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Radcjk	Posted - 2007.04.05 01:25:00 - [1] Edited by: Radcjk on 05/04/2007 01:29:09 One of my biggest attractions to Eve a little over a year ago was the community. I generally despised most MMO's due to the lack of role play in it(which I can deal with), but more importantly the general parade of teeny bopper sci-fi / fantasy geeks, hard core geeks and not fans, who have nothing better to do than grind levels and expirience while some people have real lives and generally make the game unfun for any one else with more ivestment time in real life. Then I was introduced to Eve Online. Single server, growing community, my first publicity on it was the gigantic Guiding Hand Soical Club coupe and how it made 4 pages in PC Gaming, the pirates, the fact that player actions affected the games story and direction... still I was wary. Eve's learning curve is steep, which does require some form of attention span and one might hope intillegence to learn and play well. As a noob people were helpfull. Not just nice guys and carebears, but the pirates and and killers as well. I was educated in Eve by people that had seriously destroyed me in the time it takes to down a shot, and most would give me lessons in what had happened. Veto, Tun Dragon, and Muffin Factory to name a few. Where has all that gone ? I'm older, wiser, expierienced, and skilled now and I win some and I lose some but I watch the local chats or the forums and its hard not to feel some sense of disapointment. The trolls and flames are getting out of control and the ability to remain friendly with folk, even as you add one another to the KOS list and count pod kills, is horrible. One might ask wether a pilgrim is better served by an EAN II or a Damage Control II and get such an answer as "omg newb u dont know how 2 fit. repackage and sell it" A person might post their first kill, earned with pride after a month of getting ganked, and be smacked down because their silly kestrel only killed a rifter. RP style stories are flamed, questions and acomplishments are flamed, and while some are seriously deserving of their treatment it tends to be the same forum warriors trolling constantly. Its hard to find some one who sticks out as helpfull any more (Props to Dark Elf and Karlamange (sp)...they'll kill you, ransom you, flame you when needed, but theyve stood out time and time again with their helpfullness) So what happened to the community ? When and where did it require that a game as cut throat as eve required every one else be dumber than the man posting at the very moment ? Why are all non pirates carebears, what the hell is a gankbear, and who coined some thing so stupid ? Why are real men in 0.0 but I see more action in low sec ? Its an endless battle of egos and opinions, e-peens and 1337 wars... But where has that community gone ? This isn't meant for flames and the like, though I'm sure a few of the regulars will respond on principle.. but what it is it that keeps folks attracted to eve other than PvP (or lack of and all associated aurguments). Whose stood out to you most for their help ? And why can't people enjoy the eve, kill each other, and not keep their egos in check ? Discuss, please.
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.05 01:30:00 - [2] New people joined in droves. --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
01101100011101 INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.04.05 01:33:00 - [3] 5 minute attention span syndrome. EVE is no longer a self contained and semi regulating community. Less power players compared to the numbers of generally increased population and a change in the type of subscriber generally drawn to the game. A trend.
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.05 01:39:00 - [4] A rule of the internet seems that Old is always better than the new. as people seem to blame fallacies on the new members when really it is a combination of the old changing and the new comming in. Nothing has really changed You just had your eyes closed
Radcjk	Posted - 2007.04.05 01:54:00 - [5] Edited by: Radcjk on 05/04/2007 01:51:08 Thread Winner- At no point and time did I say older was better. When did I complain or question the current basis of how the -game- worked now, as compared to the past ? Nor did I blame Eve's fallacies on a newer community compared to the 'old' one. I commented on the -people-, the community at large, the changes it has undergone over time. While I admit these things will be affected by time it is very different than "I wish Kestrels still had cruise missles" and "Nerf Nanos" Please discuss said changes in more detail, or at adress least who'm you are replying too, so that if your point is indeed valid it doesn't appear to be one of the pointless forums post mentioned previously.
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:02:00 - [6] \o Hi rad! ---------------- If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a browser that supports .png.
Mister Locke Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:03:00 - [7] I agree very much that the community appears to be getting more childish. I've only been playing on and off for around 2 years but its obvious even to me that the forums have been dumbing down. The latest bore seems to be the wave of /b/tards who invade threads. To those people - you're all about 2 years beyond being cool. Just give up. There used to be a lot of posts from old timers who were very helpful; people such as Avon, Rod Blaine etc. You hardly see a thing from them now and really I'm not surprised. They're probably sick of how dumb the forums have become' --- --Any sufficiently advanced bureaucracy is indistinguishable from molasses.--
Lightof God Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:11:00 - [8] some of us stopped caring and since the community has been steadily been getting more childish though if you know where to look you can still find a bunch of stand up guys. But there are times when i just say screw it drop to their level and you know vent some steam. I know what you mean by the feeling you get, it kinda sucks now I can even remember when i felt the feeling start to switch up but hey if we act like the old 'chivalrous' us stuff might change for the better.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:14:00 - [9] The game itself is designed to favor the agressor, the scammer, the thief, any sort of bad meta-gaming habits, and yes, the griefer. That sort of behavior tends to feed on itself and snowball. Why then, is anyone even vaguely suprised at the amount of vitriol present in game and on boards?
Orange Speceis Destructive Infleunce	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Radcjk But where has that community gone ? This isn't meant for flames and the like, though I'm sure a few of the regulars will respond on principle.. but what it is it that keeps folks attracted to eve other than PvP (or lack of and all associated aurguments). Whose stood out to you most for their help ? And why can't people enjoy the eve, kill each other, and not keep their egos in check ? Discuss, please. Well a lot of the older players and corps have gone inactive due to the perception of god favoring the infidels for years and generally losing taste for eve. The most recent of which is people not getting banned for expoilting certain complex's even worse than others did in the past, but in the past they all caught bans. Insert random teflon flame here, as I'm even too lazy to think of something witty with my lame alt.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Soporo The game itself is designed to allow for the agressor, the scammer, the thief, any sort of bad meta-gaming habits, and yes, the griefer. That sort of behavior tends to feed on itself and snowball. Why then, is anyone even vaguely suprised at the amount of vitriol present in game and on boards? fixed Just because you dont participate in any of these does not mean they are bad, or that the people that do these things are bad in real life. Its a game some people choose to steal rather than work for their isk. The real reason your seeing changes is the population explosion. With more people your bound to see changes, there are still lots of good people in eve who take the time to help new players, and have real discussion. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
Donkee Punch	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:54:00 - [12] Back in the day when breaking 10K players was a HUGE thing, Eve was very different.. you still had the fugly Muppetoids true.. but at least the majority of the community was rather cool.. Sadly now things have changed... mechanics have encouraged freebie empire war deccing station GankFests. Lagtastic pod happy Knuckleshufflers who crow in local and on the forums how UberL33T they are... A general shift in game play from "lets have fun" to "lets see how we can exploit and skrew everyone" philosophy.. It's fast becoming WoW in space.. shudder Can we as a community fix it? Not without some help from the Gods of CCP... exploits and lagkills let the lazy get away with murder..and the few decent souls try to make the best of it.. but for how long? -=Flame On=-
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:55:00 - [13] You can dominate eve without fitting firing a single shot (on another player - excuse the fact that some missioning is a good idea) miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
mafesto Minmatar Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:56:00 - [14] its the nature of MMO's, and this one everyone is on the same server, which makes it even worse
DragonRiderTao	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:04:00 - [15] Originally by: mafesto its the nature of MMO's, and this one everyone is on the same server, which makes it even worse I think its the grass is greener on the other side effect, the fact that we like to romanticize the past. Everyone who was a newb wanted to fly a Battleship with all the T2 fittings, but when they get there they realize that T1 fittings on a frigate are better because you will go bankrupt if you keep losing better stuff. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:18:00 - [16] I've been playing and forum whoring for a year now. That isn't terribly long, but for whatever that limited perspective is worth, the forum environment seems no worse now than it was when I started. Also, I can't say it's worse than some other corporate MMO forums I've seen, and I think it's at least a little better. There is probably the same percentage of trolls (Both intentional and otherwise.) but there are a lot more great posters than I've seen elsewhere. OTOH, even if it's not the worst forum, it's still disgustingly bad too much of the time. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:40:00 - [17] I definately do not think the forums have degenerated at all. I just think the stakes are higher. Some of the biggest smackers I have seen are beta players and the 2 month old noob who bough a 40 mil SP player. They are the same immature a** in real life.
Reven Darklight Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:40:00 - [18] As somebody who is new to EVE and new to mass online games in general, so new infact that the difference bettween newb and noob had to be explained to me, I agree and disagree with your post. I've read a few threats on this board and yes i can certain see where people attack on another, but I have never, as far as I'm aware been attacks for my newbish questions or approach to the game. As for people who are are/where very helpful to me in learning the game I point any other new people and even old people who are disillusioned with the community to my first ever threat http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=493834 A lot of people suggested very good idea and generally were very helpful, admittedly I myself posed a lot in that threat, but i think that helps my point, not once was i attacked for not knowing some basic things.
AirWalker Amarr Galactic Response Team	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:41:00 - [19] Edited by: AirWalker on 05/04/2007 03:38:13 newer players that joined and started *****ing about EVERYTHING ..... i'm not against new players at all ...i'll help the ones that aren't arrogant and just want things to work their way and be rich within 10 minutes of starting. once that happened the community went downhill i've pretty much given up talking to anyone with the new bloodlines EDIT: same thing happened with original CS it was a nice community fun everyone was happy then more people played and it turned into an epeen competition
Tecro Nashota Inako Industries	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:42:00 - [20] EvE has been overrun by epeens and metagamers indeed. Hurts doesn't it When I started playing this was a game with mature, nice and helpful players. In the last months the flaming, griefing, chest beating and whatnot has gone rampant. There seems to be a new group of players, dunno where they come from, I know nothing about other games. But there seem to be mainly two new groups, the first the fluffiest of carebears and the second the counterstrikers. The 'new' carebears are just absolutely convinced that this is a singleplayer game and defend 'their' game with the ferocity of lion ! And we are pure griefers and pk'ers and a buch of RL scum. CCP must have been giving a wrong impression somewhere. The other group are a bunch of 15 year old kids, that care about nothing else then winning and talking down on everybody. Basically their behavior shows their age. And there are certain things that certainly don't make it any better : They don't want to grow but instead want to start with fully specced chars, going directly to lvl4 in their Drake and waving their stats and calcs. This in combination with GTC's and chartranfers makes it even worse. You don't know who is who anymore, is it a noob, a vet ? And CCP seems to have completely chosen their side, their metagaming endorsement (and by not forbidding, you endorse it, if it's not forbidden it's allowed that's how the human race works, looks like CCP misssed that one too) is making it for everybody a living hell. Logintraps, logging, swithing corps to avoid war, insta wardecs, scams due to broken gamemechanics, etc. Everything that used to be an exploit is allowed these days. It looks like CCP is getting in some serious financial trouble and now need to do anything to get more people to play. No matter what is changes the game into. CCP has lost itself. Hey the even gave Griefer Inc. an interview
AirWalker Amarr Galactic Response Team	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Tecro Nashota The other group are a bunch of 15 year old kids, that care about nothing else then winning and talking down on everybody. Basically their behavior shows their age. CCP has lost itself. to be fair there's a lot of non-15 y/o's out there that do that too but are in the same situation and good quote on the ccp thing
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.05 03:49:00 - [22] Edited by: Del Narveux on 05/04/2007 03:47:55 Agreed that its the population. Its not that new players are bad or something, far from it 99.9999% are awesome guys. But when eve was a niche game with a really small population, the tools who play MMOG's purely to publicly e-peen about how theyre more 1337 than (insert large number) other gamers wont show up, because theres nore of tham dratted n00bz to whine about in games like EQ and WoW. But now we have more people, were a bigger blob on the gaming insustry map so more of them trickle in, and the nature of the internet is a tiny minority of very outspoken individuals can make a mess of things. edit: but dont blame CCP for making a game that appeals to a wide audience, its not their fault theyre successful But CCP, could you guys implement some sort of manual forum ignore list to complement the one in game? Killfiles are your friends in any large online community _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.04.05 04:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Del Narveux edit: but dont blame CCP for making a game that appeals to a wide audience, its not their fault theyre successful But CCP, could you guys implement some sort of manual forum ignore list to complement the one in game? Killfiles are your friends in any large online community Too true :) Ignore has become my best buddy, and EVE is great, and the people who've mattered from day 1 when I entered the game are still regular contacts, and despite being a mostly solo player, i've got a pretty extensive network of contacts who extend beyond the e-peen-ness of your typical player base. Unfortunately, if a good game is to survive, the e-peens need to have their subscription fees relieved from their wallets.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.05 04:13:00 - [24] I'd say the main reason is because of POS warfare, EVE has become a much more serious game. Before POS warfare, an entire alliance could stop playing for a week and lose very little. Even if their station was taken, they could fly back in and take it back in no time. PvP was about fun and ganks, not about massive sieges. Today, in order to win, you need to be hardcore. The internet does indeed need to be serious business. And so those who have stayed as part of the 0.0 community have been forced to become more and more dedicated just to survive. And it has spilled over onto the forums, and the rest of the community. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio (back up, new address!)
Onchas Erivvia The Andromeda Directorate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.05 04:30:00 - [25] Answer to OP is simple: game got big. Lots of new people came and there wasn't time for the culture to take hold. Also, the moderators didn't do enough to keep things in line. I'm sure they were overwhelmed as there wouldn't have been enough moderators already in place to cover the increase in forum traffic. I fear game communities have a critical mass before "buzz" in the community starts becoming viral. I think we're getting there fast. With more developer outreach, more actual moderating of forum conversations, you'll start to see these forums become less and less useful and an increasingly negative vibe until it becomes destructive. Forums matter. Smart Community Managers know that and can convince the project managers of it. More efforts to regulate debates and deal with people whose sole intentions are to jab sticks in people's eyes will have an impact on the quality of discourse and how productive and valuable the forums can be. It does take a fair amount of effort, but I strongly believe it's worth it in helping to nurture and maintain a vibrant community. MMPOLG developers are slowly getting around to recognizing the significance the community buzz has in determining the success of their game, and how important the forums are to that process. ------------------------------------------ 'Teh Onchinator' Personal Assistant to MrsPitman
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.05 05:00:00 - [26] Its pretty easy to see how it happens, its handed down from older players to the new generation. Example: I've been playing 6 months now. I am a noob. I admit it, relish in it and don't care if others think down on me for that. When I started EvE was cool, it was dangerous, it was fun. And there was nothign else like it. So I start playing. I see oddities in how the rules work. I ask about it in the forums and get told things like "Go back to WoW", "EvE is a PvP game, deal with it", even things like "Noob, we do it because we can". I see my corp get ripped apart by a wardec that we have no choice of getting out of and mention it, same responses as above. I see miners get ganked, same responses as above. I see attacks specifically targetted to individuals for no other reason than they exist and get told the above. After a while you get a little jaded in your outlook. EvE is no longer bright and sparkly and interesting. Now its dirty grimey and seriously tarnished. But its STILL fun and the only thing of its type. So you troll the forums, play in NPC corps to protect yourself, keep your PC Corp entities carefully seperate so nothing you say comes back on them (which in any other game is called griefing, taking out of game items and targetting someone in game for them). And you argue what causes you think are correct and defend your ability to play as the game is advertised against those that think its supposed to be played a different way. THEN you get to read a post from one of those same gankers that caused you and people you know so much grief months before whinign about a game mechanic and calling it unfair. Its so ironic you almost have to sharpen the teeth and bite. You are still ages behind them in abilities and couldn't fight them in game, but you sure can bite out of game. to be continued...... <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.05 05:05:00 - [27] Honestly, CCP has created this problem of community all by themselves. Every time someone ganks someone in game, or exploits a game mechanic, smack talks on the boards, insults new(er) players, ignores griefing petitions, etc they foster this type of situation. I come from the NWN scheme. Probably 3/4 of the posts on these boards would be cause for warnings and bans if they were on Bioware's boards. So many things that are considered "legitimate" in this game would be cause for banning on even the PvP arena servers in NWN. This game fosters griefers and people that have to show their EPeen is bigger than someone else's. Its CCP's fault that its like this, its CCP's responsibility to fix it. They won't because of some vision of a dark and dirty universe and that will eventually be the death of EvE. You can have dark and dirty, warfare and constant non-consentual PvP and still maintain a server of people who are friendly and boards that are civil, but CCP doesn't seem to get that hence won't enforce it. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Kylana Darkfate Minmatar	Posted - 2007.04.05 06:13:00 - [28] The community here on Eve is just as bad and in a lot of cases even worse than WoW's as of late. I simply cannot believe CCP let the best MMORPG community turn into one of the worst. The only place WoW's community is worse than Eve's is on the PvP servers. PvP in general attracts the most immature kiddies with epeen issues. -------------------------------- "You see, no one would surrender to the Dread Pirate Westley." ...Well how about the Dread Pirate Kylana? ^_^
Ket Halpak ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.05 06:22:00 - [29] The eve forums are by far the worst I have ever been a apart of. If you post ANYTHING at all, you will get insulted. Hell, just for advertising my new blog 'Rantings of a Carebear' is was flammed and called arrogant within 30 seconds of posting. Although a certain part of my poorly written blog is flamable, the person in question didn't even take the time to read the original post. I mean, damn, do people just read these forums and insult others just to make themselves feel good? I lernt of eve from a forum where if you acted in anyway like you do in this forum, you could be permabanned, and this is exactly what this forum needs. A good lockdown by the mods. _____________________________________ Check out my poorly written blog at RantingsofaCarebear.blogspot.com
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.05 06:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Paladineguru on 05/04/2007 06:38:59 I think a lot of the old community is still here. the problem isnt only new players either. I think Dark shikari might have hit it on the head. overall there appears to be less of a fun factor after a certain point, and it becomes more hardcore and serious. especially in 0.0. gone are the days of carefree fun. its all about hardcore alarm clock setting for ops now. and who can siege out the enemy the longest. while it may be a more realistic warfare scene. the attitudes it has fostered havnt helped. Also the percieved support by god of the Bob alliance and there own history of arrogance, smack, and general harshness on these boards and the way ccp apparently thinks theyre the best. has in part probably done a lot to help this attitude also. I mean if ccps favorite children are such prats, maybe the new crowd coming in that seems so counterstrike'ish will win thier favor, If they can be snarkish enough, or at least thats what it seems like .

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