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Jayne Tamm	Posted - 2007.04.08 14:43:00 - [1] Edited by: Jayne Tamm on 08/04/2007 14:44:43 Edited by: Jayne Tamm on 08/04/2007 14:42:21 just wondering how good are assault ships really? im thinkin of trainin for them.....more likely the hawk or harpy (probably the hawk), but want to know wot their place is in the eve universe. i currently have a battleship, which i love...but cant use many t2 stuff yet, and my skill points are still quite low...so was thinkin of downgrading and working my way up throught the ships as i max them out. im gona keep my battleship so i can go on lvl4 missions with my corp mates...but i wanted to know how good say the hawk/ harpy is? and can they run in lvl4 missions in a gang along with other bc's and bs's? also..how useful are they in gang pvp situations?
ArtemisEntreri Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.08 14:50:00 - [2] They're decent anti-support but they have a hard time evading heavier ship fire so a interceptor would fill any role they do and better in pvp. But npcing they're nice for killing frigates for your mates.
Jayne Tamm	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:12:00 - [3] i thought coz of their scan signature they would be pretty hard to hit? unless missiles are being fired at you. also...do they not get called primary often? i thought that the emphasis would be on takin the big guys down first....and interceptors dont do as much damage do they?...im lookin for a ship that would be agood place to build up t2 modules...and also do a fair bit of damage...which they can do, right?
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:18:00 - [4] No one calls assault frigs primary cause they're damage output is fairly low, e.g: the Hawk probably tops out around 100 dps, and a Blasterthron will manage about 4 times that. They are good for anti-frig duties though, and packs of them can ravage larger ships. Interceptors aren't really meant to do huge damage, they are meant to speedtank, and to catch other ships in chases and scramble them for the rest of the gang to kill. --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
VanNostrum	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:22:00 - [5] Possible to get 200+dps on retribution, or 300+dps on wolf with full skills. Too bad they lack med slots, but awesome dps in gangs.
Nether Haze	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:22:00 - [6] Sure, I wouldnt call a AF primary, but id be damn ****ed if noone was shooting at the nasty ishkurs spewing out drones, heh
Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.08 15:32:00 - [7] Hawk is crappy, I would advise not to. For PVP harpy is fun.. spike lets you do 90-100 dps at 75-100km with nice tracking.
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:22:00 - [8] The Assault Frigate in a PvP role has one purpose. That is to kill enemy tacklers and light support. This role is the key job, and in fact all the AF's in the game are pretty good at it. The Harpy excels at hitting the targets at extreme range. While the Hawk equiped with percision missiles can almost 1 volly an intercepter at med to close range. The AF is designed to kill other frigs, nothing more, and a good AF pilot in your gang can me the difference between a gang member who was called "primary" living, or dying. its that simple.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:25:00 - [9] Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:22:14 AF sucks for pvp. For pvp train inty or stabber. Stabber will own any af 1v1, it will also do a hell of a better job at gunning down enemy tacklers. An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser yet with frigate sized tank and guns. Not recommended. Also, all those people posting inflated dps figures bore me to tears. However, if you need to get some ratting done in 0.0 etc, then AF's are superb, especially the retribution vs DB/Sansha rats :) N.F.F. Recruitment
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:26:00 - [10] Originally by: Marquis Dean No one calls assault frigs primary cause they're damage output is fairly low, e.g: the Hawk probably tops out around 100 dps, and a Blasterthron will manage about 4 times that. They are good for anti-frig duties though, and packs of them can ravage larger ships. Interceptors aren't really meant to do huge damage, they are meant to speedtank, and to catch other ships in chases and scramble them for the rest of the gang to kill. Ok like i posted earlier, the AF can and will not compare to the Dps of a battleship. That is not what it is designed for. It has a role in pvp. much like a blackbird or a tempest, or a commandship. we all have roles. Trust me if you get a crow orbiting u at 20km and he is scraming u, and next thing u know you are getting fired on by everything. your gonna hope there was an AF there to pop that crow asap
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:29:00 - [11] Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:26:40 but that's the point, the af will never catch that crow. If you want dedicated anti-frig support, then that's what vagabonds, mwding huginns and stabbers are for. N.F.F. Recruitment
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Savros Hunturas Originally by: Marquis Dean No one calls assault frigs primary cause they're damage output is fairly low, e.g: the Hawk probably tops out around 100 dps, and a Blasterthron will manage about 4 times that. They are good for anti-frig duties though, and packs of them can ravage larger ships. Interceptors aren't really meant to do huge damage, they are meant to speedtank, and to catch other ships in chases and scramble them for the rest of the gang to kill. Ok like i posted earlier, the AF can and will not compare to the Dps of a battleship. That is not what it is designed for. It has a role in pvp. much like a blackbird or a tempest, or a commandship. we all have roles. Trust me if you get a crow orbiting u at 20km and he is scraming u, and next thing u know you are getting fired on by everything. your gonna hope there was an AF there to pop that crow asap ... I know. Is that not exactly what I just said? --- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait will explain when i have the time i promise
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:22:14 AF sucks for pvp. For pvp train inty or stabber. Stabber will own any af 1v1, it will also do a hell of a better job at gunning down enemy tacklers. An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser yet with frigate sized tank and guns. Not recommended. Also, all those people posting inflated dps figures bore me to tears. However, if you need to get some ratting done in 0.0 etc, then AF's are superb, especially the retribution vs DB/Sansha rats :) they day a stabber does a better job shooting down intys at from range is the day i laugh. Harpy is leathal from 95KM
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:26:40 but that's the point, the af will never catch that crow. If you want dedicated anti-frig support, then that's what vagabonds, mwding huginns and stabbers are for. ok, well if you want a vang just drop the 150mil or so for it. ill stick with my 14mil harpy. and AF's arnt made for catching stuff. they are made for killing the catchers.
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 21:48:00 - [15] was getting off-topic but ok To the OP, AF's are great for doing missions. i did every lvl 2 mission in the game with my Harpy, and almost every lvl 3. they are great ships and perfect for pve. The also do a good job at pvp when it comes a support role. just dont expect on killing a BS or BC in solo combat with 1.
Talen Kross T Miners	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Savros Hunturas was getting off-topic but ok To the OP, AF's are great for doing missions. i did every lvl 2 mission in the game with my Harpy, and almost every lvl 3. they are great ships and perfect for pve. The also do a good job at pvp when it comes a support role. just dont expect on killing a BS or BC in solo combat with 1. AFs are over kill for level 2s, hell a shield extended rifter can do level 2s. Afs are good for roaming gangs. The whole fun factor.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:26:40 but that's the point, the af will never catch that crow. If you want dedicated anti-frig support, then that's what vagabonds, mwding huginns and stabbers are for. Or if you're a lower skilled character, grab a destroyer. The Thrasher in particular. //Maya
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 23:31:20 Originally by: Savros Hunturas Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:22:14 AF sucks for pvp. For pvp train inty or stabber. Stabber will own any af 1v1, it will also do a hell of a better job at gunning down enemy tacklers. An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser yet with frigate sized tank and guns. Not recommended. Also, all those people posting inflated dps figures bore me to tears. However, if you need to get some ratting done in 0.0 etc, then AF's are superb, especially the retribution vs DB/Sansha rats :) they day a stabber does a better job shooting down intys at from range is the day i laugh. Harpy is leathal from 95KM The day a harpy kills my inty from 95km will never come, because when i notice it trying to do that i will re-warp after which i will swiftly go straight to that harpy and pwn it in the face. Also from 95km range a Muninn or Rupture (albeit a bit closer) with t2 guns is much more lethal than your harpy throwing sticks and stones :D N.F.F. Recruitment
Flaming sambuka Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.08 23:38:00 - [19] Why has everyone gotta post there lifestory. Harpy and hawk suck. They can be used for helping in missions if your that lame. Inty>AF in a gang.
Phish1 Liberty Forces Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.09 01:44:00 - [20] ishkur wins eve seriously, use warrior IIs (and i dont mean 2 valk IIs and 3 warrior IIs, i mean 7 warrior IIs) and inties will run or die, frigs will die, and most AF's will die unless they have natural resists to explosive) ishkur in gang is unbelivably good, able to tackle, anti-tackle, take a bit of dmg... does pretty much everything well...
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.04.09 01:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 23:31:20 Originally by: Savros Hunturas Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:22:14 AF sucks for pvp. For pvp train inty or stabber. Stabber will own any af 1v1, it will also do a hell of a better job at gunning down enemy tacklers. An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser yet with frigate sized tank and guns. Not recommended. Also, all those people posting inflated dps figures bore me to tears. However, if you need to get some ratting done in 0.0 etc, then AF's are superb, especially the retribution vs DB/Sansha rats :) they day a stabber does a better job shooting down intys at from range is the day i laugh. Harpy is leathal from 95KM The day a harpy kills my inty from 95km will never come, because when i notice it trying to do that i will re-warp after which i will swiftly go straight to that harpy and pwn it in the face. Also from 95km range a Muninn or Rupture (albeit a bit closer) with t2 guns is much more lethal than your harpy throwing sticks and stones :D Please Ryysa When you notice Harpy is shooting at you, most likely you are half way to hell. And they usualy dont fly solo. Thay also have few times more resists you have and also more DPS you have in your inty. And please tell me how to warp from 95km. For L1-2 missions they are great, posibly even most l3s anf for DED complexes
Vanadar	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:04:00 - [22] Harpy Light Neutron Blaster II [80xVoid S] Light Neutron Blaster II [80xVoid S] Light Neutron Blaster II [80xVoid S] Light Neutron Blaster II [80xVoid S] Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain Gistii A-Type Small Shield Booster 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler I Photon Scattering Field II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Alpha Reactor Control: Diagnostic System Rigs : Empty Slot \ Empty Slot \ 1120 shield, 6.29/s, E/T/K/Ex=55/79/69/59 571 armor, E/T/K/Ex=59/86/62/10 438.28124180436134 cap, +8.04/s, -12.697/s 552.0 m/s 172.3 DPS 172 DPS is pretty kickass. The Assault Frigate is honestly godlike if you fit it as such... You can pretty much kill and non anti-frig specified t1 ship inculing BSes. I've killed many in mine till i moved to the blaster Eagle. Amazign ships those are.
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Phish1 ishkur wins eve seriously, use warrior IIs (and i dont mean 2 valk IIs and 3 warrior IIs, i mean 7 warrior IIs) and inties will run or die, frigs will die, and most AF's will die unless they have natural resists to explosive) ishkur in gang is unbelivably good, able to tackle, anti-tackle, take a bit of dmg... does pretty much everything well... your completely right there. The Ishkur is the only AF i avoid like the plague. The only way to kill them is to pop their drones before your run out of cap. And ya The Ishkur is an amazing heavy tackler with some serious survieablity with dps to boot. Be, All That You Can Be. In Your Harpy!
Savros Hunturas Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 23:31:20 Originally by: Savros Hunturas Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:22:14 AF sucks for pvp. For pvp train inty or stabber. Stabber will own any af 1v1, it will also do a hell of a better job at gunning down enemy tacklers. An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser yet with frigate sized tank and guns. Not recommended. Also, all those people posting inflated dps figures bore me to tears. However, if you need to get some ratting done in 0.0 etc, then AF's are superb, especially the retribution vs DB/Sansha rats :) they day a stabber does a better job shooting down intys at from range is the day i laugh. Harpy is leathal from 95KM The day a harpy kills my inty from 95km will never come, because when i notice it trying to do that i will re-warp after which i will swiftly go straight to that harpy and pwn it in the face. Also from 95km range a Muninn or Rupture (albeit a bit closer) with t2 guns is much more lethal than your harpy throwing sticks and stones :D ok look, im not trying to make some huge deal about Dps. I KNOW THAT A AF CAN NOT DO MORE DPS THAN A CRUISER!!! i never once said it could. all im saying is that an AF has a major fleet and gang role. so im sorry but im not gonna get into a ****ing contest with ya. Be, All That You Can Be. In Your Harpy!
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Ryysa An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser I'm only familiar with minnie AF's - the jag and the wolf - and I can say with all certainty that the above statement definitely does not apply to them.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:27:00 - [26] Edited by: Ryysa on 09/04/2007 02:23:50 Originally by: Elain Reverse Please Ryysa When you notice Harpy is shooting at you, most likely you are half way to hell. And they usualy dont fly solo. Thay also have few times more resists you have and also more DPS you have in your inty. And please tell me how to warp from 95km. No, you are not, it does pathetically crap damage. How do resists matter if it can't hit me? Just a question of time. Also, tell me what happens if a harpy jumps into a gatecamp with an inty and if an inty jumps into a gatecamp with an inty? Which one warps out? Which one dies? Originally by: Phish1 ishkur wins eve seriously, use warrior IIs (and i dont mean 2 valk IIs and 3 warrior IIs, i mean 7 warrior IIs) and inties will run or die, frigs will die, and most AF's will die unless they have natural resists to explosive) ishkur in gang is unbelivably good, able to tackle, anti-tackle, take a bit of dmg... does pretty much everything well... And one single cruiser will pwn it for a fraction of the cost. Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Ryysa An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser I'm only familiar with minnie AF's - the jag and the wolf - and I can say with all certainty that the above statement definitely does not apply to them. Ever flew stabber with evasive maneuvering 5 and some agility mods? I mean honestly, I don't have anything against af's, I think they are great for PvE. Just stop making up "roles" for it for pvp, they have no role other than being an isk sink. You could say that a covetor has a role in pvp because it can field drones. The question is about cost efficiency. Everything an AF can do in PvP a cruiser does better at only a fraction of the cost, while not being less survivable. N.F.F. Recruitment
Durindana Gallente Solar Wind Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 23:31:20 Originally by: Savros Hunturas Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/04/2007 21:22:14 AF sucks for pvp. For pvp train inty or stabber. Stabber will own any af 1v1, it will also do a hell of a better job at gunning down enemy tacklers. An AF is a frigate with the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser yet with frigate sized tank and guns. Not recommended. Also, all those people posting inflated dps figures bore me to tears. However, if you need to get some ratting done in 0.0 etc, then AF's are superb, especially the retribution vs DB/Sansha rats :) they day a stabber does a better job shooting down intys at from range is the day i laugh. Harpy is leathal from 95KM The day a harpy kills my inty from 95km will never come, because when i notice it trying to do that i will re-warp after which i will swiftly go straight to that harpy and pwn it in the face. Also from 95km range a Muninn or Rupture (albeit a bit closer) with t2 guns is much more lethal than your harpy throwing sticks and stones :D Is there any way to /ignore ryssa's posts? She's constantly saying stupid things
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:38:00 - [28] Now the above would be trolling. If you feel that my posts are offensive and offtopic please e-mail the mods and kindly ask them to moderate me. Perhaps we play the game for different reasons. When I see a ship, I don't go "oh it looks cool". I go hmmm how cost-effective would it be to use this in pvp? N.F.F. Recruitment
eXtas BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:38:00 - [29] af's are totaly pointless unless u are npc'ing
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:41:00 - [30] Ignore the guy directly above me. Anytime someone starts making extremely generalized statements about an entire class of ships, its pretty safe to assume that they have no idea what they are talking about. AFs are not as good at tackling as interceptors and they do suffer from not having 4 real bonuses, but they can be evil little buggers in the right hands. They make great escorts and are ideal damage dealers in small frig gangs.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 02:48:00 - [31] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 Ignore the guy directly above me. Anytime someone starts making extremely generalized statements about an entire class of ships, its pretty safe to assume that they have no idea what they are talking about. AFs are not as good at tackling as interceptors and they do suffer from not having 4 real bonuses, but they can be evil little buggers in the right hands. They make great escorts and are ideal damage dealers in small frig gangs. You see, that's where you miss the point. If you jump in a frig gang into a non-bubblecamp, let's see which ships will reliably warp away without being scrambled by interceptor: 1. Interceptors. 2. Frigates with an agility mod. Now, AF's get caught. So what's the point again of flying the AF in that situation where you could be sitting in a cruiser that costs less yet is more effective? Take a cruiser pilot and an AF pilot, give them an equal amount of isk to fit their ship, pit them in 1v1, who wins? What's the point of bringing an AF in frig gang when you could have a ceptor that does the same damage, however doesn't get caught in gatecamps? I'd dare to say that a neutron gank taranis does quite a lot of damage. N.F.F. Recruitment
Father Weebles North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 03:18:00 - [32] AFs have very limited roles in pvp. Sniper harpies and enyos are nice but way outclassed by the Eagle and Muninn. The only area where the AF excels is pve but generally aren't very good for pvp. "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.09 03:37:00 - [33] First off, you don't jump into gatecamps not knowing that they are there. Now if you're jumping into a gatecamp with the intention of busting it up, basing your strategy upon being able to instawarp out doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You're there to kill people and interceptors cannot deal the same amount of dps that AFs can (blaster iskur > blaster taranis) nor can they tank worth a damn if they get tackled. Now why would you not use a cruiser in place of a AF? Cruisers have a slower warp speed than AFs (3Au/s vs. 6 Au/s), they have larger signature radii, and are generally slower and less agile than AFs. All this makes them far more vulnerable to larger ships(BCs and BSs)and less able to keep up with a highly mobile gang. If some friendly interceptors had a BS or a BC tackled and needed some more dps to break its tank, I'd generally prefer to be in a AF rather than a cruiser. Cruisers are more on par with AF if you're just escorting larger ships, but they still more vulnerable to BS fire. As for your 1v1 argument, its irrelevant. I'm not going to fight a decently flown and fitted cruiser in an AF, just like I'm not going to go up against a good BC in most HACs. I'm flying the AF to better keep up with friendly interceptors, evade fire from big ships, and if I'm pulling escort shred any tacklers that get too close. Soloing cruisers is not what I'm going after.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 03:47:00 - [34] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 If some friendly interceptors had a BS or a BC tackled and needed some more dps to break its tank, I'd generally prefer to be in a AF rather than a cruiser. You are so clueless... A properly fitted BC will make mincemeat from an AF in seconds. Quote: Cruisers are more on par with AF if you're just escorting larger ships, but they still more vulnerable to BS fire. Clearly you forgot Mr. Nos. Last time I checked cruisers had more cap and more hitpoints. Do you know why people run frig gangs? So that you can't camp them in. You can't camp in an inty, but you can camp in an AF. That is why an AF doesn't have a place in a frig gang. And 6AU vs 3AU matters in VERY VERY few cases, as does the sig radius. I know you really want your AF to be good and all that, but it's not, not for the price it costs. If AF's were about 3 times cheaper and in general at least cost slightly less than a cruiser, I'd agree with you. But as it stands now, you get no insurance from losing your AF, while a cruiser is much more useful and cheaper... N.F.F. Recruitment
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:12:00 - [35] A properly fitted BC will shred a cruiser just as fast if not faster than AF. I know this because I happen to fly BCs a lot and am regularly shocked by just how quickly cruisers die. The extra hp and cap simply doesn't mean jack when faced with 6x 425mm ACs or the equivalent firepower. An AF at least has the chance the evade the fire for a few seconds and get the hell out of dodge should things turn ugly. And if you want to be able to escape a non-bubble camp in an AF, all it takes is a decent istab. I'll admit that stabber is exceptionally nimble for a cruiser and will definetly beat out an AF in raw speed, but its still vulnerable to bigger ships and can't do some of the things that AFs can.
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:18:00 - [36] In reply to Ryysa's comments... wolf, 150mm ac's, MWD, barrage, 400mm Plate, Hard's thats 2100 HP with SICK resistances. Sig radius = 40 with the MWD off. Nos isn't an issue, it can shoot without cap. With my skills my falloff on my wolf is 10.5K/M, meaning i can happily sit at 12k/m and shoot a bs without being webbed, and they have NO chance of hitting me. next point, cost. Wolf, 10mil, guns, 2mil, other fittign 3mil tops. total 15mil i do the same thing in my stabber... stabber, 5mil, guns, 9mil minimum, other gear (t2 LSE inc.) 5mil, total 16mil Thats very general - but when you take into account that a missile cruiser, eg. a caracal will shred a stabber. But heavy missiles do reduced damage to frigates. So the wolf wins again. This is just one example of an AF - but similar results are possible with most AF's if the person setting them up doesnt think like they are setting up a normal frigate.
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:37:00 - [37] Anywhere outside of the wrong end of a bubble camp, AF's are great. In those situations, a wolf or a jaguar with an AB instead of a MWD presents a very small, fast target with great resistances and great damage potential against frigs and cruisers. Even if webbed, the can permarun the AB and maintain enough speed and small enough sig radius to evade most cruiser fire.
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:43:00 - [38] enyo- mass dps 4 neutron II ab- webber 2 mag stab II 1 tracking mod II 1 repper the joys of 150 damage per shot every 2 seconds for 4 guns! Originally by: inSpirAcy Don't worry, it's the bullying culture EVE attracts. You don't actually have to make a point if you get enough people to laugh with you.
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:45:00 - [39] Thats a straight up lie That is basically a ratting setup - and i once used it against a Myrmidon that invaded my home ratting system, best i could get was really 50-60 damage per gun. on HULL you might 150 damage with a well aimed, up to 300 with wrecking, but beyond that it just doesnt happen.
Tista	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:47:00 - [40] Originally by: Maeltstome Thats a straight up lie That is basically a ratting setup - and i once used it against a Myrmidon that invaded my home ratting system, best i could get was really 50-60 damage per gun. on HULL you might 150 damage with a well aimed, up to 300 with wrecking, but beyond that it just doesnt happen. O.o no i think you will find that 150 damage per shot against fair resists is fairly easy to accomplish. 13x damage mod on 20 damage = 150ish against resists Originally by: inSpirAcy Don't worry, it's the bullying culture EVE attracts. You don't actually have to make a point if you get enough people to laugh with you.
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.09 04:51:00 - [41] on HULL maybe - but i have it in a feckin music video, that exact setup, with 1 difference, and thats the tracking mod was a thermal resistance plate. I got several Mil in gunnery aswell... baring in mind a Myrm his a massive sig radius and normal resistances, i think its a fair indication of its damage.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 06:21:00 - [42] Originally by: Maeltstome In reply to Ryysa's comments... wolf, 150mm ac's, MWD, barrage, 400mm Plate, Hard's thats 2100 HP with SICK resistances. This made me giggle like a schoolgirl. Against amarr maybe? Or do you call 10% explosive and 25% kinetic SICK resistances? Quote: Sig radius = 40 with the MWD off. Nos isn't an issue, it can shoot without cap. Right, and to do damage you need to go into webrange, when you're not moving your sig radius hardly matters. Quote: With my skills my falloff on my wolf is 10.5K/M, meaning i can happily sit at 12k/m and shoot a bs without being webbed, and they have NO chance of hitting me. At 12km your already pathetic damage is reduced by more than 50%. And Bs easily pwns you. Nos, drones, boom. Quote: next point, cost. Wolf, 10mil, guns, 2mil, other fittign 3mil tops. total 15mil i do the same thing in my stabber... stabber, 5mil, guns, 9mil minimum, other gear (t2 LSE inc.) 5mil, total 16mil Last time i checked wolf cost a bit more than 10m... maybe i need to check again. Also, I don't see why you need t2 LSE on stabber, it will outperform the wolf with stock t1 gear. Quote: Thats very general - but when you take into account that a missile cruiser, eg. a caracal will shred a stabber. But heavy missiles do reduced damage to frigates. So the wolf wins again. lol, caracal will pwn wolf in 3 volleys with t2 missiles. Quote: This is just one example of an AF - but similar results are possible with most AF's if the person setting them up doesnt think like they are setting up a normal frigate. Wow, plated wolf is so out of the box setup.. N.F.F. Recruitment
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.09 06:46:00 - [43] The last AF I had was a nicely fitted AC Jaguar with a passive shield tank and AB. It did a reasonable speed at close range and could live a good couple of minutes taking direct fire from a Raven. If you think AF's suck then you BLOW. Honest to goodness AF's not only do a good job of surviving in combat, they are also extremely enjoyable to fly. Tell me what do you play games for? I hope its to have some good old fun and enjoyment. Oh and one last thing, the Jaguar only died because I got the short end of a 1v1 with an Impoc in the Curse Region. And it lived a while before it went pop too. So yeah AF's definately have a role, you just need to use your brains a little and not follow like a lemming.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 06:51:00 - [44] I play the game because I enjoy a challenge in PvP. I highly value efficiency in pvp, and not the "check out my new cool useless ship" attitude. Also, no one still has properly has countered my argument about a t1 cruiser being more effective, besides anecdotic evidence. N.F.F. Recruitment
MotoTsume Gallente Clan Black Scorpion	Posted - 2007.04.09 07:03:00 - [45] Edited by: MotoTsume on 09/04/2007 07:02:57 Originally by: eXtas af's are totaly pointless unless u are npc'ing This person has no clue it seems - there is a video somewhere form a member of VETO that shows him and his ishkur doing some serious pvp ganking lol - is totally awesome, and i find my Ishkur totally rocks - i agree with the 2 valk II's and 3 warrior II's but i also at times do 3 Valk II's and 2 hammerhead II's. will try to find the video and link in this thread here it is: My Veto by MellaRinn file is called My Veto It's just a game........Or is it?????
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.09 08:40:00 - [46] Edited by: Ryysa on 09/04/2007 08:39:24 You should really consider what you are saying before you say that eXtas has no clue. But anyhow, videos of how x ship ganks x ship with npc fitting in belt is hardly interesting. Take any pvp t1 cruiser and pit it against that ishkur, and the ishkur dies horribly. Nevermind against battlecruisers and battleships. You see - ganking hunter in belt doesn't take much skill, even with a smaller ship. Cruiser can also gank hunter in belt, and it can do it: 1) Faster 2) Cheaper Just compare ishkur to vexor for example. It's about bang for the buck. Unfortunately at their current state the AF's have less of the bang and more of the buck. Sure, if you are an AF fanboi, I won't be able to convince you differently - however, from an efficiency standpoint, pvping in an AF is one of the most inefficient ways to do pvp. N.F.F. Recruitment
Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2007.04.09 10:50:00 - [47] Edited by: Tassill on 09/04/2007 10:48:04 Intys tackle better than af's, do similar dps to af's are much much much better to use with assigned fighters than af's and are much much harder to kill than af's. If you want a reason to fly af the only one I can come up with is pve or because it looks cool. Edit: To the op, If you are planing on playing the game longterm than I would say than in 1 years time you would not even consider flying an af but intys are ships you can keep going back to even if u have 70 mil sp's
Talen Kross T Miners	Posted - 2007.04.09 11:07:00 - [48] I have to agree with that. I do fly AF's, and they are fun. but I fully realise that the average T1 cruiser will kill the average Af in a 1v1. The actual costs that CCP wanted AFs to be was 3mill, however, AFs are fun and people are willing to pay 15mill for one which is why they are so expensive.
Siklone The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2007.04.09 22:54:00 - [49] There are always going to be better ships... I PvP for fun, and no frigate is more fun than my blaster Harpy... doing 170 DPS just outside web range is very good. Very cheap ship and mods for T2, resistances and a small tank help you stay alive... It's just a different feel vs. a speedtanked Crow. Yes the Crow tackles better, and sure it goes fast, but no inty can do 170 DPS. Most cruisers don't do that unless they're using T2. And the gate camp scenario... people who fly AF usually don't solo. We accept that it's not an Inty. But we've got a much higher chance of getting out than a cruiser. The exceptions being Thorax and Stabber. They are fast... but they are a small piece of the available cruisers... I've made it out of non-bubble camps in my Harpy many times. Saying AF's suck because they're caught in a bubble isn't accurate. Everything but inties and a lucky speed cruiser/phoon are going to get caught. On the same note...why fly a cruiser when you can fly a BC? Bit of a circular argument here...
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.04.09 23:38:00 - [50] Personally I feel afs are great, you can get in, do the damage, and get out. Sure, blaster taranis does a lot of damage, but it will get pwned by and ship with nos. YOu can say that about any frigat. Harpy is pretty sweet. mwd, tank, and 125mm IIs. Hits antimatter to 18km, 25 with falloff. If you need itt oo also hits 60km (max targeting range). It can easily stay out of nos range of larger ships, and if it cant due to its small sig radius it just warps out. Also, these "fast moving gangs" your a part of ryssa, I see all the time. I also see assault frigats in them all the time. Assault frigates offer just as much bang for the buck as an interceptor, They may not be the fastest, but they are certaintly viable. Fast warp, fast ship, decent damage, and small sig radius.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.04.10 01:06:00 - [51] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 10/04/2007 01:07:47 Originally by: Ryysa The day a harpy kills my inty from 95km will never come, because when i notice it trying to do that i will re-warp after which i will swiftly go straight to that harpy and pwn it in the face. To do that, you must stop scrambling the primary target. I am sure the enemy primary appreciates your zeal for pwning the AF in the face. If I were fleet commander, you would no longer be welcome in my fleet, on account of willful disregard for following orders and allowing the primary to warp away. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.10 02:27:00 - [52] Edited by: Maeltstome on 10/04/2007 02:24:54 Originally by: Ryysa Also, no one still has properly has countered my argument about a t1 cruiser being more effective, besides anecdotic evidence. actually several people have - but you wont listen. And oh yea about my wolf post, you quite clearly have never fought against a competant wolf pilot, nor do you understand how falloff works. Carcal 3 volleying a wolf with 2100 HP.... hmmm... no. And as a final note, yes, sick resistances - 2x Energized plates will take your res's to around 95/50/55/75 quite easily. For only using 2 slots thats pretty sick imo. But hey, i don't know why im posting - because every other reply you've made in this topic has been a slate at the person posting, with little more than "Anecdotal" evidence yourself. EDIT* With no mention of context, describing this post, or anything else - i ask my Die-Hard caldari corp mate simply "Caracal Versus Wolf, who wins?" - 3 seconds later "Wolf". And he's a good caracal pilot.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.10 02:38:00 - [53] Edited by: Ryysa on 10/04/2007 02:35:09 Originally by: Maeltstome And oh yea about my wolf post, you quite clearly have never fought against a competant wolf pilot Flown those things 1.5 year ago, gave up flying them very fast. Quote: nor do you understand how falloff works. I do, perfectly, it's you who needs to refer to the turret and tracking guide and get a clue. Quote: Carcal 3 volleying a wolf with 2100 HP.... hmmm... no. With precision heavies? hmm yes. Maybe 4 volley. Quote: And as a final note, yes, sick resistances - 2x Energized plates will take your res's to around 95/50/55/75 quite easily. For only using 2 slots thats pretty sick imo. And with your DPS without dmg mods you won't even beat caracal passive shield recharge. Quote: But hey, i don't know why im posting - because every other reply you've made in this topic has been a slate at the person posting, with little more than "Anecdotal" evidence yourself. Hardly. Quote: With no mention of context, describing this post, or anything else - i ask my Die-Hard caldari corp mate simply "Caracal Versus Wolf, who wins?" - 3 seconds later "Wolf". Way to go. I fly both. 1v1, my caracal vs your wolf, you name the place. Quote: And he's a good caracal pilot. No, he is an idiot. Originally by: Guillame Herschel To do that, you must stop scrambling the primary target. I am sure the enemy primary appreciates your zeal for pwning the AF in the face. If I were fleet commander, you would no longer be welcome in my fleet, on account of willful disregard for following orders and allowing the primary to warp away. You have two choices. Go for the harpy or die. Either way you stop scrambling the primary. That's why you are a bad fleet commander - because you fail to realize this. N.F.F. Recruitment
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.10 04:58:00 - [54] I spent 20 minutes disecting that post, but instead im just going to say... sure. Lets rock'n'roll - i can link people to this thread on the killboards.
0m3g4 w34p0n Caldari Caldari Navy Raiders DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.04.10 05:53:00 - [55] Edited by: 0m3g4 w34p0n on 10/04/2007 05:53:01 Edited by: 0m3g4 w34p0n on 10/04/2007 05:52:14 Quote: But hey, i don't know why im posting - because every other reply you've made in this topic has been a slate at the person posting, with little more than "Anecdotal" evidence yourself. Quote: Hardly. Quote: And he's a good caracal pilot. Quote: No, he is an idiot. Anyone else think he just proved his point
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.10 07:30:00 - [56] Edited by: Ryysa on 10/04/2007 07:30:41 Originally by: Maeltstome I spent 20 minutes disecting that post, but instead im just going to say... sure. Lets rock'n'roll - i can link people to this thread on the killboards. I'll try to contact you ingame when I get home tonight :) Although we do need to set some sort of rules, otherwise I can just use ECM :P And honestly said, I can't see what a wolf will do to a passively shieldtanked caracal with assault launchers. N.F.F. Recruitment
Scots Crusader Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.10 12:13:00 - [57] You can discuss this till the cows come home. Technically a Cruser is a superior ship in every way. I know, I fly both AF's and crusers and an AF will loose almost everytime to a cruiser. But the whole point is the ship you enjoy flying. I love flying my Ruppie, but equally love jumping into my pure gank Wolf and watching Inty's dissappear in a hail of artillery fire. To the OP, I say, train them, try them and make your own mind up. One man's diamond is another mans cheap rip-off. ----------------------------------------------- O wad some power, the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us!
Hotshothotshot1	Posted - 2007.04.10 13:03:00 - [58] i fly inty's as well as AF. I Like flying a inty better coz its a lot faster. but the damage i do on it is no way near the damage i can do on my harpy. Maybe its becoz im caldari. But AF can be really tough. Nice damage, Nice resists, doing 1200ms orbiting around the enemy. And shoot over 60km with 125mm railguns if needed. Yeah they are slower then intys, they also dont have the hp cruisers have. but come on you can not compare those ships, they do have different roles. and to those who are talking about it dying in a camp. Almost every ship who lands into a gang( with AF,BC,BS etc) will die if it gets called primairy even inty's. Its fun to fly AF. stop taking it so serieously. its all about fun
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.10 14:51:00 - [59] AF are hella fun to fly, but it is easy to get over confident in them. They usually are not very practical. Kinda like a little sports car you can jump into when you are tired of driving a big boring SUV. Its a rush taking a 30 mil frig (Ishkur) into battle, but it is kinda foolish from an isk/dps standpoint. Might as well spend a few more mill and get a Myr. I fly a starship across the Universe divide And when I reach the other side I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can Perhaps I may become a highwayman again - Willie Nelson
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.10 14:54:00 - [60] Originally by: MrTripps AF are hella fun to fly, but it is easy to get over confident in them. They usually are not very practical. Kinda like a little sports car you can jump into when you are tired of driving a big boring SUV. Its a rush taking a 30 mil frig (Ishkur) into battle, but it is kinda foolish from an isk/dps standpoint. Might as well spend a few more mill and get a Myr. 100% agree with this :) N.F.F. Recruitment
Qall Rungbar Minmatar Skunk Works Corp. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.10 15:23:00 - [61] Aww.. dagnammit... you've all just put me off spunking loads of ISK on a Wolf... Actually, no - I still want one, just for the fact you can fit so much gunnery to it. It might suck, but could be fun for a while, and that's what this is all about, apparently..
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:40:00 - [62] Ryssa is 100% right about the Caracal, a Caracal with precison heavies[or a drake, which will do 40% more per volley, for both volleys will be coming every 7 seconds or so] will be running about 950-1200 damage per volley with those heavies and they will have an exposion radius of about 60, and you will need to be moving >2000 m/s in order to slow the damage from them a lick[about 5km/s to outrun] Caldari are exceptionaly good at killing ships smaller than they are. Cruisers with frigate guns will do about the same DPS for the most part. For instance a Maller has 5 guns to the Retributions 4, and has tons more fitting space. Giving it the same damage as the Retribution[much less range though, but slots to make up for it] against frigates with a better tank[for the most part] But id still rather fly a Retribution. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:51:00 - [63] "How good are Assault Ships?" They arent. The realy reason you would train Assault ships is a stepping stone for HAC's. Also Assault Frigs have a bonus that doesnt really count as a bonus, thus they are officially getting back their 4th bonus. (Apparently CCP thought pre-applied resistance bonuses werent enough.) ----------- 24.01.06 Small patch that addresses some minor balancing issues 1) All minmatar pilots have been deleted
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.10 17:53:00 - [64] Originally by: korrey "How good are Assault Ships?" They arent. The realy reason you would train Assault ships is a stepping stone for HAC's. Also Assault Frigs have a bonus that doesnt really count as a bonus, thus they are officially getting back their 4th bonus. (Apparently CCP thought pre-applied resistance bonuses werent enough.) This is coming from the guy who think a special ability to warp even whiel scrammed is a solid idea.
Isean Raddick Explorations NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.04.10 18:26:00 - [65] Most people train Assualt ships to get HACs and eventually Command ships. I am too, but I actually find myself very fond of my Ishkur. Decent PvE and Great for small gang PVP or raoming solo work. Ive also heard good things about sniper harpys, enyos, and the wolf. Again, I got it so I could get HACs, but I actually enjoy the little buggers.
Harlequinn Caldari Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.04.10 18:36:00 - [66] Originally by: Tunajuice Hawk is crappy, I would advise not to. For PVP harpy is fun.. spike lets you do 90-100 dps at 75-100km with nice tracking. I'd say that a Hawk fills the role of anti-frig support better than a Harpy at ranges 50km and under with bloodclaw precision light missiles and tanks a lot harder. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.10 18:44:00 - [67] Cruiser > AF Cheaper too. My ishkur was great for lvl3s, and for baiting miners into shooting me when I stole from them. Other than that if you want an anti-frig ship, you're better off using a destroyer or drone cruiser.
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.10 19:34:00 - [68] Yes cruisers are cheaper - bu has anyone noticed teh massive price inflation of T2 gear for cruisers? This is what makes thems o expensive, even the simplest t2 module of ac ruiser size costs millions.
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2007.04.10 20:04:00 - [69] Edited by: korrey on 10/04/2007 20:01:09 Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: korrey "How good are Assault Ships?" They arent. The realy reason you would train Assault ships is a stepping stone for HAC's. Also Assault Frigs have a bonus that doesnt really count as a bonus, thus they are officially getting back their 4th bonus. (Apparently CCP thought pre-applied resistance bonuses werent enough.) This is coming from the guy who think a special ability to warp even whiel scrammed is a solid idea. My how constructive you are when posting..., almost as good as the "Worst. Idea. Ever" one. Flaming for no reason on the internet is like the special olympics. Even if you win, your still retarded. ----------- 24.01.06 Small patch that addresses some minor balancing issues 1) All minmatar pilots have been deleted
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia	Posted - 2007.04.11 05:00:00 - [70] I find it oddly humorous that Ryysa compares a T1 cruiser with T2 guns vs. an AF. While a cruiser costs less than the AF, the AF setup is still cheaper than a t2 fitted cruiser by far. AF are too often underestimated. They serve VERY well as inty killers, dps platforms, and pull double duty as tanked tacklers. The time it takes to learn AF skills including t2 small guns/missiles is less than to learn the skills needed to use medium t2 modules. AF have more survivability as they are smaller (sig radius), faster, and more manueverable than a standard cruiser. Unfortunately you need to actually learn to pilot one to be effective instead of closing on target and F1,F2,F3 like larger ships. With great power comes great responsibility...and hawt cyborz!
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.11 09:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Keorythe I find it oddly humorous that Ryysa compares a T1 cruiser with T2 guns vs. an AF. While a cruiser costs less than the AF, the AF setup is still cheaper than a t2 fitted cruiser by far. Actually, cruiser will do more damage before dying even with stock t1 setup than an AF. And last i checked t2 assault launchers cost next to nothing and t2 dual 180mm ac's cost about 2m/piece. Quote: AF are too often underestimated. They serve VERY well as inty killers, dps platforms, and pull double duty as tanked tacklers. The time it takes to learn AF skills including t2 small guns/missiles is less than to learn the skills needed to use medium t2 modules. They suck at killing inties, because no good inty will ever let you catch him, since he moves faster. Inties can do just as much dps as af's can. Quote: AF have more survivability as they are smaller (sig radius), faster, and more manueverable than a standard cruiser. Hardly, frigate sized hitpoints with frigate sized repping ability and frigate sized cap while having about the same agility as a cruiser do not translate into higher survivability. Quote: Unfortunately you need to actually learn to pilot one to be effective instead of closing on target and F1,F2,F3 like larger ships. Funny, how much piloting can you do when you are webbed? Because very few af's can deal decent damage from outside webrange, small arties/rails/lasers do tiny dps. Oh and... proof or stfu. Stabber with t2 guns which is STILL cheaper than the af's is much better already. Only ones that can compete are ishkur with rails because of drones and retribution with a dmg mod, but retribution has 1 midslot... Stabber 3... Now these are all setups which work out of webrange, if you like I can post setups which work from inside webrange, however af which goes in webrange of anything significant either gets nosed and droned or just ripped apart if it's cruiser sized guns. N.F.F. Recruitment
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 12:08:00 - [72] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 11/04/2007 12:09:00 Strangely enough using my current skills i can out damage a T2 fitted Stabber easily using my T2 fitted wolf. Not only that but using MWD and the same implants the speeds are much closer than you would think. Even with Hail and 2x projectile rigs im still only just getting in the same range of DPS. The only argument you really win as far as i can tell is the size of tank. The stabber with a large extender gets about 5k vs the 900HP of the wolf. So far as a AF pilot i have only lost two, one was to a well fitted Brutix, the other vs a pilgrim, maller, and geddon. I have also soloed a few BC's in my wolf as well as lots and lots of cruisers. I have even attempted to take on BS's only to end in a stalemate. Look over your numbers i think your overestimating the DPS output of the stabber. //edit Switching over to an armor tank and i get similar resists using an EAN2, but i have to drop a missile launcher to fit a medium T2 repper on. I do have 1500HP vs 900HP of the wolf but the DPS output of the stabber is down right shameful. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
Jayne Tamm	Posted - 2007.04.11 12:22:00 - [73] thats quite impressive ryas. i hear the wolf is a pretty good ship.....but wot about the other af's? why is the hawk so crap? i really want to like them...coz they are by far the coolest lookin af's in the game!!
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 12:26:00 - [74] Caldari ships are slow, thats the biggest weakness in them. They make for good ranged platforms but why fit blasters when the enyo does so much more damage with them. Also i find that close combat in a frigate is about as much fun as you can have, interceptors or AF's both are a blast to fly. I personally prefer AF's because i like doing huge damage in a small fast package. Most people are not ready for a frig to start dishing out 200+ dps. They think... hey its a frig what can it do... next thing they know they are into structure and trying like mad to out run me. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
Jayne Tamm	Posted - 2007.04.11 12:43:00 - [75] ok...so assumin that id be running in a gang..with someone else probably tackling...would the slow speed of say ahawk really come into play much? also...how good is the hawks dps compared to other af's out there? i just like the idea of gettin in close on the nemy and letting loose with barrage after barrage of assault missiles.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 12:47:00 - [76] honestly cant say for sure since i dont fly caldari at all... what i can tell you is that the people that have flown them in our AF gangs they tend to be very low on cap, cant warp as far as other AF's and the speed really did impact the movement of the gang. Granted this was all pre WTZ so it might not be as bad now. If you want to really dish out the damage Galente AF's and Minmatar AF's are the way to go. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.04.11 13:16:00 - [77] I like my sniper harpy. I play the game for fun. Cool looking toys are fun. The eagle or moa can do better, but are just butt ugly. Pew Pew!
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.11 14:56:00 - [78] The problem: There are tons of frigates, but Ceptors do everything. Solution: tweak frigs to make them all have a niche. Remember the CCP defined roles of ships: Interceptors = Skirmish Raiders Assault Frigates = Escort Ships Destroyers = Anti-Skirmish Raiders Changes to fix frigate balance Listen to Wierda - GIVE AF's A FOURTH BONUS Make base AF speed faster, but leave mass/agility the same Increase Scan Resolution on AFs to 975 or 1000m. AFs are meant to TACKLE Decrease all Ceptor targeting range to that of the Claw - 18 or 20km MAX. Decrease Ceptor Scan Resolution to 500mm Decrease sig rad of Destroyers. Yes they are bigger than other Frigs, but still too easy to kill. Increase tracking bonus on destroyers. Dessies should be able to hit ships even orbiting very fast easily. It's thier defined role. Make all dessies as easy to fit as a Thrasher There you go. Ceptors tweaked to be skirmish raiders, AF's now live longer, have another bonus, and TACKLE better than anything. Dessies have a bit more survivability and can actually hit that orbiting ceptor. The issue now is that Ceptors outperform all other frigates in all ways. With all those frigates out there, it would be nice to have them all be useful. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.04.11 15:00:00 - [79] Right, 3 words: Insta popped a thorax. In my jaguar. :P ----------------------
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.04.11 15:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Nyxus The problem: There are tons of frigates, but Ceptors do everything. Solution: tweak frigs to make them all have a niche. Remember the CCP defined roles of ships: Interceptors = Skirmish Raiders Assault Frigates = Escort Ships Destroyers = Anti-Skirmish Raiders Can you link to a place where CCP said this? Because I disagree. The way I always thought their roles were intended to play out was: Interceptors - tacklers AF's - skirmish raiders Dessies - anit-frig escort/support
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.11 15:42:00 - [81] Originally by: "TomB" Reason why Interceptors are as combat based as they are today and not more "support" based with scrambling/webby bonuses has these reasons: They were build for pvping, we wanted players to be able fly in frigates solo or in groups and not need to relay on having bigger ships to deal the damage needed to take down enemies/victems. The vision we had for these ships when we released them was to give the players skirmish ships that could travel fast to locationX and strike an assault on their own; deal damage and be a pain to fight/catch up with, I believe we managed to do exactly what we planned to do with them. Normal T1 frigates are not capable of doing that as good and with style as the Interceptors can, and we did not want to give T1 ships more defined role to be able to make the T2 ships more special. Imo Interceptors are not overpowered in what they do, even tho' I have witnessed inties such as the Tarzan taking out a player battleship on his own, they are still killable by any bigger bigger ship in the game. If we like names to define exactly what the ships are supposed to do, Interceptors should be called Assault/Skirmish Ships and the current holder of the name "Assault Ships" should be called Escort Ships (which they were originally called) but we didn't want to make them pure escorty so that name was picked for them. Dug up on eve-search here: http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=348015#4989160 Honestly several of us fought with Maya and a few others across several threads until TomB stepped in and pwned us. Maya was right. Interceptors are not tacklers, they are skirmish ships. And this concept is not to "nerf tacklers". It's to make some frigates BETTER tacklers (make them more useful) and encourage them to be used, encourage more specialization in frigate fitting (not just web, mwd, scram, speed, weaps). Right now Ceptors just do EVERYTHING better, damage, tackling, damage mitigation. This provides incentive to specialize and diversify you frigate fleets. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Maeltstome Minmatar Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.04.11 15:42:00 - [82] Originally by: Nyxus Decrease Ceptor Scan Resolution to 500mm Thats a terrible idea - it would ruin the role of interceptors. EG. lock down target til the big guns arrive.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.11 15:49:00 - [83] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: Nyxus Decrease Ceptor Scan Resolution to 500mm Thats a terrible idea - it would ruin the role of interceptors. EG. lock down target til the big guns arrive. Ceptors ARE NOT intended to be tacklers. They just happen to tackle better than the Escort Ships. This puts them firmly back in the Skirmish raider catagory, while boosting AFs into their intended role - escort shpis that tackle for the larger ships. Ceptors should all have lock ranges the same as the Claw as well from a balance perspective. The CCP naming convention is just EXTREMELY counter-intuitive. Just read TomB's explanation. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.11 16:10:00 - [84] Edited by: Ryysa on 11/04/2007 16:08:57 Interesting wall of text and how you claim that your wolf does the same damage as stabber ... While it actually does what... 2x less? Or didn't you look here? Wow... Since when is 200 dps a huge damage? Stabber can do that from out of webrange. Besides, shall I make another graph comparing thorax to your blaster enyo? lawl... And yeah, it seems all the people who accept "challenges" here never play. Mr. Maeltstome besides being less than 1 year old in game, is seemingly /never/ online. Don't know about the other guy. Do me a favor and contact me when you are on. Kinda tired of people preaching complete bull**** when numbers, damage calculations, and player experience say the complete opposite N.F.F. Recruitment
MotoTsume Gallente Clan Black Scorpion	Posted - 2007.04.11 16:31:00 - [85] Edited by: MotoTsume on 11/04/2007 16:28:47 Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 11/04/2007 16:08:57 Interesting wall of text and how you claim that your wolf does the same damage as stabber ... While it actually does what... 2x less? Or didn't you look here? Wow... Since when is 200 dps a huge damage? Stabber can do that from out of webrange. Besides, shall I make another graph comparing thorax to your blaster enyo? lawl... And yeah, it seems all the people who accept "challenges" here never play. Mr. Maeltstome besides being less than 1 year old in game, is seemingly /never/ online. Don't know about the other guy. Do me a favor and contact me when you are on. Kinda tired of people preaching complete bull**** when numbers, damage calculations, and player experience say the complete opposite I see that that chart for the ishkur actually show guns and only hobgoblin II's Most ishkur pilots dont use guns nor hobgoblin II's at all but probably a NOS and hammerhead II's with Acolyte II's or Warrior II's, but with rails and a better drone mix using meds the dps would go up quite a bit edit:spelling It's just a game........Or is it?????
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.11 16:42:00 - [86] Edited by: Ryysa on 11/04/2007 16:39:42 Not nearly as much as you think, it's fairly irrelevant. with lvl4 assault frig, you can have 2 hammerheads, 3 hobgoblins... and nos would pull damage down. Check what it costs to fit ishkur fully t2 and stabber with t2 guns though (counting insurance). Stabber would be about 2-3 times cheaper. N.F.F. Recruitment
MotoTsume Gallente Clan Black Scorpion	Posted - 2007.04.11 16:50:00 - [87] Edited by: MotoTsume on 11/04/2007 16:47:21 Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 11/04/2007 16:39:42 Not nearly as much as you think, it's fairly irrelevant. with lvl4 assault frig, you can have 2 hammerheads, 3 hobgoblins... and nos would pull damage down. Check what it costs to fit ishkur fully t2 and stabber with t2 guns though (counting insurance). Stabber would be about 2-3 times cheaper. you could leave the guns and include the hammerheads ignore the hobs - warrior II's are better to use with the hammerheads can even do warrior II's with Valkyrie II's for explosive damage stabber is probably cheaper but the ishkur is just Sex - edit:spelling It's just a game........Or is it?????
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.04.11 17:17:00 - [88] Originally by: Nyxus Ceptors ARE NOT intended to be tacklers. Funny, I though that they were named "interceptors" because they were intended to "intercept." What is "intercepting" if not "tackling?"
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.11 17:28:00 - [89] Well, If I would only fly ships for their looks, I sure as hell wouldn't be a minmatar pilot I agree though... stabber looks like a big turd compared to an ishkur :P I still like my vagabond though. N.F.F. Recruitment
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:04:00 - [90] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 11/04/2007 16:08:57 Interesting wall of text and how you claim that your wolf does the same damage as stabber ... While it actually does what... 2x less? Or didn't you look here? Wow... Since when is 200 dps a huge damage? Stabber can do that from out of webrange. Besides, shall I make another graph comparing thorax to your blaster enyo? lawl... And yeah, it seems all the people who accept "challenges" here never play. Mr. Maeltstome besides being less than 1 year old in game, is seemingly /never/ online. Don't know about the other guy. Do me a favor and contact me when you are on. Kinda tired of people preaching complete bull**** when numbers, damage calculations, and player experience say the complete opposite He is setting up his wolf with falloff rigs and multipule damage rigs. For instance you have the Wolf and the Retribution with 1 and 0 dmg mods. The Wolf ought to do more DPS than the retribution with 1 dmg mod[4 guns on both, med pulse = 1.11 200mm AC's and the Wolf has a second 25% damage bonus]. And really, the retribution should be flying with 3 damage mods and its DPS should be 205 from 0 to 16.5km[or up to 22km in propulsionless setups] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:29:00 - [91] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Nyxus Ceptors ARE NOT intended to be tacklers. Funny, I though that they were named "interceptors" because they were intended to "intercept." What is "intercepting" if not "tackling?" Well, the Lead Designer for Eve says they are not. In fact, he even explicitly states that thier given names DO NOT coincide with thier actual in game roles. Let me clip the relevant part. Originally by: TomB If we like names to define exactly what the ships are supposed to do, Interceptors should be called Assault/Skirmish Ships and the current holder of the name "Assault Ships" should be called Escort Ships (which they were originally called) Escort ships (assault frigates) were meant to tackle ships for thier larger bretheren. Skirmish/Assault ships (interceptors) were meant for behind enemy lines raiding. Because Inties were the first T2 ships introduced CCP made them a bit too good at everything. Swapping the Scan Resolution on Escort Ships (AFs) and Skirmish Raiders (inties) let's each fufill it's intended function as stated explicitly by CCP. AF's are actually defense/tackling frigs, Inties are Raiding/Assault ships. No, it doesn't make a lot of sense with thier names. But those are the facts. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:34:00 - [92] Originally by: Ryysa Besides, shall I make another graph comparing thorax to your blaster enyo? lawl... Is that a T2 or Faction Graph? WTB Core Type-X Damage Graph. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:37:00 - [93] T2 220s + 2x T2 gyro's and 2x ROF rigs gave me around 260 DPS with Hail 210 with barrage. T2 200s + 2x T2 gyros and 2x ROF rigs gave me 220DPS with hail, and 175 DPS with barrage. at 5m per 220 your looking at around 30m for a stabber with out the rigs and 22m for the wolf with T2 fit. This is with AF's 4, cruiser 5, small and med AC spec 4. Now lets talk speed, Stabber wins this at 2600m/s next to the wolf at 2000m/s. How about tank? Wolf wins with 900 resisted armor, vs 3000 unresisted passive shields. Its a very even fight and my preference turns to the wolf. Some other things to keep in mind the wolf has a scan res of 875 vs 330 on the stabber it takes the wolf 2 second to lock and engage where as the stabber unassisted require as much as 7 seconds to target back. 7 seconds with these kinds of DPS is a life time and is the difference between dead and alive. Wolf vs Stabber the wolf gets to deal 1150dps before the stabber even gets to lock. When it comes to cost, DPS, maneuverability, and speed, IMO the wolf is the better choice. The stabber is a very very close second but the rigs and dual gyro required to match the DPS of the wolf make it a far less attractive option to me. I like T2 resists as little as they are, i like armor tanking, and i like locking my target first because i can quickly deal damage and still chose to warp out before the lock is returnd if need be. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
VanNostrum	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:38:00 - [94] 1 ROF + 1 dmg rig give better results
Still Hart Aurora Medical Systems	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:49:00 - [95] Originally by: korrey Flaming for no reason on the internet is like the special olympics. Even if you win, your still retarded. Actually, the quote is "ARGUING on the internet..." But the way you mis-phrased certainly makes you look better. :P To the OP, here's my take on the AF's. They're really not as useful as they look. However, they're basically free to get since you need all the skill prereqs to be a good PvP pilot anyhow! Why not get an AF and fly it for two weeks while you train an interceptor? You'll probably know once you get in that inty whether or not you'll ever want to fly an AF again. I was super excited to get into my first wolf and I was pretty disappointed with it within a week. The claw is one of my favorite ships to fly though. And it does a LOT of damage, no matter what some people in this thread think. That 50% damage bonus is hard to beat. If you wanted to sum up my opinion of AFs it's that there's many other ships that do what they do better...I'd fly a thrasher over a wolf and a Claw or Stiletto over a jag...so the only reason to fly on is if you don't care about "best" but "most fun" and you like flying em! SH
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 18:52:00 - [96] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 11/04/2007 18:48:10 you sir are right... must have changed because i could swear when i tested the first time around with rigs 2x ROF rigs gave more damage, but it seems since the stacking nerf ( a good on IMO) ROF+DMG is the better way to go. The difference though is very very small. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
Sheriff Jones	Posted - 2007.04.11 19:00:00 - [97] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 11/04/2007 18:57:09 Well, i purchased a vengeance of all ship a while back. NOW, sure it's not the best out there. SURE, it may not be the cream of the crop. But, it looks better then any other ship out there, with it's neon blue lights and black'nes It's a decent fighter, with 3 turrets and a missile launcher. Can pve, can pve some too, is good at tackling and can be made into a nasty scout as well. Not to mention the resists, that are somewhat ridicilous at times It's a versitile ship, that can be fitted to do a job, maybe not as good as the "top pro players", but enough to have fun. Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. I am not singing Ducktales.
Ryysa North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.11 19:54:00 - [98] Originally by: Ryas Nia T2 220s + 2x T2 gyro's and 2x ROF rigs gave me around 260 DPS with Hail 210 with barrage. T2 200s + 2x T2 gyros and 2x ROF rigs gave me 220DPS with hail, and 175 DPS with barrage. Please do your calculations right, and do point out ALL the formulas here, without naming wild numbers. Also DPS comparisons are done with max skills usually. In my graph you have stabber with dual 180mm t2's which cost 2 mil/gun and wolf with 200 II's. You are doing some pretty bad mistakes calculating stabber dps with 220 II's and rof rigs etc. Besides, no sane person fits rigs on af's and t1 cruisers. I'd rather get a hurricane for the money it will take you to outfit your rigged af. Again, I don't care about your inflated DPS figures. Either use naughty boy's spreadsheet (which has proven to be very accurate most of the time) or please show the math yourself. QuickFit is notoriously inaccurate on different DPS numbers. Also, if you can compare without rigs, why add two of the SAME rig to both setups?. Why add something that boosts the same stat? How does it matter in comparison? But yeah, I guess mr. af fanboy, that you get your values from quickfit which you believe to be the absolute truth. It's also fun how you forget just HOW vulnerable af's are to nos. When people start taking their uber dps from thin air (aka quickfit) and disregard evidence presented using proper sources they have "fanboi" written all over their face. PvP in your crappy ship, just don't say it is good in pvp, because it's not. You might like the ship, you might like to fly gimped things in pvp, I will enjoy popping your af's with my vagabond/huginn over and over again :) N.F.F. Recruitment
VanNostrum	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:07:00 - [99] chill dude, they don't give u a medal for being right
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:19:00 - [100] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Ryas Nia T2 220s + 2x T2 gyro's and 2x ROF rigs gave me around 260 DPS with Hail 210 with barrage. T2 200s + 2x T2 gyros and 2x ROF rigs gave me 220DPS with hail, and 175 DPS with barrage. Please do your calculations right, and do point out ALL the formulas here, without naming wild numbers. Also DPS comparisons are done with max skills usually. In my graph you have stabber with dual 180mm t2's which cost 2 mil/gun and wolf with 200 II's. You are doing some pretty bad mistakes calculating stabber dps with 220 II's and rof rigs etc. Besides, no sane person fits rigs on af's and t1 cruisers. I'd rather get a hurricane for the money it will take you to outfit your rigged af. Again, I don't care about your inflated DPS figures. Either use naughty boy's spreadsheet (which has proven to be very accurate most of the time) or please show the math yourself. QuickFit is notoriously inaccurate on different DPS numbers. Also, if you can compare without rigs, why add two of the SAME rig to both setups?. Why add something that boosts the same stat? How does it matter in comparison? But yeah, I guess mr. af fanboy, that you get your values from quickfit which you believe to be the absolute truth. It's also fun how you forget just HOW vulnerable af's are to nos. When people start taking their uber dps from thin air (aka quickfit) and disregard evidence presented using proper sources they have "fanboi" written all over their face. PvP in your crappy ship, just don't say it is good in pvp, because it's not. You might like the ship, you might like to fly gimped things in pvp, I will enjoy popping your af's with my vagabond/huginn over and over again :) Well i was trying to give an honest and level headed debate, but you seem intent on attacking me rather than arguing the points i make. Your right i do use Quickfit and it may in fact be wrong. I will do the calculations manually to confirm my data. your also right no sane person fits rigs on an AF, but then im not sane, never have been. Im also sure im not the only one :P. I fit two of the same because when i first did the math the dual ROF rig gave me higher DPS than ROF+DMG, CCP changed things and thats no longer a good setup. Im a AF fanboi to the extent that i think AF's are highly under rated but i do know their limitations. I would not attack most BC's in an AF, or a BS unless that character is a total nub. Wolf vs Vaga is an easy choice and easy to see who wins, same with the huginn. But were not hear to argue if a T2 frigate can kill a T2 Cruiser because it cant, The argument im trying to make is that AF's dont suck as much as you think, i dont think they are Uber, i dont think they are the best ships ever, i simply think that most of the arguments you have made are overblown. AF's simply are better than you think, still not "the best" but they are for sure better than you think. The OP wanted to know if AF's were decent ships and if they were any fun to fly, my response is yes, and i felt a need to calmly counter your points because i find them to be inaccurate. I dont have anything to lose if im wrong, you clearly do. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:22:00 - [101] Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 11/04/2007 20:19:02 Before the time of interdictors most of the assault ships had a good role in keeping tackling frigs off of fleet battleships. Now that a single well piloted interdictor can do the same job as 20+ tacklers that role isn't as imporant. Nice for shooting up NPCs still at least.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:52:00 - [102] Right i used Naughty Boy's spreadsheet and confirmed that my numbers were infact right. Linkage Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
Sheriff Jones	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:03:00 - [103] Originally by: Ryysa PvP in your crappy ship, just don't say it is good in pvp, because it's not. You might like the ship, you might like to fly gimped things in pvp, I will enjoy popping your af's with my vagabond/huginn over and over again :) Isn't that like saying "I'll enjoy popping your frigates with my cruiser" ? Or like saying "Well, sure those battlecruisers can be fun but i pwn them bigtime in my battleship everytime"? Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. I am not singing Ducktales.
Shina Windol Caldari Raging Phoenix Incorporated North Star Confederation	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:57:00 - [104] well, to answer the OP questions on AF's, particularly those of the Caldari, they can be quite fun to fly. I personally am a Hawk pilot and my corporation sees a number of Harpy equiped capsulers as well. Frankly, the Caldari AF's are fun and effective, but if you are looking for the most lethal, I'd definately recommend the Ishkur. A Hawk, despite its lack of high DPS, is still very effective against most things cruiser sized or smaller, and its lack of capacitor draining weapons and mods allows the pilot to effectively passively tank while throwing the vast majority of the power to jamming a target for pwnage. A Harpy is a VERY versatile ship. While I don't know much about how to effectively use one myself, it does make for a lethal sniper, or a close in brawler that can smack down the Hawk, even, with t2 blasters and void. Clearly not the most powerful ships in the game, but still a blast to pilot and annoying as hell to whoever it is trying to catch them. I'd recommend taking the time to try'em out. ---------------------------------- Shina Windol Executor of the North Star Confederation CEO of Raging Phoenix Incorporated 1st Fleet Overseer, Iron Guard Legion NSTAR SDF
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:05:00 - [105] You know what I find kinda funny? Ryssa accuses people of pulling numbers from thin air etc etc, and then says something very very silly like this: Interceptors do the same dps as assault frigats! all i have to say is LOL try like 30-40% LESS dps!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:19:00 - [106] Originally by: VanNostrum chill dude, they don't give u a medal for being right You do, i give out awards bi-annualy. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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