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The Criminal Element

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Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:49:00 - [1] I have played Eve off and on for about 2.5 years. Recent frustrations with the game and the criminal element in EVE have brought me to the conclusion that in EVE the player criminal element (ore thieves, pirates, and players with nothing better to do but to gank people in low sec space) is dealt with far to lightly in higher sector space. I can't tell you the number of times I have come back to EVE only to have a nice ship lost and pod killed by a player for no reason. Before when EVE was a smaller game the criminal element was also a much smaller percentage of the game. Now however it seems that the moment you enter low sec space there is some one there waiting to have fun at your expense. I understand that that is supposed to be a part of the game. However pirates have always been a problem throughout history, but whenever they have become a large problem like they have in EVE hey been hunted down till the problem was small again. It used to be that entering low sec space was a risk but not almost a guarantee to be attacked. Now players enter low sec space with pretty much a guarantee to be attacked unless they enter in groups or in space that is controlled by an alliance they are part of. I don't think CCP intended that every low sec space be haunted by players wishing others harm. Now maybe I am wrong and I am just putting my feelings on the matter out to be discussed and as perhaps a suggestion to CCP. My suggestions on the criminal element of EVE is this: 1.Pirate corps should not be welcome in high sec space. Pirates have never been welcome in places where the authorities have control and EVE should be no different. Every NPC Police Corp in EVE should be at war with player run corps who support and play as pirates. The NPC pirate factions are at war and I see no reason why the powers at be would view player run pirate corps any different. NPC corps should also be take a stance on piracy and players and corps who have been marked as such will not be able to dock at those corps stations and may be fired on by their security forces. 2.Ore thieves need to also not be welcome in high sec space. Stealing in high sec space should carry some other penalty results such as in a fine, the fact that concord is going to destroy your ship, or a much larger security standing loss then currently. I was recently in a situation where an ore thief came and stole over an hours worth of work from me in .8 space and then sat and waited for me to fire on him while he was in a heavy assault cruiser. Players who live in high sec space are often there because they are not ready skill wise for low sec space, not financially ready, or many just do not want to deal with the problems in low sec space. Thefts in high sec space should be considered a major crime as not only are they using a loophole in the system but they are often preying upon new players who may leave EVE as a result. The last reason in my mind is the most prominent as to why these players need to be dealt with in a serious manner. Besides stealing in high sec space should be like stealing in front of a cop. We know those results. 3.I would suggest that alliances that claim sovereignty over a area be able to set rules and in essence change the security level of the system by hiring NPC security forces to enforce those settings. Of course rats and ore would stay the same in the systems and area's affected. 4.Bounties need to be reworked. I'm not sure how but in a game where one can just allow friends to ôkillö you and then split the bounty, has defeated the purpose of having them. Perhaps a bounty system where players can offer their services on the contract system would work.
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:49:00 - [2] 5.My understanding of players with high security stats is that they for the most part do not perform acts of piracy and engage in PVP for wars or in defense. If this is the case killing players with these high standing should result in a large amount of security loss for the corp that the player has high standings in as they are well respected people to those corps. 6..4-.2 space should have random patrols by NPC security forces. Low sec space shouldn't be completely lawless just mostly. Like I have said these are just my observations upon the matters I have put forth and I am placing them here for a DISCUSSION, not a flame war. This is a game and players of all types should be able to have fun. I just feel that the criminal type of play has begun to get out of hand and is threatening the balance of the game.
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 20:56:00 - [3] Originally by: Carnedo WAAAAHHH!!! I'm an alt. WAAAAH!! My diaper needs a change. Fixed.
Trevin Starwind Amarr Terra Incognita Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:03:00 - [4] That the criminal element has been growing is true. People playing their style and not caring that others might not like that way. My favorite is " quit whining or leave", question is why should they leave, why cant the offender leave? Pirates and Criminals have always been dealth with in sivilized worlds. but here it goes under the pretence its a PvP game. PvP doesnt mean combat and killing in EvE it means Players compete against eachother in all from Combat yes to trading and missions. Im sure the flamewars will start over this but im wearing an asbestos suit.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:05:00 - [5] 1. They are not welcome, they get shot at when they enter anything higher than .5 2. Dont jet can mine, and bring backup when you do. Protecting your ore is YOUR responsibility not CCP's or Concords. 3. Its the alliances job to protect their own space form hostiles. CCP/Concord have no biz being there. 4. I agree that its an issue, but real pirates want big bounties its a badge of honor. Real pirates will never pod them selves for isk. 5. it already does, its % based pod someone with 5.0 standings and you take a much bigger hit than if your -5.0 6. Thats why there are gate guns, It requires pirates to plan and work together to gank you most of the time at a gate. your perfectly safe from interceptors, frigs, and most cruisers when traveling gate to gate. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:20:00 - [6] First of... Thank you Redfall for so vividly painting my point about the criminal element. 1.This is true if your security stading is low however I am talking about the player run pirate corps. They and any member should not be welcome in high sec space. 2.While I understand the concept high sec space is considered ôsafe spaceö. I should be a place for people to play safely and without worry. Concord is there and for a role play aspect of the game as well as a logical point I'm sure that Concord if a real life police force in space would deal with theft seriously. Try breaking in to someone car or house in front of the police and see if they do nothing. 3.I did not say CCP or Concord, I said hired NPC guns. It's a game not real life and people do need to sleep and go to work. Besides A big corp with sovereignty over a section of space should be able to hire NPC help.
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:27:00 - [7] Originally by: Carnedo First of... Thank you Redfall for so vividly painting my point about the criminal element. I do what I can to cut through the bull ** and get rid to the nut-meat of the post. Originally by:** Carnedo 1.This is true if your security stading is low however I am talking about the player run pirate corps. They and any member should not be welcome in high sec space. They ain't. That's the basic point. Originally by: Carnedo 2.While I understand the concept high sec space is considered ôsafe spaceö. I should be a place for people to play safely and without worry. Concord is there and for a role play aspect of the game as well as a logical point I'm sure that Concord if a real life police force in space would deal with theft seriously. Try breaking in to someone car or house in front of the police and see if they do nothing. Nowhere is it ever said that high sec is safe. Even in posh areas like Beverly Hills you will still have a good 4 or 5 minute wait for a police arrival. Most house invaders can ransack your home in less than five minutes. So, I refer to my original post: Originally by: RedFall Originally by: Carnedo WAAAAHHH!!! I'm an alt. WAAAAH!! My diaper needs a change.
Zhett Haukes Shih Yang Tong	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:43:00 - [8] I think the thing is, high sec isn't supposed to be safe space, it is supposed to be *safer*. Ore theft is only a problem if you jetcan mine. I know it makes the mining aspect easier, but the fact that it can be taken from you is what you pay for the convenience. About lowsec being full of pirates, I was under the impression that that was the point? I don't want to fall back on cliches here, but no one is forcing you in there? I am sure you could find a group of like minded people to gang up and go into any lowsec system, a big enough group and only the bigger pirate corps will think about attacking you - maybe even go anti pirate and bring the fight to them! At the end of the day (cliche alert!) Eve is a pvp game, and if being open to attack anywhere doesn't do it for you, maybe you need to reevaluate whether you are playing the right game for you?
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:44:00 - [9] Oh man I feel so sorry for you cause by tonight this thread will be extended to 3 pages of flames at your expense. There is a lot in EVE that doesn't make sense, low sec being one of them. It's the dark grey of grey zones. For example as far as the NPC side of things, why are there missions, agents, frozen food factories, etc in low sec? The only thing one should find in low sec is criminals, contraband, and virgin asteroid fields. My belief is that criminal activity in EVE will eventually supersede all storyline, all alliances, everything. Why? Because in EVE the evil doer is propped up and respected far more than the hero or do gooder. Because as a pirate you can hold on to your main's low sec status as a badge of honor while doing everything else you ever wanted in game with an alt. Best you can do is wait to see what Revelations 2.0 brings. ***
Brisi Veto.	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Carnedo First of... Thank you Redfall for so vividly painting my point about the criminal element. 1.This is true if your security stading is low however I am talking about the player run pirate corps. They and any member should not be welcome in high sec space. 2.While I understand the concept high sec space is considered ôsafe spaceö. I should be a place for people to play safely and without worry. Concord is there and for a role play aspect of the game as well as a logical point I'm sure that Concord if a real life police force in space would deal with theft seriously. Try breaking in to someone car or house in front of the police and see if they do nothing. 3.I did not say CCP or Concord, I said hired NPC guns. It's a game not real life and people do need to sleep and go to work. Besides A big corp with sovereignty over a section of space should be able to hire NPC help. 1. And who would decide what corps shouldn't be allowed? The GM's? You? Should it just be any corp who has a pirate in it? So what happens when a guy joins a random non-pirate corp. Then pirates someone. Then the whole corp automatically gets banned from high sec, and they need to petition to get it fixed? Don't fix what isn't broken, the security status system works perfectly well as it is. 2. High sec is 'safer space', it's not absolutely safe, and it was never meant to be. Ultimately you can protect your ore yourself, either by having corp mates helping, or using secure cans. Jet can's was never meant to be used for mining to begin with. Just because you're too damn lazy to do stuff yourself, doesn't mean that the developers should change the game just so it fits you better. Adapt. 3. That suggestion is just so outrageous that I don't know where to begin, so I'll just give you the short version. If an alliance can't protect its space itself, then it has no business owning it. That's a simple as it gets. 0.0 is completely lawless, and nobody should be able to hire NPC's to make it safe for them. Just contemplate this, a carebear alliance takes sovereignty of a system, then raises the security level of that system to 1.0 (and ofcourse you want the great ratting and mining with it ) then no one can attack anyone in that system, and the carebear alliance basically has a safe system forever that no one can conquer. I'd vager that you are a new player, who's just come from some WoW-like game where the Dev's cater to the lazy and stupid players. If someone can't figure out how to do something, or is basically unwilling to do it, they just whine enough and the Dev's change it to suit them. Well EVE isn't like that, and it will never be like that. They day it does, is the day EVE dies. Now have a coke & a smile and get your whining ass back to WoW. -Brisi Resistance is Fertile.
Zhett Haukes Shih Yang Tong	Posted - 2007.04.11 21:52:00 - [11] Edited by: Zhett Haukes on 11/04/2007 21:48:12 Originally by: Brisi Shortened Points applauds Agree with you 100% You summed it up better than me
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:02:00 - [12] Edited by: Carnedo on 11/04/2007 21:59:35 Edited by: Carnedo on 11/04/2007 21:59:04 wow...as usual the put up or shut up people are the fastest on the topic..anyways anyone for a discussion or have we lost the ability to do that here on the net? I asked for one and so far only two ppl have managed. anyways as far as the flagging the corps as pirate corps I think that that would be left to the gm's and need to go off of their observations and the corps members sec statis as a whole. oh and corps that say they are pirate groups in their discriptions would also be a good way :)
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Carnedo Edited by: Carnedo on 11/04/2007 21:59:35 Edited by: Carnedo on 11/04/2007 21:59:04 wow...as usual the put up or shut up people are the fastest on the topic..anyways anyone for a discussion or have we lost the ability to do that here on the net? I asked for one and so far only two ppl have managed. anyways as far as the flagging the corps as pirate corps I think that that would be left to the gm's and need to go off of their observations and the corps members sec statis as a whole. oh and corps that say they are pirate groups in their discriptions would also be a good way :) Excuse us but it seems everyone has given you a response. The only one here is doesn't want to have a discussion is you. So, ummm, put up or shut up.
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:07:00 - [14] now explain to my how .6+ space is not "safe space"... you can't pvp on the fly, you caint attack or be attacked without a reason, and somehow the only thing you can do is fly around run missions in that space...sounds like "safe space to me.
Brisi Veto.	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Carnedo Edited by: Carnedo on 11/04/2007 21:59:35 Edited by: Carnedo on 11/04/2007 21:59:04 wow...as usual the put up or shut up people are the fastest on the topic..anyways anyone for a discussion or have we lost the ability to do that here on the net? I asked for one and so far only two ppl have managed. anyways as far as the flagging the corps as pirate corps I think that that would be left to the gm's and need to go off of their observations and the corps members sec statis as a whole. oh and corps that say they are pirate groups in their discriptions would also be a good way :) So I say 'shut up' one time, and I'm automatically grouped the 'ZOMG FLAME' group? Okay, please look beyond my one remark about you needing to close your whining yap, and actually read my post. All the points are valid arguments for a discussion. Every single one. You just conveniently sidestepped having to argue them, nice move. The fact to the matter is, that EVE is not your average MMO, it doesn't cater to the average player (i.e you), and every once in awhile we get another reincarnation of you coming on the forums to change the game for 'the greater good', just because you can't adapt to the games' settings and rules. This is why I made my 'shut up' remark, because the faster we stop you the better. All you're going to do with this thread, is incite much worse flames than you've gotten so far. Resistance is Fertile.
Amphetaminer Grumpy Old Men	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:11:00 - [16] i agree with some of your points. Point 2 the most.. All these people who say dont jetcan mine arent single account miners.. There is no other way mining then using a jetcan! And that a thief can just steal your ore and get away with it is stupid. 100's of NPC's around that uphold the law but they just ignore theft??!
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:17:00 - [17] some people ***** about how the police cant post an officer in front of everyone's house, and complain about how the police can only punish crime, and rarely prevent it. They cannot make the leap to take responsibility for their own safety. Other people buy a gun and learn how to use it. The OP is the former. EVE encourages the latter. it's a PVP game first, and a sci-fi spacefaring game second. A lot of people assume its the other way round, and complain that EVE is not the game they expected after the fact.
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:22:00 - [18] The moment any player adds in the shut up, or your a noob lingo it becomes a flame. people who want to have a discusion leave that out. I'm more then happy to respond to people who bring their point to this post in a frendly and serious way. All that I asked was to not start this into a flame war and I am trying to keep it a discution. please just bring your points in a respectable manner.
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Carnedo The moment any player adds in the shut up, or your a noob lingo it becomes a flame. people who want to have a discusion leave that out. I'm more then happy to respond to people who bring their point to this post in a frendly and serious way. All that I asked was to not start this into a flame war and I am trying to keep it a discution. please just bring your points in a respectable manner. Good luck with that.
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:27:00 - [20] While I understand that point there is one major flaw in it. while everybody in RL could just buy a gun, in EVE one can only have as much firepower as one is trained for and can afford. New players have no access to firepower and I would really wonder the number of new players that never stayed with EVE due to the players with the firepower deciding that instead of risking their ship, I'll just steal from the guy in the mining cruiser. As far as I'm concerned that breaks in to the player abuse area.
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Carnedo While I understand that point there is one major flaw in it. while everybody in RL could just buy a gun, in EVE one can only have as much firepower as one is trained for and can afford. New players have no access to firepower and I would really wonder the number of new players that never stayed with EVE due to the players with the firepower deciding that instead of risking their ship, I'll just steal from the guy in the mining cruiser. As far as I'm concerned that breaks in to the player abuse area. You would rather have thousands of incapable players flying around? Why is your heart bleeding for the people who don't stay on Eve? And I am being serious, not flaming (for once).
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:30:00 - [22] also you will notice that concord jumps in whenever any of the other laws are broken. .4-.0 is where players should ned the guns not .6+
Brisi Veto.	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:31:00 - [23] Originally by: Carnedo The moment any player adds in the shut up, or your a noob lingo it becomes a flame. people who want to have a discusion leave that out. I'm more then happy to respond to people who bring their point to this post in a frendly and serious way. All that I asked was to not start this into a flame war and I am trying to keep it a discution. please just bring your points in a respectable manner. Yet again you bypass the actual discussion by not discussing any points at all. I wonder if this is because you're appalled by a certain agression towards you, or if it's just because you can't find any proper arguments, and would rather flame us in stead admitting defeat. Probably the first... PS. This post contains no flames, however, it does ask you to actually put forth some arguments to the discussion, and incourages you to respond in a decent and proper manner. Resistance is Fertile.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:32:00 - [24] You know there is still plenty of low sec that is empty most of the time. It does, however, require you to get a few jumps away from Jita. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:36:00 - [25] I just feel that players who abuse new players are doing eve a diservice. why would anyone stay with a game where in the 15 days they got to play they were just abused because they didnt have the firepower to fight players in a area of space that 3 year old char's have no reason to be there having fun at their expence. Remeber EVE didnt always have as many players and as time has gone on EVE has gotten the usual "ass" players who love to play mmorpg for a power rush. Now it's time to start dealing with those types of players. overall they are hurting the game and the game cammunity.
Neal Cassady Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Carnedo I don't think CCP intended that every low sec space be haunted by players wishing others harm. I am biting my tongue to keep my response as civil as possible. If CCP did not intend for players doing others harm in low-sec, then why the hell have low sec in the first place? Low security space is obviously in eve to nourish the pirate element, and the recent efforts of CCP to get mission runners into low-sec is evidence of that. Quote: Now players enter low sec space with pretty much a guarantee to be attacked unless they enter in groups the whole point of eve is to pvp as a team. whether you're in mining, production, trading, alliance warfare, or piracy you are competing against other players and you will be much more effective with allies on your side. low sec is dangerous. bring friends with you, stay smart, and low sec can also be profitable. -neal my sig got primaried and one-volleyed
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:38:00 - [27] that area of space sounded nice but now that its been mentioned I'm sure people are allready on there way to wait for me. :)
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Carnedo that area of space sounded nice but now that its been mentioned I'm sure people are allready on there way to wait for me. :) It's nice how you ignore the hard questions that we've posed. Good work.
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:46:00 - [29] ok I will rephrase the point about low sec and pvp...While CCP did intend that low sec be pvp ground. I am sure they did not intend for about every system to be a hunting ground for pirates. The real problem here is now the low sec space..its the fact that eve has to many pirates out there now. mostly what I am suggesting is that pirating needs to be slowed down and not as easy as it is now. I just feel that if low sec pirating is not dealt with some then Eve will suffer as a game. It is very hard for new players to get out to low sec space now due to the highly skilled pirates that are out there now.
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:48:00 - [30] Edited by: RedFall on 11/04/2007 22:45:54 Originally by: Carnedo It is very hard for new players to get out to low sec space now due to the highly skilled pirates that are out there now. I will repeat my question again, why does your heart bleed for new players? This isn't Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Edit: Sorry Brisi that you typed that huge response and you were #29. Sorry that I cut you off.

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