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The cost of progress

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Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:24:00 - [1] IÆd like to bring up a point regarding the very backbone of EVE-Online, the very essence that makes this game so much better than all the other games that weÆve experienced. This point has been overlooked for quite some time now, and the absence of certain things have been missed as the playerbase has grown over the past few years. As most would agree, the Community is the most important asset of EVE, and the players who reside within the EVE universe constitute what I think is one of the greatest differentiating factors that has kept EVE up and going (at such a great pace) through all these years. The forums have always been one of the largest meeting areas for the community, and most of the monumental player history that has made EVE uniquely different from all those third grade cookie-cutter MMOÆs with endless grinds and little player interaction beyond the doctrine of ôlets all play a singleplayer game together!ö, has been reflected onto the forums as it was being forged ingame with conflicts and events. This is where the legends of m0o were born as their rampages in Lonetrek and The Syndicate spawned hundreds of threads, this is where we watched and even participated in the passionate yet also amusing threads of the GNW, as Jade Constantine, armed with her Thesaurus, pitched the cause of her faction against those of her enemies for months at end. This is where we saw Ragnar put a bounty on the head of James Hawkins after he sold him one unit of trit for a 100 million isk. We laughed with Viceroy and his theatrical videos. We sat and read through the endless arguments of Digitalcommunist. This is where the tongue-in-cheek organization of the 23 and their opponents argued for days and nights over various subjects, such as how pvp should be, whether corp wars should be consensual, and if the highways should have been removed or not. We saw Jim Raynor camping threads about missiles and Caldari. We had Joshua Calvert, the self-proclaimed and almost universally approved superstar of the forums, who single handedly managed to acquire the posting record before Dark Shikari showed up. the list goes on and on. IÆm sure that CCP also benefited and still continues to benefit from the feedback provided from the community on these forums. The thing is, if you read up until now and find yourself not recognizing many of the names and events IÆve mentioned, the reason for this is also the reason for this post. The EVE community has grown, both in age and in size over the years, and I think that for most old-timers and those new players who have an interest for history, the deterioration of veteran posts on the forums and the disappearance of long-time members is both apparent and appalling, and has been as such for a long time. Thus I would like to ask both the playerbase and CCP to not forget about the forums and their immense yet sometimes subtle in perspective contribution to the game. The unwitting dismantling of this pillar of the community under the burden of outdated tenets has gone unrevised for a long time. Let us not allow it to turn these pages into the empty rabble-consortiums that other MMOÆs sport. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
jamesw Rubra Libertas Militia	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:27:00 - [2] Totally agree with you Ifni. The forums need their superstars back! -- Latest Vid: Domination!
HostageTaker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:29:00 - [3] Kinda sad that only a handful of people will know what you're talking about in your post Ifni. WTB - old times... Anyways, preach on! >>> EvE-Online Wallpapers <<<
Martinus Crimson U4-Q2V Liberation	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:34:00 - [4] Good post Ifni, allthough even i (as an "Old Timer") find it hard to pick out the good constructive discussions from the 90% trash that gets posted here. More often good discussion threads get derailed by useless flames and forum *****s. I think the times you are talking about, a bigger percentage of the people really had EVE in thier hearts, they saw it grow from the bugfest it was in the Beta to (IMO) one of the best MMO's in the industry with Devs i'd die for. Recently there have been a lot more players that play just to be entertained, and ofcourse thats thier right, they pay for it. Its those exact people that aren't contributing to constructive critisism cause they don't care, all they care about is playing the game in the way they themselves find most enjoyable, again, totally upto them as long as they pay for it. I would love to go back to the old days on the forums, but nowadays i tend to just keep up with the sickies and don't bother with the rest. ----------------- ^^ Now i got my own exotic dancers, thnx Chribba
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:37:00 - [5] The Transformers weren't anywhere near as good as you remember, Bigtrak was rubbish. ZX Spectrums were useless. Stringfellow Hawk wasn't cool. nostalgia is the burden of those without a future.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:38:00 - [6] /signed Help me help you .

Schani Kratnorr Federal Volunteers Office	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:40:00 - [7] Originally by: ry ry Stringfellow Hawk wasn't cool. LIES!! -- Support democracy! - Because it has to work
Admiral Pieg Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:40:00 - [8] Hear hear! before i started playing eve in the beginning of 2004, i had lurked the forums for several months and there was always some amusing forum drama going on. snip Please do not discuss warnings or bans on the forums - Jacques ______________ Pod from above.
Falhofnir Evolution	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:40:00 - [9] Agreed, bring the good old times back !
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:50:00 - [10] Totally agree, Ifni. The game's community is truly top knotch, especially when compared to any game out there. I've definitely noticed the absence of all of those you mentioned, and it's saddening. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.04.26 13:54:00 - [11] however, digging a trench between old-timers and new-timers has the opposite effect; of course, you prefer sticking to equals and of course we can't keep up with every reference. but new stories are being told, new protagonists appear (and vanish). denying them the right to take their place among the 'elite' would be a mistake aswell. for example, "pulling a cyvok" has become a known exression during the past year, ISS tried to pull off a 250bil IPO and failed, the galactic war is still going on and will undoubtedly bring forth a couple of names. every good game pulls more people than one alone can get to know. all i can advise is to stick to your favourite gang of known people and, most of all, accept the views of youngsters and/or strangers every once in a while, too.
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:01:00 - [12] There needs to be a cohesive and public policy towards what direction CCP wants this aspect of the community to develop in. This thread demands and deserves your support. ---- I solemnly vow never to check the date of a topic or post.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Raem Civrie There needs to be a cohesive and public policy towards what direction CCP wants this aspect of the community to develop in. To what end? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:09:00 - [14] Edited by: Raem Civrie on 26/04/2007 14:09:26 Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Raem Civrie There needs to be a cohesive and public policy towards what direction CCP wants this aspect of the community to develop in. To what end? Mostly so that both we and the Powers that Be might know what is acceptable, and when. There's alot of (necessary) grey area in the rules, so it might be a good idea to have guidelines above that to judge by. ---- I solemnly vow never to check the date of a topic or post.
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:40:00 - [15] The replies so far, whilst well thought out and considered, stray somewhat from the intended topic. These hallowed pages form a great part of the online but not ingame posturing and parlaying that is the EVE landscape. As time has progressed, the founding fathers, to coin a phrase, have been taken, for better or worse, from all of us. The names listed in my original post are known to an ever diminishing few, due to the fact that their hands are tied, and as a result, their dealings and thoughts are frozen statically on the pages of the past, and are inhibited from growing and being seen by us all. One of the founding tenets that the EVE community is based upon is that of discussion and the exchange of thoughts and ideas; why else would these very posts exist, except to convey my thoughts to you and vice versa. The differing degrees of elocution should not be a hinderance to the transmission and dissemination of ideas. It is upto the society in which we're all a part of to accept the burden of past misdeeds, and to grow and learn from it. Let the slate be wiped clean, and a return to the earlier levels of intruige and discourse be upon us. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
NTRabbit Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:05:00 - [16] I completely agree with ifni. The current forums are but a shadow of what they once were, populated by an endless parade of forgettable mains, who may as well be alts for all that they conjure, communicating with a procession of Counterstrike insult threads that only differ in the datestamp at the top, in the middle of a million pointless posts by a single blessed forum "presence" who is not even worth considering a poor substitute for those who came before him. ------
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:09:00 - [17] I'm sorry if this seems a bit harsh, and insults someone, but maybe what we need is a complaint section on the forums, leaving the general for the...umm... Err... Ships discussions? No wait... Ideas?!...no...damnit... Stuff?...yes i know my argument is flawed!
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:23:00 - [18] /signed. I feel alone --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Del ReyII snip Your choice of wording taints the discussion at hand, and implies something that I am deliberately trying to avoid. What I am hoping to achieve is an emphasis on progress, but not at the expense of all that has gone before. The mistakes of the past are not a cancer that has to be cast out, but rather part of a learning curve that has only been embraced by one half of the problem. With the continued growth of both EVE and the use of these pages, this subclass of EVE user will continue to grow, with no way to change or mend their once misguided ways. In the spirit of growth and learning, that is embodied by both EVE and CCP, coupled with a sense of disclosure that has recently been embraced by the powers, I am urging the direction of these pages be moved from the violent and insular society that raises its head, to a wiser, more learned populous that embraces the mistakes of the past and learns from them. Without these absent elders there will only be a single, current generation to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors, and so the cycle will begin afresh. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Ifni Originally by: Del ReyII snip Your choice of wording taints the discussion at hand, and implies something that I am deliberately trying to avoid. What I am hoping to achieve is an emphasis on progress, but not at the expense of all that has gone before. The mistakes of the past are not a cancer that has to be cast out, but rather part of a learning curve that has only been embraced by one half of the problem. With the continued growth of both EVE and the use of these pages, this subclass of EVE user will continue to grow, with no way to change or mend their once misguided ways. In the spirit of growth and learning, that is embodied by both EVE and CCP, coupled with a sense of disclosure that has recently been embraced by the powers, I am urging the direction of these pages be moved from the violent and insular society that raises its head, to a wiser, more learned populous that embraces the mistakes of the past and learns from them. Without these absent elders there will only be a single, current generation to repeat the mistakes of their predecessors, and so the cycle will begin afresh. Ah I understand now, tainting was unintentional. But how do you propose to ensure progress, and raise the bar of communication when the current generation is ignorant of the mistakes of past. Surely not by just asking? Or is that just a start?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.26 15:59:00 - [21] Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 15:57:17 i started in 2005 and don't remember the forums ever being particularly good. But then perhaps i'm too young to remember the true golden-period of Eve Online - Those first few years, hayclon days when nobody really knew anything about the game and everything was new and exciting. I should think discussing all the same tired topics for years on end has rather taken the shine off the forums for the Old School players, who've now resorted to endlessly telling new players how they'll never enjoy being repeatedly ganked by m0o and their Eve experience will be poorer for it. it hardly encourages new players to pitch in if you spend the whole time asking why they're not as good as their predecessors.
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Del ReyII Ah I understand now, tainting was unintentional. But how do you propose to ensure progress, and raise the bar of communication when the current generation is ignorant of the mistakes of past. Surely not by just asking? Or is that just a start? A new balance must be reached between both the judges and the judged. Unfortunately the status quo is in place and there is little recourse for those sent to what essentially equates to a wasteland. Those that have learnt from their past infractions have no voice to instigate change, and those in power care not to change what is seen as an existing system. Any rigid structure has a breaking point, and what I want to achieve is an alternate solution before we reach that breaking point. With the rise in subscribers the breaking point will come sooner rather than later. You can see the beginnings of this in the growth of other bastions of discourse such as Scrapheap Challenge. It is better to maintain control over this medium from a central location, where by security and a modicum of sensibility can be ensured. By casting out those that are disliked or deemed lawbreakers only encourages other, less agreeable entities to rise to prominence at unmetered locations. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:24:00 - [23] Umm...am i getting this original post correctly or...did you say something along the lines of: "As we live in the modern days, of modern times, don't forget the brave men and women of world war 2 who made it possible."
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Umm...am i getting this original post correctly or...did you say something along the lines of: "As we live in the modern days, of modern times, don't forget the brave men and women of world war 2 who made it possible." Yes this is Ifni going old testament on us forum style. Also Known As
Vactet Immortalis Silens	Posted - 2007.04.26 16:38:00 - [25] Durka..I cant bring myself to be nasty and flame, but its very tempting simply cause its a wonderful post. Oh well.. I fully agree Ifni. Personally i dont know many of the folks you are talking about as I have only been playing for 1 Year. But i understand the concept. snip Please do not discuss warnings and/or bans on the forums please - Jacques Sometimes the world needs to be kicked in the face to stop drooling on itself like an ignorant child. ::Im paid to talk, not to be civil. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.04.26 17:07:00 - [26] Great post Ifni (and some great replies), and while I yearn for the days of old, they will never return. I understand what you want to achieve, but I don't think with the current expansion rate of the player base what you aim for is possible. The 'golden' age is gone, and along with it has gone any sense of respect for others and the basic maturity which what you aim for would require. That lack of maturity and respect requires the rules that are in place (or at least some form of them), and the harsh reality is that the mods do what they do because they have to or this forum would be far worse than it already is. This is how the eve community has evolved, like it or not, it's here to stay. ---------------------- FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.04.26 19:18:00 - [27] Please do not discuss moderation, policy or warnings/bans on the forums please. Insteead, email the forum moderator team at [email protected] if you have any questions. Thank you! -Jacques' forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.04.26 19:43:00 - [28] I definitely recall the people Ifni is talking about. I remember flaming Space Invaders after attacking a corp mate who paid his ransom. Then came in Setec and his arguments against what he called "academic masterbation". I don't know why all those people left. Some just stopped posting, some were banned and some quit EvE. EvE was changing a lot in those days, and there were extended arguments about how the game was intended to be played. I won't kid myself and say smack talk did not exist back then, but now it has just been raised to a whole new level. But EvE is nevertheless losing its celeberties. On the bright side there are new people emerging everyday. Pottsey has become passive tank forum guru, DS's opinions on the market are always welcome, Seleene's battle reports make you feel like you were there (which is sometimes true in my case), and RP posts from UK and CVA literally bring EvE to life. Incidently, back in the day when I was running Botox Bandits, James Hawkins had returned to the game and I siezed the oppurtunity to kill him in 0-sht (or was it 0-SHTA...anyways we all called it Oh Sh*t in Teamspeak). I promptly sent an eve-mail to the CEO of TTI at the time (Mark something, cant remember the name) and demanded my bounty :) Ragnar, Jade, Setec, TankCEO, Joshua Calvert, even Dalman...I wish you all well. ----
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.04.26 19:49:00 - [29] There was a direction I was trying to steer this thread in, so as to avoid the repurcussions you have witnessed. Upon the embarkation of this thread I was hoping to tread a fine line, respectfully close to the letter of the law, yet still within the governed territory. Having been found, guilty of infringment of said bylaws, I will do what I can to encourage discussion yet still remain legal. In response to the wise words of Omber Zombie, it is true that the so called, Golden Age has passed, and it is into a bleak and possibly draconian future we are taking ourselves. In recent times there have been certain events ingame, that when drawn into the public eye, for better or worse, forced the mighty CCP hand to be shown. In the same spirit of open discourse, I ask of the powers that be, to not brush what has been said and subsequently unsaid here, but to consider what has happened in here as a measure of current affairs. It was better how it used to be; things are becoming harsher, colder, even more immature. It is the burden taken upon yourselves to herd us to a safe distance from certain topics, and those are the rules that we abide by in order to exist here. However, understand that as a whole, whilst the responses garnered here are more inline, it may not be for the best. This will be my last post here, and I respectfully ask any one who cares to rewrite what has been said, to do so such that some information can be garnered from the remains, much in the way that Jacques has already. Thankyou for your time. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.04.26 20:16:00 - [30] The arch of player legends. Establishment, Elevation, Entrapment, Disillusionment/Burnout, Departure. You spend a few months to a year establishing yourself in the community, the next year to two years building your credibility once your name is known, then you get elevated by whatever means to a community legend. There's the apex. You can get a lot of hangtime out of that ride, but eventually, some change catches you off guard, you paint yourself into an inescapable corner, and you get sick of it. After that, its a free fall in enjoyment until you finally just log off for the last time. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...

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