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Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:01:00 - [1] First of all, if you are an Amarr concerned about lasers, please don't derail this thread. I realize there are issues with lasers, and yes something needs to be done. This is not the topic of this thread (even though I digress a bit into them at the end too). Now, to the issue at hand. Tbh this is quite a no-brainer. It is obvious even at first glance. The two highest damage large energy and large hybrid ammos have 48 and 44 damage respectively, while high damage projectiles have 44 and 40. Not only that, but the top one (EMP) spreads its already low damage over three damage types, and the two main ones of those (EM and exp) are the naturally highest resists on armor and shield tanks respectively. Essentially making the high end ammo very inefficient. There is a certain degree of versatility associated with it, but I don't think that justifies the horrible DPS disadvantage. I played a bit with excel, normalizing all non-faction ships utilizing large and medium weapons according to weapons slots and weapon damage/rof bonuses, and it does paint a rather bleak picture for projectiles using EMP versus other weapons using high damage T1 ammo: On the battleship level using EMP L with 44 damage, I get the following: Rails: 22% better dps than Arty. Beams: 49% better dps than Arty. Cruise: 3% worse dps than Arty Blasters: 41% better dps than ACs Pulses: 27% better dps than ACs Torps: 0.02% worse damage than ACs. On the cruiser level using EMP M with 22 damage, I get: Rails: 4% better dps than Arty Beams: 31% better dps than Arty Heavyies: 22% better dps than Arty Blasters: 20% better dps than ACs Pulses: 12% better dps than ACs HAMs: 14% better damage than ACs Now granted arties have a higher alpha-strike, but with all the HP boosts this has become a rather negligible advantage, while the DPS disadvantage is quite steep in some cases. So I would suggest that EMP is ramped up to 48 damage (don't really care which damage type you add), switch around PP and Fusion so fusion becomes the 37.5% range ammo, and give fusion +4 exp damage so it gets 44 total. The above comparison, with EMP doing 48/24 damage: Battleships: Rails: 12% better dps than Arty. Beams: 36% better dps than Arty. Cruise: 11% worse dps than Arty Blasters: 29% better dps than ACs Pulses: 16% better dps than ACs Torps: 8% worse damage than ACs. On the cruiser level using EMP M with 22 damage, I get: Rails: 5% worse dps than Arty (too many caldari railboats with opt bonus, not the guns fault) Beams: 20% better dps than Arty Heavyies: 12% better dps than Arty Blasters: 10% better dps than ACs Pulses: 2% better dps than ACs HAMs: 5% better damage than ACs Keep in mind the performance of large missiles is affected much more by the crappy slot layout of the phoon than the preformance of large projectiles is, since there is only one other missile battleship while there are two other projectile ones. And of course missiles always hit, so a bit less DPS ain't so bad there. Conclusion 1: Even with the boost, Projectiles would still lag behind on DPS. Especially on the main gunships, these results are diluted a bit by recons and stuff with few gun hardpoints and only one bonus. But the gap would be closed a little, and projectiles do still have the advantage of not using cap to make up for the lack of DPS. Also, T2 projectile ammo does not suffer a damage reduction in comparison to the other gun ammo either, so why should T1? Conclusion 2: Medium pulses seem to be in need of a slight boost. Conclusion 3: Off topic, but I noticed Focused Medium Beams being a whacking 20% worse than Heavy Beams. That is an awful gap and could use some closing too (i.e. boost Focused Medium Beams). --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Arx Impera Amarr Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:23:00 - [2] They dont use cap? As far as I see, its balanced in the way that Lasers get a nice damage gap, but are cap monsters and arent exaclty the best damage types... Hybrids also consume cap, and ammo, thus get a boost to offset and rely more on the dps then alpha. Missiles, like you said, arent much far from the projectiles, being how they both dont have cap usage and have their knacks (sig radius vs tracking). Projectiles have all damage types avaliable, and in the case of arties, are all about alpha, not dps. Bottom line is, did you include cap usage in your calculations or alpha vs dps? Because it doesnt seem as cut and dry as simple dps comparisons. ...who of course promptly went bat****, flipped out and killed some people.
Altrex Stoppel SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:40:00 - [3] Yea it's really not that bad with the arties having Alpha Strike and the ACs having their awsome falloff. Plus using no cap is a great bonus. Some lasers may need a boost though I agree.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 18:55:36 Use a fusion shells in your formula and remember most matar ships have dmg and rof bonus. -Edit- Then put it agenst the normal omni tank: EM: 70 KN/TH: 60 EX: 40
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.02 19:52:00 - [5] errr.... -EM is the lowest resistance for sheilds. -Explosive is the weakest for armor. Projectiles is the one weapon that's graced with high damage ammo hitting on both of the above damages. So like what's the problem?
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.04.02 19:58:00 - [6] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan errr.... -EM is the lowest resistance for sheilds. -Explosive is the weakest for armor. Projectiles is the one weapon that's graced with high damage ammo hitting on both of the above damages. So like what's the problem? I think what you are looking for is the word "average". If you do 32 damage (16 em/16 expl) on something with 0% EM resist and 60%expl resist, it's the same as doing that damage normalized against 30% resist. However, this is not bad neither good. If anything, the base damage could be increased... Because matari mostly fight in falloff and that already decreases their damage a lot. Then again, I almost exclusively fly matari, so I might be slightly biased. N.F.F. Recruitment
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 20:21:00 - [7] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: AKULA UrQuan errr.... -EM is the lowest resistance for sheilds. -Explosive is the weakest for armor. Projectiles is the one weapon that's graced with high damage ammo hitting on both of the above damages. So like what's the problem? I think what you are looking for is the word "average". If you do 32 damage (16 em/16 expl) on something with 0% EM resist and 60%expl resist, it's the same as doing that damage normalized against 30% resist. However, this is not bad neither good. If anything, the base damage could be increased... Because matari mostly fight in falloff and that already decreases their damage a lot. Then again, I almost exclusively fly matari, so I might be slightly biased. Also once you count in ship bonus amarrian ships most of the times have the weaknest weapons and their long range weapons are the shortest but their short range is the longest, something is wrong there, amarr should have the longest ranges
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 20:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: AKULA UrQuan errr.... -EM is the lowest resistance for sheilds. -Explosive is the weakest for armor. Projectiles is the one weapon that's graced with high damage ammo hitting on both of the above damages. So like what's the problem? I think what you are looking for is the word "average". If you do 32 damage (16 em/16 expl) on something with 0% EM resist and 60%expl resist, it's the same as doing that damage normalized against 30% resist. However, this is not bad neither good. If anything, the base damage could be increased... Because matari mostly fight in falloff and that already decreases their damage a lot. Then again, I almost exclusively fly matari, so I might be slightly biased. Also once you count in ship bonus amarrian ships most of the times have the weaknest weapons and their long range weapons are the shortest but their short range is the longest, something is wrong there, amarr should have the longest ranges
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.04.02 20:30:00 - [9] Well, that might be true, but this thread is about projectiles, not lasers... N.F.F. Recruitment
Megan Maynard Minmatar RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:07:00 - [10] It's called balance.....................some people in this game don't want any of it apparently. (Haulers with sub 7 second get to warp times, boosting caldari, and nerfing nos come to mind.) Projectile has every damage type, that is it's advantage. It is diverse like the minmatar. So it's drawback is that it isn't strong in any one damage type. This is for BALANCE. B-A-L-A-N-C-E. Work on your skills and quit whining.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: AKULA UrQuan errr.... -EM is the lowest resistance for sheilds. -Explosive is the weakest for armor. Projectiles is the one weapon that's graced with high damage ammo hitting on both of the above damages. So like what's the problem? I think what you are looking for is the word "average". If you do 32 damage (16 em/16 expl) on something with 0% EM resist and 60%expl resist, it's the same as doing that damage normalized against 30% resist. However, this is not bad neither good. If anything, the base damage could be increased... Because matari mostly fight in falloff and that already decreases their damage a lot. Then again, I almost exclusively fly matari, so I might be slightly biased. Also once you count in ship bonus amarrian ships most of the times have the weaknest weapons and their long range weapons are the shortest but their short range is the longest, something is wrong there, amarr should have the longest ranges NO!!! (see how mad you've made me, I only ever normally use 1 "!"). Amarr are meant to be mid range. Caldari are the long range ones. Gallente are the short range ones. And like usual, Minmatar is the jack. Back on topic. I don't think that projectiles really need a damage boost although a small one would be nice (especially as I'm starting to spec in minny ships).
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:23:00 - [12] Projectile have better long range ammo but worse short range. Some people thing that is a balance. But sicne high damage ones are much more used.. its not. Antimatter is far better than EM, mostly because EM is too spread damage type. If the xplosive damage on it was converted to EM at least would be usefull as an anti shield ammo. For now fusoin and plasma are better. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:32:00 - [13] Projectiles use no cap and I don't think you're taking into account the fact that the big Matari gunboats (Rupture, Tempest) get a double damage bonus. Alpha strike still counts for a lot in fleet combat.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:53:00 - [14] only reason i said anything about amarr is because the op said they had better weapons. As for aldari being best at range, yes in the end but pre bonus amarr should be clearly best. As for matar dmg, add in the dual bonus onto most you would get higher then amarr lasers and exsteme fall offs but with high tracking meaning you can track prey better even after it goes into falloff ranges.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:58:00 - [15] Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 21:54:13 Originally by: Vincent Almasy only reason i said anything about amarr is because the op said they had better weapons. As for aldari being best at range, yes in the end but pre bonus amarr should be clearly best. As for matar dmg, add in the dual bonus onto most you would get higher then amarr lasers and exsteme fall offs but with high tracking meaning you can track prey better even after it goes into falloff ranges. Why should they be best pre bonus when they are meant to be a mid range race?
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:03:00 - [16] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:03:02 Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 21:54:13 Originally by: Vincent Almasy only reason i said anything about amarr is because the op said they had better weapons. As for aldari being best at range, yes in the end but pre bonus amarr should be clearly best. As for matar dmg, add in the dual bonus onto most you would get higher then amarr lasers and exsteme fall offs but with high tracking meaning you can track prey better even after it goes into falloff ranges. Why should they be best pre bonus when they are meant to be a mid range race? how about because they mostly don't have a damage bonus for one. and for two, as most PvP is armor tanked a atleast EM: 60% dmg resists before anything else. That aswell as alot of cap use.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:20:00 - [17] Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 22:16:30 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:09:23 Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:07:36 Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:03:02 Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 21:54:13 Originally by: Vincent Almasy only reason i said anything about amarr is because the op said they had better weapons. As for aldari being best at range, yes in the end but pre bonus amarr should be clearly best. As for matar dmg, add in the dual bonus onto most you would get higher then amarr lasers and exsteme fall offs but with high tracking meaning you can track prey better even after it goes into falloff ranges. Why should they be best pre bonus when they are meant to be a mid range race? how about because they mostly don't have a damage bonus for one. and for two, as most PvP is armor tanked a atleast EM: 60% dmg resists before anything else. That aswell as alot of cap use. -EDIT- Also blasters do more. Check neutron blaster cannon w/ antimatter vs Mega Pulse w/ multifrequency I meant why should they be best at range before bonuses. Also megapulse can shoot out to something like 50km whereas blaster reaches bout 15km.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Leandro Salazar On the battleship level using EMP L with 44 damage, I get the following: Rails: 22% better dps than Arty. Beams: 49% better dps than Arty. And now... Add minmatar +5% damage and +5% ROF Add gallante +5% damage Add amarr...err...scratch that. heureka! They're all pretty much the same. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Rodge Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:48:00 - [19] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Leandro Salazar On the battleship level using EMP L with 44 damage, I get the following: Rails: 22% better dps than Arty. Beams: 49% better dps than Arty. And now... Add minmatar +5% damage and +5% ROF Add gallante +5% damage Add amarr...err...scratch that. heureka! They're all pretty much the same. Except both the Rails and Beams eat up a considerable amount of cap! Maybe a projectile short range ammo nerf is needed..... Sig inappropriate-not eve related -Abdalion [ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 22:16:30 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:09:23 Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:07:36 Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:03:02 Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 21:54:13 Originally by: Vincent Almasy only reason i said anything about amarr is because the op said they had better weapons. As for aldari being best at range, yes in the end but pre bonus amarr should be clearly best. As for matar dmg, add in the dual bonus onto most you would get higher then amarr lasers and exsteme fall offs but with high tracking meaning you can track prey better even after it goes into falloff ranges. Why should they be best pre bonus when they are meant to be a mid range race? how about because they mostly don't have a damage bonus for one. and for two, as most PvP is armor tanked a atleast EM: 60% dmg resists before anything else. That aswell as alot of cap use. -EDIT- Also blasters do more. Check neutron blaster cannon w/ antimatter vs Mega Pulse w/ multifrequency I meant why should they be best at range before bonuses. Also megapulse can shoot out to something like 50km whereas blaster reaches bout 15km. Because lasers use horrible amounts of cap, require lots of grid(and before you start in on the whole amarr ships have more pg! thing, actually try to fit the ships, say heavy pulse harbinger vs ac hurricane for example), have norrible tracking. Not to mention whats the point of mid range combat? Last time I checked warp scrams were 20km, not 50. And having a long range ammo with 90% EM damage and the prevelance of omni-armor tanks means amarr also do the least amount of damage, despite all their drawbacks.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 22:16:30 Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:09:23 Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:07:36 Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 22:03:02 Originally by: Morreia Edited by: Morreia on 02/04/2007 21:54:13 Originally by: Vincent Almasy only reason i said anything about amarr is because the op said they had better weapons. As for aldari being best at range, yes in the end but pre bonus amarr should be clearly best. As for matar dmg, add in the dual bonus onto most you would get higher then amarr lasers and exsteme fall offs but with high tracking meaning you can track prey better even after it goes into falloff ranges. Why should they be best pre bonus when they are meant to be a mid range race? how about because they mostly don't have a damage bonus for one. and for two, as most PvP is armor tanked a atleast EM: 60% dmg resists before anything else. That aswell as alot of cap use. -EDIT- Also blasters do more. Check neutron blaster cannon w/ antimatter vs Mega Pulse w/ multifrequency I meant why should they be best at range before bonuses. Also megapulse can shoot out to something like 50km whereas blaster reaches bout 15km. Because lasers use horrible amounts of cap, require lots of grid(and before you start in on the whole amarr ships have more pg! thing, actually try to fit the ships, say heavy pulse harbinger vs ac hurricane for example), have norrible tracking. Not to mention whats the point of mid range combat? Last time I checked warp scrams were 20km, not 50. And having a long range ammo with 90% EM damage and the prevelance of omni-armor tanks means amarr also do the least amount of damage, despite all their drawbacks. Please just don't try the whole oh you have no experience in amarr, go and try fitting them thing. I don't care what else needs to be done to fix them (IMHO not that huge an amount) but they do not need to have the longets range long range guns. Mid range can be useful in certain situations. Admitidly once you get to BS it becomes less useful but that is a whole other problem. The fast is ammar are meant to be mid range. Their damage at certain ranges isn't a huge amount worse than other turrets either. Its just the omni tank and the fact no-one uses sheild tanks in Pvp which has screwed them over slightly. Anyways this thread wasn't meant to become bout lasers. I would love to see projectiles get more damage but mainly because I love porjectiles so much.
Christopher Dalran Gallente Deadly Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.02 23:09:00 - [22] Why does everyone keeping insisting that NOBODY shield tanks so thats why amarr sucks? Personally i run into PLENTY of shield tanked ships. Are we sure its not just that as amaar we only notice the armor tanked ones because they are problematic for lasers and the shield tankers escape memory? Now as for AC's i'm sure this is highly redundant but there are far more things to consider than simply DPS. We need to take into account cap usage (0 dps if you cant fire your guns), range, variable damage types, ect. Strictly speaking If were going to be doing DPS off a stationary targets in Optimal ranges (which is what all of this is) then the weapons are going to look seriously unbalanced because Poor traking is not being taken into account for the large slow tracking guns and The larger range on the AC's (over say blasters) is not going to show because your not taking into account that ships can be help outside blaster but inside AC range. There is just far too much to consider for anything like this to even be remotely accurate. ------------------------------- C.D's Formula for success ------------------------------- Credit Card = Game Time Card Gametime Card = ISK Therefore Credit Card = ISK.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.02 23:32:00 - [23] The only thing I'd really like to see is the damage on EMP weighted a little more heavily toward EM. I wouldn't change the total damage at all. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:28:00 - [24] shield tank means limited mids which means limited e-war. Because of limit e-war it makes it less effective most of the time. Warp jammer, webber, injector, and for close range ships MWD/AD, so how much space does that leave for shield tanking?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:39:00 - [25] To be honest, EMP does suck. It is basically useless for day to day operations and only good at shooting Caldari tech 2 ships that shield tank[there are some rook builds that armor tank], or Caldari ships that armor tank and is pretty much worse at shooting anything else compared to phased plasma [or in the case of the caldari armor tank, fusion] And i mean anything else, seriously, im not joking, run the numbers, its terrible. It should probably get a base 1 damage increase[for small, med is 2, large is 4] and this increase should be either in explosive damage or EM damage. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:46:00 - [26] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 00:43:31 Hey guys, cut the amarr talk, this is about EMP ammo sucking, and really, it does. ed: But you should not be looking at other weapon systems to compare it to, because that will give you a skewed result because it doesnt take into account the ability to change damage types and the amount of damage you do against armor that is actualy hardened. You should be looking at damage differences between the similar ammos. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:53:00 - [27] The DPS issue really isn't that bad when considering medium weapons. It's only when you hit large weapons when Matari DPS becomes stupidly low in comparison to the other races. Large projectiles in general need a boost. Medium and small projectiles are fine. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Goumindong To be honest, EMP does suck. It is basically useless for day to day operations and only good at shooting Caldari tech 2 ships that shield tank[there are some rook builds that armor tank], or Caldari ships that armor tank and is pretty much worse at shooting anything else compared to phased plasma [or in the case of the caldari armor tank, fusion] And i mean anything else, seriously, im not joking, run the numbers, its terrible. It should probably get a base 1 damage increase[for small, med is 2, large is 4] and this increase should be either in explosive damage or EM damage. So merely weighting it more toward EM still wouldn't be enough to make it useful in more situations compared to PP? Say, 7 EM, 3 EX, 1 KN base? Actually this reminds me of another thing: it's always bothered me that Fusion isn't the most damaging proj. ammo, seeing as how explosive is the native Minni damage type. There's probably a good reason for it, but I'm not sure what it is. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:11:00 - [29] Originally by: dalman added There is also more of a real reason for this, that most aren't aware of, but it's very logical. Projectile shortrange ammo do less damage than the others, projectile long do more damage than the others. Now look at the bonus/penalty to range: It says optimal range. And projectiles has much greater falloff than the others. Projectiles aren't hurt as much by the range penalty on EMP, hence get lower damage. Projectile don't benefit as much by the range bonus on long range ammo, hence they get higher damage. If you think about that, it all makes perfect sense. Once upon a time the above where both true and balanced but that was before the addition of t2 ammo which screwed up the balance. Long range ammo has been completely surpassed by long range t2 ammo making any advantage here worthless but on the other hand you could say that this is balanced out by the fact that short range t2 projectile ammo does not suffer the damage loss emp has. The above means that minmatar has become better at short range and worse at long range compared to the other races and how they used to be. Wonder if that was really intended. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Goumindong To be honest, EMP does suck. It is basically useless for day to day operations and only good at shooting Caldari tech 2 ships that shield tank[there are some rook builds that armor tank], or Caldari ships that armor tank and is pretty much worse at shooting anything else compared to phased plasma [or in the case of the caldari armor tank, fusion] And i mean anything else, seriously, im not joking, run the numbers, its terrible. It should probably get a base 1 damage increase[for small, med is 2, large is 4] and this increase should be either in explosive damage or EM damage. So merely weighting it more toward EM still wouldn't be enough to make it useful in more situations compared to PP? Say, 7 EM, 3 EX, 1 KN base? Actually this reminds me of another thing: it's always bothered me that Fusion isn't the most damaging proj. ammo, seeing as how explosive is the native Minni damage type. There's probably a good reason for it, but I'm not sure what it is. Fusion is the most damaging tech 1 minnie ammo against armor. And weighting it towards EM would have an effect of making it stronger against shields and weaker against armor. Which might do the trick. Phased plasma would be the all around ammo, fusion the armor ammo, and emp the shield ammo. Originally by: Wrayeth The DPS issue really isn't that bad when considering medium weapons. It's only when you hit large weapons when Matari DPS becomes stupidly low in comparison to the other races. Large projectiles in general need a boost. Medium and small projectiles are fine. Base Shield Damage: Phased Plasma 30.4* Base Shield Damage: Multifrequency 44 Base Armor Damage: Multifrequency 24.2 Base Armor Damage: Fusion 34.8 Differences. Multifrequency is 44% stronger against shields Fusion is 43.8% stronger against armor. Seems fairly balanced to me, i dont see a DPS descrepency there, especialy when ACs track so much better than lasers and have such strong falloff. Antimatter is 32.8 and 34.0 DPS respectivly, which is only a small boost over fusion/phased plasma. When you start to add in racial resists this gets even worse for amarr and gallente[as kin is weak on ac ammo, EMP isnt really usefull, and caldari dont armor tank often, but when they do you can use fusion] You will find their raw DPS to be at about reasonable levels in comparison. Tech 2 closes these gaps against armor making Minnie the best by a large margin, against shields Amarr becomes clearly superior, and gallente becomes superior all around. *Emp is actualy 2.6% better than phased plasma against shields, its just that unless you are fighting amarr or caldari you wont want to be using it anyway, and against amarr armor tanks phased plasma outperforms EMP at all ranges and agaisnt Caldari ships they wont be armor tanking anyway, and are more likly to be fitting a specific EM hardener. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:32:00 - [31] I'm sorry to say, Goum, but you're wrong. I don't know if you actually PvP or are just a theorist, but I can tell you with certainty that Gallente blasterboats kill stuff a LOT faster than Matari AC boats. If what you're saying was accurate, that would not be the case. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Goumindong So merely weighting it more toward EM still wouldn't be enough to make it useful in more situations compared to PP? Say, 7 EM, 3 EX, 1 KN base? Actually this reminds me of another thing: it's always bothered me that Fusion isn't the most damaging proj. ammo, seeing as how explosive is the native Minni damage type. There's probably a good reason for it, but I'm not sure what it is. Fusion is the most damaging tech 1 minnie ammo against armor. And weighting it towards EM would have an effect of making it stronger against shields and weaker against armor. Which might do the trick. Phased plasma would be the all around ammo, fusion the armor ammo, and emp the shield ammo. Yeah, that seems like a sensible breakdown to me. Probably too sensible to be likely of happening though. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:48:00 - [33] Originally by: Wrayeth I'm sorry to say, Goum, but you're wrong. I don't know if you actually PvP or are just a theorist, but I can tell you with certainty that Gallente blasterboats kill stuff a LOT faster than Matari AC boats. If what you're saying was accurate, that would not be the case. Depends on what the Matari AC boat is fitting and what the Gallente blaster boat is fitting. For instance Matari VS Gallente > web range. Matari does more DPS Matari vs Gallente < web range. Gallente does more DPS Matari vs Amarr< 15km. Matari does more DPSs Amarr vs Gallente> 15km. Amarr does more dps. Fit up a shield tanked tempest with 3 gyrostabs and sitck hail in there. You will rip through armor like it wasnt there. Also works on a Maelstrom[3 falloff rigs prefered, 858 dps with guns raw + 252.8 DPS of drones] Hail does 23% more damage against armor than Void does, so that is equivelent to 1055 DPS from guns from a blaster ship. Which would mean a 1371 DPS Megathron or a 1307 DPS Hyperion] The Hyperion, which gets the closest in gun DPS will hit 1006 dps with max skills and will have a 3 slot tank[the above Maelstrom will hit to 50km+ with barrage and have a 4-5 slot tank]. That same megathron will be aboug 174 DPS off the mark and will fit a 4 slot tank[with no tanking bonus] That is assuming these things fit full neutron racks of couse, which is a bit unrealistic. A shield tanked tempest will put out more absolute DPS[launchers + 1 extra drone] but wont tank as well Minnie ships can be set up to be absolute beasts at putting out damage. The fact that you dont do so doesnt have anything to do with their ability to. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:05:00 - [34] Edited by: Wrayeth on 03/04/2007 02:01:53 Originally by: Goumindong Depends on what the Matari AC boat is fitting and what the Gallente blaster boat is fitting. For instance Matari VS Gallente > web range. Matari does more DPS Actually, not true. Because the Matari ship is fighting so far into falloff, it misses a lot and hit quality is poor. With barrage vs. null and also taking drones into account, a blasterthron has the DPS advantage over an AC tempest out to 24km. Naughty Boy ran the numbers on that a couple months back. EDIT: Coincidentally, 24km is the max scramble range of the warp disruptor II. :P Quote: Matari vs Gallente < web range. Gallente does more DPS By a huge amount. Quote: Matari vs Amarr< 15km. Matari does more DPSs Come again? The numbers say otherwise. Quote: Fit up a shield tanked tempest with 3 gyrostabs and sitck hail in there. You will rip through armor like it wasnt there. Unfortunately, this will just result in the death of your ship. When shield tanking, you don't have the mids free to run a MWD. Thus, you cannot control the engagement range and will die to the first passing blasterboat. Moreover, you can't scramble while shield tanking, either. Quote: Also works on a Maelstrom[3 falloff rigs prefered, 858 dps with guns raw + 252.8 DPS of drones] It is possible on a maelstrom, but the maelstrom doesn't have the traditional Matari speed advantage. Hence, it will be difficult to maintain range. Also, it can run either a web or a scrambler: pick one. Quote: Hail does 23% more damage against armor than Void does, so that is equivelent to 1055 DPS from guns from a blaster ship. Which would mean a 1371 DPS Megathron or a 1307 DPS Hyperion] Would you care to run the numbers on Matari ships vs. Gallente ships vs. shields? I thought not. Armor is not the be-all and end-all. Quote: The Hyperion, which gets the closest in gun DPS will hit 1006 dps with max skills and will have a 3 slot tank[the above Maelstrom will hit to 50km+ with barrage and have a 4-5 slot tank]. That same megathron will be aboug 174 DPS off the mark and will fit a 4 slot tank[with no tanking bonus] The hyperion can do more than 1000 DPS while running a 4-slot tank. You may want to recheck your numbers. The same with the mega while it's running a 5-slot tank. Quote: That is assuming these things fit full neutron racks of couse, which is a bit unrealistic. Not at all. I have a number of friends who fit full neutron setups. They own anything they come up against 1-v-1 unless they get jammed/damped. Quote: A shield tanked tempest will put out more absolute DPS[launchers + 1 extra drone] but wont tank as well Not true. A tempest is not even in the same ballpark as a gankathron. Quote: Minnie ships can be set up to be absolute beasts at putting out damage. The fact that you dont do so doesnt have anything to do with their ability to. The only Matari battleship capable of putting out truly beastly damage with a setup that can be used in real PvP is the maelstrom, and it can't run both a web and a scrambler at the same time. It also doesn't have any more speed than the other races' battleships. Thus, despite having an awesome damage output, it still falls far short in terms of overall combat capability. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:08:00 - [35] minmatar is ment to be the quick light hitter race with mass damage guns at range, consider the ac battleships with 55km range.. and the artis.. dude minmatar got it good from where im standing
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:17:00 - [36] Edited by: Wrayeth on 03/04/2007 02:14:41 Originally by: Tista minmatar is ment to be the quick light hitter race with mass damage guns at range, consider the ac battleships with 55km range.. Funny how no one ever mentions the range of pulses with 3 optimal rigs. Plus, 55km means nothing unless you have a 55km scrambler. As I've never seen one of those, I fail to understand how that helps you. Quote: and the artis.. dude minmatar got it good from where im standing Artillery? You're calling artillery one of the benefits of being Minmtar? Please tell me you're joking. Large artillery sucks. It might be okay if it could hold more than 10 rounds of EMP, quake, or tremor, but the already low DPS of artillery is lowered further still by the fact that you can only fire a few shots before having to reload. Burst damage? I have one thing to say about that: "lol". With all of the hitpoint boosts, the burst damage that was supposed to be the huge plus that makes artillery worth using has become quite unimpressive. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:24:00 - [37] u suck as a mini pilot then, aim is to get ur ship faster than ur foe, orbit outa range with 20km scrammer and shoost them. lemme give you and example: wolf: 4 200mm with emp 1 mwd 1 20km scrammer 2 gyro II 2 cap regen things basicly you orbit your target at 15km and just blast away until you're satisfied. or how about stabber: 4 220- emp 2 HAM- therm mwd scrammer cap regen 1 gyro 1 bcu 1 i-stab again orbit at 15km and blast away until your content. see it's not hard.. is it?
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:26:00 - [38] or how about a differnt approach: ruppy: 4 artis-emp 2 nos mwd webber 20km scrammer 2 gyro 1 rep 3 hardner web foe, scram foe, shoost foe.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Morreia Please just don't try the whole oh you have no experience in amarr, go and try fitting them thing. Its a valid point. Downgrading lasers incur the largest penalty of any gun types, while ACs have barely noticable dps(3%) and range(same falloff, like 20% less optimal) decrease along with a huge fittings decrease. Quote: Mid range can be useful in certain situations. Admitidly once you get to BS it becomes less useful but that is a whole other problem. You're completely wrong. Pulses only get the "mid range" status once you hit the BS level. What good is a 25km ranged pulse on cruisers when your counterpart can close the distance in less than 10 seconds? On the BS level you can get 50km range pulses, which have limited uses in mid sized gang engagements, because you can switch targets instantly and put your dps on him where as a blasterboat has to close first. ACs do as well but to a less extent. Quote: The fast is ammar are meant to be mid range. Their damage at certain ranges isn't a huge amount worse than other turrets either. Its just the omni tank and the fact no-one uses sheild tanks in Pvp which has screwed them over slightly. Amarr ships have the worst fitting problems, their guns use the most cap, have the worst tracking, their "range advantage" is pretty much worthless except within a narrowly defined situation, and they do the least DPS. Amarr ships also have the worst flexibility and next to no EW ability outside the 2 recons. "Slight problem" indeed. Quote: Anyways this thread wasn't meant to become bout lasers. I would love to see projectiles get more damage but mainly because I love porjectiles so much. Its called game balance.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 03:58:00 - [40] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 03:54:03 Originally by: Wrayeth Actually, not true. Because the Matari ship is fighting so far into falloff, it misses a lot and hit quality is poor. With barrage vs. null and also taking drones into account, a blasterthron has the DPS advantage over an AC tempest out to 24km. Naughty Boy ran the numbers on that a couple months back. EDIT: Coincidentally, 24km is the max scramble range of the warp disruptor II. :P False, above web range, if the Minmatar is fighting in falloff, the Gallente is fighting in deeper falloff. Much deeper falloff. Your numbers are for pre-kali null, and are as such wrong. They also dont figure that a minmatar BS can fit 3 projectile rigs on their highest damage gun and still have room to spare. I just gave you the numbers, with Hail a Maelstrom which has 15km falloff with the hail does 850 dps, a Megathron does about 880 DPS. Quote: Quote: Matari vs Gallente < web range. Gallente does more DPS By a huge amount. Not really, no. See above. Megathron 1196 full gank, Maelstrom 1110 full gank AND tank. 86 DPS is not that much. When you do > 1k dps. Quote: Quote: Matari vs Amarr< 15km. Matari does more DPSs Come again? The numbers say otherwise. No, they really dont. Geddon = Highest Damage Amarr ship. Mega Pulse = 1.11 800 repeating 7x1.11 = 7.77 800 repeating. Maelstrom DPS = 858 makes total Amarr dps 1149 DPS.If you ignore tracking, below 10km the optimal range and fallof penalties are almost non-existant. Quote: Unfortunately, this will just result in the death of your ship. When shield tanking, you don't have the mids free to run a MWD. Thus, you cannot control the engagement range and will die to the first passing blasterboat. Moreover, you can't scramble while shield tanking, either. Gank ships are for ganking, not for solo work. Tank > Gank for solo work. A shield tanked Tempest has 3 slots to work with + a DC. The same number of slots as a gank megathron. Quote: It is possible on a maelstrom, but the maelstrom doesn't have the traditional Matari speed advantage. Hence, it will be difficult to maintain range. Also, it can run either a web or a scrambler: pick one. Bring friends. I am sorry you dont have friends. Quote: The hyperion can do more than 1000 DPS while running a 4-slot tank. You may want to recheck your numbers. The same with the mega while it's running a 5-slot tank. Guns only. The Hyperion has to hit 1050 gun DPS in order to match the armor damage of the Maelstrom. It does not. Quote: Not at all. I have a number of friends who fit full neutron setups. They own anything they come up against 1-v-1 unless they get jammed/damped. Your friends are liars. A decent domi, Hyperion, or even a laser abaddon will tank all the damage you put out[1600 DPS tanks roughly on the Hyp/Abaddon] and then kill you. Quote: Not true. A tempest is not even in the same ballpark as a gankathron. A tempest does 5% less gun damage than a Maelstrom in full-gank mode and has 1 less drone. remember how i just showed you the gank-a-thron dps only 80 over the maelstroms? Lose the 60 from the Add two missile launchers[133 DPS with 2 BCU and accepting a DCU] and what do you get? Why you get a Tempest with about 10 less DPS than a Gank-a-thron. Quote: The only Matari battleship capable of putting out truly beastly damage with a setup that can be used in real PvP is the maelstrom, and it can't run both a web and a scrambler at the same time. It also doesn't have any more speed than the other races' battleships. Thus, despite having an awesome damage output, it still falls far short in terms of overall combat capability. So can the tempest ;) And with a 50km falloff with barrage, 30km with phased plasma and 15km with hail and a 1000 DPS tank on EM, its lowest resist, it doesnt really need to dictate range. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.03 07:56:00 - [41] The the people saying 'now take into account the damage/rof bonuses', if you had actually read more than just the title you would know I already DID that. The numbers I present factor in the average damage and RoF bonuses of all ships using said weapons as main weapons, as well was the average number of turret/missile slots available on all these ships. And why did I know this would degenerate into an Amarr fight even though I did not want that? Anyway, if EMP is really fine and balanced being so much weaker than the other high damage ammos, does that not in return mean that Hail, doing the same damage as other high damage T2 ammos and only spreading it about two damage types, is terribly overpowered and needs a nerf? --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Chavu The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.03 08:16:00 - [42] You are all making this much more complicated than it is. The OP is not comparing optimal range, falloff, cap usage, tracking, or ammo capacity. Just dps and base ammo damage. If you want to discuss the other statisitcs in guns, ok but you'll find it a big mix of positives and negatives, and if you think ANY minmatar ship gets the dps quickfit says you are living in a dream world, falloff is a blessing and a curse. I find it VERY interesting that Cruises/Torps do damage comparable to minmatar guns. I always see people saying that missiles are worthless for dps. I always suspected this was all lies, and it looks like it is. Missiles can jack up a tackled target just fine.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.03 08:20:00 - [43] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Morreia Please just don't try the whole oh you have no experience in amarr, go and try fitting them thing. Its a valid point. Downgrading lasers incur the largest penalty of any gun types, while ACs have barely noticable dps(3%) and range(same falloff, like 20% less optimal) decrease along with a huge fittings decrease. I was saying this because I do have experience with fittng amarr ships. Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Morreia Mid range can be useful in certain situations. Admitidly once you get to BS it becomes less useful but that is a whole other problem. You're completely wrong. Pulses only get the "mid range" status once you hit the BS level. What good is a 25km ranged pulse on cruisers when your counterpart can close the distance in less than 10 seconds? On the BS level you can get 50km range pulses, which have limited uses in mid sized gang engagements, because you can switch targets instantly and put your dps on him where as a blasterboat has to close first. ACs do as well but to a less extent. I consider 15km optimal to be mid range byt frig standareds. Compared to BS's this obviously doesn't seem mid ranges but neither do the 30km optimal long range frig guns. Also in that 10 seconds you can have gone through the enemy's sheild and a bit of their armour. (it will realistically take them more than 10 seconds but meh) Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Morreia The fast is ammar are meant to be mid range. Their damage at certain ranges isn't a huge amount worse than other turrets either. Its just the omni tank and the fact no-one uses sheild tanks in Pvp which has screwed them over slightly. Amarr ships have the worst fitting problems, their guns use the most cap, have the worst tracking, their "range advantage" is pretty much worthless except within a narrowly defined situation, and they do the least DPS. Amarr ships also have the worst flexibility and next to no EW ability outside the 2 recons. So your saying be able to instantly change you guns from a 20km optimal to a 50km optimal isn't at all flexible. I also find they're arnge advantage very useful. Admitidly once you get BS it's only useful in gang arfare but its by no means the only thing which is only useful in gang warfare. Originally by: Gamesguy "Slight problem" indeed. Originally by: morreia Anyways this thread wasn't meant to become bout lasers. I would love to see projectiles get more damage but mainly because I love porjectiles so much. Its called game balance. I know, I was justing saying that I would like it because then my favourite ship will be even better.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.03 10:32:00 - [44] In tech 2 ammo Minmatar arre pretty wel placed. No discussion about that. you just need to use range. With T1 ammo the problem is EMP that has split damage type so its very very innefective. Remove the explosive damage and change it to EM and things will be better and more balanced. The only thing I must disagree with goun is... do never comapre DPS of s shield tank ship with an armor tank ship as an example of the weapons being good or bad. Shield tank ships usually have quite good dps advantage since they almost always fit 3 damage mods. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 03:54:03 Originally by: Wrayeth Actually, not true. Because the Matari ship is fighting so far into falloff, it misses a lot and hit quality is poor. With barrage vs. null and also taking drones into account, a blasterthron has the DPS advantage over an AC tempest out to 24km. Naughty Boy ran the numbers on that a couple months back. EDIT: Coincidentally, 24km is the max scramble range of the warp disruptor II. :P False, above web range, if the Minmatar is fighting in falloff, the Gallente is fighting in deeper falloff. Much deeper falloff. Your numbers are for pre-kali null, and are as such wrong. They also dont figure that a minmatar BS can fit 3 projectile rigs on their highest damage gun and still have room to spare. I just gave you the numbers, with Hail a Maelstrom which has 15km falloff with the hail does 850 dps, a Megathron does about 880 DPS. You need to redo your math. Here is the damage graph. The 2 top are with drones and the 2 bottom are without. As you can see the hyperion outdamages the maelstrom out to 23-24km without taking drones into account and out to 28-29 with drones. AC vs Blasters ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:30:00 - [46] Yes misiles hit allways, but dmg is reduced by 2 things, signature radius and speed.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:48:00 - [47] Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 03/04/2007 12:46:19 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 03:54:03 Originally by: Wrayeth Actually, not true. Because the Matari ship is fighting so far into falloff, it misses a lot and hit quality is poor. With barrage vs. null and also taking drones into account, a blasterthron has the DPS advantage over an AC tempest out to 24km. Naughty Boy ran the numbers on that a couple months back. EDIT: Coincidentally, 24km is the max scramble range of the warp disruptor II. :P False, above web range, if the Minmatar is fighting in falloff, the Gallente is fighting in deeper falloff. Much deeper falloff. Your numbers are for pre-kali null, and are as such wrong. They also dont figure that a minmatar BS can fit 3 projectile rigs on their highest damage gun and still have room to spare. I just gave you the numbers, with Hail a Maelstrom which has 15km falloff with the hail does 850 dps, a Megathron does about 880 DPS. You need to redo your math. Here is the damage graph. The 2 top are with drones and the 2 bottom are without. As you can see the hyperion outdamages the maelstrom out to 23-24km without taking drones into account and out to 28-29 with drones. AC vs Blasters Are you sure this graph is correct? Remember maesltrom will always have 3 damage mods. It shoudl do 700 dps with barrage.. WITHOUT drones If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:58:00 - [48] Even more.. 90% of amesltroms will be using 3 fallof rigs. At any medium range the maelstrom will far outdamage any blaster ship with tech 2 ammo. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 13:28:00 - [49] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 13:36:04 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 03:54:03 Originally by: Wrayeth Actually, not true. Because the Matari ship is fighting so far into falloff, it misses a lot and hit quality is poor. With barrage vs. null and also taking drones into account, a blasterthron has the DPS advantage over an AC tempest out to 24km. Naughty Boy ran the numbers on that a couple months back. EDIT: Coincidentally, 24km is the max scramble range of the warp disruptor II. :P False, above web range, if the Minmatar is fighting in falloff, the Gallente is fighting in deeper falloff. Much deeper falloff. Your numbers are for pre-kali null, and are as such wrong. They also dont figure that a minmatar BS can fit 3 projectile rigs on their highest damage gun and still have room to spare. I just gave you the numbers, with Hail a Maelstrom which has 15km falloff with the hail does 850 dps, a Megathron does about 880 DPS. You need to redo your math. Here is the damage graph. The 2 top are with drones and the 2 bottom are without. As you can see the hyperion outdamages the maelstrom out to 23-24km without taking drones into account and out to 28-29 with drones. AC vs Blasters As Kagura has noted, something is horribly wrong with your graph. 1. The Hyperion and the Maelstrom both have a 100 cube drone bay, and neither have a drone bonus. This means that any graph that shows their damage leveling off at different end point must be wrong. You will notice that the lines for "Hyperion(null) t2 ogre" levels off above that of "Maelstrom{barrage) t2 ogres" when the Hyperion has hit full falloff.. Therefore you are discounting the dps of the Maelstrom by at least 62.36 dps. This is the minimum amount of DPS you might be discounting them. You are furthermore discounting the issue which specifically was at hand, which was how much damage was done to armor. This results in a 23% damage bonus for Hail and a 10% damage bonus for barrage in comparision to Void and Null respectivly. Since the assertion was that Gallente destroy ships faster, in order to check this assertion you have to examine the DPS against each tank. While it is clear that against shield tanks, minmatar are behind gallente and Amarr, they are far ahead when shooting at armor. Far far ahead. Which, not suprisingly, was the assertion. ED: That being said, EMP needs a more aggressive EM distribution or more raw DPS. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:04:00 - [50] Sorry I was using an older version from the time in testing when maelstrom had 75m3 drone bay. BUT falloff rigs does almost nothing here, they increase damage out at 40-60km but in this range what matter is damage reduction from falloff of the blasters not the ACs. Also if you are going to add falloff rigs to the maelstrom you need to add resist rigs to the hyperion. Even when using standard tanks, (1x em II + 2x inv field II for mael, 2x ean II + 1x DC II for hyp), having 3 damage mods on the maelstrom and only 2 on the hyperion, 3 falloff rigs on the mael but no rigs at all on the hyperion. The hyperion will STILL outdamage the maelstrom out to 15km. That's with no drones because now adding drones actually matters because lowest resists on the tanks and highest damage for different drones giving the hyperion an even larger advantage. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:26:00 - [51] Originally by: Hoshi Sorry I was using an older version from the time in testing when maelstrom had 75m3 drone bay. BUT falloff rigs does almost nothing here, they increase damage out at 40-60km but in this range what matter is damage reduction from falloff of the blasters not the ACs. Also if you are going to add falloff rigs to the maelstrom you need to add resist rigs to the hyperion. Even when using standard tanks, (1x em II + 2x inv field II for mael, 2x ean II + 1x DC II for hyp), having 3 damage mods on the maelstrom and only 2 on the hyperion, 3 falloff rigs on the mael but no rigs at all on the hyperion. The hyperion will STILL outdamage the maelstrom out to 15km. That's with no drones because now adding drones actually matters because lowest resists on the tanks and highest damage for different drones giving the hyperion an even larger advantage. well the standard tank for a maesltrom is 2 boost Amp II 2 invul II 1 X-Large SB. The hyperion will need the resist rigs just to match this tank. Granted the hyp will have mid slots to play with facny stuff... also.. again.. you remembered to use 3 damage mods on the maesltrom? Sicne every maesltrom flying will have them? While if the hype doe sthat.. it will have a tank so much weaker than the maesltrom, that there won't even be competition on a fight between them. Outdamaging the hype and mega above 15km is already pretty dam good. Under 15km it is blaster territory... further than that and it even.. 20km onwards and projectiles win easily.... Fallof rigs matter because they diminish the dps reduction that your guns would have at 20-30 km. In fact they are far more effective than damage rigs. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:41:00 - [52] Originally by: Hoshi Sorry I was using an older version from the time in testing when maelstrom had 75m3 drone bay. BUT falloff rigs does almost nothing here, they increase damage out at 40-60km but in this range what matter is damage reduction from falloff of the blasters not the ACs. Also if you are going to add falloff rigs to the maelstrom you need to add resist rigs to the hyperion. Even when using standard tanks, (1x em II + 2x inv field II for mael, 2x ean II + 1x DC II for hyp), having 3 damage mods on the maelstrom and only 2 on the hyperion, 3 falloff rigs on the mael but no rigs at all on the hyperion. The hyperion will STILL outdamage the maelstrom out to 15km. That's with no drones because now adding drones actually matters because lowest resists on the tanks and highest damage for different drones giving the hyperion an even larger advantage. Really? Against armor? I seriously doubt it. Considering that Hail does 23% more damage against armor than Void does against Armor or shields[so when comparing with hail and void, boost the hail damage up 23%] And Barrage does 17% more damage than Null against Armor than Null does against shield and 19% more damage against armor than null does against armor. And phased plasma goes 2.6% less damage against shields than Null[which means that Null and EMP are equal in dps against shields]. What this means is that if the target is a shield tank, the Minmatar does worse than the Gallente if the Gallente is using void. If not, its about even. If the target is an armor tank, then there isnt a question, the Minmatar wins. RAW DPS isnt the sole measure of damage, what you need to look for is the DPS against tanks, this is the only reason why EMP is weak, because for the minmatar pilot it has literally no role because it wont out-damage Phased Plasma against the majority of armor tanks and wont outdamage it against shield tanks above a decent falloff[and when it does, its only a 2.6% advantage!] Thus the EMP ammo should be weighted more to EM damage so that minmatar have a shield busting ammo that works. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:52:00 - [53] Originally by: Kagura Nikon well the standard tank for a maesltrom is 2 boost Amp II 2 invul II 1 X-Large SB. The hyperion will need the resist rigs just to match this tank. Granted the hyp will have mid slots to play with facny stuff... also.. again.. you remembered to use 3 damage mods on the maesltrom? Sicne every maesltrom flying will have them? While if the hype doe sthat.. it will have a tank so much weaker than the maesltrom, that there won't even be competition on a fight between them. Outdamaging the hype and mega above 15km is already pretty dam good. Under 15km it is blaster territory... further than that and it even.. 20km onwards and projectiles win easily.... Fallof rigs matter because they diminish the dps reduction that your guns would have at 20-30 km. In fact they are far more effective than damage rigs. Did you even read what I wrote, I stacked everything in the maelstroms favor and it came out lacking. I included 3 damage mods on maelstorm and only 2 on hyperion, I included 3 falloff rigs (which btw at 20km increase the dps by a whopping 6%). I included damage vs tank which you say work so much in the projectile users favor. Btw with the tank you posted above you can't kill a hyperion, that's 5 of the 6 mids, that leaves 1 mid to fit scram/mwd/web/injector all of which a hyperion will have. It means you have no way of controlling range, and/or no way of holding down the target. Because you have no injector the tank will still be better on the hyperion (and no the cap usage of the guns do not eat up all the injected cap). ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Veneth	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:54:00 - [54] Wow it's amazing how a discussion about emp ammo turns into a fight about maelstrom tanks with t2 ammo vs hyperions with t2 ammo. Back to the OP yes as many people have said emp ammo needs a shift in damage from explosive to EM, the triple damage type on Depleted Uranium is nice but I don't think it really fits on EMP
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:02:00 - [55] I would prefer fusion and EMP to get switched around, making fusion raw total damage equal to the other -50% range ammos(12 for small: 8ex, 4ki) and EMP the -25% range ammo(10 for small: 6em, 4ex).
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:25:00 - [56] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 16:22:58 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Kagura Nikon well the standard tank for a maesltrom is 2 boost Amp II 2 invul II 1 X-Large SB. The hyperion will need the resist rigs just to match this tank. Granted the hyp will have mid slots to play with facny stuff... also.. again.. you remembered to use 3 damage mods on the maesltrom? Sicne every maesltrom flying will have them? While if the hype doe sthat.. it will have a tank so much weaker than the maesltrom, that there won't even be competition on a fight between them. Outdamaging the hype and mega above 15km is already pretty dam good. Under 15km it is blaster territory... further than that and it even.. 20km onwards and projectiles win easily.... Fallof rigs matter because they diminish the dps reduction that your guns would have at 20-30 km. In fact they are far more effective than damage rigs. Did you even read what I wrote, I stacked everything in the maelstroms favor and it came out lacking. I included 3 damage mods on maelstorm and only 2 on hyperion, I included 3 falloff rigs (which btw at 20km increase the dps by a whopping 6%). I included damage vs tank which you say work so much in the projectile users favor. Btw with the tank you posted above you can't kill a hyperion, that's 5 of the 6 mids, that leaves 1 mid to fit scram/mwd/web/injector all of which a hyperion will have. It means you have no way of controlling range, and/or no way of holding down the target. Because you have no injector the tank will still be better on the hyperion (and no the cap usage of the guns do not eat up all the injected cap). See, now you are lieing. Against base armor[I.E. Minmatar], a Hail Maelstrom, assuming equal numbers of gyrostabalizers and Mag stabs outdamages a Void Hyperion below 6km and above 9km. The Hail Maelstrom outdamages the Null Hyperion below 12.5km. The Barrage Maelstrom outdamages the Null Hyperion above 15km and is less than 1% away below that. Dont believe me? Stick the numbers into the the tracking guide. Vs Minmatar numbers are above vs Amarr the Viod Hyp wins to 11.25km where the Null Hyp takes over out to 17.5km and then the Barrage Mael runs the rest. There is about a 10% damage benefit at all levels for the Hyperions guns here. Equal number of gyrostabalizers and magnetic field stabs. Vs Gallente, the Hail Maelstrom beats everything to 15km where the Barrage Maelstrom takes over Vs Caldari, its even worse for the Hyp, but its kinda a moot point because there isnt likly to be any strong caldari armor tanks. It looks just like the gallente graph, but worse for the Hyp. Want me to start comparing damage against t2 tanks? Because its not going to get any better from here. Short answer: There is no Gallente damage superiority against minmatar if minmatar so choose to fit for it. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:26:00 - [57] Originally by: Kar Anshral I would prefer fusion and EMP to get switched around, making fusion raw total damage equal to the other -50% range ammos(12 for small: 8ex, 4ki) and EMP the -25% range ammo(10 for small: 6em, 4ex). That doesnt work, because with fusion at a high EX component and at the high raw damage point, it would utterly destroy other ammos more than it already does against armor. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Veneth Wow it's amazing how a discussion about emp ammo turns into a fight about maelstrom tanks with t2 ammo vs hyperions with t2 ammo. While I in some part agree you can not have this discussion without including t2 ammo in it. The reason EMP does less damage than the others where correctly stated by Dalman. Because projectile guns relay less on optimal they will loose less range by choosing short range ammo and they will gain less range by choosing long range ammo. To balance this short range ammo does slight less damage and long range does slight more compared to the other races. This where all balanced and good until t2 ammo came onto the scene. Now the damage advantage of long range ammo is gone because for t2 long range there are no such advantage. And when we look at short range guns projectiles used to be able to do better damage at range mostly because they could always use the short range (but slight less damage) emp even for long range. This meant that if the projectile user could maintain range be could beat blasters but if he couldn't he would loose. BUT then again t2 ammo came and the range at which the projectile user had to be before he could outdamage the blaster user where pushed out so far that it ended up outside scramble range and such where useless. So you can't have this discussion without including t2 ammo because none of the things emp damage where balanced around hold true anymore. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:36:00 - [59] Originally by: Morreia I was saying this because I do have experience with fittng amarr ships. That doesnt excuse the fact that Amarr ships DO have the worst fitting problems, unlike minmatar who can often fit a full rack of guns and a full tank. Originally by: Gamesguy I consider 15km optimal to be mid range byt frig standareds. Compared to BS's this obviously doesn't seem mid ranges but neither do the 30km optimal long range frig guns. You would be wrong, Frigs dont get 15km optimals with scorch, more like 11km. What good is a 11km "mid ranged" gun on frigs when other frigs can close the distance in 3 seconds? Quote: Also in that 10 seconds you can have gone through the enemy's sheild and a bit of their armour. What you fail to mention is then you hit armor, doing next to no damage and get killed by your enemy's superior DPS and damage types. Quote: (it will realistically take them more than 10 seconds but meh) No it wouldnt, a MWD thorax can hit 2km/sec pretty easilly. And thats one of the slowest close range ships. Originally by: Gamesguy So your saying be able to instantly change you guns from a 20km optimal to a 50km optimal isn't at all flexible. Its nowhere near instant, not without a "switch all ammo on all guns" option. And nice of you to ignore all my other points and focus on one little advantage. Thats like comparing a M1A2 to a T72 and saying the T72 wins cause it comes with vodka. Quote: I also find they're arnge advantage very useful. Admitidly once you get BS it's only useful in gang arfare but its by no means the only thing which is only useful in gang warfare. Then you have no idea what you're talking about. The Amarr range advantage on pulses is only significant on BS sized guns, its pretty worthless on anything smaller. There is a reason the Amarr frig and cruiser lineups all uniformly suck unless they use drones as a primary damage type(curse, arbi, etc), or use autocannons and fit supertank(punisher, maller). Harbinger and absolution are exceptions, but even then they're not as good as their counterparts(hurricane, myrmidon, brutix, eos, the same list goes on).
Veneth	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Morreia Its nowhere near instant, not without a "switch all ammo on all guns" option. And nice of you to ignore all my other points and focus on one little advantage. Thats like comparing a M1A2 to a T72 and saying the T72 wins cause it comes with vodka. I've been wanting that ammo swapping option forever..
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:42:00 - [61] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Veneth Wow it's amazing how a discussion about emp ammo turns into a fight about maelstrom tanks with t2 ammo vs hyperions with t2 ammo. While I in some part agree you can not have this discussion without including t2 ammo in it. The reason EMP does less damage than the others where correctly stated by Dalman. Because projectile guns relay less on optimal they will loose less range by choosing short range ammo and they will gain less range by choosing long range ammo. To balance this short range ammo does slight less damage and long range does slight more compared to the other races. This where all balanced and good until t2 ammo came onto the scene. Now the damage advantage of long range ammo is gone because for t2 long range there are no such advantage. And when we look at short range guns projectiles used to be able to do better damage at range mostly because they could always use the short range (but slight less damage) emp even for long range. This meant that if the projectile user could maintain range be could beat blasters but if he couldn't he would loose. BUT then again t2 ammo came and the range at which the projectile user had to be before he could outdamage the blaster user where pushed out so far that it ended up outside scramble range and such where useless. So you can't have this discussion without including t2 ammo because none of the things emp damage where balanced around hold true anymore. EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Hank Showbo Neyi Industries	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:47:00 - [62] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan errr.... -EM is the lowest resistance for sheilds. -Explosive is the weakest for armor. Projectiles is the one weapon that's graced with high damage ammo hitting on both of the above damages. So like what's the problem? Also explosive is rubbish on shield. EMP is rubbish on armour. So it balances it out no? Anyway I use 3 phased plasma and 3 EMP, seems to do a good job tbh.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:56:00 - [63] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: morreia I consider 15km optimal to be mid range byt frig standareds. Compared to BS's this obviously doesn't seem mid ranges but neither do the 30km optimal long range frig guns. You would be wrong, Frigs dont get 15km optimals with scorch, more like 11km. What good is a 11km "mid ranged" gun on frigs when other frigs can close the distance in 3 seconds? Sorry. I was thinking of retributions when I said 15km. And to close that gap any frig apart from an inty with take 5 seconds... in that time about 1k of damage will have been dealt. Also if your gona put it like that what the point in long range guns on frigs unless they have a range bonus because they can close the gap quickly. Whats stoppping the fiting frig flying away from the close range frig. This would mean to close on the retri it would actually take bout 10seconds in which time about 2k of damage will have been dealt. Originally by: gamesguy Originally by: morreia Also in that 10 seconds you can have gone through the enemy's sheild and a bit of their armour. What you fail to mention is then you hit armor, doing next to no damage and get killed by your enemy's superior DPS and damage types. You can still do reasonable damage against armour but what you fail to see is in the frig example by the time they get into firing range your already 1.5k dps ahead of them. Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: morreia So your saying be able to instantly change you guns from a 20km optimal to a 50km optimal isn't at all flexible. Its nowhere near instant, not without a "switch all ammo on all guns" option. And nice of you to ignore all my other points and focus on one little advantage. Thats like comparing a M1A2 to a T72 and saying the T72 wins cause it comes with vodka. Learn to change ammo quicker. Changing ammo on say 6 guns and firing them again should take you about 6 seconds. And if you look I didn't focus on this, I took all your points into account. Originally by: gamesguy Originally by: morreia I also find they're range advantage very useful. Admitidly once you get BS it's only useful in gang warfare but its by no means the only thing which is only useful in gang warfare. Then you have no idea what you're talking about. The Amarr range advantage on pulses is only significant on BS sized guns, its pretty worthless on anything smaller. There is a reason the Amarr frig and cruiser lineups all uniformly suck unless they use drones as a primary damage type(curse, arbi, etc), or use autocannons and fit supertank(punisher, maller). Harbinger and absolution are exceptions, but even then they're not as good as their counterparts(hurricane, myrmidon, brutix, eos, the same list goes on). What, so you saying is having a ship being able to fire out to 20km with high(ish) damaging, close range guns isn't at all useful? If you are then you have no idea what your talking about.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:41:00 - [64] Originally by: Morreia Sorry. I was thinking of retributions when I said 15km. And to close that gap any frig apart from an inty with take 5 seconds... in that time about 1k of damage will have been dealt. WTB retribution that does 200 DPS. Quote: Also if your gona put it like that what the point in long range guns on frigs unless they have a range bonus because they can close the gap quickly. Long range guns have several reasons, artillery for the alpha on ships like the wolf(which can one or two volley inties IIRC), and rails on ships like the ishkur(to combat larger ships and stay out of web range). Retribution is a nice gang DPS ship, but 11km pulse doesnt do jack**. Quote: Whats stoppping the fiting frig flying away from the close range frig. This would mean to close on the retri it would actually take bout 10seconds in which time about 2k of damage will have been dealt. Its called a web, it happens at 10km, just 1 km less than the pulse range. Originally by:** gamesguy You can still do reasonable damage against armour but what you fail to see is in the frig example by the time they get into firing range your already 1.5k dps ahead of them. Your argument is based on vague handwavium and claims of damage. An AF, say an AC wolf or jag, because frankly every other AF has longer range than the ressie/vengeance with pulses, can close the distance between 15km and web range in about 2 seconds, thats about 250 damage at the most. And no you dont do a "reasonble amount of damage" against armor, scorch vs omnitank=omg wreck for 10 damage woot! Originally by: Gamesguy Learn to change ammo quicker. Changing ammo on say 6 guns and firing them again should take you about 6 seconds. You dont know wtf you're talking about. You turn off the guns one by one and click the little switch button(the actual switch takes about 2 seconds), then about half the guns bug out and dont switch ammo because you're using t2 ammo thats not in a nice neat little stacked pile(due to having been used previously). It really takes about 5 seconds, not counting lag. Quote: And if you look I didn't focus on this, I took all your points into account. So your only reply to all the problems with amarr is OMG you can switch ammo in 5 seconds instead of 10! Quote: What, so you saying is having a ship being able to fire out to 20km with high(ish) damaging, close range guns isn't at all useful? Its not ***** high damage, because of omnitank, and more importantly, you cant *** keep the range! You're ignorance is showing here. Look at the sleipnir, it can hit about 18km with falloff rigs and hail. Why is it useful on the sleipnir and not on the absolution? Because the sleipnir can use a mwd and keep the range at 18km, where as if the absolution tried to do that it would run out of cap in 2 seconds from firing its cap intensive guns and using a mwd at the same time. Cap booster only delay cap death a little because consumption is so great. The second reason is absolution is still slow as with a mwd while the sleipnir is not. Whats the point of having a 20km range weapon when minmatar have a 15km range weapon that doesnt use cap and gallente have a 10km range weapon that does way more dps? Especially when both can close the distance in about 10 seconds. Quote:** If you are then you have no idea what your talking about. You're spouting nonsense. I've pvped most of my eve career, I've done solo and group piracy, I've done everything from small 0.0 gank squads, to gatecamping, to 100 man fleet battles. I think you're the clueless one here.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:47:00 - [65] Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 17:43:26 Originally by: Goumindong EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. I didn't said one thing about damage types in the text you quoted. The damage reduction on EMP has NOTHING to do with damage types. Try reading before commenting instead of assuming. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:50:00 - [66] Is there a steal plate at the front of your head or something because none of this seems to be going in so I'm just not going to bother. If you want to be a **** player all your eve career and not use your ships to their full potential then thats your problem.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:54:00 - [67] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 17:53:17 Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 17:43:26 Originally by: Goumindong EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. I didn't said one thing about damage types in the text you quoted. The damage reduction on EMP has NOTHING to do with damage types. Try reading before commenting instead of assuming. how much more damage does EMP does over phased plasma? Quote: WTB retribution that does 200 DPS 6.5m in Jita 4 x MP II MWD/AB SAR/3x HSII/co-proc DPS = 205.37 @ 16.25km+2.5km falloff DPS = 281 @ 5.4km+2.5km falloff ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:57:00 - [68] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kar Anshral I would prefer fusion and EMP to get switched around, making fusion raw total damage equal to the other -50% range ammos(12 for small: 8ex, 4ki) and EMP the -25% range ammo(10 for small: 6em, 4ex). That doesnt work, because with fusion at a high EX component and at the high raw damage point, it would utterly destroy other ammos more than it already does against armor. If there is one thing that lacks in eve atm it is explosive damage, not enough sources of explosive damage is reducing the desire to tank explosive on armor, making omni-tanks on armor that more preferable. The only "unique" source of explosive damage is projectiles(drones, smartbombs and missiles being the other 4 sources but they have all 4 damage types seperated in equal amounts). And projectiles have the blessing/curse of having multiple damage types with currently the highest raw damage ammo having explosive and em in approx. equal amounts. Making the highest damage ammo fusion would improve the only real source of explosive damage sufficiently imo. PS. I said 12 raw damage for fusion before but after thinking it over I think 11(7ex,4ki) is enough. Because of the high falloff component of projectiles the range modifier has a smaller effect on effective range and that is reflected in the ammo, with high range T1 ammo having more raw damage then other weapon types and low range T1 having lower raw damage.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:03:00 - [69] Originally by: Kar Anshral Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kar Anshral I would prefer fusion and EMP to get switched around, making fusion raw total damage equal to the other -50% range ammos(12 for small: 8ex, 4ki) and EMP the -25% range ammo(10 for small: 6em, 4ex). That doesnt work, because with fusion at a high EX component and at the high raw damage point, it would utterly destroy other ammos more than it already does against armor. If there is one thing that lacks in eve atm it is explosive damage, not enough sources of explosive damage is reducing the desire to tank explosive on armor, making omni-tanks on armor that more preferable. The only "unique" source of explosive damage is projectiles(drones, smartbombs and missiles being the other 4 sources but they have all 4 damage types seperated in equal amounts). And projectiles have the blessing/curse of having multiple damage types with currently the highest raw damage ammo having explosive and em in approx. equal amounts. Making the highest damage ammo fusion would improve the only real source of explosive damage sufficiently imo. PS. I said 12 raw damage for fusion before but after thinking it over I think 11(7ex,4ki) is enough. Because of the high falloff component of projectiles the range modifier has a smaller effect on effective range and that is reflected in the ammo, with high range T1 ammo having more raw damage then other weapon types and low range T1 having lower raw damage. I amnot sure how increasing the exp damage of fusion will do anything but boost tech 1 minnie guns against armor. Tech 1 minnie guns against armor are not the problem. EMP not out-damaging phased plasma against shields is the problem. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:10:00 - [70] AC are already good against armor. They need is a boost against shields. So change the explo into EM on the EMP. And everyone will be happy. Well in fact don't.. I shield tank.. so also change ammar lasers to explosive.... then i don 't need to worry about that. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:15:00 - [71] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 17:53:17 Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 17:43:26 Originally by: Goumindong EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. I didn't said one thing about damage types in the text you quoted. The damage reduction on EMP has NOTHING to do with damage types. Try reading before commenting instead of assuming. how much more damage does EMP does over phased plasma? 4 points (for large) just like Antimatter does 4 points more damage than Plutonium which has the same range reduction as Phased Plasma. You so hung up on EMP that you have failed to see that it's not the only ammo type with damage reduction, Phased plasma got it too while Nuclear and Carbonized Lead (the 2 longest range types) do more damage than their counter parts. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:20:00 - [72] Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 18:16:57 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 17:53:17 Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 17:43:26 Originally by: Goumindong EMP does not have a damage advantage over phased plasma against shields or against armor due to the damage type differences, it never did That is the problem. Put the numbers into the tracking guide against shield and the four armor types for phased plasma and for EM taking into account the optimal range differences and you will find that EMP is only better than phased plasma against caldari armor tanks. That is the problem. I didn't said one thing about damage types in the text you quoted. The damage reduction on EMP has NOTHING to do with damage types. Try reading before commenting instead of assuming. how much more damage does EMP does over phased plasma? 4 points (for large) just like Antimatter does 4 points more damage than Plutonium which has the same range reduction as Phased Plasma. You so hung up on EMP that you have failed to see that it's not the only ammo type with damage reduction, Phased plasma got it too while Nuclear and Carbonized Lead (the 2 longest range types) do more damage than their counter parts. Incorrect please try again. Here is a tip: Antimatter does 9.09% more damage than plutonium Multifrequency does 9.09% more damage than Gamma EMP does x% more damage than Phased Plasma. If you can fill in the x, then you know what is wrong with EMP! ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:26:00 - [73] You know what, ill say it again since i do not believe you are intelligent enough to figure it out. EMP does not do more damage against shields than phased plasma does when you are at about 25% falloff or greater. Below that, EMP does only 2.6% more damage against shields than phased plasma. See the problem? It needs to do more damage against shields. It has nothing to do with the total numbers, it could have 50 ex damage for all it mattered and it still would not achieve the goal of an ammo to shoot at shields with. Minmatar have an "all around ammo" its called phased plasma, and they have anti-armor ammo, its called fusion[or tech 2 ammo] and they have an anti-sield ammo, oh wait they dont because EMP isnt better than phased plasma. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:28:00 - [74] Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 18:29:33 You don't get it do you? Damage types have NOTHING to do with how CCP balanced it. Btw as long as you keep using base resists you have no point, because no ship you meet not even npc will have those resist. Try using that Phased Plasma against a caldari t2 ship and see how well you do. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 03/04/2007 18:29:33 You don't get it do you? Damage types have NOTHING to do with how CCP balanced it. Btw as long as you keep using base resists you have no point, because no ship you meet not even npc will have those resist. Try using that Phased Plasma against a caldari t2 ship and see how well you do. Not very well. Caldari tech 2 ships are indeed the only ships you ever want to be shooting with EMP. Congratulations for picking the exception instead of the rule. Look. Tri-hardened armor = Fusion/hail Omni-hardened armor = Fusion/hail Omni-hardened shield = phased plasma EM-hardened shield = phased plasma Tech 2 matari shield= phased plasma/hail/fusion tech 2 gallente shield = hail/fusion tech 2 amarr shield = phased plasma tech 2 caldari shied = EMP Tech 2 matari armor = hail/fusion Tech 2 Amarr armor = phased plasma tech 2 Gallente armor = hail/fusion tech 2 Caldari Armor = Hail/fusion Damage types do have everything to dow ith how CCP balances it, if it didnt different damages types simply would not exist and there wouldnt be a problem with EAMNS and lasers. Tuxford would not be mentioning these things in dev blogs. But he is writing these things and they clearly are thinking about it. The damage types have everything to do with the problem and the problem is that the all around ammo[phased plasma] is better than the shield ammo[emp] against shields. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.04.03 19:23:00 - [76] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kar Anshral ... I amnot sure how increasing the exp damage of fusion will do anything but boost tech 1 minnie guns against armor. Tech 1 minnie guns against armor are not the problem. EMP not out-damaging phased plasma against shields is the problem. Increasing damage against come at a cost, reduced damage against shields. Shield tanks could use a popularity boost . Personally I wouldn't just change emp and fusion around, I would also change every projectile ammo to follow one of the basic rules applied to the other turret ammo's(and fighters), limiting all ammo to 2 damage types. And more, for minmatar have explosive damage always present on all ammo, because it is the primary damage type for minmatar. Phased plasma and Proton are currently the only ones that lack the explosive damage. Changing projectile ammo like this would I believe get the explosive resist the "boost" it needs, what's more you'd get a race with shield tankers(which is the way minmatar seems to be going with all the new ships lately) doing mostly armor-focused damage versus a race of armor tankers doing shield-focused damage from a RP perspective.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.03 19:40:00 - [77] Originally by: Kar Anshral Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kar Anshral ... I amnot sure how increasing the exp damage of fusion will do anything but boost tech 1 minnie guns against armor. Tech 1 minnie guns against armor are not the problem. EMP not out-damaging phased plasma against shields is the problem. Increasing damage against come at a cost, reduced damage against shields. It's not really increased damage except when it does so after resists. I guess it makes for impressive hull shots, but not much else. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kar Anshral	Posted - 2007.04.03 19:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Kar Anshral Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kar Anshral ... I amnot sure how increasing the exp damage of fusion will do anything but boost tech 1 minnie guns against armor. Tech 1 minnie guns against armor are not the problem. EMP not out-damaging phased plasma against shields is the problem. Increasing damage against come at a cost, reduced damage against shields. It's not really increased damage except when it does so after resists. I guess it makes for impressive hull shots, but not much else. Yeah I missed "armor" in that sentence, my bad. fixed. no more impressive hull shots though, raw (hull) damage would stay the same.
Liranis	Posted - 2007.04.03 20:08:00 - [79] Same old, same old. You do realize that most of you fail to take into account that to be on par with other races Matars needs FAR more skill, for one, that the arty has the worst tracking ever and have lose their alpha strike bonus too? Yo do realize too that if the minmatar are so good there is a problem because nearly NOBODY fly them unless they have started them one year or more ago? (for pve everyone is flying raven\|drake and/or domi[megathron, for pvp everyone is flying megathron/domi/others varying with the situation, but quite never Matar unless they fly a vaga with nano/stabs or a nanophoon[won't really happen now with the nerf, right?:D]). And, most of all, you all fail to take into account the reload time in your graphs and comparison. Take heavy artillery, they have a rof far worse than Cruise(you know, nearly the slowest firing weapon normally) and can only put half or a third of the amount of ammunitions you put in the cruise launchers. I don't talk about their ****ty tracking either too. I wonder how that can make them as good as amaar(no reload time ever, IF you have to change ammo the whole process of changing them don't take as long as the reloading of ONE gun. It will be even worse the day we will have a "change ammo on all weapons" button.) or Hybrids.... Or the fitting problems of most minmatar ships since the shield tankers lacks mids and armort tankers lacks low. The minmatar have taken every single nerf to Eve mecanism since 2 years, every single boost didn't touch them as much as others(like let's say, HP boost that are % and not straight boost, so matar got less hp points, etc etc) and they have lost one of their specificity and usefulness/advantage(Alpha strike that is now REALLY a joke since damages didn't increase by 25% 2 times in a row....). For one time, we should admit that they have been pretty badly hit and that they need some love instead of wanting them kept in the dark pit. It's awfully boring AND annoying that nearly everyone fly the same ships since they are "flavor of the month" or "the only choice to do THAT thing"(Raven, Megathron, etc) unless they are not skilled for that and have something else to chose. It's quite easy to see how the races are unbalanced when you have nearly 70 to 80% of the population of EVE that is flying, without any second tought, Gallente or Caldari. When there is THAT much unbalance, you know with certitude the two others got the shaft in one way or another....
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 20:42:00 - [80] Originally by: Kar Anshral Edited by: Kar Anshral on 03/04/2007 19:48:06 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kar Anshral ... I amnot sure how increasing the exp damage of fusion will do anything but boost tech 1 minnie guns against armor. Tech 1 minnie guns against armor are not the problem. EMP not out-damaging phased plasma against shields is the problem. Increasing damage against armor(edit) come at a cost, reduced damage against shields. Shield tanks could use a popularity boost . Personally I wouldn't just change emp and fusion around, I would also change every projectile ammo to follow one of the basic rules applied to the other turret ammo's(and fighters), limiting all ammo to 2 damage types. And more, for minmatar have explosive damage always present on all ammo, because it is the primary damage type for minmatar. Phased plasma and Proton are currently the only ones that lack the explosive damage. Changing projectile ammo like this would I believe get the explosive resist the "boost" it needs, what's more you'd get a race with shield tankers(which is the way minmatar seems to be going with all the new ships lately) doing mostly armor-focused damage versus a race of armor tankers doing shield-focused damage from a RP perspective. boosting the ex damage of fusion will not lower its damage against shields. Similarly since double tanks are rare[for a number of reasons] you dont lose any more ground from changing ammo when facing a ship that is tanked versus untanked than you would now. I.E. it just boosts damage against armor, which is already very high. This doesnt change any of the meta play for tanking or shooting, it just increases damage. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.04.03 20:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 18:55:36 Use a fusion shells in your formula and remember most matar ships have dmg and rof bonus. -Edit- Then put it agenst the normal omni tank: EM: 70 KN/TH: 60 EX: 40 LOL wtf, i would never leave a 40% hole in my tank. 2eam2 1 dcu 2 1* explosive harder 2. Thats armortanking _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 20:48:00 - [82] Originally by: Liranis Snip This is pretty much all false. 1. Minmatar may not be able to field the full line of their ships without many skills, but they are still able to compete well. Similarly, their guns are more effective in fitting, range, and dps before they achieve tech 2 guns than other races guns. 2. Artillery still have the alpha advantage over their competitors which is quite large. It is simply no longer overpowering. 3. You almost never ever, ever have to change ammo due to running out in the course of most battles. At max skills, small autocannons will fire for minutes before running out. 4. Hit Point boosts benefit ships that have to get close and/orneed to hold a specific range[that they have the ability to hold]. Not suprisingly, the ships that need to do this most, and do this best, are Minmatar. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.03 21:09:00 - [83] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 02/04/2007 18:55:36 Use a fusion shells in your formula and remember most matar ships have dmg and rof bonus. -Edit- Then put it agenst the normal omni tank: EM: 70 KN/TH: 60 EX: 40 LOL wtf, i would never leave a 40% hole in my tank. 2eam2 1 dcu 2 1* explosive harder 2. Thats armortanking No, that is dumping CPU for some EX resistance. His numbers are wrong btw, a normal omni hits about 55% ex resist. The best way to do it is to put it up against each racial omni and just ignore the tank part, since it adds to all resists equally. So stick it against 60/10/25/35. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.03 23:19:00 - [84] Originally by: Morreia I have no argument so I'll just start making personal attacks and pretend to have the high ground Concession accepted. Typical troll.
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.03 23:21:00 - [85] Originally by: Goumindong 6.5m in Jita 4 x MP II MWD/AB SAR/3x HSII/co-proc DPS = 205.37 @ 16.25km+2.5km falloff DPS = 281 @ 5.4km+2.5km falloff Thats an extremely unrealistic fit with max skills in everything and you know it. A DCU would help you helluva lot more than the SAR for example but you dont have the cpu to fit it.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.04 01:19:00 - [86] Not really. I have 4s in all the relevent skills and run 185/235 @ 15km/5km. AWU 3. Its really rather nice. Bit fragile, but you werent going to kill that wolf anyway ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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