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Talya Al'Ghul	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Carnedo also you will notice that concord jumps in whenever any of the other laws are broken. .4-.0 is where players should ned the guns not .6+ I live in a fairly well to do neighborhood. (consider it '0.7' space if you will). Even at a best effort, it would take the police a good 5 minutes to arrive at my apartment . That's 5 minutes where my only protection is myself (and that's 5 minutes AFTER I call 911, assuming I can get to a phone). For that 5 minutes where my only protection is myself, I have a .45 and a full mag of Federal Hydroshok JHP's. Even though I live in a fairly well-policed area, the police are not psychic, nor can they teleport at will. So if, IRL, being in 'hi-sec space' does not grant me absolute protection in one small neighborhood, why should we envision unlimited invulnerability in EVE hi-sec? Concord can punish crime, they cannot prevent it. just like real life. by the time they arrive, your ship is quite possibly already gone. As for the whole complaining about people stealing from Jetcans, the devs have repeatedly stated that jetcan mining was not an intentional aspect of gameplay, we players came up with it. complaining that Concord doesnt punish people for it is, well, its like complaining the RL police dont arrest people for stealing from you in EVE - it's just not part of the design. [Hell, killrights for stealing from other people's cans isn't even two years old yet] what is part of the design is theft, privateering, and screwing the other guy over for profit. There's just no way around that. Unfortunately, EVE is one of the few good scifi MMO's out there, people that are sick of Fantasy MMO's play it because of that; but to restate, EVE is a PVP MMO, that just happens to be in a scifi setting. There's really no way around that.
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:51:00 - [32] grrr, alt post by accident
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.11 22:54:00 - [33] Edited by: RedFall on 11/04/2007 22:49:59 Originally by: Korad Konstentyn I have a .45 and a full mag of Federal Hydroshok JHP's. I have a 1911 .45 too. I like to alternate Hyrdrashoks and FMJs in a magazine so that you have the stopping power of the JHP and the penetration power of the FMJ. If you ever had to shoot through a car door and you only had SHP you would be screwed. Two in the chest, one in the head.
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:00:00 - [34] Originally by: RedFall I have a 1911 .45 too. I like to alternate Hyrdrashoks and FMJs in a magazine grin I was wondering how long it would take us right-to-arm-bears folks to hijack this thread once I mentioned that ;) " I propose a corrolary to Godwin's Law - "Any internet conversation that veers to the discussion of carry loads even briefly, shall henceforce become a firearms discussion, regardless of the original topic WTB: 4" Service automatic II + 5000 rnds of Guardian Tungsten .45
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:03:00 - [35] 1. Not feasible, the way things are currently structured. Now if there was also some incentive to announce that you're a "Pirate Corp", then maybe there's the seeds of something interesting in the idea. 2. Not a miner, but my understanding is ore theft is entirely avoidable by working in teams and not using jet cans. It's such a dubious idea that taking something out of a jettison container is "theft" anyway, I have no RP problem with Concord leaving it up to players to deal with the issue. 3. Why? I can't think of any reason that maintaining (or disrupting) the security of player run space shouldn't be up to the players, rather than NPCs. How would this improve anything? 4. Completely agree, though doing so is very tricky. 5. Maybe, though security standing is so easy to get now that it would be wide-open for abuse without a lot of thought put into it. I hope to see this in a very limited way in Factional Warfare. 6. Mostly I think LowSec just needs to be more worth fighting over, and players need some more tools to be able to anti-pirate effectively. Put the tools and rewards in place, and there should be no need for NPCs to do the work. I think CCP is working on those ideas. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:04:00 - [36] Originally by: Korad Konstentyn it's a PVP game first, and a sci-fi spacefaring game second. A lot of people assume its the other way round, and complain that EVE is not the game they expected after the fact. Why are you right and 'a lot' of people wrong? Why did CCP build in an economy and social structure (which is a non-pew pew form of PvP). I like PvP and live in 0.0. I beleive that lowsec is all about piracy, which is cool, but I honestly think unless you have a valid war dec in high sec and Pew Pew, ore stealing.. etc.. should be insta-concorded. I actually like to think of this as Sims in Space with Pew Pew. This game is more than what any of us here are defining it as, so suffer you GankButts and Carebears ! Still think the War Dec System needs a revamping... which CCP has already said it wants to do. Neener... and ffs people, stop flaming people that don't happen to "like" the way you do things.. it is damn childish and maybe you are a child, but Eve is for mature people sheesh... See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:05:00 - [37] What if mining skills were the longest skills to train for? So much so that to be a miner you'd really have to dedicate a significant amount of time to only being that and nothing else for a good chunk of time. The reward? Well you would be very valuable, alive and mining, as you are one of the few that can do it, and minerals of course build almost everything in EVE. You could dictate the prices on minerals, you could be very, very rich and powerful. Everything associated with mining would de-facto become very valuable as well. A hauler blown up by pirates and losing it's cargo could have devastating effects on the market and could end up harming a lot of people as the prices of goods goes through the roof. Subsequently piracy would be perceived as a real threat to everyone not just the unlucky sap who wondered off into .4. I bring this up as an example of how the power base in EVE could be more evenly distributed amongst all player types and how roles could be better defined. Unfortunately anyone can mine, it's an easy skill to learn, and so the miner has no real power or value. Piracy is popular because with enough skills you can dominate other players, systems even regions. I know how people hate the word "balance" but there is a reason why criminal activity is increasing in EVE at the expense of all other careers choices. ***
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Aindrias Why are you right and 'a lot' of people wrong? Why did CCP build in an economy and social structure (which is a non-pew pew form of PvP). It's not about me being right or not, CCP has always said that EVE is primarily a PVP game, it just happens to come in a Sci-Fi setting. A lot of new players (I was one of them), come to Eve to play a SciFi MMO, and then have a hard time adjusting to the fact that SciFi isn't this game's focus, PVP is. The economy, et al, just back that up more. Just look at the depth of storytelling in the agent missions, the complete lack of followthrough on major NPC storylines. CCP's focus just is not on creating the most compelling Science Fiction universe, it's on creating compelling PVP that just happens to be set in space.
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Korad Konstentyn Originally by: Aindrias Why are you right and 'a lot' of people wrong? Why did CCP build in an economy and social structure (which is a non-pew pew form of PvP). It's not about me being right or not, CCP has always said that EVE is primarily a PVP game, it just happens to come in a Sci-Fi setting. A lot of new players (I was one of them), come to Eve to play a SciFi MMO, and then have a hard time adjusting to the fact that SciFi isn't this game's focus, PVP is. The economy, et al, just back that up more. Just look at the depth of storytelling in the agent missions, the complete lack of followthrough on major NPC storylines. CCP's focus just is not on creating the most compelling Science Fiction universe, it's on creating compelling PVP that just happens to be set in space. IMHO It is a sci-fi game still in development and people are assuming it's only a PvP Game because CCP is still filling in the blanks of the backstory. Now that has been recently stated in interviews. I'm not sure where you're getting the "It's a Pew Pew Game" thing. See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:29:00 - [40] Hmm,,, to wade through all this stuff,, I'm not part of any great alliance, am a high sec 'carebear' as it were,, yet I don't think there's anything wrong with the current crime system. If anything, washing all the points anybody has made aside (doing so because i dont think anything is wrong with how things work now, it's just people's incapacity to adapt unless my situation is some freaky fringe case),, I'd like to see one change to 0.1-0.4 rules (since 0.0 is lawless despite any sovreignity). In a similar vein to how NPC vessels show up to attack people who are <-5 to a particular faction,, it'd be nice if police ships (belonging to the sovreign(sp?) faction) showed up after 5-10 minutes when people attack anyone with an aggression countdown at a stargate. Not meaning to rubbish the tactics employed by low sec pirates, but every man and his dog can tank sentries these days. Heck, my non-faction T1 named raven can tank gallente sentries, customs official BS, crusiers, frigs and some military in a 0.8 sec system for over a minute. PvP seems to intrude on PvE players a lot, so why not have PvE intrude on PvP activities just a little, and the response ships could drop semi-interesting loot even, but it'd dice things up a bit, and stop perma-camping pirate groups by having to switch gates frequently if they couldn't handle the sentries and the police ships. I think it'd be pretty fun. Open to griefing by targetting players, scramming them till the cops show and leaving so the cops pop the player? Maybe, but it's low-security, read as unstable, anarchaic. I know if i were a cop in a semi-lawless area and came across people in a rabble, i'd treat everyone as a suspect.
Neal Cassady Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Carnedo mostly what I am suggesting is that pirating needs to be slowed down and not as easy as it is now. why do people always think being a pirate is easy? try it for a few weeks and maybe you will have a better perspective. pirating in eve (and making money at it) is the most challenging aspect of any video game i have ever tried my hand at. people who claim it isn't hard almost invariably have never tried it themselves. also how is eve suffering with 30,000 plus commonly online on weekends? plenty of people = plenty of fun. when i found eve i found exactly what i was looking for in a mmorpg, a tactical, teamwork-based, pvp game. -neal my sig got primaried and one-volleyed
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Aindrias because CCP is still filling in the blanks of the backstory. Now that has been recently stated in interviews. I'm not sure where you're getting the "It's a Pew Pew Game" thing. /me looks at the same 50 tired unimaginative missions that have no bearing on the universe at large. /me looks at the abandoned major NPC storyline arcs that have just fizzled out from lack of Dev/GM interest. /me looks at the major news items being roughly 70% in-universe telling of alliance-driven events in game. Aside from providing a rough cloth to cut a storyline out of, the major events of New Eden seem to largely be centered on PVP activities in the game, with other stuff being tacked on as a rough afterthought on slow alliance-news days. Maybe white wolf's folks, factional warface, and a hoard of other 'Real Soon Now!' stuff will chance this over time, but they arent changing anything today. At this point too, just so I'm open about where my loyalties lie, I want to make clear that barely 30% of my skillpoints are combat skills, and I've never aggro'ed someone who wasnt already red; I've spent my entire life in Eve being on the recieving end of the criminal element, but I probbaly would stop playing if they were to dissappear.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Korad Konstentyn Originally by: RedFall I have a 1911 .45 too. I like to alternate Hyrdrashoks and FMJs in a magazine grin I was wondering how long it would take us right-to-arm-bears folks to hijack this thread once I mentioned that ;) " I propose a corrolary to Godwin's Law - "Any internet conversation that veers to the discussion of carry loads even briefly, shall henceforce become a firearms discussion, regardless of the original topic WTB: 4" Service automatic II + 5000 rnds of Guardian Tungsten .45 A good percentage of EVE player are european, and you rapresent americans as weapons crazy maniacs.
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Venkul Mul A good percentage of EVE player are european, and you rapresent americans as weapons crazy maniacs. I'm English, I moved to the US in my early 20's, I own a few guns. America has more gun-control lunatics than any other country, and not all Europeans are surrender-monkeys that can't take responsibility for their own safety, after having been brainwashed that they aren't responsible enough to bring lethal force to bear if necessary. Gun ownership isn't for 'weapons crazy lunatics', it's for people that don't believe that a government knows better than the individual.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Korad Konstentyn Originally by: Venkul Mul A good percentage of EVE player are european, and you rapresent americans as weapons crazy maniacs. I'm English, I moved to the US in my early 20's, I own a few guns. America has more gun-control lunatics than any other country, and not all Europeans are surrender-monkeys that can't take responsibility for their own safety, after having been brainwashed that they aren't responsible enough to bring lethal force to bear if necessary. Gun ownership isn't for 'weapons crazy lunatics', it's for people that don't believe that a government knows better than the individual. Also... nothing says "get the **** out of my house" quite like a .44 mag (just picked mine up yesterday ) Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ... ~Liz Kali
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:55:00 - [46] Some thought about the OP starting post: most of the problem isn't the percentages of pirates (probably roughly the same in all the life of EVE) but the local concentration. The pirates concentrate where they know to get some target (logically). The net effect is that the system bordering high security, in particular along high traffic routes or near high level agents likely to send the players in low sec are full of pirates 23/7. Some of those pirates are in bands large enough to kill easily the future capital ships for the level 5+ missions. Another point of interest for pirates are the system where high level agents hubs in low sec are located. So, while a target can fight or evade somewat a lone pirate or a small group, he has no chance against the 10 man blobs at the gate so common in some area. That add to the level of frustration the OP feel. Another point risen by the OP is the griefing of new players. People baiting them with offers of goods from a can (and getting to the point ow waiting in a cloaked cruiser to kill them), people sthealing veldspater from 2 day old players, and kiling them it they do a wrong move, and so on. Some of the replyes ask why I (or the OP) should be interested in the well begin of new players: two reasons 1) enlightened self interest - more players EVE get, more money CCP get = more developement for the game. A game that stop growing dies, and I like EVE to much to want it to dye; 2) I don't like people bullying others. And a 6 month players in a cruiser picking a fight with a 2 day player in a frigate is only a bully. Probably EVE could use a better window of protection for new players. As long as a player is still linked to the rookie channel and in his starting corporation he should get better protection from concord in the very high sec systems (0.8-1.0). BTW: mining in those high sec systems (0.8-1.0) is nerfed by the inability for players to anchor secure containers, so, in supposedly more secure systems, the risk of ore theft is higher, not lower.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.11 23:57:00 - [47] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 11/04/2007 23:54:13 Originally by: Korad Konstentyn Originally by: Venkul Mul A good percentage of EVE player are european, and you rapresent americans as weapons crazy maniacs. I'm English, I moved to the US in my early 20's, I own a few guns. America has more gun-control lunatics than any other country, and not all Europeans are surrender-monkeys that can't take responsibility for their own safety, after having been brainwashed that they aren't responsible enough to bring lethal force to bear if necessary. Gun ownership isn't for 'weapons crazy lunatics', it's for people that don't believe that a government knows better than the individual. Touting the quality of RL ammunition and the effects on a forum of a SPACE game seem normal to you?
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Also... nothing says "get the **** out of my house" quite like a .44 mag (just picked mine up yesterday ) grins, well, so far the self-determiners (gun owners) outnumber the naysayers 3 to 1. I guess the rest of you are all waiting for CONCORD to show up - perhaps the next hi-sec whine will be 'CONCORD should refund me for all items destroyed when they take more than 1 nanosecond to arrive' eh. In case anyone's at a loss as to why we're bringing up real-life firearms ownership up in an EVE conversation, its because the lesson EVE teaches is applicable IRL as well; ...the man who places responsibility for his safety entirely in the hands of another, is an idiot. A Police force can be realistically expected to only punish crime, not prevent it. Or, ask any multibillionare CEO why they feel the need to hire private bodyguards; shouldnt they just trust the police to protect them like the rest of us are supposed to do?
Korad Konstentyn Shadowdancers Digital Press	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Venkul Mul Touting the quality of RL ammunition and the effects on a forum of a SPACE game seem normal to you? I brought it up because the lessons and principles are the same. the OP's point: 'the police should prevent crimes from happening to me in EVE' my point: 'IRL, the police can only punish crime, rarely prevent it, with EVE, just as IRL, the duty falls to the individual to not be a victim in the first place'
Voodoo Mistross Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:26:00 - [50] If everyone who hated Pirates banded together to form a mega anti-pirate Corp and went into low sec to hunt them down, and continued to do so, therefore making it hard and nervous for the pirate constantly, you might find fewer peeps wanting to be a pirate and pirating less profitable, then the imbalance would be righted....and your Corp would be interstellar heroes
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:44:00 - [51] Originally by: Korad Konstentyn Originally by: Aindrias because CCP is still filling in the blanks of the backstory. Now that has been recently stated in interviews. I'm not sure where you're getting the "It's a Pew Pew Game" thing. /me looks at the same 50 tired unimaginative missions that have no bearing on the universe at large. /me looks at the abandoned major NPC storyline arcs that have just fizzled out from lack of Dev/GM interest. /me looks at the major news items being roughly 70% in-universe telling of alliance-driven events in game. Who says anything about crime "Going away?". Extremes YEs,.. Alliance Driven in 0.0... lawless PvP anywhere anytime =-) FACTIONAL WAREFARE.. it's coming.. it's prob going to be PvE.. hence the StoryLine Development comment I made. But it will prob also be PvP.. as in Caldari are allowed in Amarr space, but Minnies/Gals need extremely high rating.. or something STILL IN DEVELOPMENT.. which is the point.. See what you can do with Paintbrush?
Manus Stuprare Slug Storm Squadron	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:46:00 - [52] Originally by: Carnedo However pirates have always been a problem throughout history, but whenever they have become a large problem like they have in EVE hey been hunted down till the problem was small again. This is the answer, of course. If pirates had become a big enough inconvenience to non-pirates, they'd get hunted down. The main reason this hasn't happened is simply that most low-sec space really isn't worth fighting over, so most people you see there are either just passing through, or looking for a fight :) Oh, and it might help if you stop thinking of CONCORD as being police. They're more like a SWAT team - they're only concerned with incidents of potentially lethal violence. Anything lesser just doesn't show up on their radar. -------------- Poisoning the Chalice: Smartbombs as a Counter to Nos.
Rikher Go for the booty	Posted - 2007.04.12 00:56:00 - [53] Originally by: Voodoo Mistross If everyone who hated Pirates banded together to form a mega anti-pirate Corp and went into low sec to hunt them down, and continued to do so, therefore making it hard and nervous for the pirate constantly, you might find fewer peeps wanting to be a pirate and pirating less profitable, then the imbalance would be righted....and your Corp would be interstellar heroes After that they'd get bored and would start to gank people just because they can. Are you ready for some darkness? Are you ready for some fun?
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.12 01:46:00 - [54] It is a valid point to bring the in the gun argumant to this however there is a very keen point that everyone who has braght that up is missing: In RL people own guns Guns=possable death for theaf/lawbreaker they think twice If both parties have guns then its a toss up to skill and thought put in to the crime In eve: both players have guns one knows how to use his and the other dosn't it will take the the other player x amount of time to be able to compete with the player with the skills... skilled player wins the point is that EVE is an mmorpg and like all mmorpg having the gun dosn't mean you can defend your self and even in groups they caint. so the argument has a ring of truth till you add in the numbers
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.12 01:52:00 - [55] Edited by: Thread Winner on 12/04/2007 01:48:54 Originally by: Carnedo It is a valid point to bring the in the gun arguement to this however there is a very keen point that everyone who has brought that up is missing: In RL people own guns Guns=possible death for thief/lawbreaker they may think twice, if both parties have guns then its a toss up to skill, the element of surprise, reflexes, intimidation factor, mental stability, and the thought put in to the crime In eve: both players have guns one knows how to use his and the other doesn't it will take the the other player x amount of time to be able to compete with the player with the skills... skilled player wins the point is that EVE is an mmorpg and like all mmorpgs having the gun doesn't mean you can defend your self and even in groups they can't. so the argument has a ring of truth till you add in the numbers. Fixed your post F, see me after class Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.12 01:57:00 - [56] Edited by: Carnedo on 12/04/2007 01:54:17 I never was any good at spelling or grammer btw the dog ate todyas post can I have an extension?
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.12 02:06:00 - [57] Originally by: Carnedo Edited by: Carnedo on 12/04/2007 01:54:17 I never was any good at spelling or grammer btw the dog ate todyas post can I have an extension? Pics or no extension. Also Fire Fox 2 FTW! Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.12 02:41:00 - [58] Originally by: Nyabinghi Edited by: Nyabinghi on 12/04/2007 02:35:09 Hmmm...No comments about my previous post? I agree with Voodoo Mistross that if enough people banded together to deal with the pirate problem in certain systems we'd have a lot more law and order. I see barriers to this however as: 1) Most victims of piracy are nowhere near as combat skilled as the pirates nor do they fly as formidable ships. 2) Low sec doesn't afford the same luxuries to deal with your enemies as 0.0 does. 3) The pirates use of alts puts them at a distinct advantage. 4) Generally most carebears seem rather unwilling to pull themselves away from their day to day activities to band together to create law and order. Even corporations that operate in and around empire space that have trained combat pilots tend to be too busy to bother with low sec crime (with exceptions of course). What I question is why a miner, hauler, trader, etc. has to deal with pirates solely on their terms; in battle, where the pirate has the advantage. A pirate may gank a miner/idustrial playe every now and then, but the miner/industrial players gank us all when we buy their overpriced equipment. I have no sympathy.
Carnedo	Posted - 2007.04.12 02:54:00 - [59] Nyabinghi, I do like your points very well stated As far skill points and skill goes yes there is a deference between them..however even a skilled player could not deal with a player who is flying a decked out ship. skill alone only goes so far.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 02:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Korad Konstentyn Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Also... nothing says "get the **** out of my house" quite like a .44 mag (just picked mine up yesterday ) grins, well, so far the self-determiners (gun owners) outnumber the naysayers 3 to 1. I guess the rest of you are all waiting for CONCORD to show up - perhaps the next hi-sec whine will be 'CONCORD should refund me for all items destroyed when they take more than 1 nanosecond to arrive' eh. In case anyone's at a loss as to why we're bringing up real-life firearms ownership up in an EVE conversation, its because the lesson EVE teaches is applicable IRL as well; ...the man who places responsibility for his safety entirely in the hands of another, is an idiot. A Police force can be realistically expected to only punish crime, not prevent it. Or, ask any multibillionare CEO why they feel the need to hire private bodyguards; shouldnt they just trust the police to protect them like the rest of us are supposed to do? The police (A.K.A Concord) are simply govt (CCP) sponsored dial-a-prayer... wont help, but you might feel a little better Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ... ~Liz Kali

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