse engineered, and either tweaked enough to get around the patent, or, just reproduced, and to hell with the patents. In that regard, patents can only be enforced ultimately by rule, or threat of force.
On top of that, in the real world, there are checks and balances in place to prevent a monopoly, wherein collaboration between producers (BPO holders) tie the price up in knots. Monopolistic practices doesn't mean one group owns all. It just means an unfair amount of control over a product.
To say that you don't need tech2 for anything is laughable as well. Every single frickin ship setup you look at, that isn't quickly shot down by the player-base... is tech2 (or mostly T2) Sure, you can do anything... but then again, if I do everything perfectly, I can win the World Rally Championship in a stock Toyota. (T1) Just makes it a lot more feasible, and reasonable to buy a modified rally version (T2).
If you want to say "I want a money printing press" that's fine. I like sandbox games, but in that regard, CCP needs to open that avenue up.
You want to produce T2? Fine. I want to flat out research T1 BPO's, using the skills relevant, to improve upon an existing design.
You want a free handout BPO through a lottery system? I want a system wherein a 10mil industry character can actually modify an existing ship setup via the Tech1 Blueprint, and then start edging you out of business as they achieve what T2 does, and beyond.
If you want a sandbox design, that's fine. But don't screw around with it, and look at half measures and lock-ins. It shouldn't work that way. If you want to say the market is competitive, or a "luxury", I want the luxury of knocking you out of business by producing a better product.
I want to be able to add slots to ships, increase the resistances through research, improve speed, handling, and targeting systems, through industrial research and production skills. Gimme that in-game capability, and you can keep your T2 market.
Give mechanic heavily skilled players the ability to parts-bin stuff from ship A, and stuff it with duct-tape and bailing wire, into ship B. Again, it opens the market a bit more.
If players who come into the game have such a high hurdle to reach to "compete" with other players in a PvP game, then the game loses its attractiveness to them.
Anyways, I highly doubt you want a true sandbox economy without game mechanic restrictions on your "patent", so you're really just complaining about a rules-set that shouldn't exist in the first place.
Buy T2 item>reverse engineer>improve/change>produceT2a/b/c is what needs to happen. Not Buy T2>Buy T2>Buy T2>Buy T2. That's not how economies work.
Fubarski
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.03.29 13:59:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Izzy Pol
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Nice personal attack, debate the issue not the person and you may get somewhere. All I see from you is the usual jealous rantings and a lack debating capabilities.
This from someone who said the following just one post up:
Quote:
Wants and needs arent the same thing.
In trying to sound profound Mr Spock, you failed.
You obviously do not know from which you speak.
If you had read my 2 other VERY LONG posts in the first 2 pages of this thread, you would see that not only did I assist in completely shooting down his worthless arguments, but I even provided an alternative option to even the current BPO scheme, which would have nicely balanced BPO's and BPC's both T1 and T2. I put quite a bit of time and thought into my posts.
Obviously I am getting more than a bit tired of c0rn1 and his transparent whining, thusly my third post was worded rather strongly. But at least I bothered to post something more than a one or two line snarky put-down like yours.
If the tenor of your posts is any indication, it would seem that you support c0rn1 and his whining. This would imply that you too are a holder (or are otherwise a beneficiary) of a t2 BPO and are also now upset that the gravy train is over. If I were you, I would simply be happy that I got to keep my BPO.
If it were up to me, you and c0rn1 wouldn't even have your BPO's anymore. You were granted (Yes, granted. Not earned, not invested in, granted.) an impossibly unfair advantage in the EVE marketplace. You still have a HUGE advantage, it's just not impossibly huge anymore. Be glad. You will still be rich, and now have the opportunity to properly out-compete others in the marketplace. Everybody wins, and EVE gets stronger.
I don't see the issue here, unless you and c0rn1 are being totally, completely and absolutely selfish about it, which it certainly seems that you are. In that light, I put to you the same challenge I gave c0rn1:
Shut up or give your BPO's up.
The rest of us are sick of whiny little rich kids.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 15:18:00 -
[89]
To conclude some of the thing I said before, because a few people aren't reading the whole thread and it's dynamics it took on the way here.
Things are:
I said even in my primary topic that I'd have not a problem with regulated invention OR another t2 BPO seeding.
Inventioneers costs are 50% higher than mine as a BPo owner, not 500% as someone before mentioned.
I must compete with EVERYONE else now who can build every item I might have by himself for a margin of 50%.
Example Cap Recharger II again:
150k building cost BPo Owner
225k building cost Inventioneer
I have to pay:
- Freighter and character who can ship the stuff around
- People who sell it on the market
- Sales Fees
- Take the risk my freighter gets blown up including a weekly/monthly production
The inventioneer has to take none of the risk before. He doesn't have to bring anything to the market. He needs a few eutetic cap rechargers, a few datacores and an interface.
Every CEO of a corp, which would've been a potential customer to me can be SELF-SUFFICIENT and doesn't buy anything of me.
That's about it.
Datacores I can take atm 25,000 out of my research agents for my research points. So prices for them are basically non-existant. Interfaces got unlimited use. t1 items are cheap.
To another poster:
As mentioned before is the margin of Microsoft around 20,000% on every product. that's 40x higher than the margin on the hulk. Most small items you buy in r/l have at least a margin of 500-1000% for the producer to be cost-effective.
I cannot compete with an unlimited (every player can use invention and be self sufficient) market 50% above my building price.
50% sounds alot to some ears, but it ONLY would be if you can sell 1000s of items per day. But the eve market is far too small to make it at least a little bit profitable in that manner.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.03.29 15:23:00 -
[90]
Quote:
... You still have a HUGE advantage, it's just not impossibly huge anymore. ...
Quoted for stating the bleedingly obvious for those who havent picked up on it yet.
To put this all into perspective, I recently embarked on an industrial path which sees me making anywhere between 20-100% profit depending on the market stability. Regardless, I'm established to, within a month or two, generate close to a billion a fortnight. From 20-100% profit.
T2 BPO holders are granted a 50% manufacturing cost reduction vs invention without factoring in the ME and PE on these BPC's is inferior, enough to pump the manufacturing costs another 10% or so. Factor in a standard profit margin which *all* manufacturers seek, a T2 BPO holder can still very easily profit 100% on manufacturing costs. So already without factoring in anything like a researched BPO, T2 BPO owners can already produce equal if not greater profit than inventors.
I noticed several mentions about "Stupid inventors want something for nothing, play for one hour, lose nothing, gain everything",, to which I throw the WTF card. Industry is away-from-game income, and there's *nothing* difficult about coming on, buying your manufacturing requirements, setting up the next production run for a week, and leaving,,, so how the heck can a T2 BPO owner require *more effort* than an inventor to produce equipment? Whiny whiny takes chances from high sec gankers for materials, well duh, so do I. I've been targetted, i've been fired at so don't think it's any different *just because you're a bpo owner*.
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