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The Overview + Interface both eat !!30 FPS!!

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Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.09 19:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 09/04/2007 19:49:54 Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 09/04/2007 19:49:09 So I'm in this undisclosed system with 200+ people in local, waiting for someone near a moon for a transaction and as i pan and look around i decide to hit ctrl+tab for some screenies when the game unexpectedly starts to move crystal smooth. So i hit ctrl+tab back , turn on the fps monitor , it reads 20 ... ok fine fine I say and ctrl+tab back , and the game starts moving crystal smooth again! Ctrl+tab back and to my amazement i see the fps-monitor's oscilloscope dropping from 50 back to it's regular reading of 20 FPS. SO here's the general question: Where the frak did the extra 30 FPS go ? snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.09 19:53:00 - [2] You think that's impressive, try testing it with the game's sound on and off. Some bits of this games code seem to seriously need refining.............. --------
Liv Traisharan Minmatar Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:10:00 - [3] UIs are resource intensive beasts. For nearly everything on the screen (text included) you have to draw two triangles slapped together then render a texture to it. If they're doing it right (which I suspect that they are - otherwise my laptop wouldn't run the game) is that they only update the portions of the screen when needed, instead of updating the entire screen everytime something happens.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:14:00 - [4] You're lucky you weren't here before Exodus. The UI was far, far worse back then... it ate 50-70% of your FPS --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio (back up, new address!)
Dal Thrax Caldari Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:29:00 - [5] Does turning off the AI make the grid load faster? Dal Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. delaying startup again. soon as i have time i will fill you in on the details
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 09/04/2007 21:45:06 Originally by: Dark Shikari You're lucky you weren't here before Exodus. The UI was far, far worse back then... it ate 50-70% of your FPS I'm playing Revelations and this 'feature' eats 60% of my fps! Not that much of an improvement from when the game came out, now is it? snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:52:00 - [7] Turning off transparency on your ui does wonders for you fps. If only we could turn off the light effects on it as well. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Dal Thrax Does turning off the AI make the grid load faster? Dal Eve rats have an AI?? I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.04.09 21:56:00 - [9] For its age and number of patches I'd say the client is holding up rather nicely.. Granted that it rolls over and dies on the really big fleet battles but as they are all formed up using out of game mechanics in numbers never imagined when it was first designed they only have themselves to blame.. For the rest of Eve it runs just fine and will keep getting steadily better.. Now hopefully when the new client comes out then CCP will have caught back up with all those uber organized megacorps/alliances ability to field literally a thousand ships for a fight.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.10 07:45:00 - [10] There's a bunch of text, that eats more then 50% of my fps output! For fraks sake! It's a 3d space like mmorpg and more then half of the resources go into some interface text!? This is a big frakin serious issue! Fore the love of baby Jesus, CCP, please consider this a priority in sorting out! snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!

MrLobster Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.04.10 09:34:00 - [11] I once played eve with sound. Then I joined a 0.0 alliance. Then started using TeamSpeak... found warping my ship seemed to interfere with peoples voices. Then noticed running 2 accounts with sound effects really sucked Found running sound on 1 account in pvp also sucked. So switching audio back on last night brought back memories of my noob days, priceless. Promptly followed by unchecking the audio box.... __________________________ Catch the Pigeon!
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.04.10 09:36:00 - [12] Does eve support hardware accelerated sound (to ease on CPU usage)...?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.10 10:17:00 - [13] The interface uses a lot of alpha testing texturing. That uses a lot of fill rate on an inneficient way (VGA cannot optimize that much). If you are with a modern NVIDIA card, disable transparent antialiasing. That effect applies an specific AA algorithm to teh border of alpha tested textures superpositions. Since that don help much image in eve. Turn it off and relieve a lot of work of your video drivers. This diminishes the ammount of interfacing SO calls betweenapplication->driver-> VGA. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.10 10:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Commoner Does eve support hardware accelerated sound (to ease on CPU usage)...? Possibly. Either that or Windows does. Whatever - I bought a Creative labs Xi-fi recently and it significantly reduced the FPS hit from sound. Pirate Invasion mission went from 12fps at the lowest to 17fps. Without sound its lowest point is 20fps. I don't know how many sound cards actually will give such an improvement. I bought the Xi-fi specifically because reviews and product descriptions say that removing load from the CPU is a feature. There is a minor issue with sound volume but you can mostly fix that by enabling it's volume equalisation function. Bottom line:A xi-fi card will reduce the load on your CPU quite a bit. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Please don't read this signature.
monkiboi Minmatar Love and Rockets	Posted - 2007.04.10 11:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Turning off transparency on your ui does wonders for you fps. If only we could turn off the light effects on it as well. If by transparency you mean the slider in the ui colour settings then I agree with you. Making the windows transparent by pinning them to the background will actually give you a couple of fps back. Maybe more depending on your pc. I tested again before dt just to be sure nothing had changed as it's been a while since i started doing this. I have all my chat channels pinned by default. Minimizing the overview will give you an fps increase as well as minimizing chat windows until the grid has loaded. Good for jumping into those fleet situations. I also play with sound off, no AA or AF, no module effects (ctrl-shift-e) or turret effects (ctrl-shift-t) to try and keep frame rates as high as possible. Oddly enough it still looks ok although without effects you can't tell if you're being scrambled or nossed so you have to keep an eye on your speed/cap, assuming you don't sit there at the warp in point or are a blaster boat of course.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm	Posted - 2007.04.10 19:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Liv Traisharan UIs are resource intensive beasts. For nearly everything on the screen (text included) you have to draw two triangles slapped together then render a texture to it. If they're doing it right (which I suspect that they are - otherwise my laptop wouldn't run the game) is that they only update the portions of the screen when needed, instead of updating the entire screen everytime something happens. Wrong on all counts. Rendering a 2D UI consisting of some rectangles, lines, and text is FAR easier than rendering the 3D scene of space with planets, ships, debris, missiles, etc. There are no triangles involved in drawing a 2D rectangle and filling it with text. The reason it is so slow is because for each frame they call into the damned python interpreter to ask it to paint the UI again. If they did it right, then windows that don't change from frame to frame wouldn't need redrawn, but they didn't, which is why you see the massive speed up when you hide the ui.
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.10 20:06:00 - [17] Originally by: MrLobster I once played eve with sound. Then I joined a 0.0 alliance. Then started using TeamSpeak... found warping my ship seemed to interfere with peoples voices. Then noticed running 2 accounts with sound effects really sucked Found running sound on 1 account in pvp also sucked. So switching audio back on last night brought back memories of my noob days, priceless. Promptly followed by unchecking the audio box.... [off topic]Clean up your sig please its kinda messy[/off topic] Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
Masheine	Posted - 2007.04.10 20:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Gaogan Wrong on all counts. Rendering a 2D UI consisting of some rectangles, lines, and text is FAR easier than rendering the 3D scene of space with planets, ships, debris, missiles, etc. There are no triangles involved in drawing a 2D rectangle and filling it with text. Hate to tell you, man, but it's you that's way, way off on this. Everything is a triangle. Everything. Even each individual letter of text is two triangles. Games left straight up blitting and line drawing and such behind when 3D hardware became mainstream, and DirectDraw was removed from the DX apis.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.10 21:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Masheine Everything is a triangle. Everything. Even each individual letter of text is two triangles. Games left straight up blitting and line drawing and such behind when 3D hardware became mainstream, and DirectDraw was removed from the DX apis. This is completely retarded and redundant, it's just t e x t ! snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
Eralus	Posted - 2007.04.10 23:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Masheine Hate to tell you, man, but it's you that's way, way off on this. Everything is a triangle. Everything. Even each individual letter of text is two triangles. Games left straight up blitting and line drawing and such behind when 3D hardware became mainstream, and DirectDraw was removed from the DX apis. Uh, no. Texture maps are not triangles. They're rectangles. Text is most quickly drawn in 2D into a texture map and then you texture that onto a 3D object if you need to. So a whole WINDOW should be two triangles, with one 2D texture map. If you're rendering each letter as a 3D object you're an idiot. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.

Masheine	Posted - 2007.04.11 00:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina This is completely retarded and redundant, it's just t e x t ! Retarded: Um. No. It's not. Do you know how computer graphics work in modern 3D hardware? Your basic primitive is a triangle. DirectX (and 3D hardware) is built around pushing triangles (more specifically, vectors, that are then formed into primitives, like triangles, triangles strips, and triangle fans... even when quads are exposed, they're implemented in hardware as triangles...). In order to draw pretty much everything, all you need are triangles. They're the lowest common denominator, so they're what gets used. Yes, it is text. But each character in a string of text is a small box with, most likely, UV's mapped into a texture that has the complete font on it. A small box is drawn by, guess what, two triangles. No one blits anything any more. And no one uses full on true type rendering at run time. Go fire up a compiler, write some code, figure out how stuff works, and then come back and call it retarded. Redundant: How? I'm not sure you've used the right word here, because I have no idea what you mean.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.11 00:10:00 - [22] He's right you know. An entertaining bug when I was still working on the FS2 Source Code project nuked all the textures from the interface. It was neat though because it allowed you to tap out the characters and observe that in fact they really were being rendered as a pair of triangles. Now, that said though, it would be an interesting exercise to know if there was any performance to be gained from fiddling with the textures in memory and then rendering that. I would suspect not though, since it means you have to lock them each time they update (pretty frequent) which means you keep having to send them back to the video card, rather then (potentially) keeping it all cached on the card.
Eralus	Posted - 2007.04.11 01:27:00 - [23] Put the texture map in the card's memory, then update that location in the card's memory when the text changes. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm	Posted - 2007.04.11 03:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Masheine Hate to tell you, man, but it's you that's way, way off on this. Everything is a triangle. Everything. Even each individual letter of text is two triangles. Games left straight up blitting and line drawing and such behind when 3D hardware became mainstream, and DirectDraw was removed from the DX apis. Sorry, you are entirely wrong. By and large text in games IS still just blitted in 2D. Even if it is properly rendered from TrueType fonts with anti aliasing, those are drawn with splines and curves, not triangles, and still take FAR less computation than rendering 3D. There is NO excuse for an unchanging 2D overlay to drastically reduce the fps on a 3D background.
Mskpath3	Posted - 2007.04.11 05:33:00 - [25] Edited by: Mskpath3 on 11/04/2007 05:31:07 Edited by: Mskpath3 on 11/04/2007 05:30:30 Originally by: Gaogan Sorry, you are entirely wrong. By and large text in games IS still just blitted in 2D. Even if it is properly rendered from TrueType fonts with anti aliasing, those are drawn with splines and curves, not triangles, and still take FAR less computation than rendering 3D. There is NO excuse for an unchanging 2D overlay to drastically reduce the fps on a 3D background. Friend, I am afraid you are incorrect. As I've been doing this for a living for the past ten years, I can say with assuredness - text rendering is done as triangles. You are confusing the term "3d geometry" and "triangle". Modern video hardware draws triangles, period. When you want to draw fancy spaceships on a screen you have to do a lot more work to get those triangles in your screen space coordinates (your vertex shader). But when you're just drawing text, there's very little work involved. You just set the texture you want to use and draw a triangle strip with the texture coordinates of the letters you want. That said, it is not entirely uncommon to find text rendering taking up a lot of time even in a well made rendering pipeline. It's a function of drawing "a couple of really huge triangle lists" (say, a ship) vs. "a whooooole lot of very small triangle lists" (text). The former is real fast and hardware likes it. The latter can be quite slow if you organize your code the wrong way. Given CCP's background as a non-industry (game industry that is) group of programmers and that the engine is 4 years old, my money is on a a horribly GPU stalling 2d/ui drawing library :)
Mike Yagon Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.11 06:16:00 - [26] Originally by: MrLobster So switching audio back on last night brought back memories of my noob days, priceless. QFT. Especially the jukebox brings back memories. ------ In Carebear We Trust
Savio Caldari The Nine Gates Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.04.11 07:08:00 - [27] are u all playing eve on your p2 - 233mhz ??? on my mashine the game runs smooth, no lag no nothing.. how about doing a little of updating your systems? old system: 3000+ 9700ati pro 1gb ram new system 1: dual core 4200+ 7800gt 2gb ram new system 2: opteron 185 7800gt 2gb ram my laptop: pentium m (dothian) 1.8ghz 9700pro 1gb ram all of these computers ran eve smoothly in window mode!.... . Need a Sign? Click Here
MrLobster Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.04.11 11:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: MrLobster I once played eve with sound. Then I joined a 0.0 alliance. Then started using TeamSpeak... found warping my ship seemed to interfere with peoples voices. Then noticed running 2 accounts with sound effects really sucked Found running sound on 1 account in pvp also sucked. So switching audio back on last night brought back memories of my noob days, priceless. Promptly followed by unchecking the audio box.... [off topic]Clean up your sig please its kinda messy[/off topic] [off topic] Your probably refering to the random transparency bug thats in your browser :P. Dont worry I sent a patch via Windows update thats fixed it :) I was messing with the sig to get it to use 3 frames and be under 24000b, surficed to say it didnt work :( [/off topic] __________________________ My sig changes once work gets boring... yes it was a slow day today.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.04.11 11:43:00 - [29] A pretty uneducated question, but if a UI box is made of two triangles plus more for the special and pointless light effect on it i guess, then why don't they just colour those two triangles with the text, instead of rendering each letter of the text as two individual triangles/letter ? Basically, why can't or won't they make the two triangles compromising any given UI box into a texture on which the information is drawn and refreshed as needed ? snip - Image not appropriate for eve-o forums - hutch true amarr tank shields!
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.04.11 12:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Savio are u all playing eve on your p2 - 233mhz ??? on my mashine the game runs smooth, no lag no nothing.. how about doing a little of updating your systems? old system: 3000+ 9700ati pro 1gb ram new system 1: dual core 4200+ 7800gt 2gb ram new system 2: opteron 185 7800gt 2gb ram my laptop: pentium m (dothian) 1.8ghz 9700pro 1gb ram all of these computers ran eve smoothly in window mode!.... Firstly, hes not even talking about lag, hes saying the writing takes 30 fps. Secondly, Only retards and kids feel the need to show off there systems. Grow up and learn to read.



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