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Change to the horrible "Dual Rails"

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Snikkt Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Snikkt on 28/03/2007 21:22:20 Edited by: Snikkt on 28/03/2007 21:20:33 As of now, the 150mm, and 250mm Dual Railguns are pretty much useless. Compared to their smaller cousins, they have terrible tracking, about the same range, and a TINY damage mod. It is to the point where the small rails outdamage the medium duals. Anyways, my suggestion is to make 150mm Dual rails act more like a frigate defense battery. They would have about the same range, slightly less tracking, same damage mod, use small charges, halved re-fire rate (maybe only a 1/4 reduction), but keep the higher sig resolution. They would count as Medium rails, however, for bonus purposes. Same goes for the 250mm duals. They would use medium charges, and be based off of the 250mm rails. Maybe there could even be a quad 150mm railgun, as a Large turret. My reason for wanting these changes, is I think it's silly that battleships have little to no counters against smaller ships, or even gangs of small ships. Honestly, I think 2-4 frigs should never be able to take down a properly fitted battleship. It would be a way for Battleships to defend themselves from frigates, and even against cruisers, to an extent. If you think about it, it also makes sense from a RP point of view too. I'm not looking to make Battleships the end all-be all ship in the game, but they've been pushed out of the spotlight as the big ships they're ment to be. They're so easily ganged up on and killed, it's kinda silly. For anyone who says to just fit the 150mm, or 250mm rails themselves, why do that? They're obviously made for smaller ships, they look silly ON the battleship, they don't get any of the battleships gun bonuses, and they lack a punch that is required to bring down those frigs in a timely fashion. All guns have 3 variations. Short, medium, and long, to be blunt. Blasters get the 3 well known, and well used flavors. Electron, Ion, and Neutron. I'm no Minmatar, but I'm fairly sure all 3 types of AC get used a to a decent degree. Why should rails just have to stick with 2? Suggestions, comments, tell me how much of a noob I am, all welcome. ------------------- My opinions (ie, all of my posting here) are not my corporations. Nor should it be taken as such.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:11:00 - [2] Edited by: slothe on 28/03/2007 21:20:24 all they need to make them worthwhile is the tracking of the smaller guns to work. but they dont, so they suck.
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:15:00 - [3] I think that's a great idea. Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2007.03.28 22:19:00 - [4] 10/10. I like it. With big ships having a bit more defense against small ships, we might see: - More people choosing those smaller guns rather than NOS - Lower SP gun battleships as support platforms - More balance between guns and missiles per player SP (where right now, a low SP char in a gunship is useless, wheras a low SP char in a missile ship can still be effective... this might help even things up a bit) - - - Passive shield tank is the new WCS! Originally by: nickycakes so you're saying that when you don't get spanked by bob it's big news
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2007.03.28 22:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Snikkt Edited by: Snikkt on 28/03/2007 21:22:20 Edited by: Snikkt on 28/03/2007 21:20:33 As of now, the 150mm, and 250mm Dual Railguns are pretty much useless. Compared to their smaller cousins, they have terrible tracking, about the same range, and a TINY damage mod. It is to the point where the small rails outdamage the medium duals. Did you factor in the damage bonus of the ship? It works for the duals, not for their smaller, single gun counterparts.
Lamias	Posted - 2007.03.28 22:46:00 - [6] Great idea!!! I would only be worried about the effects on the interceptors. I would be scared of quad-150mm being unbalanced.....but really it would just be specialized. Seems fair and I bet in a real life EVE universe everything you mentioned would exsist. Final thoughts: would work if time was spent balancing them in development =) I like it.
Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.28 23:41:00 - [7] at least people would have some frig defense, other than nos. and yeah i like the idea. in fact i was thinking hte same for a long time. but i didnt bother posting... cause i didnt believe in it ever happening. Only you can save mmorpgs - Stop crying for nerfs today!
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.28 23:59:00 - [8] Personally, I would like to see point defense weaponry added to the game. These modules would take a highslot, and have insane tracking/missile speed and explosion velocity. The role of these modules would be to defend against smaller ships and do it well; as such, the tracking/explosion velocity should be such that the weapons can track and hit an orbiting interceptor. They would come in both medium (to be fit on cruisers to defend against frigates) and large (for battleships to defend against frigates and cruisers) size classes, and have fittings to match (say 50 MW grid usage for medium point-defense weaponry and 500 for large). Once this is implemented, the primary argument for not nerfing nos (larger ships will be unable to kill--or even run away from--frigates) will have been negated, and nosferatu can finally be put in their place. Anyway, that was another of my random ideas. Flame away. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
jizzmonkey	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:03:00 - [9] arties get 2 types, 1200mm (useless anyways) and 1400m, 720 and 650mms. its the way it is...and med arties arnt exactly incredible are they?
Snikkt Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Snikkt Edited by: Snikkt on 28/03/2007 21:22:20 Edited by: Snikkt on 28/03/2007 21:20:33 As of now, the 150mm, and 250mm Dual Railguns are pretty much useless. Compared to their smaller cousins, they have terrible tracking, about the same range, and a TINY damage mod. It is to the point where the small rails outdamage the medium duals. Did you factor in the damage bonus of the ship? It works for the duals, not for their smaller, single gun counterparts. I did Factor in the bonuses. Dual rails currently have such small damage bonuses, that a 15-20% modifier (Not everyone has Racial Cruiser/BS at V) Added is a very small extra amount of damage. The smaller ones still outdamage. Originally by: Lamias Great idea!!! I would only be worried about the effects on the interceptors. I would be scared of quad-150mm being unbalanced.....but really it would just be specialized. Seems fair and I bet in a real life EVE universe everything you mentioned would exsist. Final thoughts: would work if time was spent balancing them in development =) I like it. Thank you very much. The Quad 150mm's would probably have slightly lower tracking then the Dual 150mm's, but they still be capable of hitting frigates. You must remember also, that the sig resolution on the Quads would be high, while interceptors are famous for tiny sig size. That'd make them pretty safe from those guns, allowing them to do their job, still, but not making them overpowered. To everyone else who responded, thanks for the feedback, and support! ------------------- My opinions (ie, all of my posting here) are not my corporations. Nor should it be taken as such.
lyrenna Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:25:00 - [11] a realy brillant idea, i want a pair of quad battery on my raven so i dont need to pump up drone t2 skills for proper mission running.
Gerard Deneth	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:29:00 - [12] /signed and seconded! I'd like to see this idea of equipping warships with improved secondary batteries that can take out smaller boats (but not as efficiently as other smaller boats) as this offers great paralell to RL naval design. And means that if you're motoring along in a Rohk or... well, some other non caldari battleship, you can deal with the occasional frigate without having to depend on drones. Only suggestion would be to have them use the same ammo type as the other mounts, to keep things simple and straightforward (much like how the dual 150's use medium ammo).
Aurael Drakewing Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:34:00 - [13] Edited by: Aurael Drakewing on 29/03/2007 00:33:31 I've been thinking about an idea very similar to this for awhile (basically allowing you to fit multiple smaller-sized weapons in a single larger-sized high point). One of the many issues is that if you give them decent tracking, then ships with a tracking bonus (IE the Megathron) become very overpowered against frigs. Another is ammo type...do they use the same sized ammo they did before, or do they use ammo sized for the ship? and the list goes on for quite a ways. While I'd love to see more defenses for bigger ships (especially BS and Dreadnoughts) it would probably take too much work for CCP to balance so they don't cause stupidly overpowered ships against frigates/destroyers (like a quad-150mm rail fitted Mega...that would be the bane of every class of frigate due to tracking). (edit: stupid typos )
Tolomea Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.03.29 01:20:00 - [14] I've wanted this for a while, I'd do it like this a dual gun is one size class up from the base weapon a quad gun is two size classes up from the base weapon you get the tracking, optimal, falloff, damage and ammo size of the base the powergrid, cpu, resolution and bonuses of other guns it's size and 2or4 times the clip and rate of fire of the base then you can have med dual-150 large dual-250 quad-150
Durindana Gallente Solar Wind Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.29 01:35:00 - [15] Originally by: Aurael Drakewing Edited by: Aurael Drakewing on 29/03/2007 00:33:31One of the many issues is that if you give them decent tracking, then ships with a tracking bonus (IE the Megathron) become very overpowered against frigs. this is why I don't think this will happen. CCP wants this "role" played by a player in an anti-tackler boat, not by a secondary weapon on a battleship. Specialization = force people into group combat in diverse ships, which is what CCP wants.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.03.29 02:25:00 - [16] If you're going to fix the guns, just allow for a sig res comparable to that of the smaller classed guns. Buff the tracking by 100%. Problem solved. Because I said so...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.29 03:05:00 - [17] Edited by: Goumindong on 29/03/2007 03:03:38 Quote: They would have about the same range, slightly less tracking, same damage mod, use small charges, halved re-fire rate (maybe only a 1/4 reduction), but keep the higher sig resolution. So your solution is to make big ships utterly destroy smaller ships. 33%-100% DPS boost over the smaller rail + damage bonus from ships=wtf pwnage. lets examine this with a Thorax... With antimatter it would hit 281 DPS with the 1/4 rof reduction or 187 DPS as a sniper. On a Brutix this is 393 DPS. These numbers when using the 1/2 rof numbers are 421 and 690 respectivly. And they arent including drones.[+158 each] Small ships are the counter to smaller ships if you get swarmed you should have brought friends. Quote: For anyone who says to just fit the 150mm, or 250mm rails themselves, why do that? They're obviously made for smaller ships, they look silly ON the battleship, they don't get any of the battleships gun bonuses, and they lack a punch that is required to bring down those frigs in a timely fashion. No. If you dedicate your setup to bringing down frigs in a timely fashion you WILL do it. E.G. 7 x Medium Pulse II on a Harbinger looks like this. 10km range w/287 DPS. 3km range w/366 DPS. And it will get 158 DPS in drones on top of that and plenty of space for say, two 1600 plates or whatever you want.[imo, works better with medium beams, 30km range and 180 dps, 235 dps @ 10km] Total with drones is 445/524 And it will do that with an MWD/injector, 2 MARs and a 1600 plate. My retribution does 185 DPS with scorch at 15km and that is enough to kill most frigates before they will close the distance nessesary to start dealing damage. With a web, if you fit small guns you will utterly destroy frigates of all types at all ranges you can reach. This suggestion is terrible. If you want a frigate killer, build a dedicated frigate killer. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2007.03.29 04:48:00 - [18] I for one am hesitant to voice support for this idea. I feel that they would eliminate the pvp roles of frigates and cruisers in a combat environment that is already dominated by the battleship (not even mentioning destroyers and interdictors).
Wylee Coyote	Posted - 2007.03.29 05:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Snikkt For anyone who says to just fit the 150mm, or 250mm rails themselves, why do that? They're obviously made for smaller ships, they look silly ON the battleship, they don't get any of the battleships gun bonuses, and they lack a punch that is required to bring down those frigs in a timely fashion. Loosely translated means: "Boo-hoo, I have the means, but not only is it not an insta I-WIN, it doesn't go well with my dress!!!"
Snikkt Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.29 05:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Snikkt on 29/03/2007 05:06:03 Originally by: Goumindong If you want a frigate killer, build a dedicated frigate killer. And die horribly to the next Cruiser or up that comes along? Originally by: Wylee Coyote Originally by: Snikkt For anyone who says to just fit the 150mm, or 250mm rails themselves, why do that? They're obviously made for smaller ships, they look silly ON the battleship, they don't get any of the battleships gun bonuses, and they lack a punch that is required to bring down those frigs in a timely fashion. Loosely translated means: "Boo-hoo, I have the means, but not only is it not an insta I-WIN, it doesn't go well with my dress!!!" Well, thank god you can accurately interpret exactly what I mean. ------------------- My opinions (ie, all of my posting here) are not my corporations. Nor should it be taken as such.
Maolin Gallente Vanitas Corp.	Posted - 2007.03.29 05:10:00 - [21] Edited by: Maolin on 29/03/2007 05:08:14 I like this idea - frigates would still have a role, they would just have to get up close fast.
William Hamilton	Posted - 2007.03.29 05:17:00 - [22] Agreed, we have assault launchers for missiles, why not do the same for other weapons? I'm not sure I agree with the "quad" part, that might get a bit excessive, but it would be nice to actually have undersized guns. Undersized/oversize weapons FTW!
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.03.29 05:24:00 - [23] 1x Web, 1x heavy nos. If anyone goes into PvP in a BS without those 2 things (or a frigate friend to tackle), then they shouldn't be in a a BS because they are idiots. P.s. I think you'll find blasters track alot better than rails, but stil hit to 15km (on cruisers) and up to 30km (on bs). If a frig flies straight towards you, you will nerf him in a few shots. If he zig-zags and you have no web, then the better pilot won.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.29 06:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Goumindong stuff You do realise that for quite some time plated small gun thoraxes have not been the exception, but rather the rule? Becaus the increse from small to medium guns in dps is laughable, but the fitting requirements get a nice 5-20 x multiplier... For example Small Neutron blaster IIs with void are loads better than medium electron blasters... And you can fit the whole rack of smalls for the fittings of 1 medium... And since you will be at hugging range, even that will not be an issue... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Padma Sky Lumen Et Umbra	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:25:00 - [25] IMHO chage those wapons make much sense. but i'll be a bit more "extreme". Here's my idea: 150mm ( small sized guns): xxx dps, yyy tracking, very low fitting requirement ( for a cruiser) dual 150mm ( med dicex guns): same dps, same traking, same range, everithing exactly the same but med sized fitting requirement ( as they are now). So at the end they do exactly the same dammage, the only difference is that the dual version get the ship bonus at cost of more power requirements. As they are now the dual rails are not worth the difference of requirement simply becas the dammage increase if nullified by the tracking difference. THORAX EXAMPLE Thorax ( as example and with cruiser level 4) could use 5x dual-150mm istead of 5x150mm and uber tank. If will dish 20% more dammage but the weapons needed 400 powercore requirements istead of 50. Keep in mind that the same dps can be reached with just 1 dammage mod. So the choise is have some "better" 150mm at cost of some less plating or more plating and less dps. Actually the 150mm are so better in traching that they are more effective than those dual version. Some adjustment: * At this point the fitting requirements could be reduced also a bit. 80power/gun is a bit to high, 60 is imho better. but this change should be considered looking all gallente/caldari ships. * Projectiles arties should have the dual coutnerpart * the "quad" laser guns should be ballanced ad the medium beam ( small beams) the same ad duals.
Koramaur Gallente Brotherhood of Steel Sentinels Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:28:00 - [26] I don't like this idea. I agree that the dual rails are practically useless, but you want a BS to be effective against a frig.. not that they aren't already extremely effective against them if they have 1x nos 1x web. They all have drone bays, which go from 50m3 being the minimum to 375 max which means they all have enough for 5x mediums or 10x lights which, depending on the frig that's attacking you, is generally more than enough. Battleships already counter BC's, Cruisers and other BS's when fit with their 'default' sized weapons, but now you want them to be able to counter frigs as well? Fit smaller weapons if you're hunting frigs. If you're PvPing in a BS and you get jumped by a bunch of frigs that you weren't fit to kill, too bad. Frigs need a role, and their role is tackling. If you can insta-pop them with a volley from your guns(psst, they don't have a BS tank), they don't have a role.
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:33:00 - [27] All in all, it would be a good idea to encourage the use of other guns than just the biggest. For example by making the sig reso on the guns have a multiplier based on size category: 1 x for the biggest guns, 425mm rails etc(40 small 125m medium, 400 large) 0.8 x for the medium variants, 350mms etc and 0.6 x for the smallest 250mm duals etc. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Goumindong stuff You do realise that for quite some time plated small gun thoraxes have not been the exception, but rather the rule? Becaus the increse from small to medium guns in dps is laughable, but the fitting requirements get a nice 5-20 x multiplier... For example Small Neutron blaster IIs with void are loads better than medium electron blasters... And you can fit the whole rack of smalls for the fittings of 1 medium... And since you will be at hugging range, even that will not be an issue... Small gun thoraxes mainly existed because the thorax was[and is] able to put out a prodigious amount of damage with its drones. Back in the day, it could field something like 8 heavy drones. At that point it was all about armor because the drones did such a large portion of your DPS. Still even today in 1v1 engagements, tank beats gank, and with fragile ships, like cruisers, passive tank rules the day. This means that big plates and small guns. However as gangs get large, damage becomes much more important. The more your drone bay, the more pronounced this becomes. But hitting small ships in a big slow ships requires range and it requires a specialized setups to do well. The intent of the OP was to make weapons that would let bigger ships kill smaller ships easier. My answer was that doing so would promote a system where the smaller big guns would nearly always be the best in any fight because of the uncompromising nature of the DPS they could put out. Imagine a small beam harbinger doing 308 damage with aurora at 30km or 457 @ 10km? With frigate quality tracking? Could any frigate stand up to that? Even close? And that is the LOW numbers for beam damage in the proposed thread. That is 686 dmg with MF[more than current pulse damage with MF] and 457 for the high damage and 800 dps with gleam. You would have brutixes tearing any frigate under 40-50km to absolute shreds. Its just a plain bad idea anyway you slice it. Big ships are vulnerable to multipule small ships. Its a good thing. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Dixon Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.29 08:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Goumindong Big ships are vulnerable to multipule small ships. Its a good thing. Indeed, but I wouldn't say it's unbalanced to have cruisers able to use a medium gun with severely reduced range and dps (which they already have) but good enough tracking to defend themselves from frigates. And the same goes for the dual BS guns, they wouldn't be unbalanced if they could track cruisers well but they shouldn't be able to track frigs.
Shadowsword The Scope	Posted - 2007.03.29 08:40:00 - [30] The last time I argued for a BS-sized, anti-frig gun, Oveur trolled me with a "Battleships aren't supposed to be solo-pwnmobiles" statement. Nevermind that such a battleship would be significantly less effective against another BS. And then CP created Titans... ------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane.

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