New Wolf:

High -
200mm II x 4
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator
Mid -
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low -
Gyro II
TE II
Adaptive Nano II or Reactive II
F85 Peripheral Damage System
200mm Rolled Tungsten Plate
Rigs -
Projectile Collision
Projectile Burst

300 DPS with 12km of falloff or 235 DPS with 17.6km of falloff. I don't know how much more EHP I would get but it would definitely be more then the 5.82k I currently get on my all-or-nothing gank Wolf. Alternatively, I could swap out the nuet and plate for a nos and SAR II. Lots of options. The Wolf will no longer be completely helpless to drones.

The Enyo with an extra mid and 10% dmg/lvl rather then 5% also becomes -finally - a nice alternative to the Wolf.

A 4-4-4 Jaguar is a super Rifter. Artillery Jag is also an option with the tracking bonus. I have a fit that gets a 1k alpha. That's two thirds of a thrasher's while being faster and smaller with more EHP.

Edit: Even Liang will have to respect the Enyo if this goes through.

Heh, did you see what they did to the Harpy? >:-)

-Liang

Heh, did you see what they did to the Harpy? >:-)

-Liang

Did you see what they did to the HAWK?

Yeah I was talking to Korgtronix on Twitter a couple of days ago about a 5 mid Hawk. Unless they give it some more fittings than they're suggesting its gonna be of limited utility though. :(

-Liang

My first thought was YAAAAAY T2 hookbill. Then I considered doing some insane dual small shield boost fit. Then I went and had a lie down.

Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level

Listen or read rather. I look @ relative velocities of ships and effective combat ranges. So that includes overheated modules and were most ships engage.

Most interceptors are most effective under warp scrambler range. To suggest this will not effect them is r3tarded. Since, signature reduction does not help interceptors that much in the current environment. Most are squashed by multiple ships with tracking enhancers. That signature bonus is all they have to even remotely make them distinctive from assault ships. Interceptor velocity does not mean much if they have to go into scram range to apply damage or go into warp disruption range to point a Hurricane.

This is why I write most of you off. Amazing amount of r3tardation...

The signature radius bonus has been a joke for a very long time now and will continue to be. All frigates are squishy. Assault frigates are far superior to ever class of frigate close range.

To even argue otherwise is r3tarded.

I apologize for my rude statements. However I'll leave them as is.

Also, based on those changes. Certain frigates seem very overpowered: Ishkur, Jaguar, Wolf, Harpy, Vengeance.

Ishkur +1 Low-slot
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range per level 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level
Role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Based on that garbage. Seems like CCP plans on screwing over interceptors completely.

Inties still have the speed advantage

Wow, if this goes through the Retribution will be completely obsolete.

The vengeance does comparable dps - without any tracking issues and more tackle and tank.


It's sad that CCP doesn't understand that the retri would do just fine with a 5th turret and a 6th low... The additional turret certainly did not make the zealot overpowered.

and agility advantage. and warp disruption bonuses. and sig radius advantage. as usual, i have no idea what the hell mockingbird is talking about.

Retribution bad? It will be awesome at popping bombers and other low tanked frigs at a range, just like the crusader.

I like the mwd bonus but for ceptors:
ok, they will be used as pure tackler (as someone can say their role) but that s a very limited niche. Outside of that role they will be totally obsolete.

Some people in this thread...
I can't... I don't...
...Sometimes I lose faith in this community

Interceptors have their roles.
They are fast tackle, they are first line of offense in a roaming gang, and offer undeniable utility in fleets.
They have significant advantages over AFs in all tackling related situations (their role) that occur OUTSIDE of scramble range. They will remain a staple of fleets, despite what your terrible pvp-skillz are moaning about.
Combat interceptors will continue to be used, as they are still significantly more effective when it comes to dealing with all electronic attack ships, faction frigates, and of course standard T1.

Assault frigates are taking what is rightfully theirs in that they are for heavy duty combat. They are weak at range against larger targets, and they are slow, stiff frigates in comparison to every other offensive hull.
The MWD bonus is designed to increase their versatility and effectiveness in ALL areas of opportunity, without overpowering them via afterburners. These ships area already extremely difficult to hit once they are under cruiser+ turret tracking without a propulsion mod, and even moreso with an afterburner. The bonus is supposed to assist in getting them to that point without exploding on activation. If you are looking for an overpowered mechanic, you're about a month too late for the Dramiel has already been nerfed.

Consider these changes a wake up.
Change your fitting doctrine up a little bit, and try fitting the ships differently than you've been accustomed to over the past few years. AFs will now become something worth flying, and not something 20 people in all of empire try to gank with***.

If/When these changes actually make it to the test server, play with them, & work with them. Try something new.
I am 100% confident these changes will work out for the best. And yes, the Retribution is completely useless with only 1 mid-slot, and no amount of ship comparisons will change that fact.

***I know it's not actually 20 people, my point is that they are extremely niche ships, almost as bad as EAFs (which also need love

Throwing in the additional comments, given that it is internal, I'm just putting out thoughts, rather than criticising CCP.

I think the problem is that you can't buff AF speed without pushing the redundancy problem to the interceptors. Give the AFs too much speed and their DPS and tank outweighs the benefits of using an interceptor. Likewise, Inty's are used now largely only for their speed. The role bonus to AFs would negate what INTY's essentially have to train level IV interceptors to get.

Given this, a reason to fly Interceptors would need to be created, perhaps give them a role bonus to interdiction maneuvers? Just a thought.

Alternatively, if we are thinking that destroyers are Battle Cruisers, and T2 frigs are T2 Cruisers, how do we define the differences between battlecruisers and HACs? Generally, hacs are more agile, and do potentially more dps, or have other nich aspects.

Likewise, should we see AF's tank/gank buffed a bit to match the same idea?

How is the Retributions wet-paper-towel dps going to help when it gets its "oh so important" second mid though? It will, in practice get out damaged by any other AF, most likely even the Veng... Kind of disapointing when you consider how much fitting it sacrifices using lasers.

Okay, those are some awesome changes.

Tweaking will be needed...but...this is kinda...you know...new, there's that fun thing called testing.

The only real input I have at this stage is that the Retribution will probably still come out substantially weaker and may need a more substantial rebalancing than the others.

Hahahaha. Those preliminary changes would make them so OP it isnt even funny. T1 fit AFs would dwarf officer fit pirate frigs for Goddess sake .. extra slots AND more bonuses ....

No wonder CCP has had issues sorting them if they start at the utmost extreme and then whittle away on them .. waste of time.

PS: Drool at prospect of Retribution with not only the original god-range but with god-tracking and 2nd mid .. trolololol.

-5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level

Sorry is that minus 5% a typo or is the vengs 4th bonus a dps nerf?

I'll go into the Vengeance and Hawk alot more and link some overpowered set-ups.

I'm a little dissapointed by the changes. Won't comment on fitting since that will vary by hull, but the role bonus is very meh. Granted, it's just what AF's need- increasing their survivability combined with mobility. But really, that's what ALL frigates need. The frigate class in general is in a very awkward state. Better IMO to reduce the sig bloom on the 1mn MWD module, and balance the specific hulls for the roles they are intended for.

What's needed is an additional mechanism to the tracking formula that gradually decreases tracking after a certain distance.

That's called falloff.

I'm going to beat you to the punch on the Enyo:

Nano Enyo-
High:
Light Ion Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
MAPC II
F85 Peripheral Damage System
MFS II
OD II
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2677m/s unheated. 3813 m/s heated. 402 DPS with faction AM. 328 DPS Null

Nuet Resistant Enyo-
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Small Cap Booster II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
F85 Peripheral Damage System
SAR II
Reactive Plating II
MAPC I
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2380m/s unheated. 3390 m/s heated. 363 DPS Federal AM. 297 DPS Null

Moar Gank Enyo-
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Low:
F85 Peripheral Damage System
Reactive Plating II
OD II
MFS II
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2677 m/s unheated and 3813 m/s heated. 426 DPS Federal AM and 348 Null.

Falloff has no effect on tracking.

this is the first time i've heard that fleet/gang tackling is a limited niche

No but they are calculated in the same formula giving almost the same thing as if it decreased tracking instead.

Basically, the core problem is that MWDing frigs have a battlecruiser sized sig radius and a frigate tank... and since the nano nerf you don't actually get a damage reduction from MWDing (unless you're using a faction/deadspace MWD).

Indeed, perhaps it's time for CCP to have a good look at how MWDs work. When they changed them (faction versions losing speed advantage) they instead gave them a sig radius bonus showing that they understood the new problem. I wonder what kind of effect dropping MWD sig bloom (by like 50%) would have on pvp scenarios, there's ofcourse the obvious stuff but I'm sure there'll be some emergent new strategies derived from it.

Smaller base sig bloom on MWD would make for entirely different fits and would make "small ship vs large one" fights more interesting. And if you THEN factor in the proposed AF Sig role bonus it starts to make a whole lot more sense.

Just a brain fart ofcourse.

Extra slot + extra bonus + MWD role bonus = OP'ness incarnate. They'd not only make fielding any T1 frigate/destroyer suicidal but obsolete all pirate/navy frigs as well as a good chunk of the T1 cruisers.

If they insist on restricting them in the tank*yawn*spank paradigm they will have to eliminate tiers and/or rebalance each and every other frigate, destroyer/dictor and cruiser in game as there is precious little room for adding "oomph" to AF's which are right smack in the middle of a very crowded part of the balance tables.

It is the Chaos server, internal playground, what is on there means diddly other than the fact that CCP has started floating some balloons (read: "lol" at people thinking that is what will come to pass)

Extra slot + extra bonus + MWD role bonus = OP'ness incarnate. They'd not only make fielding any T1 frigate/destroyer suicidal but obsolete all pirate/navy frigs as well as a good chunk of the T1 cruisers ..

If they insist on restricting them in the tank*yawn*spank paradigm they will have to eliminate tiers and/or rebalance each and every other frigate, destroyer/dictor and cruiser in game as there is precious little room for adding "oomph" to AF's which are right smack in the middle of a very crowded part of the balance tables.

Extra slot + extra bonus + MWD role bonus = OP'ness incarnate. They'd not only make fielding any T1 frigate/destroyer suicidal but obsolete all pirate/navy frigs as well as a good chunk of the T1 cruisers ..

How would Assault Ships being O. P. effect Tech I Frigates in any way, except for the part where they can't fight Assault Ships (which they can't really do right now anyway unless the pilot's a nablet)?

What the **** are you talking about

I love how you simply state its opness incarnate with absolutely no justification or reasoning.

-Liang

For years I've heard, "AF are worthless. T1 Cruisers can do the job for cheaper." Now that claim is challenged and holy **** we're overpowered.

See above.

But to elaborate;
Halving sig bloom when using MWD will make most high calibre medium guns useless against them as tracking becomes all important .. speed tanking will in essence rear its ugly head in Eve once more.
Adding slots universally moves them up through the cruiser line so that they are roughly on-par with the mid-high tier cruisers (slotwise). In conjunction with more tank/spank you are effectively creating cruiser level dps platforms with immense tanking potential (especially horrid example is suggested extra low for Wolf).

Worst of all: Following the tank/spank paradigm while not addressing each hull individually does sod all for the balance within the class, we will still mainly see Wolves/Jaguars/Ishkurs with the occasional guest appearance of some price-dumped "other" .. difference will be that the few top tier cruiser that still venture out will be replaced with AF's that are now equal with the rest of space being taken by the omni-present tier2 BCs.

Tank/Spank won't work!

Most cases that is true, they are cheaper, generally last a bit a longer (depends) but otherwise even'ish. But what if those changes made it to live, would you ever choose a Rupture over a Wolf? Or a lol-Omen over a Retribution?

Fits

The Vengeance is superior @ anal and vaginal warfare.

I plugged one of the rail fits in and and your DPS reflects the current bonuses. The Enyo is having it's damage bonus per level go from 5% to 10%. To get the equivalent DPS you need to plug in the weapon type and the MFS quantity into a daredevil. The last 125mm fit, for example, would get 290 DPS, not 250....

Fiddle with the numbers anyway you'd like. Point being. Enyo is over blown.

But to elaborate;
Halving sig bloom when using MWD will make most high calibre medium guns useless against them as tracking becomes all important .. speed tanking will in essence rear its ugly head in Eve once more.
Adding slots universally moves them up through the cruiser line so that they are roughly on-par with the mid-high tier cruisers (slotwise). In conjunction with more tank/spank you are effectively creating cruiser level dps platforms with immense tanking potential (especially horrid example is suggested extra low for Wolf).

Adding slots universally moves them up through the cruiser line so that they are roughly on-par with the mid-high tier cruisers (slotwise).

AF's should be on par with t1 cruisers like the Rupture, Vexor, etc., because they require more SP and cost 3x as much.

as it should be. AF's should be on par with t1 cruisers like the Rupture, Vexor, etc., because they require more SP and cost 3x as much. AF's are a specialization. as things stand, AF's get shredded by medium and even large guns.

and i agree with Dane. even with these buffs, AF's may not be able to stand up to properly fitted cruisers/BCs.

After the nano nerf frigates enjoyed a little renaissance. Speed tanking was popular. Small rigs had just come out. The web nerf as well as the scrambler change gave alot of options.

The minmatar projectile buff eroded that quite a bit. You have to fly through anywhere from 40km to 80km of falloff to get to the target. In addition to decent tracking the autocannons were assisted by TE that were just about mandatory. If your small ship managed to get under the guns by some miracle - you had one if not two nuets waiting for you as well as a full flight of light drones.

Blaster cruiser/BC I now expect will be able to track and destroy frigates in scramble range. And of course because of Dramiel.

I think this needs to be looked at not in that AF are overpowered but that other frigates need a slight buff. The tier system for Tech 1 should go. Interceptors may need a brush up. Etc.

PS: What is with MWD specific nature of the bonus anyway

But they already are on par with the lower-tier cruisers and are a more expensive (cost + death rate) alternative to the higher-tiers due to the whallop they already pack .. a boost of the magnitude on Chaos pushes them so high that even Ruppies/Vexors will be rare sights.
Not to mention pirate frigs which were recently balanced to equal or exceed T2 .. since I do not think of them as cruiser level (except damage wise) they'd need a hefty boost as well as they need to be above. Same for Navy frigs which are supposed to be just below T2, big boost for them as well.

As I said, it is awfully crowded in the light classes and there is just no room for a meaningful tank/spank boost without upsetting the applecart .. better, easier and more diversifying to look at alternative solutions for the 4th bonus.

PS: What is with MWD specific nature of the bonus anyway, not only does it overlap completely with the interceptor bonus (2/3rds the strength) but it effectively pigeon-holes them into using MWD's as no one likes wasting bonuses .. plus it is a massive benefit to multi-mid hulls which are already viable DP ships (Jag/Ish).
The only 'related' bonus that does not pigeon them or benefit the few extraordinarily would be to give them cap-free propulsion (ie. both AB and MWD). Sure you'd have oversizing to contend with but a few tweaks to AF fittings and prop module requirements would alleviate that .. cruisers/BCs generally have no issues fitting prop unless min/maxing so they shouldn't feel an increase in prop fittings as long as its not extreme.

Hell, one could probably give them a cap+fitting bonus to promote oversizing, giving them a torpedo like behaviour on the battlefield .. considered it as a solution for blasters way back when but with no XL drives the BS wouldn't be covered so never passed 'random thought' stage with me. .

Please show me this wolf fit with 400 DPS, 40k EHP, Web, Scram, and dual neuts.

-Liang

I think its important to look at the tracking formula like this:

tracking_miss_chance = ( angular_velocity / turret_tracking * sig_resolution / sig_radius ) ^ 2
range_miss_chance = ( max(0, range_to_target - optimal) / falloff ) ^ 2

overall_hit_chance = 0.5^(tracking_miss_chance + distance_miss_chance).

There are some things to note about this formula:
- The base is less than zero - thus bigger numbers in the exponent result in smaller chances to hit.
- Both exponent terms are squared, and thus cannot be less than zero. The range is [0, 1]
- If tracking_miss_chance goes to zero (straight approach), you can still miss from distance.
- If the range is below optimal, you can still miss from tracking.
- tracking_miss_chance and distance_miss_chance are added. According to the rules of exponents, we could easily rewrite it like so...

0.5 ^ tracking_miss_chance * 0.5 ^ distance_miss_chance

This makes it plain that we do in fact have to independentchances to miss - one for tracking, one for distance.

Now, as to the suggestion of adding a "falloff" to turret tracking... I'm not really a fan. It seems like - conceptually - if you can move your guns at 0.1 rad/sec and you're accurate out to 5000 meters, that's good enough. There's no reason that at range I'd expect my guns to suddenly be able to move slower. Besides, even if projectiles weren't causing the problem everyone is complaining about, lasers would... its just a matter of being able to hit at range.

Basically, the core problem is that MWDing frigs have a battlecruiser sized sig radius and a frigate tank... and since the nano nerf you don't actually get a damage reduction from MWDing (unless you're using a faction/deadspace MWD).

-Liang

Just thought you'd want to take a chance to back up some of this hogwash you keep spouting.
-Liang

Good Liang;

I am afraid some of your math is off here.

0.5 ^ tracking_miss_chance * 0.5 ^ distance_miss_chance
is not the same as
0.5^(tracking_miss_chance + distance_miss_chance).

Suppose both chances=1, then you are saying the square root of 2 = 1. Clearly false and just one counter example.

your humble servent
Seasaw

Why bother when you are obviously of the belief that hitting a brick-wall with a gun is as easy as hitting a single brick flying across your field of view .. spewing raw dps/EHP numbers in a debate about cruiser vs. frigate balance .. sheesh.

Shall henceforth skip your posts as your actual contributions are so rare and weak that you being gone will have minimal impact on anything of import.

Good Liang;

I am afraid some of your math is off here.

0.5 ^ tracking_miss_chance * 0.5 ^ distance_miss_chance
is not the same as
0.5^(tracking_miss_chance + distance_miss_chance).

Suppose both chances=1, then you are saying the square root of 2 = 1. Clearly false and just one counter example.

your humble servent
Seasaw

Assault Frigates Will Blot Out the Sun...

I would have preferred an AB speed bonus rather than an MWD sig bonus - it's not like we don't already have MWD sig bonused T2 frigs in the game...

Also, if you have not flown a Retribution. STFU! Do so and then come back and tell me they need more damage.


-proxyyyy

They melt Iskurs enyos @ range.

They melt minmatar assault frigates @ range.

the retribution's damage enough compared to the others?

You aren't aware rail ishkurs/enyos out-dps typical scorch retributions right now? They can also out-range them by miles with a simple 5 second reload.

A retribution would struggle to break the shield regen of a jag, and a plated wolf could last until downtime

So, you have access to the chaos server and have flown the buffed AFs and find the retribution's damage enough compared to the others?



You aren't aware rail ishkurs/enyos out-dps typical scorch retributions right now? They can also out-range them by miles with a simple 5 second reload.



A retribution would struggle to break the shield regen of a jag, and a plated wolf could last until downtime.

Unless you happen to have explosive crystals, in which case......WTB.

Proxyyyy says some ******** stuff, but I have to white-knight the one post simply because you make some pretty awful assumptions.

When you fit said ships to put out such high numbers of damage, you have no tank. A tank so small that a fully tanked Retribution doing 200+dps will easily shred them from 15+km or closer. T2 Gallente don't exactly have the best resists against lasers and those ones definitely do not have the ability to tank AND gank enough to surpass a Retribution as easily as you imply.

Right, so the only AFs that feature significantly higher damage output is the Enyo, and Ishkur.

The Wolf is the desired counter to fight a Retribution. That's pretty much what it's made for. The Jag is not, and I think you overestimate the Jaguars resist profile.

No dummy! I've flown the current Retributionsolo and Coercer. With these changes it will get a tracking bonus and a nifty lame sig bonus. However, fittings will pretty much be the same as they're now and damage (be quite and go to your corner).

Ishkur does with drones in scram range. Enyo does but has cannot track a ab'ing frigate so rail-enyos are not used now. How do you fail to notice the pulse retribution out-damage these ships @ range? 13 = 22km? Are you r3tarded? Anyway, shut-up!
-proxyyyy

Have you used a Retribution or Coercer versus a Jaguar or Wolf? Close or @ long range? have you engaged a Retribution or Coercer in a Jaguar or Wolf close range? Again you're pretty r3tarded. Go away. You might learn something new from reading my comments and I'm not sure I'd like you too...

You've shown mind blowing ignorance and will be officially ignored in the future.

Enyo 360dps

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[Empty High slot]

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x1

whitout any sort of cap injection on a enyo whit a similar setup, i bet you get 3-4 cycles of that rep before that cap is all dry when facing any decent jag pilot(as 75% of em use a neut). and giving the veangence a extra high utility slot will certanly make any pilot fitting a small unstable or even a ts small neut onit.
Is was hoping for a increased cap or cap recharge bonus for the enyo as it already has everything a Af needs exept some sort of a capacitor
Swaping that nos-ios setup for chasing some extre neutron-web dps just makes you loose another killmail faster then ever before.

Didn't even waste time reading that. I can only assume he's attempting to correct his errors and come to grips with his retardation. Which is a serious mental illness... Sad when you're not able to help r3tards. Sometimes all you can do is smile and give hugs.

= ) Dane you're doing good <3. Keep on trying to play spaceships.


Really sad though = ( What a waste...


-proxyyyy

I have no logic to argue with you so I will instead insult you and pretend you said nothing in order to safe face.

Translation:




Come on, I called you out twice. Man up and have a serious discussion.

Isn't really worth the time for him to bother, imo. Trying to act like a .12ish tracking on one of, if not the slowest, battle frig is an acceptable number is a bit silly.

Failure to acknowledge instant ammo swap to m-faction/conf from scorch too when range and fight style demands it is also an option a pulse retri has that a rail enyo does not.

The R-enyo's tracking is going to suck that much more against some targets if fights hit that angle (and some will without question), and dps/tracking not climbing enough when switched to jav ammo, compared to what a P-retri can swap into.. come on. This isn't an irrelevent point by any stretch.

Pointing out one angle is nice.. better off conveying the whole scope tho if truly want to win an arguement. There is no complete package, and there is never a gurantee to always fight how you want to fight (minus pre-crucible dram).

"Enyo 360dps

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[Empty High slot]

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x1"

Looks good however i'd keep a t2 reactive or even dead space plating in hold in case you run into ships that do heavy explosive dmg, as most frigates that are commonly used do explosive dmg. On a side note, for those that do not know... Lots of low end dead space gear is dirty cheap especially at the frigate level. Fitting a couple of these mods can free up cpu or allow for significant speed advantages if a c(b)-type 1mn ab is used (can get for 4-15 mil)

I'd also suggest you drop the mwd in favor of an ab and use the extra grid to fit a small nos in your empty slot. W/o the nos you will lose the ship more often than not, look at previous posts for reasons why.

I showed you the numbers. You are the third person I am challenging to show me a reason to use a retribution over another AF.

Do you not fit plates and/or armor rigs to your enyos? Would have to not fit such to give it average speed vs the rest of the frig world.. huh.

I think you should quit ignoring the potential and effect of being the AF with the best powergrid as well as having a rather nice resist pattern that give it one of the thickest natural base ehps.

No idea what other tweaks are going to be made, to think they toss on an additional slot without doing anything to each ones cpu/pw I find to be a bit of a stretch.. but won't blame anyone for assuming otherwise. It may very well end up that the retribution will have the easiest path to making its top tier weapon, in small m-pulse, be able to fit without as much sacrifice as others. Make it fit on the utility high without as much sacrifice as others. These are very key aspects to consider.. very important as they are the reality on what determines the full ability of a ship. Maybe what you should be doing.. is comparing small m-pulse to the 125mm rail instead of the dual.

What I see is an mwd AF with the potential to sport the best all around mix of range, dps, dmg projection, and tank while keeping its utility high in use out of all of them. Only time will tell.

Using numbers is great.. use all of them though. I'm not going to bother hashing out fits until I see final grid specs myself tho.

~Stuff~

What difference does speed make, since you want to turn this into a enyo vs retri fight for some reason instead either vs all.. when the P-retri is able to proj dps along a better arc, with better tracking, than an R-enyo? Make up your mind the relevence of things, instead of skewing, cutting out and pasting in when it fits your arguement (or inserting when it doesn't make sense to do so on your behalf).

Are you not happy with how good a vengence is? Stating how irrelevent tank is.. when it comes to a frig, I rather like a frig that has a more impressive tank for tackling duties and holding off a flight of lights.. ESPECIALLY on the slower frigs, I find tank so much more important. Would you rather your AF melt to a dessie, or atleast give one a run for its money? Obviously it depends on how much dps you get for how much ehp you lose, and vice versa.. what dps increase are you imagining that wins out over ehp?

I do not recall talking about any kind of ehp other than natural base, which gives the potential when so high to be better than others. I stated I'm not making any fits until exact new specs are released.. otherwise I am wasting my time without knowing everything possible. And so are you. I'm making the point that cpu/pw determine more than you seem to be willing to admit when comparing ships, and builds. Comparing similiar based weapon systems to one another is fine.. but isn't the whole story when you insert ship vs ship, cause ships can fit certain/better ways over counterparts.

So create whatever you want, without even knowing what exactly is going to take place. It all really is speculating. Just like I can speculate that a 5-2-5 AF with that gracious resist pattern could very well fit a small m-pulse setup with a 10k+ ehp buffer fit and have better dps projection/numbers than a wolf.

I just showed you the math that PROVES a rail enyo has equivalent tracking and greater dps, plus the ability to PROJECT DPS FURTHER. It is also, you know, faster...so

"Insiders" report it will be better than it is now. Will do more DPS than the Vengeance (some 25-30%) if sticking to kinetic, but the vengeance will also be a tough opponent with better dmg selection.

Think the Caldari ASs will get some CPU fitting increase, but I don't think you will be able to do dual prop, top guns (think the Hawk will be a 3-2 now, requiring guns) cap boosters etc without going the micro aux and/or PG rig way. Yet "better than current" setups with more DPS too boot and relatively straight-forward fitting with T2 modules and 1-2 meta 4s.

Remember, the Devs want to give some utility to these ships (some of the most underutilized T2 hulls - jokingly in TS convs, there was a claim that more Titans are downed than EAFs in EVE-O), not break them into the uber i-win ships.

More braking stumping and tire spinning words

EFT WARRIOR

GET OUT

Even with one mid: Retribution is awesome, full stop. If you don't see that then you do not know the ship. Great damage, superb range and good mobility, all essential in frigate combat .. doesn't solo well but it's racial partner has the meanest tank and is probably the finest heavy'ish tackler available in game.

stuff

And do show this 150mm rail mwd enyo, purty pwease. Curious how you pulled off, since you jus' stated you could.


35% base.. hole. that's so sad.. I.. feel so sorry for you. 227.5 natural base total in armor for retri, 225 for shield for jag (sure, ignore the armor tanking wolves hole, HA! good try) better is still better even if slighty better. Do ignore jag's hole is where caldari's are happy with their kin bonus, and hybrids.. like say, idk.. an enyo.. do dmg. Enyo with its fat ass explosive hole.. caldari with their em holes. You're really going to try and argue retrib's resist pattern isn;'t good enough? Stop talking.

What was that wolf and 24km crap? No.. I got it. But do you grasp how falloff takes a dump on dps the further n further you get into it? Try that on one of the idiots that don't know how it works and will believe when someone says 'my wolf does 170ish barrage dps all the way to 19km herpderpherp'.

It's rather obvious now that you are trying to push this thing will beyond the abilities of the other AFs. So keep on spitting out crap on here, spin your tires when you get called out, n keep on bitchin. Do what you do best I guess.

That's the worst role bonus I've ever seen on a ship.

This thread is full of people who have no idea what they're talking about

Including this guy:

I hear Interceptors are pretty useless

Please deposit all Dramiels and Daredevils into the trash receptacle upon exiting the vehicle.....

Okay. But when I see these little (rebuffed) boats approaching towards my Tornado, I will just swicth the scripts and alpha them, one-by-one, while happily mwd-ing away. 50% bonus to sig while mwd-ing is next to nothing, even if I take to account that not ALL AF-pilots are helpless noobs to approach directly.

So, my recommendation will be to give an AB speed-bonus instead of any MWD-bonus, so much that the slowest AF's speed should be in-par with an overheated mwd-speed of the tier3 BCs. This way AF-s can still have some cap when they reach target, and most of them needs some spare cap to fight.

Tier 3 BC are completely helpless against any competent frigate pilot. It needs backup. If you want to take your Tornado out solo it will die embarrassingly the first time a frigate lands 20km off of it.

Boosting AB speed has already been tried and proven to be a failure of epic proportions.

Move along.

care to elaborate?...

I agree that the MWD bonus is a little disappointing. All AF's gain an extra slot but none of them gain grid increases and only some a CPU increase. I don't know how hard some of the AF's are to fit atm but it'll become more difficult.

Is there an eft like program that has them?

EFT 2.14.2 has the new AFs in them. Under Ships->Assault Ships, there are both the new versions and the old versions.

New AFs added as separate ships called "TEST Vengeance", "TEST Retribution", etc. Same with "TEST Null" ammo. If you don't have them make sure you've correctly replaced all the files during update.

so anyone else fitting up a vengeance now? how are people handling the new grid issues that comp with fitting another high slot mod? or just strapping something on as a heatsink?

MIne is
high
4 rocket T2
1 small NOS T2
mid
1 1mn meta 2 MWD
1 Webber T2
1 scrambler T2
low
1 breifcase T2
1 coreli A-type therm plate
2 small armor repper T2
rigs
2 missile damage rigs


It all seems to fit just fine