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Kintai mangi
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Posted - 2007.04.03 00:21:00 -
[1]
So a while back Tuxford wrote this:
"Amarr needs oomph. TomB and I have been talking about giving them oomph. What is oomph? I don't know but I sure like typing it. The Amarr were supposed to be the capacitor race, today that can be best characterized by the fact that they need most of it. It seems blatantly obvious that they should get bonus to capacitor warfare. Of course that is totally dependant on how we're "overhauling" nosferatus.
People say that beams are too hard to fit and in general, I agree. Then why haven't we done anything? Well it can be really time consuming and frankly there is always something "bigger" we need to think about. We haven't forgotten about this however."
and then he left the estimate for fixing this stuff blank. I'm sorry that I need to beat a dead horse, but a good chunk of people play Amarr and a lot of us are sick of playing a crippled race. When the most effective weapons to use on your races ship is another races weapons (especially the race your supposed to hate) the game design is flawed.
Every other race is the best at something. The amarr are the best at nothing. Best at mining ? They dont even have a mining frig or cruiser. Best at PVE ? Nope, guns suck to much cap. Best at PvP ? Again with the cap, plus the lack of mids = bad at EW, add in the fact that plates make your ship slower to align and .. pop.
I want the devs to stop losing focus on core game play issues in favor of ooh shiney crap like voice. Not all races are supposed to be uber at everything, but every other race is uber at something, and dont even try to give me this crap about cap warfare, when your race sucks on cap the way the amarr do there is no way they will ever be superior in that respect. Hell compare a dominix and a geddon. Same recharge time, geddon has slightly more cap. Big friggen whoop when your guns are chowing down 40 per shot and the nix is pulling half that.
If the devs want amarr to be "the cap race" then their ships need to reflect it. Giving them 10% bonus's to cap use on guns isnt didly when the guns use two times (or more) the energy of other races, you need to give the ships cap bonus's. Bonus's to cap equipment based on skill level and make their damned guns not suck. Nobody can fit beams, pulse's are a joke.
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Trem Sinval
Sinval Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.03 05:04:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Kintai mangi I'm sorry that I need to beat a dead horse
*tries to find that quote about the horse having been turned into puree*
Quote: a good chunk of people play Amarr and a lot of us are sick of playing a crippled race.
You know, I got sick of eating peanut butter once. So I stopped eating it.
Quote: When the most effective weapons to use on your races ship is another races weapons (especially the race your supposed to hate) the game design is flawed.
If by effective, you mean "half the DPS, 3/4 of the range, none of the bonus, worse to-hit" then yes.
Quote: Best at mining ? They dont even have a mining frig or cruiser.
Tormentor?
Quote: Best at PVE ? Nope, guns suck to much cap.
Bring:
A): friends B): A cap booster
Quote: Again with the cap
Friends or cap booster.
Quote: the lack of mids = bad at EW
So focus on tanking and damage.
Quote: the fact that plates make your ship slower to align and .. pop.
Stay aligned.
Quote: Hell compare a dominix and a geddon.
Different ships, different roles, different fits. Use a 'geddon like a Domi and you'll get popped.
Quote: Big friggen whoop when your guns are chowing down 40 per shot and the nix is pulling half that.
You know, funny thing. Slap in a few MPL II's, and they pull (40 * .75 * .5) 15 energy per shot. Throw in standard crystals, and that could be 8.25 a shot. Or how about Conflag's for 18.75?
Quote: Giving them 10% bonus's to cap use on guns
Per level. So, half off your energy purchases. Wish I could trade this here useless optimal for 50% energy usage.
Quote: isnt didly when the guns use two times (or more) the energy of other races
Let's see here...
MBL II uses (65 * .75 * .5) 24.375 energy per. 425 II uses (30 * .75) 22.5 energy per.
And the MBL has .3 more damage mod. Tachyons are like trying to fit dread weapons on a frigate, you can do it, but don't expect a practical fit. Mega's are the "right" size.
Quote: you need to give the ships cap bonus's.
Apocalypse?
Quote: Bonus's to cap equipment based on skill level
If the fit doesn't work, adjust the fit. Don't whine about the modules.
Quote: Nobody can fit beams, pulse's are a joke.
Well, SOMEBODY keeps buying the beams. And have you ever looked at a pulse fit? Do some range/damage/to-hit comparisons with AC's and blasters, and prepare to be amazed.
- Trem |

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.04.03 05:08:00 -
[3]
Bah.. Amarr simply need to be more effective at lower skill levels.. As it stands you need 10 mil sp in gunnery alone to mount a decent broadside.. 
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.04.03 05:13:00 -
[4]
The problem with Amarr is simple.
They have a wasted bonus on most of their ships; a capacitor use bonus for lasers. Is it not a coincidence that many of the ships without them are actually quite good, like the Curse?
If CCP lowers the cap usage of all lasers by 35% and replaces all instances of the cap usage bonus with something useful, Amarr will no longer suck.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio (back up, new address!) |

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.04.03 05:24:00 -
[5]
Heh.. Well that would certainly make them more effective at low sp levels.. 
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Viktor VonCarstein
Amarr Phoenix Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.03 07:53:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Viktor VonCarstein on 03/04/2007 07:51:29 Even if the cap use is sorted then you will still struggle to kill omni armour tanks.
Either switch EM and Thermal damage around or bring in another damage type like the explosive crystals that were supposed to be introduced.
Beams are very hard to fit, especially Mega Beam II, Heavy Beam II and Medium Beam II. Given that Amarr are portrayed flying heavily armoured slow gunboats they should at least be able to fit a full rack without fitting mods.
For example Apocalypse a definate gunboat with 8 Turret slots. Fitting 8 Mega Beams and no other modules leaves me -1365 PG with advanced weapon upgrades level 5.
This is only the tier 2 weapon. Many say Tachyons are different how? Railguns and Blasters there are 3 types, Tachyon Beams are just the third tier and yes they should need fitting mods for a full rack.
http://sprayandpray.xippy.co.uk |

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Riggers Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.04.03 08:00:00 -
[7]
How about increasing the build in bonuses of lasers?
This will keep the uniqueness of the "cap bonus" amarr ships get. More flavor to the game is good.
This might also make lasers usefull on other ships, if a bit cap expensive.
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Rosalina Sarinna
KHM Corporation Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2007.04.03 13:26:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Rosalina Sarinna on 03/04/2007 13:25:21
Even though I am limited to the smaller Amaar combat ships at this time, I have often wondered why the capacitor size (and/or recharge rate) is hardly any different (even worse sometimes) than other races.
I would argue caps should be higher, or their respective recharge rates, in all amaar ships relative to the missile/laser hardpoints.
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.04.03 13:28:00 -
[9]
I think "Amarr needs oomph" was Tuxford's way of acknowledging a 100 page thread, but also saying he hasn't figured out quite how to fix it yet. Without actually saying as much.
EVE-O Forums Rules summary: If the thought of doing something makes me giggle for more then 15 seconds, I am to assume I'm not allowed to do it. |

Grez
Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.04.03 13:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with Amarr is simple.
They have a wasted bonus on most of their ships; a capacitor use bonus for lasers. Is it not a coincidence that many of the ships without them are actually quite good, like the Curse?
If CCP lowers the cap usage of all lasers by 35% and replaces all instances of the cap usage bonus with something useful, Amarr will no longer suck.
Quoted for simple, and utter truth. --- Cache Clearer |

St Dragon
NexGen Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.03 13:46:00 -
[11]
I prescribe Viagra. -----------------------------------------------
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand |

Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Return
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Posted - 2007.04.03 16:02:00 -
[12]
Don't mind Tux taking his time, rather have a good fix than quick fix. I am quite annoyed by the lack of updates on what his plans are though, assuming he has plans yet...
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Xs 142
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Posted - 2007.04.03 16:19:00 -
[13]
Since when was black and white anything else than subtle shades of grey? What is this "best" bull**** you're trying to put forward as an argument?
Originally by: Oveur Eternally yours, The other dumbass 
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Barrick Stormsworn
Minmatar CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.04.03 16:32:00 -
[14]
I decided to venture into Amarr territory recently, drawn by the siren call of not having to worry about ammo, and purchased an Armageddon and 7 of every crystal.
Nabbed some beams out of our junk drawer and quickly discovered that they wouldn't fit with a decent tank. At all. 
Turning to the EVE-0 forums, I discovered that Amarr ships aren't really supposed to be tanked. Or they're not supposed to do damage. One or the other, it seems, but they can't tank AND do damage, like my Domi can. Oh well.
So I scooped up some pulses and the primary tank on the 'geddon will be its insurance Oh I can't wait to see how much damage this ship does...
PS If you don't like a race's ships, don't fly them. There's a reason I diversified out from Minmatar vessels  |

Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.04.03 16:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Barrick Stormsworn
PS If you don't like a race's ships, don't fly them. There's a reason I diversified out from Minmatar vessels 
That's not the point. It's actually about the same as saying: tech2 gear is overpriced? Okay, don't buy it then! 
Yes, we would be very happy to see Tux's thoughts on this matter. Evidently by the time passed he must have already worked out something thrilling 
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000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.04.03 16:50:00 -
[16]
Wow! 15 posts and not even a 'OMG NERF CALDARI!' post yet, the whiners must be slacking off today  Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p
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Kun'mi
Amarr An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Trem Sinval
Originally by: Kintai mangi I'm sorry that I need to beat a dead horse
*tries to find that quote about the horse having been turned into puree*
Quote: a good chunk of people play Amarr and a lot of us are sick of playing a crippled race.
You know, I got sick of eating peanut butter once. So I stopped eating it.
Quote: When the most effective weapons to use on your races ship is another races weapons (especially the race your supposed to hate) the game design is flawed.
If by effective, you mean "half the DPS, 3/4 of the range, none of the bonus, worse to-hit" then yes.
Quote: Best at mining ? They dont even have a mining frig or cruiser.
Tormentor?
Quote: Best at PVE ? Nope, guns suck to much cap.
Bring:
A): friends B): A cap booster
Quote: Again with the cap
Friends or cap booster.
Quote: the lack of mids = bad at EW
So focus on tanking and damage.
Quote: the fact that plates make your ship slower to align and .. pop.
Stay aligned.
Quote: Hell compare a dominix and a geddon.
Different ships, different roles, different fits. Use a 'geddon like a Domi and you'll get popped.
Quote: Big friggen whoop when your guns are chowing down 40 per shot and the nix is pulling half that.
You know, funny thing. Slap in a few MPL II's, and they pull (40 * .75 * .5) 15 energy per shot. Throw in standard crystals, and that could be 8.25 a shot. Or how about Conflag's for 18.75?
Quote: Giving them 10% bonus's to cap use on guns
Per level. So, half off your energy purchases. Wish I could trade this here useless optimal for 50% energy usage.
Quote: isnt didly when the guns use two times (or more) the energy of other races
Let's see here...
MBL II uses (65 * .75 * .5) 24.375 energy per. 425 II uses (30 * .75) 22.5 energy per.
And the MBL has .3 more damage mod. Tachyons are like trying to fit dread weapons on a frigate, you can do it, but don't expect a practical fit. Mega's are the "right" size.
Quote: you need to give the ships cap bonus's.
Apocalypse?
Quote: Bonus's to cap equipment based on skill level
If the fit doesn't work, adjust the fit. Don't whine about the modules.
Quote: Nobody can fit beams, pulse's are a joke.
Well, SOMEBODY keeps buying the beams. And have you ever looked at a pulse fit? Do some range/damage/to-hit comparisons with AC's and blasters, and prepare to be amazed.
Your post is incredibly ignorant. Try playing the race before you start saying they are fine.
-I refuse to spend months training another race just because mine is nefed. -Every other race has the potential for solo PVP. With amarr, often times it is suicide. -Cap boosters are not a solution for PVE. You can only carry a limited number of boosters in any ship. -Artillery is oftentimes more effective than lasers. Why? You can't shoot at all without cap, and that happens quite often. -If you get Nos'ed, you run out of cap pretty quick even with a cap booster. -Not being able to use any Ewar at all really hurts. Usually you have the option of either a web or a scrambler and that's it. The other two slots is an AB and a cap injector.(exception being arbitrator/curse) -Focusing on damage and tank is nearly impossible, because you run out of cap if you try. Focusing on damage is suicide because of the new HP bonus's. Focusing on tank usually means you just die slower. Yesturday I took a super-tanked Harbinger out. I 1v1'ed a hurricane and it ended with me out of cap, not able to shoot, not able to rep. Sure I lasted forever, but I wasn't going to break his tank any time soon. -I have given up hope of finding a very effective beam laser setu... |

Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:12:00 -
[18]
Oomph in the form of 1400mm sized ammo down there  ------
Relaxed corp recruiting |

Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:12:00 -
[19]
Oomph in the form of 1400mm sized ammo down there  ------
Relaxed corp recruiting |

Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 17:12:49
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with Amarr is simple.
They have a wasted bonus on most of their ships; a capacitor use bonus for lasers. Is it not a coincidence that many of the ships without them are actually quite good, like the Curse?
If CCP lowers the cap usage of all lasers by 35% and replaces all instances of the cap usage bonus with something useful, Amarr will no longer suck.
pretty much, but the cut should be 40-45% imo. There are some other issues in there as well, such as the horrible downfitting problems.[worst downfitting penalty in the game goes to amarr]
As well the prominience of armor omni tanks, but i think that is secondary and should stay for the most part.
Then you just have to figure out what bonuses you want on the ships.
>.> <.<
On a related note. to the guy who said that amarr are bad with autocannons. This is false. Autocannons will be slightly worse against some/many shield tanks on unbonused ships than lasers will be. [about 20%], but the damage bonus against armor is huge.
Not suprisingly, and ironicly the Abaddon does better with both blasters or autocannons than it does with lasers. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |

Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:15:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/04/2007 17:12:49
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with Amarr is simple.
They have a wasted bonus on most of their ships; a capacitor use bonus for lasers. Is it not a coincidence that many of the ships without them are actually quite good, like the Curse?
If CCP lowers the cap usage of all lasers by 35% and replaces all instances of the cap usage bonus with something useful, Amarr will no longer suck.
pretty much, but the cut should be 40-45% imo. There are some other issues in there as well, such as the horrible downfitting problems.[worst downfitting penalty in the game goes to amarr]
As well the prominience of armor omni tanks, but i think that is secondary and should stay for the most part.
Then you just have to figure out what bonuses you want on the ships.
>.> <.<
On a related note. to the guy who said that amarr are bad with autocannons. This is false. Autocannons will be slightly worse against some/many shield tanks on unbonused ships than lasers will be. [about 20%], but the damage bonus against armor is huge.
Not suprisingly, and ironicly the Abaddon does better with both blasters or autocannons than it does with lasers. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |

Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kun'mi
-I have given up hope of finding a very effective beam laser setup. The amount of powergrid they use destroys any possibility of a good tank. They also eat cap like nothing else, so any tank at all means you'll be hovering at 5% cap in no time.
Yeah, the cap consumption rate on beams is terribly unbalanced. Aren't all the other penalties you face fitting beams enough already!? Rails/blasters situation is a lot better, thought still strange.
I'll drop few numbers for M size: Heavy Beam II: 21.67 per shot Heavy Pulse II: 13.33
250mm II: 10 Heavy Neutron II: 8.67
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Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:45:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 03/04/2007 17:54:14
Originally by: Kun'mi
-I have given up hope of finding a very effective beam laser setup. The amount of powergrid they use destroys any possibility of a good tank. They also eat cap like nothing else, so any tank at all means you'll be hovering at 5% cap in no time.
Yeah, the cap consumption rate on beams is terribly unbalanced. Aren't all the other penalties you face fitting beams enough already!? Rails/blasters situation is a lot better, thought still strange.
I'll drop few numbers for M size: Heavy Beam II: 21.67 per shot Heavy Pulse II: 13.33
250mm II: 10 Heavy Neutron II: 8.67
HBs dmg mod / HPs dmg mod = 1, so it takes 62.56% more cap to deal damage with beams. HN / 250mm = 4.2/3.3 = 1. (27). After taking 'basic' cap use into account [10/8.67] we see that rails require 'only' 46.79 % more cap to deal the same relevant damage.
So I ask: WTF? 
edit: some maths added
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Lady Vorax
Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.03 18:05:00 -
[24]
Amarr needs a train load of oomph. But lest get real now i t wont happen soon, becuase aperently other things are more inportant that fixing a race....
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2007.04.03 18:08:00 -
[25]
Amarr battle fleets are the best there are, teamwork greatly increases Amarr bonuses - more so than any other race.
The amarr are the ultimate race The amarr empire is able to crush all, the current buaaucracy is simply incompetent !
miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |

Reiisha
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 18:11:00 -
[26]
8 mega beams, 4 cap 2's, 1 large rep, 3-4 hardeners, 1-2 energized nano, 1 damage control, 5 medium drones, 5 light drones, all on a passive cap recharge to be used forever and ever.
EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
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Trem Sinval
Sinval Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.03 18:29:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kun'mi Your post is incredibly ignorant. Try playing the race before you start saying they are fine.
Your post is incredibly long, because you have not yet mastered the art of snipping. I have assisted you in this endeavor.
So I decided to get an Abaddon last week, upgrading from a Prophecy. It's going to take me... OMG 5 DAYS! The inhumanity!
Oh, and now that makes Caldari, Gallente, AND Amarr battleships on this character. Months, you say?
Quote: I refuse to spend months training another race just because mine is nefed.
The point is they aren't nerfed. But, if you're UNHAPPY with your choice, perhaps it's better to make another one. Gallente ships aren't hard to get into with an Amarr spec.
Quote: Every other race has the potential for solo PVP. With amarr, often times it is suicide.
Who could have possibly imagined the empire with the largest fleet would design ships around the principle of combined arms and tactics? Who, I ask you!
Quote: Cap boosters are not a solution for PVE. You can only carry a limited number of boosters in any ship
And you can only carry a limited amount of ammo in any ship, what's your point?
Cap charges are Amarrian ammo. Get used to it, love it, live it.
Quote: Artillery is oftentimes more effective than lasers. Why? You can't shoot at all without cap, and that happens quite often.
Someone with common sense would say that if your fit is running out of cap, you should focus on not running out of cap.
Quote: If you get Nos'ed, you run out of cap pretty quick even with a cap booster
Never mind that you need 4 and 3/4 heavy NOS to negate a cap booster. If you hit that many NOS, you didn't plan the encounter very well (and, your opponent is a giant NOS ***** with no guns. Go get 'em!)
Quote: Not being able to use any Ewar at all really hurts.
Friends.
Quote: Focusing on damage and tank is nearly impossible, because you run out of cap if you try.
Friends, or fit the ship for both and focus on one at a time.
Quote: Focusing on damage is suicide because of the new HP bonus's.
Amarrian strength lies in damage at range. Stay further away from your opponents and laugh as they're unable to hit or damage you.
Quote: Yesturday I took a super-tanked Harbinger out. I 1v1'ed a hurricane and it ended with me out of cap, not able to shoot, not able to rep.
With or without a cap booster?
Quote: I have given up hope of finding a very effective beam laser setup.
They are a little more tricky to fit. The PG jump from the duals to the megas are worse than other racial guns, but you can still make up decent fits, if you had a few friends along.
- Trem |

Dolly Parton
Amarr Breast Milk of Everlasting Life
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Posted - 2007.04.03 18:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Reiisha 8 mega beams, 4 cap 2's, 1 large rep, 3-4 hardeners, 1-2 energized nano, 1 damage control, 5 medium drones, 5 light drones, all on a passive cap recharge to be used forever and ever.
girl that is my exact set up as well, 8 mega broadside FTW
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2007.04.03 19:35:00 -
[29]
As I have already stated Amarr battle fleets are the best there are, teamwork greatly increases Amarr bonuses - more so than any other race.
The amarr are the ultimate race The amarr empire is able to crush all, the current bureaucracy is simply incompetent ! miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |

Aindrias
Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2007.04.03 21:10:00 -
[30]
Ok, I'll broach it.
You can get to the T2 variants of the missiles SOOOOOOOO fast compared to T2 Turrets. Frack man.. I have to train Small -> Large lasers and then the Specializations to 3 or 4 then Motion Prediction 5 and then Trajectory Analysis 5 to get T2 Large Beams. WTF??? Siege Torps (cant remember the training tree) are SOOO Much easier to get.. and then you add all these other trainings in and the ROF and speed of the launcher is like a machine gun.
But they're UBER, I admit that.. Machine Gun T2 Pulse laser boat is insane, but in the mean time your 3/4 age Raven Pilot is just wasting all PVE in front of him w/o a care in the world as they can engage at 250km and kill mose spawns before they even get into range (especially Blood Raider and TS's as they have lasers too, cept the "Nightmare" type BS that ROCKS due to the missiles and basically pwns an Apoc, Geddon, Abo)
ALSO
Shield tanking... EM damage does squat in the way of significantly evening things out. When most well skills Raven pilots can fit an XL Shield Booster, it means NOTHING.
Does this mean Nerf Caldari ships? NO IT DOESN'T
I means Amarr need a boost hehehe.. people also say "Everything doesn't need to be balance..."... Ok... um... Balance makes it so NAtions don't fight each other, as in right now most people are like... "We could waste the Amarr Empire right now beause we can kill them before they get into their piddly laser range"
Also, right or wrong.. turrets are affected b your own ships movement, missiles aren't. So you can't move you ship.. hell.. I know it doesn't mean much at 140m/s in a BS, but it might. A Raven can move and still fight as effectively as before.
END RANT =-)
p.s. I chose Amarr because I liked the background story, not for technical reasons, and I think they will probably lash out at their enemies in the Metaplot soon.. we'll see.. ;-)
Aind null See what you can do with Paintbrush? |
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