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Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.03 01:50:00 - [1] If I wanted to do PvP I would do PvP. I do Not need other players Coming into My missions to grief me. Why is this allowed?
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.03 02:14:00 - [2] Do it in high sec then =P (doesnt stop griefters from doing it though.. but yeah mission griefing in HIGH SEC can count as harrassment if no wardec, etc..) but yeah if you are in low sec, you are pvp enabled. simple as that. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Jei'son Bladesmith Bladesmith Mining and Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.04.03 04:42:00 - [3] Why shouldn't it be? If you don't want to get into PvP fine, stay in high-sec where its nice and safe and people can't screw with you unless you give em a opening to do so, but if you're not willing to shoulder the extra risk, why should you be entitled to the extra rewards of low-sec? *☼☼☼ Confidence keeps you alive...cockiness will get you podded ☼☼☼*
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.03 06:17:00 - [4] Because Eve is a PVP game really. If you do missions in low security space (0.4 or less), then players are allowed to attack you. Try doing missions in 0.5 space or above. You will get less Loyalty Points and rewards/bonus though. Try teaming up with other players and doing missions together so you can protect eachother. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.04.03 08:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Jei'son Bladesmith Why shouldn't it be? If you don't want to get into PvP fine, stay in high-sec where its nice and safe and people can't screw with you unless you give em a opening to do so, but if you're not willing to shoulder the extra risk, why should you be entitled to the extra rewards of low-sec? This teh extra rewards are not enough to compensate you for your dedicated mission ship as diference in rewards are not so great comparing to 0.5 sytem. ie How long it take you make 0.5b more in losec then in hisec ? (and thats still cheap raven setup make it 4b+ for more experienced ppl)
Jak Silverheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.03 10:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Do it in high sec then =P (doesnt stop griefters from doing it though.. but yeah mission griefing in HIGH SEC can count as harrassment if no wardec, etc..) but yeah if you are in low sec, you are pvp enabled. simple as that. This is a PVP game, we dont need a Wardec or reason to come attack. High Sec only makes you safer not safe, if someone comes in an blows you up in a mission there it doesnt qualify as harassment, after all your Free Game. YARRR!!! Originally by: Scordite Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
EscapeArtist Caldari Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.04.03 11:56:00 - [7] If you come into low sec, and do misson... You are fair game. If you get probed out, its because a team/solo pirate took the time and the risk. You could always fit wStabs and look at local. But if your found, it's one of those things, pirates have to pay the bills some how. ---- Yarrrrr... I'm a pirate! Give me all your booty, or I'll put my heavy missle in your **** decks hold! ------ I am Legend
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Enon Rab If I wanted to do PvP I would do PvP. I do Not need other players Coming into My missions to grief me. Why is this allowed? How about WoW? Pew Pew!
CPL Nobbes	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:35:00 - [9] Quote: Because Eve is a PVP game really It's quite interesting that this is said over and over by gankers and Devs all the time. Usually as an excuse for griefing but also I suspect more because the people saying take it as an article of faith. Unfortunately as with most articles of faith the reality is somewhat different. Many many missions versus NPC enemies, most linked to Eve backstory missions handed out by NPC agents CCP advertising upgrades, changes etc to the agent/mission system (all from and versus NPC) For a PvP game it certainly has a lot of PvE content. So once and for all, stop trying to justify your enjoyment of ruining others enjoyment by hiding behind "it's a PvP game".
William Hamilton	Posted - 2007.04.03 12:47:00 - [10] ^That my friend, is an Association Falacy. Presence of PvE content does not imply that EvE is a PvE game. It's a primairly PvP game wiyth some PvE elements. Besids, what ever happened to reading that big "This is low sec" message?
annoing Amarr The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2007.04.03 13:07:00 - [11] Listening to all you cough pirates muppets calling this game PvP only makes me giggle into my carebear collection. Read the advertising to the game, read the magazine interviews with the devs, with Magnus etc and 2 images come to mind. 1 is of a game that allows and even actively encourages PvP and the other side is 2, a game where you can avoid PvP play and make a career as a merchanter, manufacturer or whatever. So 2 distinct facets to this game. PvP child or mature carebear loving miner > so those who say its PvP, please dissapear to a nice low sec and play yaaaar me heartys. Carebears, please be nice and dont talk to the sad little PvP bullies, just blame their parents for not using contraception. Devs? Please remember not everyone wants to PvP just as not everyone wants to carebear. Stop trying to blur the edges and try to cater for all kinds of player. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Long live the Inquisition Long live the Emperor Long live Amarr! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Red Rumurder	Posted - 2007.04.03 13:12:00 - [12] Originally by: EscapeArtist If you get probed out, its because a team/solo pirate took the time and the risk. what risk is this for you actually? you probe us down. holy **** thats a crime - not - no issues there. you come in your disposable ship set up for ganking while we our set up to tank that specific rat, the rats don't switch targeting to you, not 1 so where is the risk - ccp make it so anyone coming in gets targeted as well then sure bring it on but right now we got 14 BS and friends shooting us at once, then you or a group of your friends come in and not break my tank cause no way in a 1 on 1 fight you break it, you more or less push the npc dps over the edge and they get us. so i still don't see your risk compared to ours. love to see the face on someone coming to gank when 7 BS leave me and pop you ass in pure gank ship. now i have never been probed down, and if that happened to me i would avoid it but that's only cause of my 0.0 and war experience. honestly the rewards for low security mission running is so not worth the risk. CCP wants more people in low sec/0.0 they shouldn't make it so easy for pirates. wheres the risk for them compared to reward of faction fitted raven worth over 1 BIL isk. seriously where is there risk?
EscapeArtist Caldari Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.04.03 13:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Red Rumurder Originally by: EscapeArtist If you get probed out, its because a team/solo pirate took the time and the risk. What risk is this for you actually? So whatÆs the issue, we are not at risk coming in and hunting mission types? We are in the same spot as anyone else in low sec, we have ever other pirate corp and anti-corp baring down on us, as well as a criminal counter, sentys and any other punk that wants to take a pop. I've done the misson thing, and been probed out myself, its just the way of the world. But you are right, we fly disposable setups designed to gank... So sue us, if a player is daft enough to enter low sector with a ship they can't afford to loose, more fool them. Piracy is a legit career path in EvE like manufactures, Privateers and nanoships. Seriously, EvE is a PvP focused game, and low sector is a prime example of where a Anti-P corp could setup and make a killing, but they don't. Entering low sec is a risk you take, and with JTZ pirates have it even harder now. If youÆve never been tracked down, how can you complainà I donÆt mind if ppl warp out, feel free to, but donÆt ctrl q. ------ I am Legend
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.03 13:53:00 - [14] HAHAHAhahahaha!! God I love it! --- Mods stop nerfing my sig! Err - what sig? - Timmeh Yes quite!
Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:33:00 - [15] The problem with saying do missions in high-sec is that that does not stop them from coming in and salvaging all your wrecks and now CCP has helped them by letting them salvage your wrecks without taking the loot so you can't do anything. And why is it that most of the gankers look for people that do not have a chance in hell. Could it be that the are not looking for PvP but are looking just to grief other players and CCP does everything they can to help them.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.04.03 15:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Enon Rab not looking for PvP but are looking just to grief Would guess most are looking for profit through PvP (which is common trait for most traders, manufacturers etc). In my view it becomes griefing only when their only 'benefit' is to hear the lamentation of their victims.. But they aren't there to look for fair fight either. Some people might figure how to reduce lowsec mission risks enough to reap the benefits. For others it might be best to stay in high sec noob corps. CCP merely gives us options; try and pick the one that suits you best. -Lasse
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Enon Rab The problem with saying do missions in high-sec is that that does not stop them from coming in and salvaging all your wrecks and now CCP has helped them by letting them salvage your wrecks without taking the loot so you can't do anything. And why is it that most of the gankers look for people that do not have a chance in hell. Could it be that the are not looking for PvP but are looking just to grief other players and CCP does everything they can to help them. Wow, what's got stuck in your ass? If you want to play a completely solo game, what the hell did you pick a Massively Multiplayer Online Game for? If you want to have exclusive salvage rights in your missions, bring an alt with 4 tractor beams and 4 salvagers. Otherwise just accept that this is a game that revolves around player interaction. How carebear can someone possibly get... And besides, it's not like every mission you run gets invaded, unless you have alot of determined people probing you out, and you're the only one in system, in which case you need to take a hint. Now stop whining. --- Mods stop nerfing my sig! Err - what sig? - Timmeh Yes quite!
Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:14:00 - [18] You win. as of June 22 I will not be playing EvE. I see very little point in EvE other than Getting screwed.
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Enon Rab You win. as of June 22 I will not be playing EvE. I see very little point in EvE other than Getting screwed. Can I have your stuff? --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.03 16:40:00 - [20] The game isn't for everybody, that's for sure. Since you're staying until June though, try to keep an open mind in the meantime. I think the game is an immense change of perspective from other MMOs that do a lot more hand holding and tablesetting. For a great many people, it ends up offering a lot--in some ways more than any game out there. Good luck to you regardless. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Vannilla Venom Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Enon Rab The problem with saying do missions in high-sec is that that does not stop them from coming in and salvaging all your wrecks and now CCP has helped them by letting them salvage your wrecks without taking the loot so you can't do anything. That's a valid point imo.There are penalties for doing naughty stuff in safe sec.Stealing salvage should be no different to stealing from a can.Is this just an oversight by CCP or is it a feature? Back on topic-Are you quitting because people can steal your salvage in safe space or because you can be probed and ganked in non safe space?
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Vannilla Venom Originally by: Enon Rab The problem with saying do missions in high-sec is that that does not stop them from coming in and salvaging all your wrecks and now CCP has helped them by letting them salvage your wrecks without taking the loot so you can't do anything. That's a valid point imo.There are penalties for doing naughty stuff in safe sec.Stealing salvage should be no different to stealing from a can.Is this just an oversight by CCP or is it a feature? I think it's clearly intended. Not to enable griefing, but rather to make salvaging a viable profession. In RL, there's some precedent for this too in marine wreckage laws. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Davis Valdran	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:33:00 - [23] Hiya folks, I havent played eve too long on this character, I have also been lucky enough to manage to stay out of pvp until I get stronger. i agree its a pvp game but I have seen people in big ships blowing up people in their ibis in high sec and getting away. I also dont mind getting blown up its part of the game but say a group targets one person and blows them up throughout theeir whole gaming session that day 10 times or more? To me thats out of order. I actually want to get into pvp and I am not moaning here all I am saying is when does it become simple pvp to harrasment? I reckon both cases happen in pvp type MMOGGS having played a few. On the other hand you get players screaming harrasment when the get killed maybe once. Its a hard balance to strike , if people just used common sense. I would like to try being a pirate at some pont but If I had just killed someone and I seen them 2 mins later in a new ship trying to avoid me I would let them go. In reality it would probably be me trying to get away after being killed lol but I think I have made my point about people just using a bit common. Im enjoying the game :-) thus far by the way......Im just saying I can see both sides of the argument on this thread having been at both the giving and recieving end in pvp games. I have never repeatadly killed some one over and over in one gaming session when they are doing pve , cmon people doing that is all about ruining the other persons game? Why else do that? If its for enjoyment in this context then its all about having fun at the expense of someone elses misery in the same way if you currently hurled abuse and bad language at them through mails and tells. Im trying to show both sides of the coin here, I have got on great and had know hassle thus far but Im just saying if players act mature about it and give themselves license for a bit fun yes but try to think about the consequencies on the newbs game and how they would feel if they couldnt progress in eve because they got killed every 5 mins before they could get a few skills trained Dave
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Davis Valdran I have seen people in big ships blowing up people in their ibis in high sec and getting away. No you haven't. Either they were at war and PvP is allowed, and an Ibis is hardly a devastating loss, or it was a suicide gank (on an Ibis ffs) and the aggressor will have lost his ship to CONCORD. You don't quite understand what Eve is about. it's not cute and fluffy like WoW. Yes, you can get your mission deadspace invaded. In losec you can get ganked by anyone. People steal your ore. People scam you on contracts. Alts spam Jita local. Jita exists. etc, etc. Eve is a harsh, PvP-oriented game. The guys at CCP were clever enough to include many deep and excellent PvE aspects to this game, but at it's heart it's based on player vs player combat. Even if you want to be the softest bear in the game, people who want to grief you can, because otherwise Eve would be exactly like WoW, and no one wants that. --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:52:00 - [25] It's hard to say anything without knowing the specifics, but if someone is going out of their way to make you as a player miserable it can, depending on the circumstances, qualify as harassment and should be petitioned. Also, if somebody initiates hostilities and a criminal flag in HiSec without a WarDec, and doesn't lose their ship to Concord, that's a kind of exploit and should also should be brought to the attention of the GMs. I think in general that while these rules apply to everybody, that the GMs are even more interested in protecting people new to the game, especially in the starter systems. Hope some of that helps. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Davis Valdran	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:53:00 - [26] Edited by: Davis Valdran on 03/04/2007 17:50:27 Yeah m8(Marquis Dean), I have come across our type in other pvp games and you would be one of the people who scream the loudest if you got ganked every second you were on. So you think its fine to constantly kill the same person over and over so they cant play the game? Just putting it simply now ........Im not against pvp im against people using pvp to justify being total a holes.
Davis Valdran	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:56:00 - [27] Edited by: Davis Valdran on 03/04/2007 17:54:54 Agree Tsanse , Im not the one complaining here by the way Im just trying to say that its a hard balance to strike and Im trying to see both sides of the argument but some people just see it all one sided. I must stress I want to be a pirate , I have also been attacked but warped away and had np with it, I want to participate in pvp . As said Im not moaning I just hate to see people looking at things in a one sided way thats all to do with their own interests in the game and not the game as a whole.
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.03 19:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Davis Valdran Edited by: Davis Valdran on 03/04/2007 17:50:27 Yeah m8(Marquis Dean), I have come across our type in other pvp games and you would be one of the people who scream the loudest if you got ganked every second you were on. So you think its fine to constantly kill the same person over and over so they cant play the game? Just putting it simply now ........Im not against pvp im against people using pvp to justify being total a holes. I'm going to assume 'our' is supposed to be 'your'. Just because i'm disagreeing with you, doesn't mean I automatically qualify into a special class of 'griefers' that exists in your head. I'm not a griefer, i've never griefed anyone, the closest i've come is being with Privateers briefly. When I was in PRVTR, I managed to lose over 600 million worth of stuff, but I posted all my losses and I never complained, even when a Drake i'd owned for less than 15 minutes got megablobbed. I got ganked alot. Yes it is fine to kill someone over and over again. If you're getting killed over and over again, then you're doing something wrong. If you're mission running in losec, get out of losec. If you're mission running in hisec, then you're doing something stupid to give them agro on you. And the end of the day, Eve is adapting or surviving. What never solves the problem is coming to the forums and whining, but some people don't bother to consider that. And at the end of the day, if you don't like Eve, quit. The OP figured that out. --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
Roy Gordon Caldari The Star Wolves	Posted - 2007.04.03 21:55:00 - [29] For those who claim that EvE is a 'PvP only game', I will refer you to the news story by Hammerhead. As you can see, non-PvP game elements will be coming on line. Just for the record that was. Whilst I have some sympathy for those who dont like their mission running disturbed by gankers and pirates etc, this is the very activity which is featured heavily in SF films/books/comics etc. Whilst annoying, it is totally in keeping with the genre. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.04.03 23:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Davis Valdran Im not against pvp im against people using pvp to justify being total a holes. Where do you want us to be total a holes then? In RL? This is a game, ffs. People are allowed to be evil in this game to a degree not permitted in RL, and even in many other games. It's roleplay! It's a fantasy. It's recreation. Why is that so hard to understand? No one has actually peed in your cheerios, they only virtually peed in your virtual cheerios. None of it is real, none of it is lasting. Get a grip. Or, look at it from the other angle: non-consentual PvP is a valid playstyle, permitted by the rules. Why do you want to interfere in another player's preferred style of play? It works both ways. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Viktoria Maher	Posted - 2007.04.04 00:22:00 - [31] The worst part of low-sec ganking is the disparity between ganker and mission-runner. By taking precautions, the mission runner may get away, or they may lose 500mil of gear. The ganker on the other hand merely risks their target getting away. They know what the mission runner will be fitting (and tanking for), their target is in a PvE setup and the ganker is able to call in help before a fight starts. As a mission runner, I don't feel the rewards for low-sec are anywhere near enough for the risk I would need to take, so I have moved back to high-sec. ------- Hull tanking? Pffft real men pod tank - Godar Marak
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.04 01:13:00 - [32] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 04/04/2007 01:12:54 Originally by: Jak Silverheart Originally by: Petrothian Tong Do it in high sec then =P (doesnt stop griefters from doing it though.. but yeah mission griefing in HIGH SEC can count as harrassment if no wardec, etc..) but yeah if you are in low sec, you are pvp enabled. simple as that. This is a PVP game, we dont need a Wardec or reason to come attack. High Sec only makes you safer not safe, if someone comes in an blows you up in a mission there it doesnt qualify as harassment, after all your Free Game. YARRR!!! actually.. it is harrassment if you kept following that guy and kept salvaging/taking his stuff without a dec....... (I got warned by GM... ) Edit: oh and I also took the mission required loot as well... but hey, that guy smacked me and bragged about his leet fittings... but yeah the keypoint is: low sec, you can do whatever to that guy.. high sec... be careful what you do... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.04 01:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Viktoria Maher The worst part of low-sec ganking is the disparity between ganker and mission-runner. By taking precautions, the mission runner may get away, or they may lose 500mil of gear. The ganker on the other hand merely risks their target getting away. They know what the mission runner will be fitting (and tanking for), their target is in a PvE setup and the ganker is able to call in help before a fight starts. The risk for the pirate isn't so much in losing his ship (though there is some danger of that, mostly to other pirates) but rather in spending a lot of time hunting with little to show for it if he isn't lucky or if the mission runners are on their toes. Whereas the mission runner has nearly guaranteed income per hour--the only thing that can usually prevent a mission from being completed is pirate interference. Which isn't to say that it's perfectly balanced--it's not, and there are a lot of changes I'd like to see to make it a little more so. It's just that there's a little more to the story than Mission Runners Face All The Risk While Pirates Have All the Fun Making Tons of Isk in Perfect Safety. :) Quote: As a mission runner, I don't feel the rewards for low-sec are anywhere near enough for the risk I would need to take... That part I can agree with--the rewards aren't where they should be compared to HiSec and 0.0. Though there seem to be some exceptional PvE corps doing great in LoSec, it just doesn't make sense for the majority of people. If they're dedicated and group players, they move out to 0.0. If they're casual players, and not drawn to PvP, they stay in HiSec. Mostly that leaves casual players with some interest in PvP--not a huge group, and a lot of them are--guess what?--pirates. So I think it would help if there were more reason to go out there, other than the thrill of danger. That's a substantial reason, but probably not enough for most people who aren't intrigued by PvP. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.04 01:22:00 - [34] Tsanse!!! you forgot the mission runner have to risk standing loss if he fails (IE: mission crit object stolen or put though the trash compactor..) standing loss (faction ones!!) can take many many weeks (even months on some kill storylines) to recover for a casual player... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.04 01:29:00 - [35] Some of you people have absolutly the dumbest answers for my dissatisfaction in this game. All you want to do is come up with reasons to screw this game up for other people. Not everyone has the combat skills you have. not everyone is here do do PvP thats the thing about EvE you can do othere things if it were not for the cowards that look for the miners and mission runners because your to much of a low-life to go out and look foe someone that wants to do Pvp.I know now why CCP lets this go on why the let customers get run off and it has to be that they are playing EvE as well and they are Griefers. That is the only answer to them letting new customers be run off, the fun they get out of griefing is more important than money.
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.04 02:09:00 - [36] Originally by: Enon Rab Some of you people have absolutly the dumbest answers for my dissatisfaction in this game. All you want to do is come up with reasons to screw this game up for other people. Not everyone has the combat skills you have. not everyone is here do do PvP thats the thing about EvE you can do othere things if it were not for the cowards that look for the miners and mission runners because your to much of a low-life to go out and look foe someone that wants to do Pvp.I know now why CCP lets this go on why the let customers get run off and it has to be that they are playing EvE as well and they are Griefers. That is the only answer to them letting new customers be run off, the fun they get out of griefing is more important than money. Lol. Bye then! --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.04 02:32:00 - [37] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 04/04/2007 02:31:36 Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 04/04/2007 02:30:45 Originally by: Petrothian Tong Tsanse!!! you forgot the mission runner have to risk standing loss if he fails (IE: mission crit object stolen or put though the trash compactor..) standing loss (faction ones!!) can take many many weeks (even months on some kill storylines) to recover for a casual player... Despite the long-arsed length of my post, I wasn't really trying to give a full breakdown of the risks and rewards of mission running vs. blowing up their ships, just saying that it's not quite as one-sided as people sometimes say here in mission running land. For what it's worth, one of the LowSec improvements I'd like to see is a much smaller standing loss penalty for failing missions there. edit: Oh, and Enon Rab: You're very welcome. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.04.04 03:42:00 - [38] Edited by: FarScape III on 04/04/2007 03:41:34 Originally by: Enon Rab You win. as of June 22 I will not be playing EvE. I see very little point in EvE other than Getting screwed. You are over reacting because these things you are talking about happening hardly ever ever ever happen anyays. They never ever happened to me in any way in two years of playing not even some one stealing my ore. My guess if some one gets these things happening to them on a steady basis, they are asking for it in some way. I'm a cool dude in game so I guess people do not like or care to mess with me, BUT I would not care at all, and would just laugh or something lol. P.S. It would make this game even more fun if people would mess with me in mission or steal my ore or what ever but I do not want to be a ***** to someone to get them to do it, so what ever, I'll just do the low sec Factional Warfare missions and see what happen. proboly nothing, ho hum :) A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Jak Silverheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.04 04:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 04/04/2007 01:12:54 Originally by: Jak Silverheart Originally by: Petrothian Tong Do it in high sec then =P (doesnt stop griefters from doing it though.. but yeah mission griefing in HIGH SEC can count as harrassment if no wardec, etc..) but yeah if you are in low sec, you are pvp enabled. simple as that. This is a PVP game, we dont need a Wardec or reason to come attack. High Sec only makes you safer not safe, if someone comes in an blows you up in a mission there it doesnt qualify as harassment, after all your Free Game. YARRR!!! actually.. it is harrassment if you kept following that guy and kept salvaging/taking his stuff without a dec....... (I got warned by GM... ) Edit: oh and I also took the mission required loot as well... but hey, that guy smacked me and bragged about his leet fittings... but yeah the keypoint is: low sec, you can do whatever to that guy.. high sec... be careful what you do... I didnt mean continuously do it non stop. My point was doing it to someone once or twice isnt harrassment. But doing it continuously is harrassment, which I agree with. Which is why its good to change your targets and share the love Originally by: Scordite Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Vannilla Venom Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.04 13:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Enon Rab Some of you people have absolutly the dumbest answers for my dissatisfaction in this game. All you want to do is come up with reasons to screw this game up for other people. Not everyone has the combat skills you have. not everyone is here do do PvP thats the thing about EvE you can do othere things if it were not for the cowards that look for the miners and mission runners because your to much of a low-life to go out and look foe someone that wants to do Pvp.I know now why CCP lets this go on why the let customers get run off and it has to be that they are playing EvE as well and they are Griefers. That is the only answer to them letting new customers be run off, the fun they get out of griefing is more important than money. Dude,you can avoid PvP if you don't go into low sec.The pirates and 'griefers' as you call them have their game and you have yours.If you follow some simple advice it's easy to keep your game seperate from theirs. And can you please answer my question.Are you leaving because other players can salvage your wrecks without penalty in hi sec or because you got probed and ganked in lo sec?
Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.04 14:20:00 - [41] This has happened to my corp members three times in the past week
Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.04 14:26:00 - [42] low-sec or High-sec my missions sould not be oppened to otheres. getting jumped going to the mission is one thing but when I am in the mission others should not be able to come in and screw with me. When it is a locke gate and I go back around to bring in another corp member I should not have othere players there trying to get in. people that think this is ok are griefers and are not here to play the game but are here just to grief other players. So just tell the truth are you a griefer?
Red Rumurder	Posted - 2007.04.04 14:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Enon Rab low-sec or High-sec my missions sould not be oppened to otheres. getting jumped going to the mission is one thing but when I am in the mission others should not be able to come in and screw with me. When it is a locke gate and I go back around to bring in another corp member I should not have othere players there trying to get in. people that think this is ok are griefers and are not here to play the game but are here just to grief other players. So just tell the truth are you a griefer? their are grievers and you can petition them to CCP. Get there ass booted for a week or 2. I feel your pain rab but don't leave cause of 1 or 2 asses. Your right tho about the availability of pirates being able to get an easy kill is not right. There is also some simple tactics that will avoid being tracked down. Pirates you know you got it good since they changed the rules in you being able to track us down. CCP change AI on rats and add any new comer to mission space gets targeted with 1/3 or rats engaging mission runner and it will be fair. No reason why you get to shoot us with out them shooting you. Change that and more people will come back to low security missions. Till then have fun. Oh that little comment on I got no right to talk cause I've never been scanned down. I do almost everything in game including pirating. I know how good you got it so don't even try that approach, I have scanned people down, and I never get targeted by the rats where the poor guy is just getting lit up. I won't kill a mission runner (just my self, right or not its not fair and I live and play by a certain code) just to get a cheap kill. You want to pirate and get respect join Privateers and fly everywhere with war targets, that is more of a challenge and fun to me then in essence finding an expensive hauler and popping it or a raven being shot at by 10 BS and shooting it knowing that i couldn't do it on my own. i guess what i am trying to say to some of these posts is look at the other side in an educated way. seriously look at both sides before flaming. now speaking of flaming let it commence
Crag Heyder Gallente Icosothron Industries	Posted - 2007.04.04 15:43:00 - [44] The mission gankers keep saying 'risk vs reward' LOL - they are actually the opposite - they use there dirt cheap setups and take out PvErs with their mission gear and make all sorts of money off the t2 equipment they loot. LOL - they should listed to themselves. If CCP said we are going to move all the good missions to hi-sec, they'd say - Waaaaa! this isn't fair Waaaa!
Crag Heyder Gallente Icosothron Industries	Posted - 2007.04.04 15:49:00 - [45] Edited by: Crag Heyder on 04/04/2007 15:45:42 Edited by: Crag Heyder on 04/04/2007 15:45:23 I'd like to see nercoxit and bistot in mission asteroid belts in hi-sec. Then you'll really hear the forums alight with whining!!! lol
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.04 16:51:00 - [46] Dear pirates, please stop the Risk/Reward BS. There is almost no risk for ganker. He choses when to attack and whom. Most likely he can tell the fit on the target or at least major damage and resistances. And victim is already most likely being pounded by rats, and NO mission setups prove any worth in PvP. Only thing the mission runner can hope for is that rats dont scramble him and that gankers dont warp right on top of him. Missioning is really fun, spamming scanner constantly to see if someone is probing you. No one need to pay any attention to the mission and rats, right? Oh wait, wrong, not everyone flies CNR and cakewalks missions. You can gank the mission runner when he enters or leaves the system or a station. Please, please, allow CCP to make at least deadspace missions safer, agent gives you the key to the deadspace gate. It would at least make it a little bit more difficult for gankers to hunt people.
Liang Nuren Red 42 CORE.	Posted - 2007.04.04 16:56:00 - [47] 1. Mission runners are not guaranteed to be PVP noobs. Not that I've ever done this, but you can take out the intro portion to the mission, sit aligned 30km from the warp in point (so you can be sure what's coming your way ... note that I realize there are certain ships which can still scram you), and wait. If someone's really scanning down your mission (there are ways to know this), they will be in for a nasty surprise when a pvp fitted raven/mega/ship of choice obliterates them. 2. Mission runners do not have to enter lowsec. 3. There's a giant box when you enter lowsec that tells you of the dangers of lowsec. Read it next time you drop by. 4. "Griefers"... honestly, lets just call them pirates, or gankers, or piwates, or hostiles, or whatever, but they are not griefers unless they are repeatedly [and intentionally] killing you. If you keep going to the same system, in the same place, in lowsec, that's your bad. wikipedia: A griefer is a slang term used to describe a player in an online video game who plays the game simply to cause grief to other players through harassment. wikipedia: Harassment refers to a wide spectrum of offensive behavior. When the term is used in a legal sense it refers to behaviors that are found threatening or disturbing, and beyond those that are sanctioned by society. nationaltcc (for a good colloquial definition of harassment, since this really isn't a true legal issue): persistent, unwanted annoyance toward another person. Now that we've established that if they're repeatedly doing something not accepted by the society (which does not mean you), and you're not giving them an opening (such as persistently going to the same gate / system, stealing from them, having an agg timer, being at war, etc), then they are a griefer. Otherwise, they are simply playing the game, and you're being silly. Thanks. 5. Almost every pirate I know thinks 50m is a lot of isk, because all those nice "t2 goodies" you keep talking about dropping, are sold to pay for the next "throw away" ship because one of you guys, or one of us, ganks him. So, how many T2 shield boosters do you think it costs to pay for a new Tier 2 BC? What about a Command ship? How many T2 Shield Power Relays (which are stupid expensive) does it take to pay for a Domi? What about the fitting on said ships? 6. T2 / Faction / best named items are not required to run any mission I've ever seen. I don't run level 4's though, but I can and do tank 0.0 (top end) 3 BS + 3 BC spawns in a complete T1 fit CRUISER. I do them (comfortably) in a complete T1 PVP fit battle cruiser. Liang
Red Rumurder	Posted - 2007.04.04 17:27:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren 6. T2 / Faction / best named items are not required to run any mission I've ever seen. I don't run level 4's though, but I can and do tank 0.0 (top end) 3 BS + 3 BC spawns in a complete T1 fit CRUISER. I do them (comfortably) in a complete T1 PVP fit battle cruiser. i am getting to the point in SP that yes I don't need the faction goods, but I do run everything full T2. Lvl 4 missions and ratting are not the same at all. I have done both and I have ratted the 3x 1.8mil Angel and Sansaha Rats. I have also done some of the crazy lvl 4 cosmos (respawn rates on some are just insane but fun). Come do World Collide lvl 4 Angel or Gurista and tell me if you can do it in a T1 fitted cruiser and I'll want to see the fraps. Now I know some people that know the little things on every mission and have crazy SP 45+ mil and can do lvl 4's in an AF. The good majority of mission runners does not run those 2 missions solo unless they have good skills or good items (T2/faction). Now to your point on grievers we need more detail from our author bud on why he uses that statement. Red
Red Rumurder	Posted - 2007.04.04 17:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren 5. Almost every pirate I know thinks 50m is a lot of isk, because all those nice "t2 goodies" you keep talking about dropping, are sold to pay for the next "throw away" ship because one of you guys, or one of us, ganks him. So, how many T2 shield boosters do you think it costs to pay for a new Tier 2 BC? What about a Command ship? How many T2 Shield Power Relays (which are stupid expensive) does it take to pay for a Domi? What about the fitting on said ships? i got your answer, 1 covert ops cloak
Liang Nuren Red 42 CORE.	Posted - 2007.04.04 17:43:00 - [50] 1 covops cloak... do people actually do missions in covops/recons? Hmm, I'd say you may be right about running level 4's, I'll freely admit that I haven't. Then again, you pick the hardest of the level 4 missions to show as examples ... but nobody forces you to take those missions. However I've run some level 3's, and according to current threads on the forums, the ECM in Level 4's is too insane to do solo lately anyway. Liang
Crag Heyder Gallente Icosothron Industries	Posted - 2007.04.04 18:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Mission runners are not guaranteed to be PVP noobs. Not that I've ever done this, but you can take out the intro portion to the mission, sit aligned 30km from the warp in point (so you can be sure what's coming your way ... note that I realize there are certain ships which can still scram you), and wait. If someone's really scanning down your mission (there are ways to know this), they will be in for a nasty surprise when a pvp fitted raven/mega/ship of choice obliterates them. 2. Mission runners do not have to enter lowsec. 3. There's a giant box when you enter lowsec that tells you of the dangers of lowsec. Read it next time you drop by. 4. "Griefers"... honestly, lets just call them pirates, or gankers, or piwates, or hostiles, or whatever, but they are not griefers unless they are repeatedly [and intentionally] killing you. If you keep going to the same system, in the same place, in lowsec, that's your bad. wikipedia: A griefer is a slang term used to describe a player in an online video game who plays the game simply to cause grief to other players through harassment. wikipedia: Harassment refers to a wide spectrum of offensive behavior. When the term is used in a legal sense it refers to behaviors that are found threatening or disturbing, and beyond those that are sanctioned by society. nationaltcc (for a good colloquial definition of harassment, since this really isn't a true legal issue): persistent, unwanted annoyance toward another person. Now that we've established that if they're repeatedly doing something not accepted by the society (which does not mean you), and you're not giving them an opening (such as persistently going to the same gate / system, stealing from them, having an agg timer, being at war, etc), then they are a griefer. Otherwise, they are simply playing the game, and you're being silly. Thanks. 5. Almost every pirate I know thinks 50m is a lot of isk, because all those nice "t2 goodies" you keep talking about dropping, are sold to pay for the next "throw away" ship because one of you guys, or one of us, ganks him. So, how many T2 shield boosters do you think it costs to pay for a new Tier 2 BC? What about a Command ship? How many T2 Shield Power Relays (which are stupid expensive) does it take to pay for a Domi? What about the fitting on said ships? 6. T2 / Faction / best named items are not required to run any mission I've ever seen. I don't run level 4's though, but I can and do tank 0.0 (top end) 3 BS + 3 BC spawns in a complete T1 fit CRUISER. I do them (comfortably) in a complete T1 PVP fit battle cruiser. Liang Uh, oh. Here come the vocabulary exersizes! Better watch out, you will never stand a chance in a debate against this guy :P
Red Rumurder	Posted - 2007.04.04 18:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren 1 covops cloak... do people actually do missions in covops/recons? Hmm, I'd say you may be right about running level 4's, I'll freely admit that I haven't. Then again, you pick the hardest of the level 4 missions to show as examples ... but nobody forces you to take those missions. However I've run some level 3's, and according to current threads on the forums, the ECM in Level 4's is too insane to do solo lately anyway. Liang k you got me there, its not a mission item, but while your looking in low security for us the odds are they are going to come across something that is not mission fitted so in essence they'll get theres for sure, mission or not
Misanth	Posted - 2007.04.04 21:59:00 - [53] Originally by: CPL Nobbes Quote: Because Eve is a PVP game really It's quite interesting that this is said over and over by gankers and Devs all the time. Usually as an excuse for griefing but also I suspect more because the people saying take it as an article of faith. Unfortunately as with most articles of faith the reality is somewhat different. Many many missions versus NPC enemies, most linked to Eve backstory missions handed out by NPC agents CCP advertising upgrades, changes etc to the agent/mission system (all from and versus NPC) For a PvP game it certainly has a lot of PvE content. So once and for all, stop trying to justify your enjoyment of ruining others enjoyment by hiding behind "it's a PvP game". EvE is anarchy. You know that the devs didn't invent piracy? nor ore thieving? or selling product packages like "we run your pos for x money"? Players make this game. It has some fixed game mechanics, and it has a 'policy' in the 'Empire', apart from that everything is up to players to chose what to do. This game could be 100% PvE but it has every aspect a true PvPer want, so this game is preferred for pvpers. Sad to say but there is not for anyone to say "this game is".. because this game is nothing but open for everything that isn't restricted by game mechanics. That's what is making this game great. It allows for players to construct hierarchy, economy, pvp, production, etc, everything is based on our actions. I killed a guy in Jita some time ago and then got shot down by CONCORD. There's nothing saying I couldn't shoot that guy down, but there was a police killing me for doing it. But.. I can still go back to Jita and kill another guy another day. That's also why the original post is kind of hilarious. Asking to reap rewards without taking risks in this game is about as smart as flying a ship you can't afford to lose.
Roy Gordon Caldari The Star Wolves	Posted - 2007.04.04 23:38:00 - [54] What I'm about to say is going to sound pretty strange coming from someone who basically has no interest in PvP, and who is a role-player to boot. Why on Earth are mission runners complaining about being jumped by pirate players on missions when thats exactly what the 'rats' found on missions are doing to us already!!! Hell's teeth people, just imagine for once that the players who intrude upon your mission are say 'reinforcements' or some such. This is not an 'instanced' game (thank the God's for that I say!), and anywhere we roam we will encounter other players, both for good and ill. And yes, I've been jumped in low sec by a pirate. Ok, it was shortly before the 'jump to 0' thing came in and I got caught a meer 3000k from the gate I was heading for. Was I mad? You bet! However, that was the risk I took in going to low sec, reward vs risk. I really think we should try to imagine we are in a science fiction universe populated by all the usual science fiction stereotypes and try thinking on our feet for a change instead of trying to make the game easier for ourselves. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:03:00 - [55] Its funny to see these discussions all the time. I have been living in lowsec from day 1 of my (still short) EvE career and I have lost several ships and got podded more then once. Granted my losses expressed in raw iskies were probably tiny compared to the people doing lvl 4 missions, but for me they were significant and thats really what matters. I dont complain about pirates thou. I go hunt them in alliance gangs. That is what you all should be doing, making them bleed. Lowsec is not save, its explicitly stated ingame its not. You can tell your autopilot to avoid it. You get a warning when entering. If you choose to not heed those warnings, you chose to put yourself at risk. If you did not want to take that risk, why did you enter lowsec? Remember, I am not a pirate. I mine and rat and mission, but I do it in lowsec. In any case there is one simple reason why people have ot be probable in missions: Making mission space unaccessable to others would give anyone a 100% secure savespot while in space. All youd need to do si dock, take a cheap lvl 1 mission and hide i it if things go bad. This would mean that the pirates camp the gates, pop you there and the nrun to their mission saves and sit there save and secure waiting out their aggression timers and laughing at the antipiracy efforts made to kill them. Instead of complaining, adapt. keep your scanner open and watch for other ships. allign to something soyou can warp away quickly. stay away from the deadspace entries, out of scram range. Fly ships you can replace without it hurting you too much. If you are not willing to do this because you feel you shouldnt have to, why do you then enter a region of space where such precautinos are essential in order to survive? I think many people just have the wrong mindset when it comes to EvE PvP. This is not a game where you have special zones to fight people, and this also is not a game where you can choose to fight or not to fight. In this game, if someone is determined enogh, he can find a way to kill your ship. Even in highsec and even if you are in a NPC corp, sitting near a station ready to dock. And his si eactly why I love EvE, because its not an easy game. I appreciate the fact that I have to watch my stuff or it might get blown up/stolen. Because if it couldnt be, what would there be to accomplish? Really if you cant accept this, I dont see you liking EvE, sorry.
Arnt	Posted - 2007.04.05 12:34:00 - [56] I'd like to go to low sec. Losing ships, being podded, hey! adrenaline! good! However if I compare high sec to low sec, then it's obvious that high sec is more profitable, once you subtract the price of operating in low sec. If I want adrenaline at the cost of ISK, I go pvp. If I want ISK, I run missions in high sec. Low sec mission running is a mix of the two, however, it's ISK cost per adrelanine milliliter is simply prohibitive. It can't beat true PvP for enjoyment. It can't beat high sec mission running for ISK. Low sec mission running simply has no purpose.
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.04.05 18:25:00 - [57] Originally by: Arnt I'd like to go to low sec. Losing ships, being podded, hey! adrenaline! good! However if I compare high sec to low sec, then it's obvious that high sec is more profitable, once you subtract the price of operating in low sec. If I want adrenaline at the cost of ISK, I go pvp. If I want ISK, I run missions in high sec. Low sec mission running is a mix of the two, however, it's ISK cost per adrelanine milliliter is simply prohibitive. It can't beat true PvP for enjoyment. It can't beat high sec mission running for ISK. Low sec mission running simply has no purpose. Form e as a new player (and also a Roleplayer), 0.0 isnt really an option. I have been there a few times, but I dont want to live there at this point of my career as I wouldnt be able to do much. But empire...no way. its boring. I guess its a matter of perspective. sure you can use Empire to fuel your PvP habit, basically staying save at the times you need to be. However I prefer to be on my toes at all times and not only when its PvP day. This is personal preference of course and evryone has to make up their own mind about it.
Zulana Chas	Posted - 2007.04.05 20:26:00 - [58] I can understand the frustration of heading to a mission in low sec .1 - .4 and getting ganked at the mission gate. Heck I had it happen to myself and lost my costly BC. Was the ganker looking for PvP ? Nope , was looking to farm some easy ISK. So what to do , if you are going to mission in low sec like the others said 1) only do it in ships (hull & modules ) you can replace 2) scout the mission area out ahead of time with warp stabs before heading back to actually do the mission 3) empty out the cargo hold of everything not needed on the mission , no need to give them free salvage or wreck drops 4) if you go back to the location to loot after a mission think of going with stabs in the lower and just take them offline when you are in the complex doing your salvage and wreck looting Peace
ElweSingollo The Vanyar	Posted - 2007.04.08 02:37:00 - [59] Edited by: ElweSingollo on 08/04/2007 02:34:40 The problem lies in regards to this "Mission runner" v the "pirate" debate is that in a sense a pirate or group of pirates killing a mission runner in low sec in there mission generally (not always) holds the majority of the cards and the odds if they are able to get points on the mission runner are usually stacked in there favour. Eve is about risk v reward however in this particular occurence that factor to my mind is now out of kilter previously it used to be difficult (not impossible) to scan out mission runners now it is tbh fairly easy provided you have someone that maybe took a month to train certain skills before it need finesse and skill to be able to do it now it needs niether. There is also the secondary issue of Piracy being penalised but anti pirates are often more harshly penalise I know many active anti pirates that are almost permanantly -2 or - 3 sec and lower because they go after known pirates who always stay above the -5.0 sec rating at the moment game mechanics do not properly support viable methods of anti piracy that thankfully is being looked at though. CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.04.08 08:27:00 - [60] Originally by: Enon Rab low-sec or High-sec my missions sould not be oppened to otheres. getting jumped going to the mission is one thing but when I am in the mission others should not be able to come in and screw with me. When it is a locke gate and I go back around to bring in another corp member I should not have othere players there trying to get in. people that think this is ok are griefers and are not here to play the game but are here just to grief other players. So just tell the truth are you a griefer? It's called Low Sec. Not Better-Pay-For-Your-Missions Sec. I've never done what you've described to anyone. But yet I think it's ok. In fact I think it would be a shame if CCP "fixed" it. Guess I'm a griefer. Player provided challenges >>>>>>>>>> NPCs. The game is more enjoyable if you figure out how to adapt and beat the other players at their own game. ------------------- Say What?
Pindleskin Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.04.08 11:54:00 - [61] Contrary to popular belief, 0.0 is not chock full of pirates just waiting to kill you. 0.0 for the most part is completely empty once you get a few jumps away from low sec. It's very easy to find a system with a station and an agent and run missions to your hearts content doing little more than keeping an eye on local. It seems to be that there's this aura about low sec and 0.0 that terrifies people with the assumption its instant death. Next time you log in, look at number of people in game, then look on your map and show pilots in space. See all them dark bits all the way round the outside????????????
dastompinata	Posted - 2007.04.10 22:30:00 - [62] I dont really understand why everyone is complaining. Low sec is a risk, if you dont like the risk, dont go there. I run missions pretty much exclusively now, but you dont see me complaining about getting ganked. Why? because I dont run low sec missions. Its not griefing if a player scans you out while your running a mission, its pirating. Furthermore the reason other people are allowed into your mission is that Eve does not use instancing, thats one of the biggest appeals of the game so if you have a problem with that than you really ought to leave. As for teh other things, the reason the rats aint shooting at those people who have come to gank you is cause your aggroed, if you want that changed than say goodbye to gang missions as your tanker wont be taking all incoming fire (I somehow doubt thats what you want). The only legitimate problem iv heard is that salvaging is not grounds for aggro and thw whoel thing with mission critical items being stolen, other than that us mission runners dont really have anything to complain about when it comes to other players.
Bedardius Amarr Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.11 07:08:00 - [63] Please excuse any arrogance as I only read about the first 10 posts. Just wanted to say that CCP doesn't make it easy for pirates to gank mission runners. Do you have any idea how hard it is to probe someone tucked away in their triangulated mission spot? nearly impossible even with excellent probe skills. Just my 2 cents. ___________________________________ Yarr. Am i cool enough to say that?
Mangus Thermopyle Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.11 08:22:00 - [64] As EVE is designed right now, doing mission in low sec (0.1 to 0.4) is pretty stupid. Sure, you get a little more reward, but you have to constantly scan for probes, and abort missions when you see a probe. With this in mind, I doubt you actually make any more ISK compared to a 0.5 system. And doing mission in loc sec with a faction equipped ship, or a faction BS like CNR, is just plain stupid. I wonder how many players will quit when level 5-6 becomes available only in low sec. It will be griefers paradise, and I doubt the normal mission runner will find that very funny (and why play a game if its not funny). The best systems to do mission in is either in a 0.5 system with a high quality agent, or in 0.0. Missions in 0.0 have far higher profit than in low sec, and its surprisingly safe since you can use local to see hostiles/neutrals.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.04.11 08:33:00 - [65] Edited by: Galk on 11/04/2007 08:43:19 Originally by: Bedardius Just wanted to say that CCP doesn't make it easy for pirates to gank mission runners. I had this big post writen out, decided against posting it, i think responding to this line alone can sum up most of was saying anyway. Sadly thats exactly what they do. They force you to gank people!!! My big long winded one was all about that subject, how unforfilling it must be from the agressive side (as like you mention, that often means sitting there bored stiff for hours waiting for that opportunity for that gank) Then ofcourse victims of that gank, who ofcourse get caught up in the same loop as the agressor should they decide to show their teeth.. which doesn't appeal to most mission runners:/ What i can never understand is how people find enjoyment from any of that... aside the often end result (killmails, odd piece of loot, knowing you've cost the guy/gal some time) iv'e never saw the enjoyment of sitting at the computer with eve running, staring at a screen wating for hours for something to happen..... yet iv'e seen many people that do it (sit in stations/systems) all afternoon, night and day.. for the sake of 1 or 2 hrs play during that time.. often proving to be completely fruitless. Interesting thoughts realy, you'd think from what actualy happens on the ground... agressive pk'ers wouldn't be happy and would desire change. Something i would sure welcome (as an ex/future protential anti pk'er), move it away from the gank (aforementioned bordom) to a more non consensual model.. forcing the fight bringing concequence for presence alone. Be a lot more fun *edit... great idea to bring about a reality to that, it'll have to wait till tonight (work) ______
Maximillian Pillon Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.04.11 16:25:00 - [66] I think the best idea I have read here is a key to enter the mission complex and locks out everyone else not in the gang/mission. Other than that, you are open game for PvP before and after the mission. Some of the things I do before entering a mission, just to be safe, is I usually have a shuttle to scout the entry gate ahead of time. Shuttles are nice since if they get blown, no big lost, and not much loot. Yo might get podded but I rather buy a new 5 mil isk clone than to lose a bunch of isk from ships/mods/loot. Shuttles also take a little longer to target, and they align and warp fast. I always pay attention to local and look for war targets/pirates even before I accept a mission. Even after accepting, you have plenty of time to complete the mission and can always wait it out if trouble comes by. Sure you might not get a bonus for completing the mission ahead of time, but you can still complete it at a later time for less reward.
Teadrinker	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:05:00 - [67] Originally by: Enon Rab The problem with saying do missions in high-sec is that that does not stop them from coming in and salvaging all your wrecks and now CCP has helped them by letting them salvage your wrecks without taking the loot so you can't do anything. Don't you get kill rights if someone salvages one of your wrecks? I had assumed that was the case. If it is not, then this is definitely something that should be fixed. If you have kill rights...well then you can do something...
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.11 19:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Teadrinker Don't you get kill rights if someone salvages one of your wrecks? I had assumed that was the case. If it is not, then this is definitely something that should be fixed. If you have kill rights...well then you can do something... There's no flag for salvaging a wreck, regardless of who it belongs to. Personally I don't believe there's any great need for one either. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Enon Rab	Posted - 2007.04.18 03:01:00 - [69] This will be my last post. I have had all i can take of the grifers is this game, it just isn't any fun anymore. This game was made by griefers for griefers and nothing will ever be done about the griefers. I will not put any more of my money into a company that does things the way CCP does. EvE is nolonger on my computer and will never be back on it. Good-buy
Silistra Minmatar Equinox Eternal Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.20 17:35:00 - [70] 0/ Eve is a PvP game because PvP is allowed. Its not for everyone, obviously.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.20 17:49:00 - [71] Originally by: EscapeArtist If you come into low sec, and do misson... You are fair game. Agreed. Originally by: EscapeArtist If you get probed out, its because a team/solo pirate took the time and the risk. Time = about 30 seconds...what risk, exactly? And in exchange for 30 seconds work and no risk the pirate gets a *** at some VERY nice faction items. Didn't someone mention risk/reward back there? Originally by:** EscapeArtist You could always fit wStabs and look at local. wStabs. LOL. Impossible to run a level 4 mission with wStabs. Originally by: EscapeArtist But if your found, it's one of those things, pirates have to pay the bills some how. And shooting mission runners is like shooting fish in a barrel. I'm not arguing that missions in low sec should be 100% safe...but they shouldn't be 100% safe to gank either. Yes, maybe one pirate will post how he was "set up" on entering a mission. Myself, I doubt it ever happens, and if it does, not often enough. One small change I would make would be this...make player warp scramblers stop working in deadspace. they can still jump the runner, but they can't stop him running away...that means they have to gank him, AND leave a team somewhere else to try and catch him...at the gate or station maybe...OR they have to gank him while he's still being warp scrambled by the rats on the mission. I think that's about all the balance it needs. One hint - mission runners...don't use drones on your deadspace missions if you can possibly avoid it...it makes you much easier to find on scanners. ---- Yarrrrr... I'm a pirate! Give me all your booty, or I'll put my heavy missle in your **** decks hold! --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.20 17:50:00 - [72] Originally by: Pindleskin Contrary to popular belief, 0.0 is not chock full of pirates just waiting to kill you. No, that would be 0.4's... --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.04.20 19:33:00 - [73] Quote: One small change I would make would be this...make player warp scramblers stop working in deadspace. they can still jump the runner, but they can't stop him running away...that means they have to gank him, AND leave a team somewhere else to try and catch him...at the gate or station maybe...OR they have to gank him while he's still being warp scrambled by the rats on the mission. This would be the perfect solution, he could already be unable to warp, so pirates do have a windows to be able to kill their target. Of course I have never had a problem with people even finding me in my missions. Of course I stay in 0.5 and above but thats besides the point.
aquontium Gallente Fourth Circle	Posted - 2007.04.21 13:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Enon Rab Good-buy For me, eve was a good buy. And yes, I run missions in low sec Umm.......bring Enon Rab up in game, go to the standings > liked by tab. He'd never done any missions but the tutorial ones. In 3 month and 19 days. 0.0 sec status. Muppet! We should let this poor thread die in peace. I feel sorry for the platter this binary rests upon.
TheNorthwind	Posted - 2007.04.21 13:25:00 - [75] Edited by: TheNorthwind on 21/04/2007 13:22:12 Edited by: TheNorthwind on 21/04/2007 13:21:46 Originally by: Roy Batty68 It's called Low Sec. Not Better-Pay-For-Your-Missions Sec. Yup, but on missions reward follows risk. Doing a long mission in .4 is much riskier than doing it in .5, so it's pretty illogical that your agents expect you do it for similiar rewards. A weighting- not huge, since the risk isn't always present- but a small weighting on reward makes sense. I mainly decline low-sec missions from my main agents, who're all in the same system bordering a piratey .4, it's just not worth the extra hassle, attention and risk when I can decline and get another for a .5 that'll give me comparable rewards. It's supposed to be an economy after all. IMO the rats should also respond to the PVP ship as they do to the mission runner- perhaps that could be rigged against standing vs the NPCs, since obviously rats and pirates may have a shared interest. This would be a fine opportunity to revise the whole aggro system, since it's blatantly daft at the moment- rat frigates ignoring your drones to shoot at you, or BSs ignoring me to shoot my light drones, or ships firing away at extreme range at one target while another drills them up close. One thing I'm not clear on- when you're probed out in a mission, does the pirate have the same restrictions on warping to deadspace as I do? I've only had this twice and both times I was on the ball so I escaped- the level 4 by my main agents has a pretty sustained pirate camp so if I'm missioning up there I watch my back constantly. But I couldn't tell you if they were deadspace missions or not. If they can warp directly into deadspace (which I doubt) then that's clearly gamebreaking. If they have to work their way through gates then what's the issue? You should get plenty of warning on them unless you're inattentive or AFK in which case, more fool you. Allowing people to salvage your loot is the lesser of 2 evils, it'd be pretty ridiculous to prevent lower level players from salvaging ignored wrecks, that's a legitimate approach to the game. Not everyone can be bothered to salvage, just look at rat belts. So that needs to be allowed, somehow. Then, that could be extended, as I'll often ignore loot that a noobier player would want- perhaps we need an option "Allow 3rd party looting" that we could select and either have our stuff protected, or not. Or when a player attempts to salvage/take your loot that could activate a message to you asking permission. That's help stop the whole sneak-ganking tricks based around inadvertant or ignorant "stealing", or entrapment. "FREE STUFF" cans etc. That sort of noob-baiting does nobody any favours, the more noobs we put off the more likely the game closes down in a couple of years.
Tinian Singh	Posted - 2007.04.21 15:40:00 - [76] Originally by: TheNorthwind One thing I'm not clear on- when you're probed out in a mission, does the pirate have the same restrictions on warping to deadspace as I do? I've only had this twice and both times I was on the ball so I escaped- the level 4 by my main agents has a pretty sustained pirate camp so if I'm missioning up there I watch my back constantly. But I couldn't tell you if they were deadspace missions or not. If they can warp directly into deadspace (which I doubt) then that's clearly gamebreaking. If they have to work their way through gates then what's the issue? You should get plenty of warning on them unless you're inattentive or AFK in which case, more fool you. Yes pirates have the same 'restrictions' for warping into deadspace. Just these 'restrictions' actually work to the pirates advantage, since he only needs the faintest of signals on you to find you. Due to the nature of deadspace, even a signal with a deviation of 1000s of kilometers will land him smack on your gate, while it 'should' land him at a distance to you and make him drop another probe to pinpoint you. And that very thing is imho the only real issue with probing. If we got back min and max scan deviation values like they were before the probing change, that would solve pretty much all problems in one fell swoop.

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