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Sidrat Flush Caldari Sidrat Inc. Emporium	Posted - 2007.04.29 13:47:00 - [1] I've recently found out that the ice belts in high sec systems (0.8 and above) are not going to grow back once they're mined out. That's okay, I can live with that, but what's the chances of spawning more ice belts in the .4-.7 systems? Is Ice really that rare? Not that I enjoy mining ice in any way, but as a hopeful pos owner (when the standings are done) I need ice. From my current location it's atleast seven or more jumps away. And even then I don't think the supply is going to be full time. Rebalance the Ice Fields CCP. Think of the Pos Children. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.04.29 14:52:00 - [2] It will take serious alliance mining op to pop one of those ice roids. Assuming good sized alliance. So those belts left in 0.5 to 0.7 should still be quite adequate. Not that I'm against adding them a bit more, I just think they are not needed with desperation of nothing to mine.
Alaris Nightshadow Caldari Rogue Arrow Galactic Empire O X I D E	Posted - 2007.04.29 18:58:00 - [3] Edited by: Alaris Nightshadow on 29/04/2007 18:54:20 Get a group of 3-6 or more players in Makinaws or Covetors, and a hauler or two in a Mk V and you should be able to mine enough in one day to last for a week to a month depending on how many towers you are planning on running. It helps if a member of your corp learning the Mining Director skills and run the Ice Harvesting module on a BC or Command Ship. I know for a fact that an 8-12 hour mining op can yield a few thousand cubes if you have a dedicated group of miners ----------------------------------------------- "We fear that which we cannot see... we respect that which we cannot see... thus the blade will be wielded."
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:06:00 - [4] Well, looking (often at the mo - stockpiling fuel for my first POS ) at the plain vanilla ice in Kino the roids are 20-40K in size and there are loads of them. Taking that I get ~ 36 units/hour per Hulk involved and that's almost maxed out output it would take over a month of non-stop work to mine out even one of the roids. I dont even know whether they actually "re-grow" back
Alaris Nightshadow Caldari Rogue Arrow Galactic Empire O X I D E	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:10:00 - [5] Edited by: Alaris Nightshadow on 29/04/2007 19:06:39 aside from a Hulk being able to be its own hauler, a Mackinaw is better for mining ice, you would get ~44 cubes/hr, more if you counted the gang effects ----------------------------------------------- "We fear that which we cannot see... we respect that which we cannot see... thus the blade will be wielded."
Sidrat Flush Caldari Sidrat Inc. Emporium	Posted - 2007.04.29 23:59:00 - [6] Certainly where there are ice belts, they'll be around for quite a while. Considering they're about 100+kms long, and any corp that mines ice for 8-12 hours is a serious contender for involuntary placement in the asylum. That said, I'm a single corp guy based in the Citadel region and there's very very few ice belts around. Those that are there is located in the southern edge. I know this is a whine and whinge, but seriously a more balanced propagation would be better. I may have to move my proposed area of operations which were chosen BECAUSE of the seemingly undeveloped nature of the area. Perhaps I've found out why. On the subject of mining ice, could the ice refining skill description be updated to reflect you don't actually need it TO refine ice in the first place. What are the benefits (for those statisticians out there) to a character holding the ice refinning skill at level 4. Or is it just a really really bad time sink? Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Scordef	Posted - 2007.04.30 03:04:00 - [7] Mining 101: You'll make more money per hour mining high-sec ore (probably even Veldspar) than you will mining high-sec ice. You can then turn around, sell that ore, buy ice fuel and walk away with spare isk.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Sidrat Inc. Emporium	Posted - 2007.04.30 04:49:00 - [8] Sorted, thanks very much. So erm, who are the people that mine ice in high sec systems? Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.04.30 06:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Scordef Mining 101: You'll make more money per hour mining high-sec ore (probably even Veldspar) than you will mining high-sec ice. You can then turn around, sell that ore, buy ice fuel and walk away with spare isk. QTF The only reason I mine ice sometimes is because cycles are so long that I can left the whole thing unatended for long periods of time. Also, the neverending roids allow me to mine for hours without moving. Good thing to do when you can't actually put 100% of your mind into the game (babysiting 2 kids myself). And also, I don't sell it, I stock pile for my tower. But yeah, I make more when I mine veldspar.
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Alaris Nightshadow aside from a Hulk being able to be its own hauler, a Mackinaw is better for mining ice, you would get ~44 cubes/hr, more if you counted the gang effects That's a theory (I get 36K m3/hour in a Hulk under the same conditions). In RL (Eve version of it anyhow) no-one seems to jetcan ice nor have I come across large scale ice mining ops which would benefit from Mining Director skills (the only other skill that affects ice mining) hence Hulk outmines Mackinaw everytime. Being of curious mind and not trusting paper calculations I actually bought Mackinaw and ran trials side by side - no comparison, the Hulk wins, especially so if you factor in the hussle factor. What the Mining Guide also never mentiones when comparing the Hulk and the Mackinaw is that the latter have no CPU to speak of compare to the former. All those mid slots would either have to be left empty (leaving you wide open to rats) or you have to leave your Mining Upgrades home (sacrificing mining productivity) or spend days or even weeks training up Mining Upgrades (level 4 skill) and hoping that it would free up enough CPU to fit anything there. None of the above is an issue with the Hulk: with 3 passive kin shield hardeners you can simply ignore the rats (Caldari space - hardeners obviously vary depending on where you mine). I tend to kill them anyway cuz they annoy me but you don't have to. So, if you're talking about a large scale ice mining op with jetcanning and haulers and a rat patrol or even a command ship - sure it's a Mackinaw time (just dont forget to factor in ALL people involved when calculating your hourly output, including those who dont do the actual mining). If it's a 1-2 people who simply want to fuel a small POS - it's the Hulk all the way. And with the blasted inventors lurking about the prices of them plummeted to "why bother with any other mining barge?" level. I can buy 2 now for less then I paid for the cheapest one of mine just a few months ago. Originally by: Scordef Mining 101: You'll make more money per hour mining high-sec ore (probably even Veldspar) than you will mining high-sec ice. You can then turn around, sell that ore, buy ice fuel and walk away with spare isk. Mining 102: stop reading Mining Guide without thinking - it's a good guide but being a theoretical paper it's misguided in many areas. With my skills ice mining in a Hulk (3x Ice Harvester IIs with 2x Ice Harvesting Upgrades) produces 3 units of ice every 5 minutes (4 mins 58 secs to be precise) which allows for 3 cycles (9200m3 hold capacity) before you need to do anything. If you find any other ore you can mine attending to your mining ship every 15 minutes or so - do share. Plus there is no targetting different rocks, changing crystals, realising that you forgot to bring a spare for the one that is about to run out and all other "fun" things associated with normal mining. I can work/read/watch something quite happily and every 15 minutes when the "beep!" goes off simply hop to my cold storage and offload. Plus I'm reluctant to pay for something I don't have to - it's a personal preference . YMMV
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Sidrat Flush On the subject of mining ice, could the ice refining skill description be updated to reflect you don't actually need it TO refine ice in the first place. What are the benefits (for those statisticians out there) to a character holding the ice refinning skill at level 4. Or is it just a really really bad time sink? Erm... Yeah, it is, a really really bad time sink that is - you only need Level 1 to refine it without loss. BTW, I'm not sure where Kino (Lonetrek) is in relation to the north of the Citadel but there are 2 ice belts there. I live in Kaunokka (The Citadel) but get my ice from there.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:08:00 - [12] Do the mining upgrade mods effect ice miners?
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Wild Rho Do the mining upgrade mods effect ice miners? I should have said "Ice Harvester Upgrades" - sorry The do exactly what mining upgrades do only instead of increasing output they drop the cycle time. The rest - CPU requirements increase effect etc - are the same as for mining upgrades and Mining Upgrade skill governs their effect ie reduces the CPU nerf with each level. YMMV
Sidrat Flush Caldari Sidrat Inc. Emporium	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:53:00 - [14] As I'm not a hulk pilot (nor likely to be without +10 implants anyone :D ), I feel it would be easier (somewhat) to buy the fuel and trade goods from the market. I have left the previous system (apart from a ship, dunno why) and am now based seven/eight jumps away for a lvl 3 agent and the neighbourhood is good. I may possibly put up a public contract for a monthly supply of pos goods for a fair price. Anyone like to give an estimate including delivery for a 30 day supply Small, medium and possibly (if I'm drunk enough) large caldari pos. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Sidrat Flush ... I feel it would be easier (somewhat) to buy the fuel and trade goods from the market. .... You are totally correct. However, without derailing the thread, keep in mind: 1) Is better to mine ore, sell it and buy fuel. 2) If nobody mine ice, who will sell the fuel? 3) Enter the macro.
Balcura	Posted - 2007.05.01 01:56:00 - [16] Here are the numbers for the guy who mentioned that a hulk would beat a Mac every day. Skill level: Ice harvesting 5, Exhumers 5, Mining upgrades 4 & 3% implant (cuse they arn't that expensive) Equipment: 2/3 Ice miner II's (500sec cycle time), 2 ice mining upgrades & what ever tank you want as high sec rats fall to light or med drones to fast to really worry about. (I use passive hardners and a tech 2 small booster leaving 1 slot open) Hulk: (15% cycle time bonus) 3 peices of ice per cycle 500sec (base) * .85 (exumers 5) * .75 (Ice Harvesting 5) * .95 (ice harvesting upgrade 1) .95 (ice harvesting upgrade 2) .97 (3% mining implant) = 279.04 sec per cycle 279.04/3 = 93.01 sec per ice Mac: (25% penalty to cycle time & 25% bonus to cycle time) 4 pieces of ice per cycle 500sec (base) * 1.25 (penality) * .75 (exumers 5) * .75 (ice harvesting 5) * .95 (ice harvesting upgrade 1) .95 (ice harvesting upgrade 2) .97 (3% mining implant) = 307.77 sec per cycle 307.77/4 = 76.94 sec per ice As you can see the mac gathers ice 17.3% faster. BTW Those are the numbers and it actually works that way... (a BC or command ship with the gang mods and implant can decrease the cycle time by another 22.5% but that effects both ships evenly... added bonus is that the command ship can tank the rats for you so rats are not an issue)
Neveren Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:33:00 - [17] Pretty much.. Do something else.. Leave the ice to the Macro miners.. and just keep getting cheap fuel I mean unless you plan on living in deep 0.0.. Empire ice product market is controled by the macros :/ sad that ice is another worthless profession STC recruiting!
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Balcura Here are the numbers for the guy who mentioned that a hulk would beat a Mac every day. Thanks for that - I can assure you I can use a calculator too. Please read my post again - all of it this time Let me try again: First of all - this applies 100% to a small mining op running in Empire. With my very limited experience of low sec mining I can't say "this is how we do it in 0.0" but on the gut feel I'd take a Hulk simply because it's built like a tank and feels safer to be in. In theory you're right on the money - the Mac output is higher then that of a Hulk. But let's look at what happens when you actually undock and do some ice mining. I've yet to come across a large scale ice mining op, no-one seems to jetcan ice (returning to the station for offload at the end of each cycle). This is what I see every day when I go to ice fields in Kino, Lonetrek - please come a have a look for yourself. Let's do some numbers: My skill set (relevant skills): Exhumers 4, Ice Harvesting 5, Mining Upgrades 2. Hulk - 297.82 sec/cycle, 3 icicles per cycle Mac - 338.43 sec/cycle, 4 icicles per cycle Don't forget to add at least 3 minutes as a turnaround time - really pushing it but, for argument sake, let's say you can do it in 3 minutes every time subject to your station pointing the right way (ie you dont get stuck when trying to turn before warp), you are docking when you click "dock" just once (still not fixed) and all other factors. So, lets see the revised (or "real") numbers: Hulk - 297.82x3+180=1073.46, say 1074 seconds to get 9 icicles (Cargo rig x1, hold capacity 9200 m3 hence 3 cycles before the hold is full) or 30 icicles/hour. This is what I get in my hangar after an hour of ice mining in my Hulk. Mac - 338.43+180=518.43, say 519 seconds to get 4 icicles (cargo hold won't hold more than 1 cycle worth of ice, rigged or not rigged) so all you get is 28 icicles an hour - and that's exactly what I get in my hangar after an hour of ice mining in a Mackinaw. Err... I meant to say "BTW Those are the numbers and it actually works that way..." (with your skills/implants you'd get 32/hour in a Hulk and almost 30/hour in a Mac) Add to that your Mining Ugrades 4 needed to get anything into Mac's mid slots (I've got 3 passive shield hardeners and a roid scanner in my Hulk). That's a week's worth of training which doesn't really do anything productive. Compare to 20-odd days for Exhumers 5 it's probably not a lot but still... If you still feel you're better off with Mackinaw - by all means, please carry on using it... Originally by: Balcura a BC or command ship with the gang mods and implant can decrease the cycle time by another 22.5% I have no idea about gang mods - presume you need Mining Director for this? But if 22.5% figure is correct you'd need at least 5 ships mining for your command ship to see a very small increase in output versus 6 guys just mining with no command ship... leave alone the fact that with "normal" state of our Charisma attribute training Mining Director (a level 5 skill) would take almost forever. YMMV
Mattdathor	Posted - 2007.05.02 14:51:00 - [19] No offense, but i could adept your logic and prove, that an Iteron Mark V is a better miner than a Retriever under the circumstance of "going afk for 1h". Of course the Iteron wins with the bigger cargo, but thats not the point. PS: I DO see Industrial mining in Tash on a regular basis
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.03 06:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Mattdathor No offense, but i could adept your logic and prove, that an Iteron Mark V is a better miner than a Retriever under the circumstance of "going afk for 1h". Of course the Iteron wins with the bigger cargo, but thats not the point. PS: I DO see Industrial mining in Tash on a regular basis None taken. I simply give up: you can lead a horse to water but if the blasted nag does not want to drink it - you can't force him, right? Btw - fancy a nice almost new Mac? I only used it for testing, low mileage and all that lark, honest! PS: I DO believe there's one born every minute YMMV
Fitz VonHeise United Connection's	Posted - 2007.05.07 19:45:00 - [21] Edited by: Fitz VonHeise on 07/05/2007 19:43:32 Well you've convinced me! For the casual miner that starts mining and then goes off to do other things and comes back much later this is great news. I can put in 2 Cargohold Optimizations with Expanded Cargohold IIÆs and it will hold over 17,000m. That is 16 units of ice! It will take about an hour to mine it but who cares! You can actually watch a movie with the kids or do a cook out during that time.
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.05.07 23:22:00 - [22] Once I took a roid scanner to an ice belt in low sec: 67k units left. That equates (with average skills I have) to about 502,500 man hours (not including hauling). In conclusion, we will never run out of ice unless ppl stop mining it Khaldari Research Services KPA Recruiting!
Major Stallion The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.08 04:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Carniflex It will take serious ~~alliance~~ MACRO mining op to pop one of those ice roids. Assuming good sized alliance. So those belts left in 0.5 to 0.7 should still be quite adequate. Not that I'm against adding them a bit more, I just think they are not needed with desperation of nothing to mine. fixed...with a clicky
Vactet Immortalis Silens	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:43:00 - [24] Edited by: Vactet on 09/05/2007 17:40:38 .... Originally by: Michael Caldar Originally by: Balcura Here are the numbers for the guy who mentioned that a hulk would beat a Mac every day. Thanks for that - I can assure you I can use a calculator too. Please read my post again - all of it this time Let me try again: First of all - this applies 100% to a small mining op running in Empire. With my very limited experience of low sec mining I can't say "this is how we do it in 0.0" but on the gut feel I'd take a Hulk simply because it's built like a tank and feels safer to be in. In theory you're right on the money - the Mac output is higher then that of a Hulk. But let's look at what happens when you actually undock and do some ice mining. I've yet to come across a large scale ice mining op, no-one seems to jetcan ice (returning to the station for offload at the end of each cycle). This is what I see every day when I go to ice fields in Kino, Lonetrek - please come a have a look for yourself. Not gonna post the rest of it...but i felt like correcting you here. About a week ago my corp decided to mine high sec ice (we were terribly bored, long story on exactly why).3 Mackinaw's. 0 Hulks (All 3 mackinaw pilots are also hulk pilots and have hulks, but mack's are better). 2 Haulers working double time and one Nasty surprise. Two of the mackinaw's had 7.5KM 2pnt warp scramers. One had a webber. All are sitting in a tight cluster, dumping into one can. Are we expecting an ore thief? Yep. Is there cover? Not that he can see. 50KM off of us sits a manticore cloaked. Some tard comes in with a badger and scoops 4 blocks of ice. Immediately got webbed and warp scrammed silly. Manticore uncloaks and presto...we got our ice back and he got a lesson in why that was a bad idea. Point is...with the right skills and bonus's..yeh..mackinaws. Oh and wait..one big thing... SLIGHT PRICE DIFFERENCE! Still with the new low hulk price...sheesh. And as long as your team isnt incompotent then you can easily and safely mine into a jet can. Group jetting into 1 can= one place for haulers to go, faster turn arounds. Oh and yes, the **er decided to be funny and brought back a combat ship, a rupture. To bad one of the hauler pilots had switched to his domi...that..hurt alot, i think i heard the rupture whimper. Point being....USE one's head. PS: Im half asleep so excuse my rambling, but i was trying to prove a point without alot of fancy numbers and such which make my head hurt more right now. Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by:** CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Sultry Wench Caldari Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Sidrat Flush Certainly where there are ice belts, they'll be around for quite a while. Considering they're about 100+kms long, and any corp that mines ice for 8-12 hours is a serious contender for involuntary placement in the asylum. A great truth spoken quite well, I'd say. Mining Ice is like working at McDonalds. You just KNOW you could be doing MUCH better.
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.10 15:33:00 - [26] I think those who have said mine ore and buy ice have forgotten the hidden cost of hauling the ice. Minerals can be sold anywhere and ice is normally sold in hubs. Personally, I prefer to mine ice to save myself the trip to jita. Sales: Capital Ships \| Covetors Delivered - Bulk/Package/BYOM
Scordef	Posted - 2007.05.11 13:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Michael Caldar Originally by: Scordef Mining 101: You'll make more money per hour mining high-sec ore (probably even Veldspar) than you will mining high-sec ice. You can then turn around, sell that ore, buy ice fuel and walk away with spare isk. Mining 102: stop reading Mining Guide without thinking - it's a good guide but being a theoretical paper it's misguided in many areas. Um... Thanks for accusing me of reading the mining guide and quoting it without thinking. I'll take that as a compliment since I've never read it. I've been wasting my life long enough mining in Empire, both ore and ice to not need a guide to tell me what's plainly evident. Quote: With my skills ice mining in a Hulk (3x Ice Harvester IIs with 2x Ice Harvesting Upgrades) produces 3 units of ice every 5 minutes (4 mins 58 secs to be precise) which allows for 3 cycles (9200m3 hold capacity) before you need to do anything. Apply similar skill points to ore mining and setting up a Hulk for ore mining (3 x Mod Stripper II's with 2 x Mining Upgrades) and you'll still be pulling more isk per hour on low-end ore than you will on low-end ice. Quote: If you find any other ore you can mine attending to your mining ship every 15 minutes or so - do share. Plus there is no targetting different rocks, changing crystals, realising that you forgot to bring a spare for the one that is about to run out and all other "fun" things associated with normal mining. I can work/read/watch something quite happily and every 15 minutes when the "beep!" goes off simply hop to my cold storage and offload. Plus I'm reluctant to pay for something I don't have to - it's a personal preference . At what point did I say you could mine ore unattended? I don't remember saying that... Nope, I've re-read my 2 sentance statement and no, i never said that. I said that high-sec ore is worth more isk per hour than high-sec ice (even if you factor in logistics of moving it all around). So I'm not sure what relevance your statement has to my post. If you want to AFK mine, I'm totally with you - Ice mining is far less attention intensive than ore mining. But once again, that has nothing to do with my statement.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Private Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.11 15:00:00 - [28] The whole mack/hulk arguement sounds like it comes down to preference. Personally I'm not going to be buying a mack, when I can pilot a hulk a day later, or sooner. It would be like me buying the best mining barge available when I've already got exhumer level 1 trained up. Before I need to mine (still haven't found any ice in my area though) I have to mission like a hairy missioning thing indeed. Thanks for the mathematics on exhumers though, really interesting, still comes down to a mute point as everyone will choose their own preference. Three turrets sounds better than two turrets even if those two turrets bring in twice as much as usual but they do take 25% longer. And mining ice is NOT what I want to spend time on. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.05.13 05:59:00 - [29] Realistick mack mining (small gang/solo) will bring in 44 blocks/hour Realistick hulk mining ice (small gang/solo) will bring 36 blocks/hour First solution is best if you can attend to your ship every once 5 to 7 minutes, second is for cases where you can attend your ship once every 15 or so minutes. And nobody in their right mind will actually mine, dock empty cargohold and go back to belt to mine, it cuts into effectivity in very serious way. Also mack can afk in high sec belts just fine without fear of death from those feeble little frigates. Just deploy 5 medium drones and they will automatically blast the rats at first wrong glance at your or your drones direction. They will not take even armor damage most cases.
Michael Caldar DangerZone Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.13 11:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Carniflex Realistick mack mining (small gang/solo) will bring in 44 blocks/hour Realistick hulk mining ice (small gang/solo) will bring 36 blocks/hour Duh... You mean "theoretical" cuz 44 blocks/hour is what Mack is capable of max outputting without hauling, just pure mining output (same as 36 for the Hulk). Vactet above gave a very good example of a small gang in Macks - 3 Macks, 2 haulers and a "mining protection vessel". These six guys would put 132 blocks an hour in a hangar - 44 x 3, assuming maxed out ice mining/exhumer skills. The same 6 guys would have put 180 blocks if they were using 6 Hulks - 30 x 6, see above for where 30 comes from - probably even a little more as I get 30 in a hangar per mining Hulk and I haven't finished Exhumers 5 yet. Oh well - never mind... May I remind everyone that a lovely, almost new Mack is still available in Kino? Get it quickly before the penny finally drops... /me banging my head against the keyboard and knocking myself out... YMMV

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