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Tactical Warfare in Eve -- Why CCP is Going the Wrong Way

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:33:00 - [1] The situation that CCP has been trying to fix for the past 4 years is the concept of "blob warfare". The problem is that these resolutions never really work. They up the HP and people just use more ships. So now they are talking about nerfing the damage from multiple opponents. Despite the fact that this makes no sense in a "suspension of disbelief", it represents a massive nerf to the newer players and the light ships. Some of the stuff in the new dev blog is frankly disturbing. They promise to represent a MAJOR nerf to the smaller ships in the game and the practice of tactical warfare. No, we don't need 20km smartbombs and area effect weapons that can insta-pop anything smaller than battleship at long range. That sort of weapon would totally remove the need for anything but a battleship in PVP and if you think blobbing is bad now, wait til then. All of this for people with lots of grape-derived alcoholic beverages and no creativity? What is the blob in Eve? Its stupidity. Frankly put AGONY has demonstrated numerous times that a blob is a useless entity. To describe, lets take your average blob. If I have 30 BS and the other guy has 25, he safespots and vice versa. There is the situation where the Blobs actually meet and they all primary one target and he insta-pops, They target a second and he instapops and so on. What is the defense to this? Frankly brains. You dont need 20 BS to take down one in short order. Consider 2 "blobs" of 20 BS. In one blob they all target one ship. The second "blob" divides their pilots into groups of 5 with independent primary calling. One ship gets hit by 20 guns and pops. 4 ships get hit by 5 guns on the other side and 4 of them die in the time it takes enemy fleet to re-target secondary and get the guns on it. The true blob spends more time targeting than shooting. There are a number of ways to attack a blob and those ways are only limited by your imagination. So what is the difference between a blob and a fleet? The difference is simply that the fleet uses tactics and strategy and the blob just says "come out in your bs and get here quick." Agony has put together countless gangs of new players to pvp, organized them, trained them, skilled them and turned them into an organized fleet that does many fantastic things. You need merely visit the class killboard at www.agony-unleashed.com to see the effect of a FLEET. These fleets do so well because they are trained in tactics the setups are managed and the gangs are disciplined. There isn't a gaggle of geese on Ventrilo, the gagglers get muted and the geese are managed. Now if we can turn a bunch of newbies to PvP into a lethal, effective fighting force, why cant the players with PvP experience do it? The answer to that question is the main problem CCP is futily trying to fix. There are two problems with Eve PvP. Pilots are risk averse and lazy. First of all many pilots are risk averse. You get their BS killed and they hate you, threaten to leave corp and so on. They are so risk averse that they wont engage unless they have a pure overkill. Engagements like on our recent "school day" video release are rare in Eve. Agony pilots are told not to even undock in anything they cant afford to lose. Its as simple as that. Any pilot in a fleet with me as commander knows that I WILL engage in even odds battles when the situation merits and I will be fine with sustaining losses so long as I have an overall victory or chance of victory. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:33:00 - [2] Edited by: Rells on 28/04/2007 19:29:55 When it comes to laziness, the trend in eve is amazing. There are thousands of pilots that don't care to synchronize, train tactics, think of strategy or develop new warfare techniques. Their idea of tactics is "everyone warp in at optimal and hit f1 through f8". Occasionally this is supplemented by the absolutely stupid advice of "mr newbie to corp get in an incurses with a point and go tackle for me." Never have so many new players been so abused as cannon fodder and taught such BAD ideas. Agony has managed to show that through tactics a fleet of frigs alone can be a very powerful force in the game. This requires these pilots to have 5 hours of training just to be a BEGINNER. To be a captain in agony you are looking at 200 hours of just reading and class work alone. The result is that agony pilots are lethal with much less than our opponents. So why say this? Smack talk? Saying how great we are? Well to be honest I am intensely proud of the pilots of AGONY. Seeing a single player 4 months into the game solo an interceptor in a tech 1 frigate or seeing a previously timid pvper turn into a great fleet commander has made me proud. However, that isnt the point of this post. The point of this post is that if we can do tactics, so can YOU. Yes, all of the player in the game can choose to set aside the blob and think of new ways to use their ships. They can learn new tactics and develop new warfare methods but only IF THEY CHOOSE to. They can not be forced. The lazy and risk averse can not be pushed into not being lazy and thinking about ships as disposable unless they want to. They can DECIDE to change their ways but not a dang thing that CCP can do will change those that don't want to. If you nerf damage of multiple ships, people will get bigger ships and just use 50 ships instead of 20. Instead of nerfing the blob, you encourage it. Area effect weapons will NERF not the blob of BS nearly as much those using tactics and mixed fleets. Distance EWAR (think EMP pulse missiles) is something interesting but the fleet movement system (warp in a sphere) makes that problematic at best. All of this will not solve the problems of Risk Averse or Lazy pilots. When it comes down to it, the players have the option of how to do engagements. There are no magic formulas in Eve and AGONY has proven how a small force can be effective against the blobs and the unorganized. Its up to the players to solve the problems of blobbing, not CCP. If CCP continues going down this road, they risk debacles like the Nanophoon and other massively unbalancing destructive influences in the game. The solutions to blobs? Avoid them, outmaneuver them, outsmart them with tactics. Rushing headlong against a brick wall is unproductive. Disassemble it brick by brick. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Mobius Amarr DEROB	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:43:00 - [3] i agree with you on use of proper tactics can win out the day. I used to fight in bwf solo against gate blobs all it takes is time and knowing what your ship can do and what it can't(cloaked bs so flame me). I find the problem being more with people unwilling to adapt to the situation instead they go i've always done it this way y change make ccp change to me.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:53:00 - [4] Originally by: Mobius instead they go, "i've always done it this way y change make ccp change to me." That is one of the primary problems my friend. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Jarna Amarr Eve University	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:58:00 - [5] I agree with you guys. And dang Mobius....Are you my long lost brother?
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.28 20:11:00 - [6] Wait a minute, all that rings true, but theres other issues involved. Fisrt off, CCP thinks blobs are bad, ok. Why are they bad? The gank factor? The lag? The node? Being an extended drone to some FC? The lack of quality, nail biting PvP? But What creates blobs? Sovereignity = POS spam = Fleet and Cap Fleet blobs. Enter the Titan and other SuperCapitals, anti-blob ships that fosters blobs by mere presence/rumor. Gates, which are chokepoints where you can engage the enmey. Harsh death penalties. Longer pve grinding to support pvp losses, people blob to protect their assets. No reason NOT to blob if you can. I dont know what the answer is, but I doubt it's more AOE. I really don't see any kind of reasonable way to mitigate this, barring a REVOLUTIONARY AND MUCH NEEDED CHANGE TO EVERYTHING POS AND SOV. Even then, let a rumor of a Titan being built get around and sure as hell, someone is getting up a 200 man blob...
Mortiferus Minmatar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 20:32:00 - [7] First off I totaly agree with Rells here. As a person that went from the huge blob mentalaty in a corp/alliance to Agony I can see the differance that tactics make. CCP will never stop the blob with in a large alliance trying to capture sov in a system. As stated players will always blob together. This is the only tactic that most alliances know. As stated most alliances will not fight a true fight unless they have 10 to 1 odds. Pilots in Eve do not want to loose there "fleet fitted" battleShips and most every player in Eve do not have a clue how to use a tactic. I personaly have seen this effect in when a alliance looses a "few" cap ships the leadership is so shocked fron the loss that they revert to a totaly blob mentalaty rather than use some good old brain power to come up with a plan and use some tactics. CCP you are moving in the wrong direction here. Want to stop the blobs? Think long range weapons and not area weapons. Give a group the means to use sniping tactics and you will see the end of the large gate type blobs. There are alot of ways to stop blobs that have nothing to do with nerfing those that use tactics. "There are two problems with Eve PvP. Pilots are risk averse and lazy." Rells This is truly a statement that should ring in every ones ears as this is so so true. Best looking man in M. Corp, OK Quit drooling over my good looks.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.28 21:41:00 - [8] Can't really say '/signed' here,but the OP is right. Good tactics >> Blob.too bad its often hard to direct a fleet the right way, mainly because of lag and game mechanic limitations. Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
HaiMyNameIsBlindMan Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.04.28 21:53:00 - [9] meh eve doesn't really have enough ways to use tactics anymore and that's what creates the blob because more numbers > the tiny increase in uberness from tactics
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.28 21:57:00 - [10] Sure blobs can be avoided, but under the current system you still have to deal with them (i.e. blob it up yourself) if you intend to play the 0.0 game which is what big alliances are 'intended' to do. With capital ships, POSes outposts and sov CCP has basically made 0.0 life predicated on phalanx warfare, through a combination of instapop ability and standing to lose so much if the fight doesnt go your way. So you want to take a bit of space for yourself, you can have all the good tactics in the world but if the defender puts 200 battleships outside the poses youre not getting anywhere. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..

Varus Riaz Gallente The Durandal Organization	Posted - 2007.04.28 21:57:00 - [11] I agree. The sad thing about it all is that CCP wants to curb the blobs, but every change they make just leads to larger blobs. You can kill the blob temporarily, but in a day it's replaced by a bigger blob, and then you kill that one, and so on and so forth. It's a huge destructive spiral into mega blobs.
Draekas Darkwater Sanctum Infinitas	Posted - 2007.04.28 22:07:00 - [12] I've never experienced blob warfare, but I've never understood the whole "primary" thing either. If it takes 10 ships to one shot a ship, then why use 100? If you had 100, why don't you then split them into squads of 10 or 12 each, with each squad calling its own primary to take the enemy down faster? I've often heard lag used as the reason for one fleet primaries, but as I said, I have no experience in the area.
Elmicker Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.28 22:27:00 - [13] Edited by: Elmicker on 28/04/2007 22:26:02 Originally by: Draekas Darkwater I've never experienced blob warfare, but I've never understood the whole "primary" thing either. If it takes 10 ships to one shot a ship, then why use 100? If you had 100, why don't you then split them into squads of 10 or 12 each, with each squad calling its own primary to take the enemy down faster? I've often heard lag used as the reason for one fleet primaries, but as I said, I have no experience in the area. Lack of competent FCs and organisational difficulties are the main problems. Blobs are when you get your entire alliance's rabble together. This is not the small, disciplined and experienced PvP gangs that Agony operate in. These are your industrialists and your ratters. For a force like this to work, things need to be as simple as possible. Once you start saying "You're in Squad A, you're listening to xxx, ignore Squad B and xxx." Things get confusing. There is currently no way to divide a fleet up in that way, and still keep effective target calling and communication of intelligence and maneuvering orders. There isn't really any conceivable way, anyway. You'd have to have a way of showing each squad commander what the other squad commander's primaries/secondaries are, and some way of communicating overall commands from one single commander. The above fact is that this level of organisation is unnecesary. The blob is an effective tool. When combined with tactics, the blob is nearly unstoppable. This is why forces such as BoB, who are capable of fielding 200 pilots and leading and supporting them effectively are absolutely supreme in EVE. Anyway, to the OP: all the engagements that you, as an Agony pilot, cite as evidence that the blob are inneffective are small/medium-scale gang engagements. I'm sure that had you encountered a large bubble and 30 snipers, the engagements would have went the way of the snipers. Small ship combat =/= Fleet scale 0.0 combat. Sure, a well-trained cruiser pilot can take on 3-4 of the same class and win, but since the nano nerf, what BS pilot can say that? BSs cannot maneuver. Once you remove maneuverability, it comes down to who can sit there, take the kicking and deal out the most damage; and lets face it, what does this better than 50 BSs 200km away alpha-striking everything they see?
Erim Solfara Amarr Tarlos INC	Posted - 2007.04.28 22:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Jarna I agree with you guys. And dang Mobius....Are you my long lost brother? Actually Jarna, I'm your brother, he's our dad... New ship class
Aakron Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.28 23:02:00 - [15] Tha big problem with large fights is lag, you bring XXX number of ships because in those huge skirmishes lots of people struggle to get their guns to fire, activate modules etc etc. If lag wasn't an issue I'm sure we'd see fleets far more effective in smaller squads with separate target calling, afterall as stated it doesnt take 300 ppl to instapop a Battleship. Personally I cannot see why focus fire is bad? Ok I tend to do engagements with far fewer pilots than the average Pos siege blob, but I'd absolutely hate to see ridiculous penalties against locking the same target or everyone firing at once. Don't NERF forced fire and the blob. Start giving far more realistic incentives to fly around in smaller numbers. Fix the client, server load distribtion and work on reducing the lag. Then big gangs will be able to work with multiple squads and wings dedicated to separate tasks, logistics, EW, different range and target calling. ---
Quintus Archipirata	Posted - 2007.04.29 00:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Aakron Fix the client, server load distribtion and work on reducing the lag. Then big gangs will be able to work with multiple squads and wings dedicated to separate tasks, logistics, EW, different range and target calling. Signed..... The problem it seems that CCP is having is they have no way to fix the lag. So they keep throwing bandaids at it and hope one works well enough to keep the real problem -(lag/client crashes)- from being complained about. We all know that Blobs will continue no matter what CCP does. it is a fact of the game. Sticking there heads in the sand and hoping that the problem will work it self out by implmenting bone headed fixs seems to be all CCP knows these days. Maybe the problems with the game is that the hardware is just not out there to be had that can handle loads we the players seem to want to have in game. Blobs are here to stay, nothing is going to change that. After all as the goons have proven it is the magic "I win" button. Crash the nods enough and CCP just throws there hands up and surrenders. Making changes to game play to fix a hardware/client problem is no fix at all just another bandaid. Figure out the name and u know my game!
Hannobaal Gallente Utopian Frontier	Posted - 2007.04.29 00:26:00 - [17] Rells is 100% right. Please CCP, do NOT listen to the damn whiners!!! ------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Windryder Caldari New Fnord Industries	Posted - 2007.04.29 00:57:00 - [18] I was one of those newbie PvPers last night. With just a few hours training, good organisation and intelligent leadership our fleet of frigates was quite a fearsome force - fearsome enough that two fleets of larger ships were trying desperately to corner us. The oganisation and fleet command started before we'd even unpacked our gear. We were not a blob. We didn't fit-out and pilot 30 frigates. We fitted out a single fleet intelligently (and remarkably quickly), each "pilot" controlling an instrument of orchestrated tactics. I commented at the time that Dez (our Agony instructor) was playing chess. Move, counter-move, mistake, pounce. Our "practical" session lasted about 6 hours. At the end a lot of people had left, we had a few casualies - we were down to just 10 frigates, and aside from our commander we each had a total of just 6 hours PvP experience. But we were organised as a fleet and we were using tactics. And that was how 10 first-day newbs in frigates downed a TechII-fitted Megathron. I felt sorry for the poor sod because I knew what the outcome was going to be before we even started. So I'm with Rells on this one. Fix the behaviour by fixing the mechanics that cause that behaviour - don't add another mechanic to change the behaviour directly. "Never underestimate the power of a n00b to blunder through a dangerous situation unharmed and obliviously unaware."
Swindy The Praxis Initiative FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 01:31:00 - [19] Pilots are averse to risk because a loss is a real loss; losing even a poorly fitted BS is the equivalent of lighting $5 on fire. Losing a faction fitted BS? A whole lot more than that. Losing a Titan? Well, that's a mortgage payment. Insurance, while it may help with T1 ships and mods, is a joke for T2 ships and mods. And yet the pilots of EVE say that this "hardcore" aspect of the game is one of the main things they like about it. It's what separates this game from WoW for example. The very nature of large-scale PvP and POS warfare in this game causes blobbing. The question is, how to fix blobbing without killing the small roving gangs and the small ship specialists?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 01:51:00 - [20] Originally by: HaiMyNameIsBlindMan meh eve doesn't really have enough ways to use tactics anymore and that's what creates the blob because more numbers > the tiny increase in uberness from tactics Eve has huge opportunities for using tactics. If you cant think of any than that is YOUR failing, not Eve's. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?

Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 01:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Elmicker Anyway, to the OP: all the engagements that you, as an Agony pilot, cite as evidence that the blob are inneffective are small/medium-scale gang engagements. I'm sure that had you encountered a large bubble and 30 snipers, the engagements would have went the way of the snipers. It would have been a field day for agony. The fact is we don't walk into garbage like that. People don't snipe around us much because we will drop a fleet on them and ewar on their friends so that they are sitting ducks. That isn't magic, its effective use of recon forces and ewar. Originally by: Elmicker Small ship combat =/= Fleet scale 0.0 combat. Sure, a well-trained cruiser pilot can take on 3-4 of the same class and win, but since the nano nerf, what BS pilot can say that? BSs cannot maneuver. Once you remove maneuverability, it comes down to who can sit there, take the kicking and deal out the most damage; and lets face it, what does this better than 50 BSs 200km away alpha-striking everything they see? Agony are doing a lot more than small ships. Small ships are used in beginner classes for obvious reasons. Agony pilots fly everything from frigs to carriers. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 02:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Swindy Pilots are averse to risk because a loss is a real loss; losing even a poorly fitted BS is the equivalent of lighting $5 on fire. Losing a faction fitted BS? A whole lot more than that. Losing a Titan? Well, that's a mortgage payment. Please stop. This is just pathetic. What you want is safety then stay out of pvp and in empire. Once you go into pvp are you going to have some guts and take on the fight or just flee from anything remotely dangeorus. If you cant afford the ship you are in, get in something smaller. Smaller isnt useful? "LOL a fleet of destroyer n00bs" a pilot was recently quoted as saying when encountering the PVP-WOLFPACKS class. 5 minutes later he was in his clone and his faction raven was a pile of flaming wreckage. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Swindy The Praxis Initiative FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 03:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Rells Please stop. This is just pathetic. What you want is safety then stay out of pvp and in empire. Once you go into pvp are you going to have some guts and take on the fight or just flee from anything remotely dangeorus. If you cant afford the ship you are in, get in something smaller. Smaller isnt useful? "LOL a fleet of destroyer n00bs" a pilot was recently quoted as saying when encountering the PVP-WOLFPACKS class. 5 minutes later he was in his clone and his faction raven was a pile of flaming wreckage. Rells, I've taken both your Frigate and Destroyer classes, and I've been in 0.0 alliances for quite some time now, so I'm not sure where this attitude of yours is coming from. But to ignore the real risks involved in PvP is just short-sighted. You complain about blobs, then brag about the dangers of PvP. You're not seeing the forest for the trees here. As long as people are effectively losing hours, days, or weeks of work when they lose a ship in combat they will look for ways to minimize that risk. Bringing lots of friends to the fight is perhaps the easiest way to do that.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 03:52:00 - [24] So then fly something smaller. You dont have to bring the faction BS on every gang. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.29 03:55:00 - [25] Or they will just blob, because thats easier and less risk. Its the path of least resistance. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Del Narveux Or they will just blob, because thats easier and less risk. Its the path of least resistance. And those that employ tactics will rip their heart out. SO what is the problem? Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:22:00 - [27] What they should do is.... 1. The more ships in your fleet, the larger your sig amplification = Easier and faster to be lock. 2. The more ships in your fleet, the more local ECM noise = You take longer to lock onto enemies. Takes time to break through the surrounding noise. 3. Fleet damage bleed through. If you are in a fleet you will take a percentage of the damage that anyone else takes. It might only be 0.1%, but if the other fleet are calling 10 primaries then you are getting 10 lots of bleed through. Call it flak. 4. Beyond a certain number of ships and you get Friendly fire flak. A percetage of all damage inflicted by your fleet is returned upon you. I could go on, but there are a multitude of ways to discourage Blobs without killing gang and smaller fleet warfare.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot What they should do is.... 1. The more ships in your fleet, the larger your sig amplification = Easier and faster to be lock. 2. The more ships in your fleet, the more local ECM noise = You take longer to lock onto enemies. Takes time to break through the surrounding noise. 3. Fleet damage bleed through. If you are in a fleet you will take a percentage of the damage that anyone else takes. It might only be 0.1%, but if the other fleet are calling 10 primaries then you are getting 10 lots of bleed through. Call it flak. 4. Beyond a certain number of ships and you get Friendly fire flak. A percetage of all damage inflicted by your fleet is returned upon you. I could go on, but there are a multitude of ways to discourage Blobs without killing gang and smaller fleet warfare. Again that nerfs large organized fleets and people would simply not fleet up and show up with 200 single ships or single, unaffiliated squads.. So not only would all of this not solve the "intended" problem, it would make the use of tactics DETEREMENTAL to combat. Talk about going the WRONG direction. Are you really trying to encourage more unorganized warfare? There is no "anti blob" method that fails to hit tactical warfare harder than stupid warfare and all of these anti-blob tactics simply wouldnt work. Do we want to tell every new player that they have to train solid for a year before they can go PVP? Suggestions such as yours would ruin the game. You have to consider the overall impact of your suggestions, not just what you intend. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Jack Talonis	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:36:00 - [29] I agree whole heartedly with the OP and would love to add my .02 isk I think people just copy the big alliances- "hey look that alliance controls 1/3 of the known universe so they must be doing something right". We need innovation out there people.. Revolution not evolution!! Imagine if today a conventional army only fielded heavy tanks (they have the best armor and can do the most damage right?). They would be taken to pieces by a balanced and combined force, every ship has it place and its purpose. Its our job as players to find those and utilize them to their full potential.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:36:00 - [30] Edited by: sartorii on 29/04/2007 04:34:44 Originally by: Windryder We were not a blob.....And that was how 10 first-day newbs in frigates downed a TechII-fitted Megathron. I felt sorry for the poor sod because I knew what the outcome was going to be before we even started. hate to break the new to you, but 10 to 1 IS a blob... and doesnt require tactics.. only a blind man wouldnt know the outcome prior.. limiting the number of ships that can engage a single target IS REALISTIC.. 200 ships cannot fire on a single target due to line of sight issues. Hell 5 ships cannot fire on the same target if they are not arranged properly, and an astute pilot/opponent would exploit whatever formation they WERE in to limit the number of weapons that could be brought to bear in total. Eve atm doesnt have those (LOS issues), because position, formation, and firing arcs are meaningless. There isnt a fix for that atm that current hardware and architecture can support, so some 'artificial' method is necessary to balance. AOE weapons would be a start, but really that raises the same LOS issues, because Eve doesnt have exact enough controls and spacial relationships to make 'defensive formations' useful. That and it doesnt make sense to penalize a fleet for 'being to close' when there is no counter balance to reward the Commander who DOES organize his fleet to bring the optimal number of weapons to bear. *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*



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