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A Brief Note on the Theology Council Edict on Souls of Clones.

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Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 494	Posted - 2016.12.23 12:13:44 - [1] - Quote Recently the Theology Council has released an edict on cloning that states that clones "embody souls in communion with the Imperial Rite as the flesh of their birth would speak to us." Having read through the previous discussion on this matter, I think there has been some confusion on the issue. Pilots seem to have understood this as a statement that clones as a whole are not different than non-clones from a religious standpoint. This is not at all what the edict says. The first words specify that clones embody souls. This is worth some discussion on its own as it is a rejection of simplistic GÇ£soul is lost on first cloningGÇ¥ interpretations of the issue. It is not, however, a rejection of more complex interpretations that have souls being degraded by cloning. The evidence for the latter is clear and all but undeniable when we examine the activities of the nullsec barbarians. Clearly the act of cloning causes damage. The rest specifies that the embodied souls that are in communion with the Imperial Rite are like the flesh of their birth. The Imperial Rite is the key to understanding this. The Amarrian Imperial Rite causes the souls of faithful Amarr who are actively participating in the holy rituals to avoid the damage that is normally caused by cloning. The news report that said clones and non-clones were the same from a religious standpoint is a product of media commentators failing to understand theological nuance. Clones and original bodies in general are not the same. It is only the clones who are in good standing with the Faith and active participants in the Rite that have had their souls restored to their original pre-clone state. Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
Mizhara Del'thul Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 1007	Posted - 2016.12.23 12:21:13 - [2] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: Because literally magic. In space.
Master Sunfang EVE Enlightened 18	Posted - 2016.12.23 12:49:22 - [3] - Quote Break the heart, free the soul. When you do things right, people wonGÇÖt be sure youGÇÖve done anything at all.
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 360	Posted - 2016.12.23 13:39:44 - [4] - Quote Mizhara Del'thul wrote: Gaven Lok'ri wrote: Because literally magic. In space. It would be unwise to deny some effects of cloning and capsuleer life as a whole on a human mind, psyche and soul. As it is stated in the OP certain evidence could be indeed tracked by looking closely in capsuleer day to day activities. Stating that it is only evident of nullsec dwelling capsuleers is, well lets just say an overly big simplification. So no, not really magic, unless of course you define human emotional and moral nature as magic. Also, it would be a welcome sight to see more studies and debate across the big four and not only in the Empire.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1875	Posted - 2016.12.23 14:27:35 - [5] - Quote Mizhara Del'thul wrote: Gaven Lok'ri wrote: Because literally magic. In space. Something something something, Voluval tattoos, something something, Minmatar accusing others of 'magic' height of hypocrisy, something something. Anyway, it is indeed well known, that cloning is, at best, a high 99.9% reliability. There are always bits that aren't transferred. Memories, ability to play musical instruments, various other things. Given however that the spaceship-related memory retention has been perfected to 100%, then the loss of other memories or aspects of the personality are considered acceptable losses. Over time, this would indeed represent damage to the soul, and, if adherence to Imperial Orthodox rituals can repair this damage, such that each cloning incident does not further degrade the personality, then, well, that's good. Of course, I am obliged, as one of the most compassionate Sani Sabik missionaries in New Eden, to point out, that other rituals that can repair the soul, do in fact exist. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2731	Posted - 2016.12.23 14:45:40 - [6] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: The evidence for the latter is clear and all but undeniable when we examine the activities of the nullsec barbarians. Clearly the act of cloning causes damage. Yes, because none of the capsuleers in nullsec are Amarrian faithful, no baseliners in null engage in those kind of brutal criminal activities, and certainly no baseliners in Empire-controlled space would behave that way. Correlation is not causality. Don't be dumb because it lets you wallow in your confirmation bias.
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 497	Posted - 2016.12.23 14:52:49 - [7] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Gaven Lok'ri wrote: The evidence for the latter is clear and all but undeniable when we examine the activities of the nullsec barbarians. Clearly the act of cloning causes damage. Yes, because none of the capsuleers in nullsec are Amarrian faithful, no baseliners in null engage in those kind of brutal criminal activities, and certainly no baseliners in Empire-controlled space would behave that way. Correlation is not causality. Don't be dumb because it lets you wallow in your confirmation bias. It is interesting that you believe that brutality is solely what I was speaking of in my statement. Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2733	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:10:33 - [8] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: It is interesting that you believe that brutality is solely what I was speaking of in my statement. Though I would agree that I should have added an "among others" after "nullsec barbarians." There are several signs of soul damage that seem to be unique to the cloned. Generally speaking, when you invoke 'barbarians', you're implying a certain standard of viciousness. As for soul damage: first, prove that something exists to be damaged.
Andreus Ixiris SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore 6052	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:12:05 - [9] - Quote Caveat lector: Having been raised as an adherent of the Ida, and still in some ways being an adherent of the Ida, my opinion upon this subject may be biased. The concept of the soul dates from a time when human culture had no access to medical knowledge on the workings of the nervous system and the brain. For atheists this fact is illustrative and for theists it's coincidental. People saw that some injuries would, without being fatal, cause a person to lapse into a state of unconsciousness from which they would not wake. Certain behaviours would manifest from certain people without apparent cause. Some explanation was needed as to what the animating force of a human was. As science peeled away layers of mystery from how the human body worked, we understood that the seat of human consciousness was the brain and that damage to it could damage or destroy what we conceived of as the person. Yet we were never able to dispense entirely with the idea that there's an element of human consciousness that cannot be accurately described or measured by science, which religious individuals would call the soul and contemporary science blithely terms the "infomorph." Consciousness is not merely an arrangement of neurones or a specific brain chemistry balance, things that the transneural burning scanner can accurately measure and transmit. You have a continuous experience of being you, a sense of something that looks out from behind your eyes. That is - so far as we can know - an indivisible and inseperable characteristic of a functioning, sentient human being. This entity begins to exist upon birth and, depending on your beliefs, either ceases to exist upon death or goes somewhere else beyond the capacity of science to measure. For baseliners this is a simple issue. For infomorphic humans - capsuleers, clone soldiers and if rumours are to be believed, other professions as well - less so. My first death as a capsuleer was in an asteroid belt in Uemon, more than ten years ago. Do I have true continuity of consciousness from that point? The issue is that the only entity that could ever know that is the "soul" of the person whose body died that day. If they continue to exist in this world - through inhabiting a succession of bodies that, ultimately, has become me - only they could possibly know that. If not, there is absolutely no way to tell, because I certainly feel like I am that same "soul." A properly-prepared body injected with the memories and neural structure of Andreus Ixiris will experience life as Andreus Ixiris, functionally indistinguishable from Andreus Ixiris. But is he actually Andreus Ixiris, the original, the one that was born on Intaki thirty four years ago, or is he an impostor so perfect even he can't tell he isn't the original? "What of the immortal soul in these transactions? Can this machine transmit and reattach that as well? Or does it leave a soulless body, to wonder the world in despair?" - Anonymous Hedion University student, Commentaries on the Empyrean, YC 110 I would suggest that maybe it isn't the interpretation of the Theology Council's judgement that needs to be addressed. I'd suggest it's their methodology and the validity of the judgement itself. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 497	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:23:17 - [10] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Gaven Lok'ri wrote: It is interesting that you believe that brutality is solely what I was speaking of in my statement. Though I would agree that I should have added an "among others" after "nullsec barbarians." There are several signs of soul damage that seem to be unique to the cloned. Generally speaking, when you invoke 'barbarians', you're implying a certain standard of viciousness. Or lack of culture and history. Lord Admiral of PIE inc.

Sinjin Mokk Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 1063	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:29:38 - [11] - Quote The TL;DR version: The Theology Council jumped through ecclesiastical hoops to legitimize Jamyl Sarum after the Drifters killed here in her pod, thus exposing her status as a. Capsuleer. But you must not ask questions because otherwise you're a BAD PERSON. "Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 497	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:33:19 - [12] - Quote I am just going to note now that I am not going to engage with arguments about the non-existence of immortal souls. The presence of non-believers on this forum is not news to anyone. I would politely suggest that if you aren't going to work with the basic premise of seriously considering the Theology Council ruling, then this thread is maybe not the correct place for your commentary. Not that I expect this to stop many of the regular posters on this venue. Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2733	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:33:45 - [13] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: Or lack of culture and history. Or even both. Given the context, I'm sure you can see why I felt certain things were clearly implied, even if you weren't intending to be. Language is a precise tool, when you let it be. And you haven't addressed the second part of my response. I'm an engineer. If you want to tell me something's being damaged, then great, let's find a way to fix it. But first, you've gotta demonstrate that it's there to be damaged, or you might as well be telling me that stargate travel causes internal bleeding in wolves. There ain't no such critterGÇöother than than the frigate class, of courseGÇöso gate travel can't make 'em bleed.
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 497	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:34:48 - [14] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: The TL;DR version: The Theology Council jumped through ecclesiastical hoops to legitimize Jamyl Sarum after the Drifters killed here in her pod, thus exposing her status as a. Capsuleer. But you must not ask questions because otherwise you're a BAD PERSON. If you are going to do a summary, you might at least try to make it an even remotely accurate one. Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 497	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:37:29 - [15] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Gaven Lok'ri wrote: Or lack of culture and history. Or even both. Given the context, I'm sure you can see why I felt certain things were clearly implied, even if you weren't intending to be. Language is a precise tool, when you let it be. And you haven't addressed the second part of my response. I'm an engineer. If you want to tell me something's being damaged, then great, let's find a way to fix it. But first, you've gotta demonstrate that it's there to be damaged, or you might as well be telling me that stargate travel causes internal bleeding in wolves. There ain't no such critterGÇöother than than the frigate class, of courseGÇöso gate travel can't make 'em bleed. We cross posted on your second point. I won't be engaging with this line of discussion. There is plenty of literature on this forum and in libraries everywhere on the question of whether souls exist, we do not need to rehash it. Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
Andreus Ixiris SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore 6054	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:49:39 - [16] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: I am just going to note now that I am not going to engage with arguments about the non-existence of immortal souls. The presence of non-believers on this forum is not news to anyone. I would politely suggest that if you aren't going to work with the basic premise of seriously considering the Theology Council ruling, then this thread is maybe not the correct place for your commentary. Not that I expect this to stop many of the regular posters on this venue. I am not attempting to advocate for or against the existence of immortal souls. What I am suggesting is that the Theology Council's judgement is deeply questionable. If they have quantifiable, reproducable evidence that the spark of essential consciousness can be transmitted via transneural burning scanner, I want to see it - it would most certainly put my mind (and soul!) at ease. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2733	Posted - 2016.12.23 15:49:45 - [17] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: I would politely suggest that if you aren't going to work with the basic premise of seriously considering the Theology Council ruling, then this thread is maybe not the correct place for your commentary. Not that I expect this to stop many of the regular posters on this venue. I think the question of how to interpret the Theology Council's ruling rests directly on the twin questions of intent and language. As I said, language is a precision tool. However, as our previous statements illustrate, what is intended can often be other than what is communicated. And so for to correctly interpret language through the lens of intent, it's important to understand and be able to judge the mental state of those making the statement. And that raises potential issues with a ruling like this. If I were to gather a bunch of people and issue a completely serious ruling about gate travel and the internal distress of a mythological creature, and expect people to give that ruling significant weight within their awareness of animal cruelty, all without being able to supply a shred of evidence that my subject matter even exists, the way to interpret that 'ruling' would be clear: I'm insane. So, i put it to you that in order to work with the basic premise of seriously considering the Theology Council's ruling, one must establish the existence of the subject matter. Otherwise, the only interpretation would seem self-evident.
Alizabeth Vea Seraph's Wings Vengeful Seraph 1007	Posted - 2016.12.23 16:23:51 - [18] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: The TL;DR version: The Theology Council jumped through ecclesiastical hoops to legitimize Jamyl Sarum after the Drifters killed her in her pod, thus exposing her status as a Capsuleer. But you must not ask questions because otherwise you're a BAD PERSON. All of Amarr knew she was a capsuleer. All of the heirs to Emperor Heideran VII were. Even I know this, and I've only been at the faithful bit for a few years. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Vlad Cetes No.Mercy Triumvirate. 91	Posted - 2016.12.23 16:52:05 - [19] - Quote Gaven Lok'ri wrote: The first words specify that clones embody souls. This is worth some discussion on its own as it is a rejection of simplistic GÇ£soul is lost on first cloningGÇ¥ interpretations of the issue. It is not, however, a rejection of more complex interpretations that have souls being degraded by cloning. The evidence for the latter is clear and all but undeniable when we examine the activities of the nullsec barbarians. Clearly the act of cloning causes damage. What is your proof that cloning causes damage? Do you have a device that can measure soul strength and produce a reproducible study on that?
Mizhara Del'thul Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 1009	Posted - 2016.12.23 17:20:02 - [20] - Quote However much fun it is to see these attempts to incorporate another fairly simple aspect of the modern world into their mysticism in a vain attempt to keep it relevant in this day and age, the matter is worth discussing once you drop the ridiculous trappings of 'faith'. Yes, repeated cloning can have an effect on people due to imperfect infomorph transfer. This is not by any means certain to be damage to the infomorph since this also happens every day on its own. Some experiences are forgotten, some are added, some drown in substance abuse, some are imagined and the sum total of what makes up 'you' changes all the time. Some infinitesimal change has next to no real impact that isn't already rivaled or far surpassed by all the other natural mechanics that does the same. The technology will also improve and advance, reducing this even further as time passes. I would claim with a fair bit of confidence - borne from what data we do have, and personal experience - that the cloning process can almost be entirely dismissed as the cause of CeeDee or whatever other buzzword that finds itself favored by the doomsayers and gossipmongers. Consider the sheer differences between the lives of baseliners and capsuleers. Consider the experiences. Power difference. Wealth difference. Practical immortality. Add in almost constant conflict - by most baseliner standards -, oceans of blood spilled, complete changes in perspective and a complete change in enforced responsibility for actions. Even the most peaceful of highsec dweller - mining or trading their way to wealth through the war economy we dabble in - has a life so vastly abnormal and arguably unnatural compared to baseliners that it is frankly ludicrous to start trying to blame something so insignificant as the cloning process for the aberrations we see in capsuleer behaviours, and that's not even taking the ridiculous leap of faith - or drunken tumble down mount dumbarse - it requires to start adding claims about souls into the mix. It would be very interesting to see good research done on every facet of that non-euclidean lookin' jewel we call Capsuleer Dementia, but until such research has been performed it'd probably serve us all better to use at least some reason rather than jump to conclusions that are entirely baseless. Which brings us to the Theology Council, but then when the hell have they actually had to produce their work? It's telling that even something as basic and simple as 'peer review' would in all likelihood see them laughed out of any sensible company.

Samira Kernher 2934	Posted - 2016.12.23 17:42:14 - [21] - Quote Arrendis wrote: And that raises potential issues with a ruling like this. If I were to gather a bunch of people and issue a completely serious ruling about gate travel and the internal distress of a mythological creature, and expect people to give that ruling significant weight within their awareness of animal cruelty, all without being able to supply a shred of evidence that my subject matter even exists, the way to interpret that 'ruling' would be clear: I'm insane. So, i put it to you that in order to work with the basic premise of seriously considering the Theology Council's ruling, one must establish the existence of the subject matter. Otherwise, the only interpretation would seem self-evident. The existence of it is established in multiple Scriptural writings and debates that have taken place over hundreds of years. While this might shock you, this edict is operating from a standpoint where the existence of a soul is considered common understanding. It is not something that is in doubt to any Amarr, and is not something that the edict has to be concerned about proving. If you don't believe in that, then fine, but it also then means that this edict shouldn't be of any concern to you either. What you are doing is trying to essentially dismiss a finding on planetary flight mechanics by saying, "But wait, you need to prove that gravity exists!" We already know that souls exist. We have evidence that is considered valid under Amarrian discourse. This is not a debate about the existence of souls. If you don't agree with Amarrian discourse and theology, well then we're at an impasse and there's no real point in arguing because your disagreement is with the entire system, not individual rulings. And the Theology Council is not just 'a bunch of people'. It is the supreme theological body of Amarr, and it has been debating this issue internally for years among Amarr's highest ranking priests and philosophers, people with decades of experience and certified by numerous institutions. Evidence was brought forward, discussed, and confirmed or refuted. They even already mentioned two pieces of evidence that were used--of Empress Jamyl's second body and Lord Heir Aritcio's full-body cloning. This ruling was not pulled out of a hat. The only thing off about it is its timing.
Andreus Ixiris SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore 6055	Posted - 2016.12.23 17:54:32 - [22] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: What you are doing is trying to essentially dismiss a finding on planetary flight mechanics by saying, "But wait, you need to prove that gravity exists!" The difference is that any scientist working on planetary flight mechanics will easily be able to prove the existence of gravity and explain its workings, and will likely have factored calculations related to aspects of gravitation that are empirically demonstrable into their work. Your analogy is untenable. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Samira Kernher 2934	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:14:30 - [23] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: I am not attempting to advocate for or against the existence of immortal souls. What I am suggesting is that the Theology Council's judgement is deeply questionable. If they have quantifiable, reproducable evidence that the spark of essential consciousness can be transmitted via transneural burning scanner, I want to see it - it would most certainly put my mind (and soul!) at ease. I think I know where you are coming from here. Though I think that it is inherently limiting to put much faith in the idea of the TEBS having any direct contact with the soul as a mechanical operation. We can't really speak about the soul 'moving' with the body like some invisible aura. Souls are part of the spiritual, not the physical, so they can't really be viewed with the same perceptions of time and space. Rather, the essential information that makes up a person's identity, a perfect digital blueprint of their neural map, does transfer, and ergo, as determined by the TC, the soul must still have some connection because the person remains the same person in essence. Essentially, from a non-theistic perspective, the TC is taking a position on the philosophical debate over whether an exact copy of a person is the same person, and saying that "yes, they are." What the ruling is establishing is that the copy of a person still maintains an essential link to the soul, and that if they did not maintain that link then they would be an entirely different person, or rather a non-person, a machine. It is more of a philosophical ruling than a physical one: the soul remains regardless of any break in physical continuation, and therefore the person is fundamentally the same person. As someone who found it difficult to view copies as the same person, in that I believed that upon cloning you die and are replaced by someone exactly like you but fundamentally not you, this edict is something that has been very difficulty for me to come to terms with. I would like to believe it.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 545	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:17:32 - [24] - Quote Vlad Cetes wrote: What is your proof that cloning causes damage? You. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Samira Kernher 2934	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:29:05 - [25] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: What you are doing is trying to essentially dismiss a finding on planetary flight mechanics by saying, "But wait, you need to prove that gravity exists!" The difference is that any scientist working on planetary flight mechanics will easily be able to prove the existence of gravity and explain its workings, and will likely have factored calculations related to aspects of gravitation that are empirically demonstrable into their work. Your analogy is untenable. So can any theologist working on discussions pertaining to the soul. It is a philosophical study. It is about discovering the meaning behind something. As far as any Amarr is concerned, the soul is proven. There are thousands of debates, historical events, natural discoveries, and Scriptural passages that have all been brought forward and cited. No one just up and went 'aha, there is a soul!' at random and was taken at his word. We look at evidence and finding meaning from that evidence. But for someone to accept the evidence they have to accept the basis on which that evidence is being judged. Again, it's about the system. A person who studies philosophy or psychology is going to have a different perspective of the human consciousness than someone that studies biology. The biology can certainly inform the debate, it provides an accounting of the physical processes of human existence, but what we define as human personality or purpose comes from debate about what those processes mean. Science is the how, theology/philosophy are the why.
Katerina Tzestu Reikoku Pandemic Legion 26	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:34:15 - [26] - Quote Mitara Newelle wrote: Vlad Cetes wrote: What is your proof that cloning causes damage? You. Beat me to it.
Vlad Cetes No.Mercy Triumvirate. 91	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:47:39 - [27] - Quote Mitara Newelle wrote: Vlad Cetes wrote: What is your proof that cloning causes damage? You. Incorrect on many points: 1) Data is constantly checked and updated against the prime preventing errors 2) Instability in our biological predecessor is not cloning related 3) True immortality is worth any so-called soul damage (assuming for this argument a soul does exist)
Mizhara Del'thul Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 1012	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:49:03 - [28] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: but because we can look at the full extent of creation and human history and from that evidence posit "there must be one." Show your work and no credit for partial answers.
Andreus Ixiris SergalJerk Test Alliance Please Ignore 6056	Posted - 2016.12.23 18:50:17 - [29] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: So can any theologist working on discussions pertaining to the soul. It is a philosophical study. It is about discovering the meaning behind something. As far as any Amarr is concerned, the soul is proven. Which merely reinforces my point that you cannot make an analogy between it and reproducable scientific matters. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" may satisfy your philosophy (although it does not satisfy mine), but in matters of scientific study God needs to submit to peer review like everyone else. Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all. Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus. Andreus Ixiris > ... Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Saya Ishikari Akagi Initiative 394	Posted - 2016.12.23 19:09:31 - [30] - Quote Equivalents are difficult to achieve when it comes to belief being pit against scientific method. The former cannot prove itself, in many cases, and the latter cannot disprove the former sufficiently to render it unbelievable. The perspective one takes decides which is superior on an individual basis. "At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117



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