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Rab
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:23:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Miriam Mar
Edited by: Miriam Mar on 28/03/2007 19:21:52
Your patents have now run out. Prepare to compete with the unwashed masses.
Whine, or adapt, up to you.
Of course the patent system as estiblished would allow those with a 20 year patent to know thats what they have at the start, equally it would allow purchasers of patents to know if it had, say, 5 years or 3 weeks left, and allow the buyers to know the run remaining before it 'becomes public'
So, keeping with this patent system, as someone that has purchased for fair isk a blueprint last week to what im sure is a brand new item (no information actually showing how long my original has existed), you can start my 20 years off now thanks :P
- In an infinite universe, everything is definite. - |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:29:00 -
[32]
First of all, T2 is not a luxury item anymore. Its almost become standard on any ship. One of many reasons I left deep space was that I could not live by the "dont fly what you cant afford to loose" rule anymore. It was too costy, and I could not keep the income side higher then the expense side. I left. Turned into a miner. Not really by a choice i made myself, but rather my wallet made for me.
In many ways it was the greed of the producers that made CCP have to take this decision. I have no problem with producers trying to charge as much as they can. Supply and demand and all that. But it simply dont work. The ratio of supply vs player population vs price is too askewed. And that is not good. Because a market is more then supply and demand. Its also about being able to compete. Not neccesary by price, but at least being able to bring a product to the market. Only then does the market work.
Originally by: Eldo Davip
PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT.
WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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Philiso Badagn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:38:00 -
[33]
nice essay
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Abye
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:51:00 -
[34]
Meh Corn1, go play a few month without your own T2 industry backing you up and then come again. And speaking about pure ISK, a healthy T1 industry can supply you with ISK, too. But buying everything in empire sucks.
The lead designers already stated that issuing a limited amount of BPOs was a mistake and they are trying to correct it with invention getting cheaper and cheaper.
Your most ridiculous assumption was about the second release of BPOs. Hell, playerbase quadrupled, you plainly HAD to increase the BPO amount or the prices would explode on wanted items.
Quote:
I never complained when I was a newcomer in this game because there were long-term goals waiting for me to achieve. I could PvP with t1 gear as well as I can now with t2 gear.
Sure, try to outsnipe the enemy fleet without tech2 ammo 
___
Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected]) |
Jaxxon Voers
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:03:00 -
[35]
has anyone considered that this entire change could open the door for T3 items? instead of crying, maybe a Darwinistic approach would be more practical? Adapt or die, amoebas.
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Exiled One
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:10:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Exiled One on 28/03/2007 21:07:19
As quite a few of the people here have guessed it, c0rn1 you are an idiot. Hint: t3.
edit: Defining t2 as luxury - priceless, Darwin at it's best.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Abye
Meh Corn1, go play a few month without your own T2 industry backing you up and then come again. And speaking about pure ISK, a healthy T1 industry can supply you with ISK, too. But buying everything in empire sucks.
The lead designers already stated that issuing a limited amount of BPOs was a mistake and they are trying to correct it with invention getting cheaper and cheaper.
Your most ridiculous assumption was about the second release of BPOs. Hell, playerbase quadrupled, you plainly HAD to increase the BPO amount or the prices would explode on wanted items.
Quote:
I never complained when I was a newcomer in this game because there were long-term goals waiting for me to achieve. I could PvP with t1 gear as well as I can now with t2 gear.
Sure, try to outsnipe the enemy fleet without tech2 ammo
1stly, After 2 years of playing I came into the situation that I have a corp backing me up with t2 market cash. Before that, I worked hard to have my t2 fitted Battleships. Before I joined the corp I am in now, I had 4 tempests, a hac, several cruiser and interceptors fully fitted with t2 items only due to ratting.
2ndly, You do not have to fight on the opponents' terms. If you do that, even t2 ships won't help ya. Fight on your terms and things are perfect. The most fear for a t2 sniper is not a t2 sniper. it's a well placed covert ops and a couple interceptors :)
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:14:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Exiled One
Edited by: Exiled One on 28/03/2007 21:07:19
As quite a few of the people here have guessed it, c0rn1 you are an idiot. Hint: t3.
edit: Defining t2 as luxury - priceless, Darwin at it's best.
thank you for your politeness.
Just a hint: Read and understand!
- Several billions were invested into t2 BPO as a long-term investment.
- 1 of the 2 options were enough to supply the demand. not invention and a t2 bpo seeding at the same time.
=> check the market how it reacts on one thing. then look if you have to do more adjusting.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Abye
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: c0rn1
2ndly, You do not have to fight on the opponents' terms. If you do that, even t2 ships won't help ya. Fight on your terms and things are perfect. The most fear for a t2 sniper is not a t2 sniper. it's a well placed covert ops and a couple interceptors :)
Since you dodge some of my arguments I dodge yours: Look, dictors and Covert Ops are tech2 ships !
___
Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected]) |
Exiled One
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Exiled One
Edited by: Exiled One on 28/03/2007 21:07:19
As quite a few of the people here have guessed it, c0rn1 you are an idiot. Hint: t3.
edit: Defining t2 as luxury - priceless, Darwin at it's best.
thank you for your politeness.
Just a hint: Read and understand!
- Several billions were invested into t2 BPO as a long-term investment.
- 1 of the 2 options were enough to supply the demand. not invention and a t2 bpo seeding at the same time.
=> check the market how it reacts on one thing. then look if you have to do more adjusting.
Don't cry I have a plaster [:: [ ] ::]. Life's a waste of time or so your sig states, so are you, don't you agree? Adapt or die, emo boy.
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All Clear
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:17:00 -
[41]
reserved
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:18:00 -
[42]
Having the T2 market dependent on a limited number of manually seeded T2 BPO's had a number of serious flaws.
1. The amount of T2 items on the market did not reflect the number of players.
2. Several items had all/most T2 BPO's controlled by cartels, enabling them to earn huge amounts of money to further expand their monopoly.
3. New players could not get a foothold in the T2 market at all.
4. etc.
Invention is a decent compromise which will fix most of these problems, while still keeping T2 BPO's a valuable item to have. You'll not earn the obscene amounts of cash you have until now, but the T2 BPO owner will still be able to produce T2 items cheaper and easier than inventors.
General advice: Stop whining! |
gfldex
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:27:00 -
[43]
Originally by: c0rn1
I question all the people in here who kept complaining for months about t2 and stuff and forced CCP into doing that:
What did you gain? Wasn't it a bit short-sighted to saw at the own branch you're standing on?
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
To say it with Granny Watherwax: "Things are not important, people are.".
--
There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of sayed games. That never stopped smart game designers from making good games.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:27:00 -
[44]
T2 bpo's are still good investments. Actually they are excellent investments. And with the current invention there is no way that a bpo hold will suffer real losses, that is that he has to sell stuff below production costs. The only dangerous thing for a t2 bpo holder is another t2 bpo of the same item competing with him.
T2 went from luxury good to a semi-mass product. The now lowered profit margain (maybe 400% instead of 2000%) is compensated with the higher turnover, thus resulting in an even total profit.
There is still good profit in the T2 market, especially in the supply chain stuff!
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Auron Shadowbane
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:35:00 -
[45]
stop whining.
either you have had enough time to make MEGATONS of ISK with your Hulk bpos
OR
you just got lucky on a t2 bpo which is still a few mill out of nothing
OR
you just bought tons of t2 bpos for the low-panic-prices and are trying to stop them from devaluating.
in no case you are the "poor guy", just greedy.
BPOs will ALLWAYS be BETTER than invention cause you have positive me&pe whitout any further costs.
if an inventor makes 50mil on a hulk you still make 70mil.
dont like your bpos? sell em!
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Olixia Castitatis
Gallente
Svefn-G-Englar
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:41:00 -
[46]
You got hit square in the crotch with the nerf bat.
It happens; get over it.
(Hey look ma' imma usin' semicolons!!1)
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<Sig goes here> |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Requiem of Hades
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Posted - 2007.03.28 21:48:00 -
[47]
It is good for eVe in the long run because it enhances new players experience. T2s are the base equipment and no more I win because I am T2 and you are T1. Everyone gets to play for fun.
It does not matter eVe loses one veteran and gains 5 new players. eVe and the majority of the playerbase still win because the more the merrier. It is Massively Multiplayer Online.
eVe +NLINE: T+TAL HELLDEATH
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.28 23:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
I don't want to invest in anything. I want to spend my ISK on ships and modules that I will most likely lose in combat. And now that I don't have to pay over inflated prices for t2 modules I can buy more of them. And I am happier. And so less likely to cancel my subscription. So, in my case, CCP did the right thing with invention.
--
The Green Banana Corporation is Recruiting
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 01:21:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
It is good for eVe in the long run because it enhances new players experience. T2s are the base equipment and no more I win because I am T2 and you are T1. Everyone gets to play for fun.
It does not matter eVe loses one veteran and gains 5 new players. eVe and the majority of the playerbase still win because the more the merrier. It is Massively Multiplayer Online.
eVe +NLINE: T+TAL HELLDEATH
Eve was never based on the more the merrier. It was a game from nerds for nerds. It took is charma from a market close to the r/l market. Having special items you can have. Being special and individual in trading or producing or PvPing.
Eve will come down to a game like any other MMO(RP)G.
-> Grinding.
Grind the belts/rats/missions for cash. 2h in a belt with a hulk is more profitable than a mediocre t2 bpo soon peer week. the t2 bpo is more effort to handle. Plus a hulk you can fly after 2 months.
Ship in the items you need, produce it, skill your character so you can actually produce it, bring it on the market. that take more than 2h a week.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Trishtan DeMore
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.03.29 01:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
I don't want to invest in anything. I want to spend my ISK on ships and modules that I will most likely lose in combat. And now that I don't have to pay over inflated prices for t2 modules I can buy more of them. And I am happier. And so less likely to cancel my subscription. So, in my case, CCP did the right thing with invention.
Exactly that is the problem. You don't want to invest anything but still have your ships.
We invested 3+ years into a game to get the things we have taken out of our hands within 2 patches.
95% of our BPo are from BUYING and not a result of the R&D agent. We invested several 100 billions which we produced by our own hands with grinding belts/rats/missions to reach that or managing our productions.
And now it's gone?
Just because YOU do not want to put the effort in, we did? And you get it handed freely over?
Thank you
c0rn1
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 01:25:00 -
[51]
wrong char above
sorry, that's me.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.03.29 01:51:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Trishtan DeMore
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: c0rn1
Where do you now want to invest your precious ISK into to have a long-term status of wealth?
I don't want to invest in anything. I want to spend my ISK on ships and modules that I will most likely lose in combat. And now that I don't have to pay over inflated prices for t2 modules I can buy more of them. And I am happier. And so less likely to cancel my subscription. So, in my case, CCP did the right thing with invention.
Exactly that is the problem. You don't want to invest anything but still have your ships.
We invested 3+ years into a game to get the things we have taken out of our hands within 2 patches.
95% of our BPo are from BUYING and not a result of the R&D agent. We invested several 100 billions which we produced by our own hands with grinding belts/rats/missions to reach that or managing our productions.
And now it's gone?
Just because YOU do not want to put the effort in, we did? And you get it handed freely over?
Thank you
c0rn1
Pros:
1)Tech2 BPOS aren't worthless, they just don't accumulate wealth at insane levels anymore.(not all of them did btw)
2)Tech2 BPOs are still superior to invention copies
3)Newer players are so far behind that they would have to grind 10 times harder than you unless they were lucky and "won" a bpo in the lottery.
4)Invention allows anyone willing to put in the work and effort to be totally self sufficient.
5)Now there is market competition, pvp in a way. Unless you had a tech 2 bpo there was no way to compete against a someone who had a tech 2 bpo(in the market). Now tech2 bpos still have the advantage but they have competition and cant pull 1000% profit margins out of their a$%$ anymore.
6)Invention isn't a 1 way street. Now ship builders with tech 2 bpos can start putting out fully equipped models completely using internal manufacturing. Nothing stops existing tech2 owners from delving into invention also.
7)I'm sure there will be corps that spring up who specialize in invention. If you want long term investment opportunities maybe investing into startup corps is the answer.
Cons:
1)YOU dont make as much money anymore.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.03.29 02:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 29/03/2007 02:11:29
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 29/03/2007 02:07:52
I make 4 times the manufacturing cost on my T2 items because people still pay that much for them. Truth is *more* than half that manufacturing cost is datacores and decryptors, on top of the fact that they dont always work.
So in fact T2 BPO owners make about 10 times as much on what they put in.
And what someone said is right, T2 BPO's were a luxury for the few who got far, and in the face of invention they are still a luxury as they can sell at costs below what inventors can afford even with 100% success rate and still make about 200% profit on their investment/manufacturing costs.
With the growing population, this gives the T2 BPO owners a really unfair advantage, as with each new player/purchaser, they make exponentially more profit, so for a growing audience the system is very flawed. So invention has drastically gimped the grip of T2 owners on the market. That said, they still have an incredibly large advantage.
On a flipside, (shameless self promotion) I'm in a startup corp in invention and T2 manufacturing, with a history of mission running. With a bit of creativity and capital, i'm now close to obtaining a billion every two or so weeks (at present estimates, I earn about 45 mil a day). I'm open to doing manufacturing orders for T2 components on request :),,,, *thinks about posting this service somewhere*
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 02:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Death Merchant
Pros:
1)Tech2 BPOS aren't worthless, they just don't accumulate wealth at insane levels anymore.(not all of them did btw)
2)Tech2 BPOs are still superior to invention copies
3)Newer players are so far behind that they would have to grind 10 times harder than you unless they were lucky and "won" a bpo in the lottery.
4)Invention allows anyone willing to put in the work and effort to be totally self sufficient.
5)Now there is market competition, pvp in a way. Unless you had a tech 2 bpo there was no way to compete against a someone who had a tech 2 bpo(in the market). Now tech2 bpos still have the advantage but they have competition and cant pull 1000% profit margins out of their a$%$ anymore.
6)Invention isn't a 1 way street. Now ship builders with tech 2 bpos can start putting out fully equipped models completely using internal manufacturing. Nothing stops existing tech2 owners from delving into invention also.
7)I'm sure there will be corps that spring up who specialize in invention. If you want long term investment opportunities maybe investing into startup corps is the answer.
Cons:
1)YOU dont make as much money anymore.
1) it wasn't even slightly an insane level at all. The Cap recharger II BPo made 300M/day at it's best time. A 10/10 complex does 1bn/day at least in overseer PLUS the items you get out of them. Guess why RA holds it's hands onto the plexes in all regions even those of GOON/TCF and KOS.
2) if you mass inventions, it's no problem for you to have a line where you invent -> build (@ ME -8 you got ~ 12.5% higher build price than a t2 bpo owner) -> sell at the same time. with boosting inventions and removing the t2 lottery the datacore prices will fall down to ridiculously low prices. Once you got the interface, it will not disappear anymore.
3) when I started 3 years ago I had to grind as well for 2 years to have my ships I wanted. And I didn't have a hulk or a covetor to mine.
4) I said that inventing would've been more than enough to fill the market and have the inventioneers a proper margin on their items. With the simultaneous seeding of t2 BPo AND the boost of invention again, the prices will fall down to a margin of 20-30% which is by far not enough to produce t2 items profitable. Mining or missioning is far more efficient.
5) No, the market competition is over because the prices are not worth a competition at all. it will be always close to the building price which is not efficient at all. you'll do the same cash with t1 bpo as with t2 bpo. Communism market ftl. Or people will just build the items for themselves to be self-sufficient.
6) Can I place fully equipped t2 ships on the market? If not, I think that is not needed in any way.
7) I cannot invest into them because they won't do any profit anymore. So why should I put any ISK or effort into it. it doesn't make sense at all.
Cons:
1) All people who invested into such BPO are screwed over by CCP. Billions wasted into dust and you get nothing from it anymore. Worthless blue items sitting in your hangar you once trusted in CCP they would keep an eye on holding the market stable and would NOT be trying to degenerate eve into a grinding game.
What will happen?
Old-Timers will look if other games are available. The only special things are now dropped items of Officers or complexes.
Comparing to any other MMO(RP)G this is what exactly is the condition there. The special things you get by grinding rats and look for an item that drops. The market will be absolutely communistic and won't be able to supply a group of people anymore.
Why should I invest in it if I can make 1bn/day in a complex?
If t2 items were so expensive and whatnot, Why, I ask, happened so much PvP before? How could people afford them? because even with a 1000% margin they were cost-effective.
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.03.29 02:41:00 -
[55]
Originally by: c0rn1
1) it wasn't even slightly an insane level at all. The Cap recharger II BPo made 300M/day at it's best time. A 10/10 complex does 1bn/day at least in overseer PLUS the items you get out of them. Guess why RA holds it's hands onto the plexes in all regions even those of GOON/TCF and KOS.
2) if you mass inventions, it's no problem for you to have a line where you invent -> build (@ ME -8 you got ~ 12.5% higher build price than a t2 bpo owner) -> sell at the same time. with boosting inventions and removing the t2 lottery the datacore prices will fall down to ridiculously low prices. Once you got the interface, it will not disappear anymore.
4) I said that inventing would've been more than enough to fill the market and have the inventioneers a proper margin on their items. With the simultaneous seeding of t2 BPo AND the boost of invention again, the prices will fall down to a margin of 20-30% which is by far not enough to produce t2 items profitable. Mining or missioning is far more efficient.
Cons:
1)...
Old-Timers will look if other games are available. The only special things are now dropped items of Officers or complexes.
Comparing to any other MMO(RP)G this is what exactly is the condition there. The special things you get by grinding rats and look for an item that drops. The market will be absolutely communistic and won't be able to supply a group of people anymore.
Why should I invest in it if I can make 1bn/day in a complex?
If t2 items were so expensive and whatnot, Why, I ask, happened so much PvP before? How could people afford them? because even with a 1000% margin they were cost-effective.
Sorry? I think you countered yourself there.
Why do big alliances hold those? *because* they are holding low sec turf. A person manufacturing T2 equipment in high sec has a lot less risk and *deserves* a lot less reward. And if you choose to manuf it in low sec? thats your own silly fault for making a sublime task ridiculously more difficult.
Point 2 of yours, 12.5% manufacturing is complete trollop. It's more like 50% of the manufacturing costs, which is a huge step up from the prices that T2 bpo owners could set.
Its doing the same old story of getting people to venture more into the vast excitement of 0.0. As for the 1000% profit margin still being cost effective? Because the PvP community purchases the mods, and the PvP community holds the 1 bil per day complexes.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 02:45:00 -
[56]
And a further question, which would be nice to have an official answer here, because that's not only a concern of me as of my whole corp.
What were you thinking by crushing the market in that way? Is it you intention to move eve into a grinding game for the mass market?
When I started to play Eve I read dev blogs that Eve would've been made out of the old Elite spirit which had a massive non-communistic market. It was a game made from "Elite" (that was a game on the C64 in the 80s with vector graphics) nerds for players of that kind. The average age in eve was once very high due to the fact that alot old "Elite" players joined it. You had alot of people which enjoyed exactly the fact in long-term investments and a massive UNFAIR market with corners where you could make good cash, etc..
This is for example what me and a huge part of the corp here brought them into eve. It's not the PvP battles with a ship. It was the battle to reach the goals and have something worthy in your hands.
I mean, please take a look at the things going on right now and the crush it has for all those old-timers which you might consider worthless now because you explored the mass market. But these old-timers spend their cash for 4 years into eve to reach a status they have now. Without them the servers and your dream job wouldn't have been paid.
(dream job because I read in another devblog that you loved the fact that people are supporting your ideas and dreams that much)
Eve really is degenerating into a mass market game with mass products in the market for almost fixed low prices and grindable EPIC items for people who wants Eve to be like WoW.
They want to logon, fight, don't lose anything and then logoff an hour later again without putting any effort in it.
I'd like to have an honest answer of you, why you actually did that? And if you go on like that?
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Clair Bear
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Posted - 2007.03.29 03:14:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Clair Bear on 29/03/2007 03:13:15
Edited by: Clair Bear on 29/03/2007 03:12:31
Originally by: c0rn1
1) it wasn't even slightly an insane level at all. The Cap recharger II BPo made 300M/day at it's best time. A 10/10 complex does 1bn/day at least in overseer PLUS the items you get out of them. Guess why RA holds it's hands onto the plexes in all regions even those of GOON/TCF and KOS.
Complex territory can be taken away. Your BPO can not (except by introduction of mechanisms like invention).
I'd be fine without invention if there was some way for me to 1. gain the BPO I want or 2. take away your BPO through some PvP action. Since neither of those options are available, I'm fine with invention.
Also, farming a complex is an active activity. You have to be online and doing stuff to produce, meaning you can't do another active activity like ratting, mission running or gate camping. Or sleeping.
T2 bpo production is a passive activity which stacks with any other passive and active activities you perform.
Quote:
2) if you mass inventions, it's no problem for you to have a line where you invent -> build (@ ME -8 you got ~ 12.5% higher build price than a t2 bpo owner) -> sell at the same time. with boosting inventions and removing the t2 lottery the datacore prices will fall down to ridiculously low prices. Once you got the interface, it will not disappear anymore.
Another BS statement any industrialist will call you on. Your BPO can be researched, for both time (worthless) and materials ($). Even if datacores were free the inventor still has to perform more steps (shopping for them, ferrying them around) and spend more time (using invention slots) to cough up their BPC. Magnify this timesink because invention fails often. And guess what, you still have a 20% materials advantage. Since it's such a giant pain to do research, we can assume nobody will bother for less than a 30% profit margin. So you've got a 50% profit margin to play with in a typical case. It's not a 1000% ISK press, but still great!
Quote:
3) when I started 3 years ago I had to grind as well for 2 years to have my ships I wanted. And I didn't have a hulk or a covetor to mine.
And back then a cruiser was something to shoot for. Times change. BSes are the new frigates, and supercapship blobfare is the norm. I'm not sure what your point is.
Quote:
5) No, the market competition is over because the prices are not worth a competition at all. it will be always close to the building price which is not efficient at all. you'll do the same cash with t1 bpo as with t2 bpo. Communism market ftl. Or people will just build the items for themselves to be self-sufficient.
In this game you can't do EVERYTHING. There are opportunity costs for all activities. Self sufficiency means you spend all your time in logistics, not pewpewing. And just because an activity doesn't pull in half a billion a day doesn't mean someone else won't do it for 100 million/day.
Quote:
Cons:
1) All people who invested into such BPO are screwed over by CCP. Billions wasted into dust and you get nothing from it anymore. Worthless blue items sitting in your hangar you once trusted in CCP they would keep an eye on holding the market stable and would NOT be trying to degenerate eve into a grinding game.
Lots of people with t2 goods (hulks, e.g.) also got hit by this as the items devaule. You had plenty of warning, invention's been with us for a long time, it's only natural it gets fixed.
Quote:
What will happen?
Old-Timers will look if other games are available. The only special things are now dropped items of Officers or complexes.
Comparing to any other MMO(RP)G this is what exactly is the condition there. The special things you get by grinding rats and look for an item that drops. The market will be absolutely communistic and won't be able to supply a group of people anymore.
Can I have their stuff?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
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Posted - 2007.03.29 03:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Sorry? I think you countered yourself there.
Why do big alliances hold those? *because* they are holding low sec turf. A person manufacturing T2 equipment in high sec has a lot less risk and *deserves* a lot less reward. And if you choose to manuf it in low sec? thats your own silly fault for making a sublime task ridiculously more difficult.
Point 2 of yours, 12.5% manufacturing is complete trollop. It's more like 50% of the manufacturing costs, which is a huge step up from the prices that T2 bpo owners could set.
Its doing the same old story of getting people to venture more into the vast excitement of 0.0. As for the 1000% profit margin still being cost effective? Because the PvP community purchases the mods, and the PvP community holds the 1 bil per day complexes.
Ok, I will make some examples for you:
Cap Recharger II (since I had it before):
Building price with BPo: 150k
Building price with Invention: 225k
400% profit on it:
-> 1M sales price
Revenue per day: 30 items -> 30M
Building cost: 4.5M
Building cost invention: 6.75M
BPO owner: 25.5M/day
Inventioneer: 23.25M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Difference: 2.25M/day
1h ratting in a belt in 0.0: 30M
Vagabond:
Building price with BPo: 30M
Building price inventioneer: around 6M if you take failed inventions into account
Sales cost: 400% -> 120M
Revenue per day: 1 (if you really got a high PE going)
BPo Owner: 90M
Inventioneer: 60M
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Difference: 30M/day
1h ratting in a belt in 0.0: 30M
1h mining in a belt in 0.0
What do we see here.
-> The prices were not that ridiculous to work profitable with them. A little adjustment to half the price would've been good enough to not destroy the worth of t2 BPO as long-term investment.
-> The prices for modules are not worth producing anymore at all.
-> Ship BPo owners have a little advantage but it'd be not worth investing any cash into t2 BPo at all as long-term investment.
Why did t2 prices skyrocket before? Because the demand was so high. Invention OR a continous t2 bpo seeding (like 1 of every item per 2 months would've solved the growing user number and with it the demand completely).
There was no need to make such drastic steps at all. People could afford it before and the continous seeding or the limited number of datacores handed out by the R&D agent would've been more than enough to satisfy the demand. A slow increasing of the datacores to check the impact would've been good.
At the moment I can get 2500 datacores out of my research agents for my research points. So datacore prices are basically non-existant. Interfaces I just have to buy or find once for unlimited use. All t1 items are cheaply produced.
Where do I find the fact that T2 BPO are any investment at all?
Regards
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Clair Bear
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Posted - 2007.03.29 03:31:00 -
[59]
Originally by: c0rn1
Ok, I will make some examples for you:
Cap Recharger II (since I had it before):
Building price with BPo: 150k
Building price with Invention: 225k
400% profit on it:
-> 1M sales price
Revenue per day: 30 items -> 30M
Building cost: 4.5M
Building cost invention: 6.75M
BPO owner: 25.5M/day
Inventioneer: 23.25M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends + BPO: 275M/day. Subtract time from 10/10 farming for invention overhead for a bigger differnece. Call it 243M/day for invention + 10/10 complex running. Having a BPO does not prohibit me from missioning, ratting, pewpewing or doing anything else last I checked.
Quote:
-> The prices for modules are not worth producing anymore at all.
For YOU. It's not worth your time (or mine) to shoot veldspar in an Ibis or run level 1 missions either. Heck, there's lots of things that aren't worth doing for you and even me.
Quote:
-> Ship BPo owners have a little advantage but it'd be not worth investing any cash into t2 BPo at all as long-term investment.
I call your bluff. I'm willing to buy your hulk BPO for 1B isk. Ridiculous? Yup, but it's an investment of 'any' cash. And most people would agree 1B qualifies as an investment.
I'm going to guestimate a hulk bpo will be worth about 50M * 356 or 18,250,000,000 ISK by the time datacores and interfaces are free. 18 billion investment for an 18 billion payout over a year. You may not find that worth investing in, but I would bet many people will.
Quote:
Why did t2 prices skyrocket before? Because the demand was so high. Invention OR a continous t2 bpo seeding (like 1 of every item per 2 months would've solved the growing user number and with it the demand completely).
It didn't, and would not have. Everyone *BUT* the owners of a few ISK printing presses saw that.
Quote:
There was no need to make such drastic steps at all. People could afford it before and the continous seeding or the limited number of datacores handed out by the R&D agent would've been more than enough to satisfy the demand. A slow increasing of the datacores to check the impact would've been good.
At the moment I can get 2500 datacores out of my research agents for my research points. So datacore prices are basically non-existant. Interfaces I just have to buy or find once for unlimited use. All t1 items are cheaply produced.
So what you're saying is now you have to compete with others rather than luck out and figure out how to move 2500 datacores to realize a few billion in profit? This seems like a normal part of eve operations.
Quote:
Where do I find the fact that T2 BPO are any investment at all?
I'm willing to invest in your BPO, as I said above. You took a giant hit, as have hoarders of zydrine and owners of current t2 inventory. Things happen. Adapt, or an I have your stuff?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
S.E.R.A
|
Posted - 2007.03.29 03:38:00 -
[60]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 29/03/2007 03:40:51
Originally by: Clair Bear
Originally by: c0rn1
Ok, I will make some examples for you:
Cap Recharger II (since I had it before):
Building price with BPo: 150k
Building price with Invention: 225k
400% profit on it:
-> 1M sales price
Revenue per day: 30 items -> 30M
Building cost: 4.5M
Building cost invention: 6.75M
BPO owner: 25.5M/day
Inventioneer: 23.25M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends: 250M/day
Making a 10/10 complex with 3 friends + BPO: 275M/day. Subtract time from 10/10 farming for invention overhead for a bigger differnece. Call it 243M/day for invention + 10/10 complex running. Having a BPO does not prohibit me from missioning, ratting, pewpewing or doing anything else last I checked.
Quote:
-> The prices for modules are not worth producing anymore at all.
For YOU. It's not worth your time (or mine) to shoot veldspar in an Ibis or run level 1 missions either. Heck, there's lots of things that aren't worth doing for you and even me.
Quote:
-> Ship BPo owners have a little advantage but it'd be not worth investing any cash into t2 BPo at all as long-term investment.
I call your bluff. I'm willing to buy your hulk BPO for 1B isk. Ridiculous? Yup, but it's an investment of 'any' cash. And most people would agree 1B qualifies as an investment.
I'm going to guestimate a hulk bpo will be worth about 50M * 356 or 18,250,000,000 ISK by the time datacores and interfaces are free. 18 billion investment for an 18 billion payout over a year. You may not find that worth investing in, but I would bet many people will.
Quote:
Why did t2 prices skyrocket before? Because the demand was so high. Invention OR a continous t2 bpo seeding (like 1 of every item per 2 months would've solved the growing user number and with it the demand completely).
It didn't, and would not have. Everyone *BUT* the owners of a few ISK printing presses saw that.
Quote:
There was no need to make such drastic steps at all. People could afford it before and the continous seeding or the limited number of datacores handed out by the R&D agent would've been more than enough to satisfy the demand. A slow increasing of the datacores to check the impact would've been good.
At the moment I can get 2500 datacores out of my research agents for my research points. So datacore prices are basically non-existant. Interfaces I just have to buy or find once for unlimited use. All t1 items are cheaply produced.
So what you're saying is now you have to compete with others rather than luck out and figure out how to move 2500 datacores to realize a few billion in profit? This seems like a normal part of eve operations.
Quote:
Where do I find the fact that T2 BPO are any investment at all?
I'm willing to invest in your BPO, as I said above. You took a giant hit, as have hoarders of zydrine and owners of current t2 inventory. Things happen. Adapt, or an I have your stuff?
You forgot a fine point in all this. this ONLY works when you are able to sell your FULL production.
And how could I sell my full production if everybody as soon as the price has a 50% margin invents them himself?
If I'd had a hulk BPo I'd sell it to you in a few month for that billion. And I'd look at you laughing when you sit on a monthly production (invested capital into the covetors).
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
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