The reson Artillery is so heavily used right now is that the DRF (Big Maelstrom Users) are in civil war. Those are not 100000 Kills but 100000 Maelstroms on kill Mails. Each kill that they get has 50+ Maels on it. Smaller Gang Ships that kill in small numbers don't appear because there are only 2-3 on each mail.

As for your fix do you really think Arty is the reason Beams and Rails see little fleet action. You think Selectable Dmg Types are the reason they are not used. It is Scorch... EM Dealing Scorch that hits to fleet range Scorch. It is a higher tracking DPS Pump that can hit as far as it needs to for great dmg and melt face at closer range. That Alpha you want to get rid of is what keeps Artillery in the game, not what keeps beams and rails out.

Finally it is not Artillery that is keeping Gallente out of large fleets and incidentally the Top 20. Abbadons have close range weapons that hit to fleet ranges and resists bonuses that help Logi Rep them. Maels have there Alpha and the High Resists of 4 Active Hardeners with Lows full of Gank and Range. What does Gallente have, Mega short on CPU as it is for Rails, the Hyperion has 6 Lows to manage Gank and Tank and the Domi is a sitting duck with Sentries and Heavies are too slow for fleets. Gallente dos not have a viable Fleet Battleship, buffing Scorch and Nerfing Artillery is not going to help that.

At most your suggestion will make the Rokh viable the Maelstrom useless and the Abbadon king of Fleet Warfare.

...so you can understand CORRECTLY how the races turrets are SUPPOSED to be defined ...

Ahh ok its just the biggest nullsec coaltion uses these ships as there mainstay and thats messing up the numbers ... ya mmhmm and what about the 15 other minmatar ships in the top 20?

WRONG AGAIN

even with changes arties will still be the most used and will be far from useless ... HOW WOULD THEY BE USELESS? they still got highest alpha in the game and same DPS ....

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Artillery is the sniper fleet weapon of choice by far they got TWICE the kills of the Amarr lasers this month alone not to mention this whole year. to even try to justify them as being almost underpowered is ridiculously ignorant. LOOK AT THE STATS

Ahh ok its just the biggest nullsec coaltion uses these ships as there mainstay and thats messing up the numbers ... ya mmhmm and what about the 15 other minmatar ships in the top 20?

WRONG AGAIN

even with changes arties will still be the most used and will be far from useless ... HOW WOULD THEY BE USELESS? they still got highest alpha in the game and same DPS ....

WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Artillery is the sniper fleet weapon of choice by far they got TWICE the kills of the Amarr lasers this month alone not to mention this whole year. to even try to justify them as being almost underpowered is ridiculously ignorant. LOOK AT THE STATS

Wow slow much...

Take a close look at that list.

9 Scimitar 25815
10 Sabre 21159
12 Huginn 18015
16 Rapier 15059

These Ships presense on the list are because they SUPPORT both Maelstroms, Hurricanes, Tempest and Drake gangs not because they are Minmatar.

As for the Vega, Loki and Cynabal they are up there because they are part of the few Cruisers that work. Outside the EWAR role Speed, Kiting and Sig are what keep Cruisers in the game as is why the Tengu and Loki are up there. Every other Cruiser has it's role swiped by the Nanocane and Nano Drake. The Thrasher is up there because of design flaws in the other Destroyers, 1 Low Cormie, 1 Mid Coecer, no web Caty.

The rest can be explained by Shield Tankings superiority over Armor in small gangs.


Not enough Alpha to make an Alpha Fleet out of so people will revert to high tracking Scorch.

Nerfing Arty will not bring Beams and Rails from the waste bin.

They are not used as Sniper Weapons first of all. They are used in the same ranges as Scorch. Of Course they are more used this then Lasers because the power blocks that use them are in a huge War. As I said nerfing them won't bring back rails and beams because Scorch is better. Last month the Abbadon and Armageddon were ahead of the Meal and Tempest.

stuff]

Sounds to me like the problem lies in the individual ships, rather than their weapon systems.

Abaddons and maelstroms have been the mainstay for a while now, with rohks joining in only recently (but i hear to good effect). Gallente just lacks a good fleet ship, which is why hybrids are still under-represented.

No. Arty sucks at ranges over 150km. Fix on grid probing. Arty dominance will diminish.

Nobody wants this.

Came here expecting turret balancing discussion but got stealth nerf minmatar long range guns,short range guns,range,tracking,targeting range,targeting speed,sig rad,impulse speed,ab/mwd speed,agility,ammo types,nerf base dps,nerf all dps, nerf droines on mini ships,cpu,power grid,amount of guns and slots in general type of thread and left...

disappointed .

The reson Artillery is so heavily used right now is that the DRF (Big Maelstrom Users) are in civil war. Those are not 100000 Kills but 100000 Maelstroms on kill Mails.

Probably that's related to the fact that it's impossible to achieve balance without nerfing minmatar or buffing everything else.

Nobody wants this.

We could just make all ships and turrets exactly the same and just have different graphics for them. For example an AC Hurricane would be exactly the same as a HAM Drake except look different... Would that make all the people crying for "balance" happy? How about just accept the fact that different ships will have different uses, tanks, range and DPS. Yes the CNR and Ferox aren't on the top of ships used for PVP but so what? Get yourself the correct ship for the job and quit crying about not being able to do it with some other ship. If all ships were "balanced" Eve would suck!

People aren't crying for equality. They're crying for their SP to not be completely wasted. There are no fleets out there that want a Gallente Battleship. Really, Gallente and Caldari battlehips are only worth mentioning for their ability to do missions well in one way or another. That's kind of silly in a PvP oriented game.

I have both Gallente and Caldari Battlehip 5 and yes they might not be the best for PVP... I'll be the first to say Caldari Battlehips suck at general purpose PVP but I can't seem to remember anyone forcing me to train it. If you're a PVP oriented pilot and you're going to cry about wasted SP in Caldari Battlehip well you only have yourself to blame. For me it wasn't a waste since I run missions.

The Fix ....


decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before

Maths, you're failing at it.

Probably that's related to the fact that it's impossible to achieve balance without nerfing minmatar or buffing everything else.

Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but twice as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP

Actually, because arties have such huge numbers both damage and activation time, gyrostabs have the hopefully intended effect(larger numbers =more with %'s). With your numbers gyrostabs effect them exactly half as much.

If you cannot see something as simple is that, why should anybody even give your ideas the light of day?

Care to elaborate how i am failing at maths ohh great professor Masamune?? if you hit half as hard but half again as fast it would still be the same overall dps. DERP.

ahh ok so they would be recieving the same benefit as the dmg mods for hybrids do ... seems fair to me.

in your own words if you cannot see that why should anyone listen to YOU? DERPITY DOOOOOO

and besides i could care less what some forum trolls think ... my message only needs to get across to 1 party .. CCP .. and the stats do not lie ... Winmatar nerfs INCOMING

Actually, because arties have such huge numbers both damage and activation time, gyrostabs have the hopefully intended effect(larger numbers =more with %'s). With your numbers gyrostabs effect them exactly half as much.

If you cannot see something as simple is that, why should anybody even give your ideas the light of day?

To me this sounds like people complaining because they spent months training something they didn't research and now they're not happy. If you want to cry about how you spent all this time training Caldari and now you feel left out of PVP I don't feel sorry for you. Those are the same people who refuse to do the tutorials but complain about they don't know how to undock their ship. Eve isn't a game for people who don't want to or are incapable of thinking. If doing a little research before you set out on months or even years of training is a bit too challenging they're many console games that only require you to push buttons rapidly without causing any mental strain.

Stuff

Stuff

This man speaks with wisdom and truth!

The Fix ....


decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before but lose the huge alpha strike advantage. making hybrid and laser long range turret systems more appealing then they are now.(arties probably still be better or at worst equal)

Give hybrids and lasers selectable damage type ammo like projectiles .... there is no reason not to do this ... it would bring balance as everyone could use whatever type ammo they wanted.

Gallente ships have to be the fastest and speed increased on caldari turret boats ... no other solution for blasters ... Minmatar can keep the best agility. but gallente(and caldari hybrid boats) need to be the fastest because of how blasters work. otherwise the whole system fails like it is now.

Remove all penalties from all t2 ammo for everyone .... these penalties are stupid and cause people to not use it in favour of faction ammo more often then not .... the best ammo needs to be the best ammo period.

these 4 simple fixes would bring the game into balance IMO

Suggestions and feedback are welcome DISCUSS

No - whilst there is dire need for balancing, equalizing all turrets will take away flavour and render them undistinguishable from each other.

I do. However, regardless of how hard Minmatar needs to be nerfed (and they need really, really hard nerfing), don't regard my post as an agreement of your terrible op. You're a clueless idiot scrub.

well 1 idiot scrub calling another person an idiot scrub doesnt hold much weight lol

What turrets need is a mitigation factor similar to the Damage Reduction Factor / Damage Reduction Sensitivity pair we have in missiles.

We need some mechanism that allows us to apply a non-linear effectiveness curve on, say, tracking to make some turrets immensely better at tracking targets of the right size without actually becoming any better at tracking smaller (or, for extra fun, larger) targets as a result of that tracking change.

This would allow for a different avenue of differentiation and effectiveness scaling which opens up for a lot more role separation between different turret types. Right now, all we really have to play with is more/less DPS vs. Alpha; more/less Optimal vs. Falloff. Tracking is certainly an on-the-paper differentiator, but in order for larger turrets not to be too effective against small targets, that differentiator has to be left small, to the point where you gain far better tracking benefits by using longer range. Something more is needed to let that attribute stand out more without causing unwanted side-effects.

I don't think anybody complained about their race sucking at PvP. It's just bad design in a PvP game.

Arty is used for alpha, that's it. Its DPS sucks compaired to everything, and it is the shortest range "sniping" weapon. If you kill its alpha, you might as well delete it from the database.

Also, stop being dense. If every person that has replied to this thread is telling you you're wrong, you're probably wrong.

You good boy, are a complete ignorant.

Let me put it in something you can understand, I mean I hope, but I already believe it's some lost hope.

8x1400 T2 arty, with faction ammo puts 14K+ shots, I use no implants/boosters, and by shots I mean the number showing in you screen, hope you understand now.

A shield Navy Megathron, the best Megathron other than Vindi, full faction MFS's/TE's with implants whenever I can put a 4.5K shot on something with about 5sec Rof (+/-) I'm happy with.

Let me make it simple, train your skills after lvl1 spec arty and rails up to at least 4, support to 5 then come back here and say the same crap.

Hi,

I think this post was total crap from start, but I post in it anyway to rant about how stupid posts spout so often and stay so long on top of the forums.

The Fix ....


decrease artillery Alpha by 50% and increase artillery ROF by 50% ... they will do the same dps as before but lose the huge alpha strike advantage. making hybrid and laser long range turret systems more appealing then they are now.(arties probably still be better or at worst equal)

Give hybrids and lasers selectable damage type ammo like projectiles .... there is no reason not to do this ... it would bring balance as everyone could use whatever type ammo they wanted.

Gallente ships have to be the fastest and speed increased on caldari turret boats ... no other solution for blasters ... Minmatar can keep the best agility. but gallente(and caldari hybrid boats) need to be the fastest because of how blasters work. otherwise the whole system fails like it is now.

Remove all penalties from all t2 ammo for everyone .... these penalties are stupid and cause people to not use it in favor of faction ammo more often then not .... the best ammo needs to be the best ammo period.

these 4 simple fixes would bring the game into balance IMO

Suggestions and feedback are welcome DISCUSS

Ignoring all the whiny little 12yo "Nerf X because I use Y and X hurt me, Z is fine because they may be better but they left me alone." comments, could I make a simple suggestion.

The fundamental issue with minmatar is that minmatar ships can field slightly larger turrets before diminishing their tanks.

Why don't we just reduce the fitting requirements of hybrids so that they too can fit larger turrets? Mostly in the CPU req.
I'm damned sure that would solve any problems.





P.s.
Nerfing is for selfish unimaginative little sods who are only interested in their own little BOX. Are you only happy if you dominate others, why can't you learn to play with your own skill and stop blaming the tools you have. This game is somewhat balanced and will reward those who play better, perhaps the main issue is that initially, to be a successful minmatar pilot, you had to be well above the norm in player skill. So when minmatar got a buff, guess what, those above average players start to own you. Not because their ships are better, but because before, their ships were worse and they still managed to kill people regularly.

Guess what? I'll use 220mms kite fit with lots of unused grid, and you fit neutrons. How about it? Hey, bigger turrets.
Turrets: if they're Winmatar, they win.

Try that same argument against heavy pulses

The only matari ship that really needs a nerf is the cane, but then that's a tier 2 BC problem, not a minmatar problem. Kick the cane and the drake in the teeth, and call it a day.

Oh please! There is far more win to Winmatar than the cane, unlike with drake and Caldari.

Btw, it's not a tier 2 BC problem, it's a Winmatar and drake problem. Harby has no problem. Myrm has problems, but for itself, not for others.

^^Macha=Angel ship as in pirate faction ship with Falloff bonus.

Now you may continue to whine.

There really isn't, at least not from a balance perspective. The reason minmatar are so popular is the same reason that they will ALWAYS be the most popular: People like not dying more than they like winning.

If they ever did something like this they would have to compensate larger ships by giving them more high slots for more guns and what have you so they can fit smaller guns without sacrificing effectiveness against same sized ships.

It's also dumb that smaller targets can indefinitely out run larger guns.

Ergh or woot or whatever, I don't know maybe I'm still drunk but right here I read:

-that people don't like to die, therefore use the best tool to kill rather than die
-Minmatar are balanced
-Minmatar are popular because people don't like to die

I think I'm not drunk enough.

<3 Cambarus

The reason other games do it differently is because other games fall in the trap of GÇ£bigger is betterGÇ¥ logic GÇö EVE, fortunately, does not, and that will never change.

in eve we have "matar is better" logic

Ergh or woot or whatever, I don't know maybe I'm still drunk but right here I read:

-that people don't like to die, therefore use the best tool to kill rather than die
-Minmatar are balanced
-Minmatar are popular because people don't like to die

I think I'm not drunk enough.

<3 Cambarus

Again its more an issue if pulse lasers and ACs crowding out the long range turrets....


...and I'll tell you now, pulses are better weapons than ACs just ratter my crappy geddon with meta four guns does WAY more damage for better range then my meal with T2 ACs.

For all of your crying, Amarr are better hands down at fleet warfare, beucase once you get 400 people on a side alpha is no longer a boon, ROF actually lets you switch targets, and instant ammo swaps are better than 24 with artillery.

400 ppl in the same ship oh yeah everyday pvp ftw
why not just split it to two then so arties can alpha 2 at a time
i cant see how amarr is better in fleet warfare when they basically fit arties all the time , it just doesnt add up

Cambarus
not best at killing?
they can dictate when fight should happen that is the most important thing in pvp
paper dps doesnt make anything good at killing thats for sure

btw before unneeded projectile buffs they werent any less good at running away still wasnt the fotm race like now
so your idea about best runner is the most favoured is false

You are full of it.

Maelstroms can't run away from a wet fart ...and once you are fielding real numbers alpha only matters in lag, which requires 800 people in system.

Not to mention I'm not talking about EFT I'm talking bounty ticks when I have a Gheddon with BS III and and large energy 3 compared to a Mael with BS V and Large projectile spec IV

...actual real in game stuff.

From now on, whenever someone makes moronic assumptions based upon EFT numbers about ships that they obviously don't fly, I will kill someone with an artillery maelstrom.

Give hybrids and lasers selectable damage type ammo like projectiles .... there is no reason not to do this ... it would bring balance as everyone could use whatever type ammo they wanted.

I cant remember what spawns where aaa is I quess sansha or something, no wonder if an amarr bs kills them faster

WTB EXPLOSIVE LASES!!!!
Good work genius....

Artillery is the sniper fleet weapon

No. Minmatar are not the best at killing, in fact they tend to be the worst at it..

n00b detected