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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
14594
   |
Posted - 2016.11.08 17:51:20 -
[1] - Quote
Hi folks.
With the upcoming release of Engineering Complexes in Ascension, we're taking the opportunity to look at the build/research/copy times of some of the largest blueprints in EVE. This will help ensure that production rates don't get too out of control with the bonuses on the new structures, and also generally cleans up some of the progression of build times between smaller and larger items.
The current plan is:
- Titan/Supercarrier blueprints: +100% build/research/copy time
- Carrier/Dread/Force Aux/Rorqual blueprints: +33% build/research/copy time
- All Upwell Structure blueprints: +33% build/research/copy time
Shout of the the CSM for helping ensure this stayed on our radar.
Let us know what you think in this thread.
Thanks!
Game Designer | Team Five-0
Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
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Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Mercenary Coalition
3134
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 18:41:04 -
[2] - Quote
I'm assuming the negative effect on jobs done in POS, NPC stations, and outposts is intended? And if so, why? |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
518
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 18:43:53 -
[3] - Quote
What happens to already installed jobs?
Fear God and Thread Nought
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
410
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 21:30:03 -
[4] - Quote
Rowells wrote:I'm assuming the negative effect on jobs done in POS, NPC stations, and outposts is intended? And if so, why?
Pos are going away and the rest can't be killed. The idea behind the new structures is to have stuff to shoot |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
410
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 21:30:54 -
[5] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:What happens to already installed jobs?
99.999999% Nothing |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
410
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 21:33:10 -
[6] - Quote
Caps should be 50%, maybe 75%
This affects system index as well |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Mercenary Coalition
3134
|
Posted - 2016.11.08 23:41:37 -
[7] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Rowells wrote:I'm assuming the negative effect on jobs done in POS, NPC stations, and outposts is intended? And if so, why? Pos are going away and the rest can't be killed. The idea behind the new structures is to have stuff to shoot
So what's the purpose of needing POSes if they won't be gone for at least another year, or that suddenly NPC stations need this size of a nerf? |
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
25
|
Posted - 2016.11.09 06:56:01 -
[8] - Quote
Fozzie,
Is that just the actual hull BPO, or does it include the Capital Construction components BPOs? And freighters do not seem to be impacted. |
Andrew Indy
Jedran Space Services
164
|
Posted - 2016.11.09 07:35:02 -
[9] - Quote
Rowells wrote:
Pos are going away and the rest can't be killed. The idea behind the new structures is to have stuff to shoot
So what's the purpose of needing POSes if they won't be gone for at least another year, or that suddenly NPC stations need this size of a nerf?[/quote]
I believe that the whole point was to drive people into Citadels. More things to shoot, more fuel being used so more ice needing to be mined (POS's are not really being considered in balancing since they will go away ).
Also i'm assuming that the long term goal is to start reducing reliance on NPC stations so they can fase those out to (even if just partly.) .
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Soldarius
O C C U P Y
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1539
|
Posted - 2016.11.09 14:40:22 -
[10] - Quote
ofc, anyone building any of these things in anything except an EC is now screwed.
Lets just say I feel even more incentive to build an EC.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
13
|
Posted - 2016.11.09 15:57:31 -
[11] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:Rowells wrote:
Pos are going away and the rest can't be killed. The idea behind the new structures is to have stuff to shoot
So what's the purpose of needing POSes if they won't be gone for at least another year, or that suddenly NPC stations need this size of a nerf?
I believe that the whole point was to drive people into Citadels. More things to shoot, more fuel being used so more ice needing to be mined (POS's are not really being considered in balancing since they will go away ).
Also i'm assuming that the long term goal is to start reducing reliance on NPC stations so they can fase those out to (even if just partly.) .
[/quote]
There is some low hanging fruit in terms of phasing out some NPC stations, like systems with 15 different stations... They should remove/merge some stations a bit unnecessary.
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Careby
308
|
Posted - 2016.11.10 13:18:49 -
[12] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:...This affects system index as well
System cost index rears its ugly head at every turn when planning EC deployments. It made a little bit of sense to spread industry out when slots were eliminated, and it was workable with relocatable POSes. But it seems to be at odds with the introduction of ECs.
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Tasuku Furukawa
SAKUMA DROP
Caladrius Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.10 15:31:53 -
[13] - Quote
I disagree about increasing BPO research time.
Many players started EVE after Crius update are taken pains by overwhelming research time and cost, especially some of the largest blueprints.
Please take care of new players.
Japanese DUST and EVE player.Character name is DJIPS/Tasuku Furukawa.
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Lexx Devi
Freeport . 7
1
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 02:09:11 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:The current plan is:
Titan/Supercarrier blueprints: +100% build/research/copy time
Carrier/Dread/Force Aux/Rorqual blueprints: +33% build/research/copy time
All Upwell Structure blueprints: +33% build/research/copy time
Shout of the the CSM for helping ensure this stayed on our radar.
Let us know what you think in this thread.
Thanks!
+100%/+33%? Funny, CSM for helping ensure this change?
I get the sense someone is lobbying to slow Super & Citadel i smell illuminati in fear. 
Production Revolution to be shared to all of eve, supporting smaller alliances, nah kill em go ahead. Never the less. 
BPOs Research time is already to long for larger BPOs, & will stop even some veterans from making effective BPOs within a ONE or COUPLE of YEARS of locked.
Quote:I disagree about increasing BPO research time.
Many players started EVE after Crius update are taken pains by overwhelming research time and cost, especially some of the largest blueprints.
Please take care of new players.
I agree!!! 
*Last note
I sak you all to consider adding tracking management & share features to Blueprint ingame.
I don't mind it being stolen by corp mates. 
-It Is really difficult & unintuitive for new players to set up Corporation roles & cans for Sharing BPOs.  |
MIZU FROZEN
Peoples Liberation Army
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 08:19:41 -
[15] - Quote
LOL, ROIT afraid Zed is over-power, so they nref irelia
eve afraid citadel production is overpower, so you nerf pos and station production, not just nerf the rig for citadel.
Good job and clever. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Badfellas Inc.
314
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 13:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Do we get 10 day leeway on cap and 18 day on super times due to the build times of the complex's? |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
410
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 16:05:55 -
[17] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Rowells wrote:I'm assuming the negative effect on jobs done in POS, NPC stations, and outposts is intended? And if so, why? Pos are going away and the rest can't be killed. The idea behind the new structures is to have stuff to shoot So what's the purpose of needing POSes if they won't be gone for at least another year, or that suddenly NPC stations need this size of a nerf?
POS won't go away until cyno beacons, jammer and jump bridges are moved to other structures
Outposts can't be planted or upgraded after ascension, i would suspect if EC go well, by next expansion anchoring or science and industry modules will either be restricted or bonuses removed by then as well |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
410
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 16:06:49 -
[18] - Quote
Tasuku Furukawa wrote:I disagree about increasing BPO research time.
Many players started EVE after Crius update are taken pains by overwhelming research time and cost, especially some of the largest blueprints.
Please take care of new players.
The bonuses afforded by science rigs means the time are reduced IMMENSELY, this just somewhat normalizes them to the max allowed as we are today with a T3 caldari outpost |
MicDeath Titan
Titans Guild
The Amish Mafia
124
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 16:17:22 -
[19] - Quote
increase in manufacturing I can see, but research? for the love of all that is holy and ****, god no. Some of the larger BPO's are already a 6 year+ ordeal, with skills mind you, and you want to make it 12+ years? WHY?
Manufacturing is fine, if anything, research times should be lowered. |
Black Romero
Aviation Professionals for EVE
The Ditanian Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2016.11.11 19:56:14 -
[20] - Quote
MicDeath Titan wrote:increase in manufacturing I can see, but research? for the love of all that is holy and ****, god no. Some of the larger BPO's are already a 6 year+ ordeal, with skills mind you, and you want to make it 12+ years? WHY?
Manufacturing is fine, if anything, research times should be lowered.
How about some numbers like this player is talking about CCP Fozzie?
Show us in Engineering Citadel with max versus Hisec.
Show us in normal citadel max versus hisec. |
Tasuku Furukawa
SAKUMA DROP
Caladrius Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 02:09:53 -
[21] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Tasuku Furukawa wrote:I disagree about increasing BPO research time.
Many players started EVE after Crius update are taken pains by overwhelming research time and cost, especially some of the largest blueprints.
Please take care of new players. The bonuses afforded by science rigs means the time are reduced IMMENSELY, this just somewhat normalizes them to the max allowed as we are today with a T3 caldari outpost
I am really happy to reduce research time thanks to ECs and their science rigs. But actually, If this change is applied, required research time is increasing. T3 Caldari outpost TE bonus is 60% and ECs MAX TE bonus is 65.28%, so research time decrease only 13.2% if you prepare BEST environment. +33%/+100% is unadjusted !
Japanese DUST and EVE player.Character name is DJIPS/Tasuku Furukawa.
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Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
70
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 10:16:13 -
[22] - Quote
If you feel that some blueprints manufacturing time has got too low, then perhaps this same change needs to be applied to *all* blueprints. The general TE ramp-up that we may be seeing over the last 2 years may only cause more product categories to be flooded. I'm not sure if across the board TE-increases is healthy.
So I wonder if every blueprint should get a 30% TE reduction due to the introduction of ECs witih silly levels of bonuses.
Trade Hub Price Checker: stop.hammerti.me.uk/pricecheck
Visit "Haulers Channel" in game for all matters courier-related.
Citadel name/system API: stop.hammerti.me.uk/api
|
Careby
308
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 11:59:50 -
[23] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:...So I wonder if every blueprint should get a 30% TE reduction due to the introduction of ECs witih silly levels of bonuses.
Starting a year long research job in a destructible EC is not without risk.
|
Z1gy
Vindicator Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 14:26:16 -
[24] - Quote
so 33% percent increase and correct me if my math is wrong
to get an archon BPO from ME9 to ME10 now would take me 343 days 6 hour 53 minutes and 20 sec in high sec station
add that 33% after patch would make that around 456 days in a high sec station?
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Vaughn Blackleg
Three Ring Labs
FUBAR.
3
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 15:28:11 -
[25] - Quote
Fozzie, Please, whatever you do with the prints thats fine, but please can we get stacking BPC's for the Capital components. Please. Have you tried to count out copies for a Titan ?? Painfull.  |
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
856
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 17:05:12 -
[26] - Quote
With another change forcing players into Engineering Complexes, and this one being a shiny one. I'm happy I don't do large scale/Capital Industry to begin with! |
Lupercus Mars
Hawking Applied Sciences Institute
3
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 18:22:44 -
[27] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:With another change forcing players into Engineering Complexes, and this one being a shiny one. I'm happy I don't do large scale/Capital Industry to begin with!
as someone who does capital industry, this is a good change. Befor this change we where looking at supers beeing build in 8 days and titans in 16 days. Which is just stupid lol |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3089
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 23:13:40 -
[28] - Quote
CCP, can you please check the invention time of the Industrial Core II, on SiSi and TQ it says for me 10 day. This can't be right for a ~100M item?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Careby
310
|
Posted - 2016.11.12 23:36:26 -
[29] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:CCP, can you please check the invention time of the Industrial Core II, on SiSi and TQ it says for me 10 day. This can't be right for a ~100M item?
You're not supposed to tell anyone it's on TQ!
|
Covering YrBack
Wolfspack
Soviet-Union
0
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 00:29:27 -
[30] - Quote
I dont really understand the trend to **** in players face , but whatever.
If you wanted to buy some supercapital bpo and research it - forget.
Supercapital arrays become dead cargo , cause nobody would risk building supercapital if it takes 2 months on it.
No idea why this affects dreads faxes and carriers since they are expendable one way ticket ships.
If you want to lower supercapital ships percentage in game then you should make fighting points where they can be used.
Since supers will be no longer build on posses , you take off a part of game which required severe scouting and tracking for these posses, cause citadels can be easily found in space.
There are few contracts with leviathan/hel copies and now you want to make it worse ? |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3089
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 08:25:46 -
[31] - Quote
Careby wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:CCP, can you please check the invention time of the Industrial Core II, on SiSi and TQ it says for me 10 day. This can't be right for a ~100M item? You're not supposed to tell anyone it's on TQ!
Why?
The T2 item is not listed in the market yet, but everybody can simulate the invention. I was not expecting it to actually work, so didn't try ... however if you can start the invention already now, this would be an explanation for the extra time, to make sure the BPC does not come into existence before Tuesday. Did CCP ever do this kind of move before, without notice?
Clarification is required.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Jack Oat
Brothers In Arms.
SOLAR FLEET
2
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 13:35:19 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Please,
Allow some grace period of a week or two,
to allow players to actually build at least some new infrastructure.
Regards,
Jack |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin.
DARKNESS.
2801
|
Posted - 2016.11.13 14:05:07 -
[33] - Quote
Fozzie and the CSM, how about you use your time more constructively instead? I have something that needs fixing: Sort the god damn list entries in the component section in Blueprints alphabetically! Their sorting is completely random and a mess, whereas the everywhere else things are properly sorted in alphabetic order. This has been an issue for over many years now!
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
27
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 02:15:27 -
[34] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Fozzie and the CSM, how about you use your time more constructively instead? I have something that needs fixing: Sort the god damn list entries in the component section in Blueprints alphabetically! Their sorting is completely random and a mess, whereas everywhere else things are properly sorted in alphabetic order. This has been an issue for over many years now!
Same with the list of facilities in the industry panel drop-down menu
Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.
|
Lightning Q
Taurus Quantum Technologies
Taurus Quantum Dynamics
2
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 10:38:41 -
[35] - Quote
Ellowah
Since I build the normal caps I can agree on longer manufactering times for the carriers/dreads.
The market got saturated (for some caps) after the latest expantions.
However longer ME & TE research I do NOT agree on, it already takes years to get these bpo's researched.
Let alone before the BPO + research is earned back.
Copying I can agree on, since if people will be building less caps less bpc's will be needed, or risk an oversuply of BPC's.
And it's better to sell coppies at a proper price then trowing them away for a few mil.
And indeed sort the Required Materials list alphabeticly ! how hard can that be :p
No experience with supers or titans so can't comment on those % |
Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
70
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 10:47:25 -
[36] - Quote
Careby wrote:Messenger Of Truth wrote:...So I wonder if every blueprint should get a 30% TE reduction due to the introduction of ECs witih silly levels of bonuses. Starting a year long research job in a destructible EC is not without risk.
Only if you don't bother to log in and cancel the job during the 8+days between your EC being first attacked and being destroyed!
Trade Hub Price Checker: stop.hammerti.me.uk/pricecheck
Visit "Haulers Channel" in game for all matters courier-related.
Citadel name/system API: stop.hammerti.me.uk/api
|
Careby
311
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:00:10 -
[37] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:Careby wrote:Starting a year long research job in a destructible EC is not without risk.
Only if you don't bother to log in and cancel the job during the 8+days between your EC being first attacked and being destroyed!
Canceling research jobs accomplishes nothing. Assuming you don't do your research in wormhole space, the BPO is not at risk either way. But the job installation cost and the time spent researching are lost when the structure is destroyed OR when you cancel the job. I don't know about you, but for me the risk of losing months of research on expensive blueprints is at least something to consider when choosing between EC and station.
For manufacturing jobs, canceling won't save you anything either, but it does deny the attacker a chance at some loot.
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Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
192
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:07:32 -
[38] - Quote
So ME 9 to 10 on a titan blueprint will take 1313 days * .3472 = 455 days (- a month or so for the 5% implant) in a destructible facility. New entities seeking to enter this level of gameplay are going to be thrilled!
Good thing some people have grandfathered ME10 blueprints that were handed to them a couple years back.
Build time? Sure. Copy? Yeah, it encourages people to get more blueprints in general and deters the ability of the grandfathered few to saturate the market with perfect copies.
Research? If the bonuses are too strong, the bonuses are too strong and it will affect markets wider than this change. Why arbitrarily increase it for these particular blueprints, instead of toning down the bonuses, or a proper balance pass on blueprints?
If the change does not affect components, only the hulls, will it have the desired result? Particularly in the regular cap department? The research change will only delay the inevitable of producers getting additional hull prints up to acceptable levels. Then it's back to current production rates using their current, researched component library. It does more to handicap new producers entering the market than lower overall production rates, or prevent a would-be increase. |
GeeBee
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
124
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:18:15 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hi folks. With the upcoming release of Engineering Complexes in Ascension, we're taking the opportunity to look at the build/research/copy times of some of the largest blueprints in EVE. This will help ensure that production rates don't get too out of control with the bonuses on the new structures, and also generally cleans up some of the progression of build times between smaller and larger items. The current plan is: - Titan/Supercarrier blueprints: +100% build/research/copy time
- Carrier/Dread/Force Aux/Rorqual blueprints: +33% build/research/copy time
- All Upwell Structure blueprints: +33% build/research/copy time
Shout of the the CSM for helping ensure this stayed on our radar. Let us know what you think in this thread. Thanks!
I would like to request the 100% research time on Titan/Supercarrier blueprints not be implemented - no research time increase or at max 33% research time increase is needed. The Market for researching Super/Titan BPO's has been borked ever since Greyscale Nuked the old ME/PE system and converted to this new system. The time and cost of researching blueprints from the old system to the new system is already out of line. This simply reinforces the balance of power in the game to older players.
I'm not going to do the math to show the work but you're making a huge mistake here. I agree with the copy times and build times but not research times, that is already way too high and too long.
Until there is at least some form of incremental progress on the levels of the blueprints I strongly suggest this be reconsidered. |
Tasuku Furukawa
SAKUMA DROP
Caladrius Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 15:47:37 -
[40] - Quote
I am disappointed that research time is increasing by Ascension update. 
Why you force new manufacturer to further burden ?
I can't understand.
Japanese DUST and EVE player.Character name is DJIPS/Tasuku Furukawa.
|
Kenrailae
The Scope
Gallente Federation
640
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 16:29:41 -
[41] - Quote
Vaughn Blackleg wrote:Fozzie, Please, whatever you do with the prints thats fine, but please can we get stacking BPC's for the Capital components. Please. Have you tried to count out copies for a Titan ?? Painfull.
This^
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
|
Tasuku Furukawa
SAKUMA DROP
Caladrius Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 08:35:03 -
[42] - Quote
Before Ascension update, there is no TE bonus about build to SC/TT. The maximum job speed bonus available from Upwell structures after Ascension is 65.28%, so I agree increasing SC/TT build time.
About copying, there has been outpost TE bonus between 20%~60% before Ascension. Increasing required time exceed bonus change, but a time required copying is not so long, so I agree increasing copy time.
Researching is same as copying, but required time is so long and cost is so heavy. After Ascension, researching SC 9 to 10 with ideal environment required about 11.2 months. If TT, required 16.8 months. I think It's crazy, so I disagree increasing research time.
At this thread, many people agree increasing required time about build and copy but disagree about research. CCP Fozzie, please tell us what you get by our feedback.
Japanese DUST and EVE player.Character name is DJIPS/Tasuku Furukawa.
|
Mordachai
SevLite Enterprises Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 12:38:38 -
[43] - Quote
Vaughn Blackleg wrote:Fozzie, Please, whatever you do with the prints thats fine, but please can we get stacking BPC's for the Capital components. Please. Have you tried to count out copies for a Titan ?? Painfull.
pwetty please do somethign about the gizillion cans with 1k copies in them .... |
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
78
|
Posted - 2016.12.04 13:31:14 -
[44] - Quote
Would be nice if some of the Citadel / Engineering Array Blueprints could benefit from ME research. The current design means that only the largest variants benefit outside of rapid equipment array build times with 5 ME (Which will obviously be removed with poses).
By making ME research pointless you remove a whole style of long-term research and investment which makes the player market, and potential resale of them very minimal. Please rethink this decision. |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Badfellas Inc.
322
|
Posted - 2016.12.04 20:00:56 -
[45] - Quote
Fifth Blade wrote:Would be nice if some of the Citadel / Engineering Array Blueprints could benefit from ME research. The current design means that only the largest variants benefit outside of rapid equipment array build times with 5 ME (Which will obviously be removed with poses).
By making ME research pointless you remove a whole style of long-term research and investment which makes the player market, and potential resale of them very minimal. Please rethink this decision.
even the most basic one benefits from me bonuses once you hit me 8 combined with a rigged EC...
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