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New Profession: Anti-Pirate?

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Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 18:47:00 - [1] Please note, this is not a rant against those in the player base that choose piracy as their profession. EvE would be a very boring place without the fear their flashing red ships strike in me when I'm running through low-sec, or the heart pounding decision of whether to warp away or run back to the gate when I'm surrounded by Privateers in high security space. I was just thinking of a viable way for people who want to fight piracy to do so in a fashion that allows for better organization and support. The problem as I see it is twofold. There's no good way for a player to tell if you're an anti-pirate, and there's no good way for a player who wants to be an anti-pirate to take action against a pirate committing an illegal act. For example, let's say I'm sitting on a low-sec gate with the intention of keeping it clear of pirates. Another player soon after warps to the gate and takes up a camping position on the gate as well. He's got a positive security status and doesn't fire on me. Is he a pirate? Anti-pirate? Who knows. Now Johnny Wishbone jumps through the gate in his hauler. The first thing he sees in his overview is two ships sitting on the gate. Friends or foes? Again, there's no good way for him to know. Now the other guy camping the gate opens up on the hauler. He gets a criminal flag, and the gate guns fire on him. As I understand it, if I now lock him and shoot, I'll get a criminal flag against him, and the gate guns can fire on me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'll take a sec hit to boot. The flagging, and firing on someone who has a criminal flag on them in low-sec, but not to you personally, is a gray area for me, so feel free to clear this up for me if I'm mistaken. The point is, there's no good way for that hauler to know that there's someone on the gate that's looking out for them, and depending on the flagging as I mentioned above, no good way for me to act against the pirate without getting flagged myself and getting hit with sentry gun fire and a sec hit. My proposal, probably suggested in some form or another in the past, would be a way to officially register as an anti-pirate. The idea would be something similar to creating a war dec. I'd fly to a base and plunk down some fee to register. There would be a 24 hour period before my anti-pirate status took affect. Similarly, if I wanted to unregister, it would take another 24 hours for that to happen. One I've been declared as an anti-pirate, I would appear in the overview to other players with a new icon that indicates my status with complete certainty; say, something like a blue box with a white circle in it. An anti-pirate CAN NOT activate an offensive module against any other player that does not have a criminal flag against them. Exceptions would be for NPC pirates (so the player could still rat in belts and mission), against a player who is attacking a war target, or any activity in 0.0 space since there's no law there. An anti-pirate may fire on a player who is criminally flagged without retribution from gate guns or taking a security hit. They cannot, however, pod anyone. Using my example above, let's say I've registered as an anti-pirate. The other player camping the gate with me can immediately see my intentions. He's safe from me as long as he commits no criminal act, regardless of his security status, since I can't activate any offensive mods on him. If he is indeed a pirate, he can call in backup to push me off the gate, or take his chances. Johnny Wishbone jumping though in his hauler immediately sees there's a friendly on the gate. He knows that there's at least one player there that can't fire on him, and will quite possibly help defend him if the other player is a pirate an attacks. If the other player does attack the hauler, I can now perform my duty as an anti-pirate by taking him on, without fear of gate gun fire or a security standing hit. (continued in next post)
Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 18:48:00 - [2] This creates a whole new profession for eve denizens that desire it. It allows those that wish to role play the "good guy" access to PvP, people that have been reluctant in the past simply because there wasn't a good mechanism that clearly separated them from the pirates. It allows "carebears" wanting to enter low security space an easier way to spot friends from foes. It gives some real teeth to players who want to anti-pirate in low-sec, but prevents those same players from abuse by only allowing offensive action against those who have committed criminal acts. Now, this new profession could be for both high-sec and low-sec. That said, since CONCORD patrols high-sec, it may make more sense for registered anti-pirate to only be able to operate in low-sec. In any event, a system like this would be very appealing to me. I love the fact that there's pirates in this game. That if I choose to go into low security space, I'm taking a chance. But from a role playing perspective, I want to be a white hat, not a black hat. I don't want to attack innocents. This just seemed like a good way to form an official posse that can help fight piracy in low-sec, perhaps making low-sec more desirable to other players, but without nerfing the pirates into oblivion, or involving CONCORD. A sort of CONCORD sanctioned, player runned police force. So that's it. Feel free to pick it apart. Find its strength and weaknesses. All constructive feedback is welcome, and I'll don my flame retardant suit now. (grin)
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.04.12 18:54:00 - [3] A looong time ago I suggested that Bounty Hunter be a trainable skill and that after certain requirements are met you could get a license from CONCORD. As far as what you suggested I think first you need to look at it from the piwate side and see how it can be exploited. Once you've patched up any holes your on your way to a feasible and executable idea. Now whether anyone at CCP will actually notice it is a whole other ball game. ***
Antares Herric APEX Unlimited	Posted - 2007.04.12 19:33:00 - [4] I strongly support this idea, even if it does need some refining. Some suggestions I would like to add is to have different licenses for the different Empires for their respective LowSec systems and a single CONCORD license to patrol and 0.0. The CONCORD one is similar to the one the OP suggested: letting you attack outlaws and criminally flagged pilots in 0.0 as long as you have high enough security status. The Empire ones has a minimum standing requirement with the Empire's government and/or armed forces to purchase as well as the security standing, but they would allow you to patrol in their respective LowSec systems and maybe even HighSec if possible (most likely this would just give you killrights on criminally flagged thieves, allowing you to protect miners outside your corp from ore thieves). It shouldn't stop licensed lawmen from firing on other ships illegally, as this would be directly prevented the player to play as he/she wants, but it would cause the immediate invalidation of the license. The way to do this is by having "points" in a license. You would get points by doing less than lawful things (stealing from another player, podding a criminal in LowSec, unprovoked attacks overall), and if you take on too many points you lose your license and take a massive security status and Empire standing hit due to the breach of trust between you and the Empire/CONCORD(maybe even making you immediately an outlaw). These are just ideas, and they aren't fleshed out well, but nevertheless I would like to see these licenses implemented one way or another. It would be nice to be able to uphold the law in Empire in ways other than ratting and missions. Entire Empire corporations could require their members to be licensed in their respective Empire, and if a pirate blob forms a posse could be quickly formed by licensed players that know they can trust each other to fight off the pirates.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.04.12 19:40:00 - [5] if someone gets a criminal flag at a gate or is a criminal you can shoot with out getting a criminal flag at that person. You will however be aggressors to the criminal who can then shoot back without getting extended criminal aggro. Learn your empire rules first then come back and try again. The reason anti-pirates dont work is because most "pirates" dont have the guts to be -5 or lower. So the anti pirate is forced to kill people in the -.1 to -4.9 range. Thus dropping their own sec status. The real issue is "high sec pirates" the ones who understand the aggro rules and dont want to give away any advantage. They want to be high sec so you cant shoot them anywhere they go, but they can shoot you any time they want. Updated Item Database thanks to Dal Rath
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.12 19:41:00 - [6] Hello wall of text.
Fujiko MaXjolt	Posted - 2007.04.12 19:51:00 - [7] In conjunction with this, maybe add a Concord bounty on people with negative sec-rating ? Give some benefit to people for taking out pirates beyond the "satisfaction" of taking away his ship ? Maybe 1 mil bounty per full point of negative status, ie. -4.6 gives a bounty of 4.6 mil. Or does that move things too much into "carebear-land of milk AND honey" ?
Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 19:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Ryas Nia if someone gets a criminal flag at a gate or is a criminal you can shoot with out getting a criminal flag at that person. You will however be aggressors to the criminal who can then shoot back without getting extended criminal aggro. Yes, this is the bit I was hazy on, so thank you for clearing that up. Still, I think the suggestion has plenty of merit. It gives a warm fuzzy to players jumping into low-sec, seeing obvious friendlies on the gate, and perhaps encouraging more people into low security. It also makes it easy for like-minded player who are anti-pirate to gang up to defend a low-sec system. But the balance is that any pirate can jump right into the anti-pirate gang, and as long as he hasn't commited a criminal act, can't be fired on, regardless of his security status. He can gather intel on the group, players, ship types, etc., and call in his own gang to run the anti-pirates off. Also note, I'm using the term "pirate" in as much of a role play fashion as I can. Not trying to denigrate anyone here. Originally by: RedFall Hello wall of text. Yes, it was considerably verbose, but I wanted to get the point across as best I could.
Amphetaminer Grumpy Old Men	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:02:00 - [9] Edited by: Amphetaminer on 12/04/2007 19:58:45 should just make it when you are registerd as anti-pirate you can shoot people with negative standings without any reprocussions... Now i geuss lots of people would dissagree with this but hey its a PVP game isnt it.. Criminals should be shot. If you take that path then deal with it. Shouldnt be as easy as it is now to pirate without to many problems. Imo when your a pirate you should also have it hard. In defence of the pirates tho.. it should be made more profitable for them. Maybe a money bounty on kills or something
Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Amphetaminer Edited by: Amphetaminer on 12/04/2007 19:58:45 should just make it when you are registerd as anti-pirate you can shoot people with negative standings without any reprocussions... Now i geuss lots of people would dissagree with this but hey its a PVP game isnt it.. Criminals should be shot. If you take that path then deal with it. Shouldnt be as easy as it is now to pirate without to many problems. Imo when your a pirate you should also have it hard. In defence of the pirates tho.. it should be made more profitable for them. Maybe a money bounty on kills or something Not sure about this. It would make it pretty difficult for someone with a low security status to "reform" their ways, especially if they were heading to hi-sec to run missions and such in order to improve their status, as they'd be getting shot at all the time.
Morn Judith Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:15:00 - [11] I strongly support this idea. At this point in time, the only way you can even think that someone might be anti-pirate is by sec rating and them having "Anti-Pirate" in their bio. Both of those hold as much urine as my underwear. This idea would give people the actual ability to discern when someone is not hostile. And corps can actually say they are anti-pirate and actually do soemthing about it. Sure the idea needs refining. One thing I'd suggest is make sure that anti-pirates can attack anyone with a negative sec rating. Also, let pirates attack anti-pirates as well at will. Maybe this would be a good way to implenent a "Distress Call" It could be a module that you fit on your ship and only use in low-sec. You would activate it if under attack, and any anti-pirates as well as pirates in the system would recieve a notice that you are under attack. Both of them would flock to you, and a battle would ensue!
Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Morn Judith Maybe this would be a good way to implenent a "Distress Call" It could be a module that you fit on your ship and only use in low-sec. You would activate it if under attack, and any anti-pirates as well as pirates in the system would recieve a notice that you are under attack. Both of them would flock to you, and a battle would ensue! Heh, now that's an interesting idea. I'm not sure if I'd make it a module though. Maybe just a button on the interface that allows you to send out a distress signal. Of course, the fun part is that a pirate could use it just as easily, baiting the anti-pirate force into a trap. I could see this getting abused though, as distress signal "spam" could cause a lot of confusion.
Morn Judith Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Argus Greymoore Originally by: Morn Judith Maybe this would be a good way to implenent a "Distress Call" It could be a module that you fit on your ship and only use in low-sec. You would activate it if under attack, and any anti-pirates as well as pirates in the system would recieve a notice that you are under attack. Both of them would flock to you, and a battle would ensue! Heh, now that's an interesting idea. I'm not sure if I'd make it a module though. Maybe just a button on the interface that allows you to send out a distress signal. Of course, the fun part is that a pirate could use it just as easily, baiting the anti-pirate force into a trap. I could see this getting abused though, as distress signal "spam" could cause a lot of confusion. Yeah, I agree on the spam. That's why I thought to make it a module, maybe requiring fuel and only being able to activate it once per day or something of the sort. It's be hard to develop a way to discourage people from using it excessively.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:49:00 - [14] great idea
BadJoe Minmatar Bad Cop Security	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:12:00 - [15] This is a superb idea... have been thinking about this for a long time. Go for it devs
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:22:00 - [16] It could certainly tie in with Factional warfare quite easily. Very interesting.
Valrandir Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Argus Greymoore Now the other guy camping the gate opens up on the hauler. He gets a criminal flag, and the gate guns fire on him. As I understand it, if I now lock him and shoot, I'll get a criminal flag against him, and the gate guns can fire on me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'll take a sec hit to boot. You are wrong In the above axample you can engage the blinking red ship shooting the hauler, without becoming blinking red yourself and without taking a security status. The sentry guns will leave you alone and help you kill the pirate. However any good pirate would not sit on the gate then engage a random hauler while another unknown BS is also waiting there. -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware
Argus Greymoore Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.13 14:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Valrandir Originally by: Argus Greymoore Now the other guy camping the gate opens up on the hauler. He gets a criminal flag, and the gate guns fire on him. As I understand it, if I now lock him and shoot, I'll get a criminal flag against him, and the gate guns can fire on me, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'll take a sec hit to boot. You are wrong In the above axample you can engage the blinking red ship shooting the hauler, without becoming blinking red yourself and without taking a security status. The sentry guns will leave you alone and help you kill the pirate. However any good pirate would not sit on the gate then engage a random hauler while another unknown BS is also waiting there. Thanks again for the clerification on this. And yes, I agree no pirate would sit on the gate waiting to destroy something like a hauler while an unknown was also hanging around the gate. I just used the senario in my original post as a simple example.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.13 14:27:00 - [19] One very easy way to kick start anti-piracy as a common profession is to get the same sec status boost when you kill a ship belonging to an outlaw as when you kill an NPC rat of the same size. Possibly adjust it so a -10 outlaw is worth as much as a true sec -1.0 rat and a -5.0 outlaw will be equivalent to a true sec 0.0 rat. We're sorry, something happened.
Xi Xing Gallente Paxton Industries	Posted - 2007.04.13 14:36:00 - [20] I love both ideas in this topic... the licenced/permitted 'bounty hunter' who can attack people with negative standings with little or no standing loss (or standing GAIN?) Perhaps you would like 4 skills... Amarrian/Gallente/Minmatar/Caldari Bounty Hunting. Each one only gives you permission to operate in that race's soverign space. Level 1 and 2 you still get a security hit, but smaller... level 3 you get 0 sec hit... levels 4 and 5 you gain sec status (after all, you are a professional at catching criminals) I would love to grow into a profession like this. I just want to be Boba Fett, I guess..... The other idea about the system-wide distress beacon is also excellent but really open to abuse. Perhaps it only becomes 'pressable' when you are in structure? No, because by then it is too late. When you are targeted? Pirates would just target each other. It could cost money to press (like those Breitling watches that call helicopters to you) but I get the feeling money isn't usually a problem for a lot of people... Don't know. There would definitely have to be something to stop a gang of pirates setting off a distress beacon and waiting like spiders for flies to come rushing in... :D
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.04.13 18:53:00 - [21] I suggested a distress beacon about a year ago but the idea didn't prove to be sound. 1st of course is the possibility that it will be used as a trap and secondly there is a very slim chance that whoever is being preyed upon will survive long enough to be rescued as most battles last about a minute. On another note if bounty hunting or policing became a viable profession then individuals, corps, even alliances could pay regular fees to them to keep an area safe and secure. Consider it like private security or as taxation for the ongoing operations of a police force. ***
Lynae Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.13 19:55:00 - [22] Great Idea. You should enforce limitations on ganging up: Anti-Pirates and Pirates may not join the same gang / fleet. Also the skill based Bounty Hunter profession sounds neat. :)
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.04.14 06:46:00 - [23] /dreams Combine this idea with Variable sec rating for high and low-sec space. The more people who get killed, the lower the sec rating of a system. Jita would drop like a rock, and would encourage spreading out of population. Maybe one day we'll even get to the stage where CONCORD was largely replaced by a player police force, where players can join CONCORD. Oh, and make only CONCORD members be able to run CONCORD missions, if any get implemented, to prevent sec-farming. And missions would all be kill-player-pirate within 1 month or something. Fits nicely with faction warfare. ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
MissileRus	Posted - 2007.04.14 07:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Mashie Saldana One very easy way to kick start anti-piracy as a common profession is to get the same sec status boost when you kill a ship belonging to an outlaw as when you kill an NPC rat of the same size. Possibly adjust it so a -10 outlaw is worth as much as a true sec -1.0 rat and a -5.0 outlaw will be equivalent to a true sec 0.0 rat. that would help, but it would be exploited. pirates killing eatchother to bump up sec rating fast etc. --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
50freefly Caldari Purify Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.04.14 11:35:00 - [25] Amazes me how few people actually read the thread... What this is suggesting hurts antipirates BADLY, and, being one, I don't want it. Originally by: Eight Ace For reasons that have been lost in the mists of time all caldari ships are designed by two people. One does the left hand side and the other does the right. And they never meet.
Jex Jast Go for the booty	Posted - 2007.04.14 11:53:00 - [26] Originally by: 50freefly Amazes me how few people actually read the thread... What this is suggesting hurts antipirates BADLY, and, being one, I don't want it. QFT. Let them continue to shoot -5 and below whether they've got a flag or not. It's like the polic, if they catch a murderer an hour after the crime they can still get him...there's no 15 minute timer on being ebil Oh and hi 50. Thanks for the dance. -----
SiJira	Posted - 2007.04.14 17:27:00 - [27] Simple. Make the distress call a simple skiller in the trade or industry section (maybe if there be a separate bounty section make it there) and make it cost to use and some info is sent out of it like what kind of damage is being done. skills go up from system to 2 systems out to 3 then to 4 and at final skill it stays at 4 but also alerts everyone the name (and corp) of they guy attacking them.
Spacian	Posted - 2007.04.14 17:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Argus Greymoore There's no good way for a player to tell if you're an anti-pirate Reputation, really. Better than any mechanic CCP could possibly implement.
Rysith	Posted - 2007.04.14 18:20:00 - [29] To expand on this idea somewhat: What about the idea of the various empires and CONCORD issuing Letters of Marque? You pay them a fee (say 5M) and can attack their enemies (negative status or criminal flagged) in their space (low sec and high sec) without intervention or a status hit. If you attack someone who isn't an enemy in their space, you lose the letter and there is some kind of countdown (a week?) before you can get a new one. The letter of marque could easily be displayed on the character sheet, so a hauler jumping through could easily see that there was someone with a letter of marque sitting on the gate. This would also make life more dangerous for negative sec status people in high-sec, as anyone with a letter of marque from CONCORD could engage them at will. It seems like it could greatly enhance both factional warfare and the anti-pirate career.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.14 18:42:00 - [30] Originally by: MissileRus Originally by: Mashie Saldana One very easy way to kick start anti-piracy as a common profession is to get the same sec status boost when you kill a ship belonging to an outlaw as when you kill an NPC rat of the same size. Possibly adjust it so a -10 outlaw is worth as much as a true sec -1.0 rat and a -5.0 outlaw will be equivalent to a true sec 0.0 rat. that would help, but it would be exploited. pirates killing eatchother to bump up sec rating fast etc. The exploiters will need a lot of isk as they have to buy plenty of battleships to pop. The sec change would be based on a combination of sec status and ship value. So blowing up 1000 shuttles belonging to an outlaw would give you nothing except empty guns. We're sorry, something happened.

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