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High damage T1 projectile ammo needs a boost

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Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:11:00 - [1] Originally by: dalman added There is also more of a real reason for this, that most aren't aware of, but it's very logical. Projectile shortrange ammo do less damage than the others, projectile long do more damage than the others. Now look at the bonus/penalty to range: It says optimal range. And projectiles has much greater falloff than the others. Projectiles aren't hurt as much by the range penalty on EMP, hence get lower damage. Projectile don't benefit as much by the range bonus on long range ammo, hence they get higher damage. If you think about that, it all makes perfect sense. Once upon a time the above where both true and balanced but that was before the addition of t2 ammo which screwed up the balance. Long range ammo has been completely surpassed by long range t2 ammo making any advantage here worthless but on the other hand you could say that this is balanced out by the fact that short range t2 projectile ammo does not suffer the damage loss emp has. The above means that minmatar has become better at short range and worse at long range compared to the other races and how they used to be. Wonder if that was really intended. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:12:00 - [2] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 03:54:03 Originally by: Wrayeth Actually, not true. Because the Matari ship is fighting so far into falloff, it misses a lot and hit quality is poor. With barrage vs. null and also taking drones into account, a blasterthron has the DPS advantage over an AC tempest out to 24km. Naughty Boy ran the numbers on that a couple months back. EDIT: Coincidentally, 24km is the max scramble range of the warp disruptor II. :P False, above web range, if the Minmatar is fighting in falloff, the Gallente is fighting in deeper falloff. Much deeper falloff. Your numbers are for pre-kali null, and are as such wrong. They also dont figure that a minmatar BS can fit 3 projectile rigs on their highest damage gun and still have room to spare. I just gave you the numbers, with Hail a Maelstrom which has 15km falloff with the hail does 850 dps, a Megathron does about 880 DPS. You need to redo your math. Here is the damage graph. The 2 top are with drones and the 2 bottom are without. As you can see the hyperion outdamages the maelstrom out to 23-24km without taking drones into account and out to 28-29 with drones. AC vs Blasters ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:04:00 - [3] Sorry I was using an older version from the time in testing when maelstrom had 75m3 drone bay. BUT falloff rigs does almost nothing here, they increase damage out at 40-60km but in this range what matter is damage reduction from falloff of the blasters not the ACs. Also if you are going to add falloff rigs to the maelstrom you need to add resist rigs to the hyperion. Even when using standard tanks, (1x em II + 2x inv field II for mael, 2x ean II + 1x DC II for hyp), having 3 damage mods on the maelstrom and only 2 on the hyperion, 3 falloff rigs on the mael but no rigs at all on the hyperion. The hyperion will STILL outdamage the maelstrom out to 15km. That's with no drones because now adding drones actually matters because lowest resists on the tanks and highest damage for different drones giving the hyperion an even larger advantage. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Kagura Nikon well the standard tank for a maesltrom is 2 boost Amp II 2 invul II 1 X-Large SB. The hyperion will need the resist rigs just to match this tank. Granted the hyp will have mid slots to play with facny stuff... also.. again.. you remembered to use 3 damage mods on the maesltrom? Sicne every maesltrom flying will have them? While if the hype doe sthat.. it will have a tank so much weaker than the maesltrom, that there won't even be competition on a fight between them. Outdamaging the hype and mega above 15km is already pretty dam good. Under 15km it is blaster territory... further than that and it even.. 20km onwards and projectiles win easily.... Fallof rigs matter because they diminish the dps reduction that your guns would have at 20-30 km. In fact they are far more effective than damage rigs. Did you even read what I wrote, I stacked everything in the maelstroms favor and it came out lacking. I included 3 damage mods on maelstorm and only 2 on hyperion, I included 3 falloff rigs (which btw at 20km increase the dps by a whopping 6%). I included damage vs tank which you say work so much in the projectile users favor. Btw with the tank you posted above you can't kill a hyperion, that's 5 of the 6 mids, that leaves 1 mid to fit scram/mwd/web/injector all of which a hyperion will have. It means you have no way of controlling range, and/or no way of holding down the target. Because you have no injector the tank will still be better on the hyperion (and no the cap usage of the guns do not eat up all the injected cap). ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Veneth Wow it's amazing how a discussion about emp ammo turns into a fight about maelstrom tanks with t2 ammo vs hyperions with t2 ammo. While I in some part agree you can not have this discussion without including t2 ammo in it. The reason EMP does less damage than the others where correctly stated by Dalman. Because projectile guns relay less on optimal they will loose less range by choosing short range ammo and they will gain less range by choosing long range ammo. To balance this short range ammo does slight less damage and long range does slight more compared to the other races. This where all balanced and good until t2 ammo came onto the scene. Now the damage advantage of long range ammo is gone because for t2 long range there are no such advantage. And when we look at short range guns projectiles used to be able to do better damage at range mostly because they could always use the short range (but slight less damage) emp even for long range. This meant that if the projectile user could maintain range be could beat blasters but if he couldn't he would loose. BUT then again t2 ammo came and the range at which the projectile user had to be before he could outdamage the blaster user where pushed out so far that it ended up outside scramble range and such where useless. So you can't have this discussion without including t2 ammo because none of the things emp damage where balanced around hold true anymore. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:47:00 - [6] Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 17:43:26 Originally by: Goumindong EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. I didn't said one thing about damage types in the text you quoted. The damage reduction on EMP has NOTHING to do with damage types. Try reading before commenting instead of assuming. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:15:00 - [7] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 17:53:17 Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 17:43:26 Originally by: Goumindong EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. I didn't said one thing about damage types in the text you quoted. The damage reduction on EMP has NOTHING to do with damage types. Try reading before commenting instead of assuming. how much more damage does EMP does over phased plasma? 4 points (for large) just like Antimatter does 4 points more damage than Plutonium which has the same range reduction as Phased Plasma. You so hung up on EMP that you have failed to see that it's not the only ammo type with damage reduction, Phased plasma got it too while Nuclear and Carbonized Lead (the 2 longest range types) do more damage than their counter parts. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:28:00 - [8] Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 18:29:33 You don't get it do you? Damage types have NOTHING to do with how CCP balanced it. Btw as long as you keep using base resists you have no point, because no ship you meet not even npc will have those resist. Try using that Phased Plasma against a caldari t2 ship and see how well you do. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

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