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Lucy Light	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:11:00 - [1] are they ever going to return to their former splendour?
Glassback M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:15:00 - [2] Explain. G. I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.04.30 21:38:00 - [3] Edited by: slothe on 30/04/2007 21:43:08 let me rephrase that. they were good before tier 2 bc, now they arent as good as b4. they never will be the same.
Khorian Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:28:00 - [4] Seems like even EvE is not save from mudflation. --------------------- This is the signature
korrey Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.30 22:41:00 - [5] Please keep in mind they are cruisers. A bit jumped up from the original one, but still cruisers. ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then Amarr may suite your needs surprisingly well.
Zirth Caldari Dragonian Freelancers CORE.	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:08:00 - [6] Well, for one, a battlecruiser uses cruiser-sized modules. It's not really a different size-class like frigate, cruiser and battleship are. Therefor it's not right to say that a battlecruiser is actually supposed to be stronger than a heavy assault cruiser, they both sound pretty leet, and the latter is even tech2, a command ship should not be able to kill a HAC, but a tier2 BC? Nah, they should be killable by a decent HAC, not always, but not way crappier. Anyway, the strength of HACs isn't really the problem though. Most can do what battlecruisers can do, what is however a problem: It's T2. Why is that a problem, it requires more skill training, but more than that, the bpo is not seeded, thus rare, thus able to be exploited and used to build the HAC, and then sell it overpriced. Comparing an Ishtar to a Myrmidon for example. I love the Ishtar, small ship, nice n agile, cool name, looks nice, can get a sweet tank with t2 resists, multiple waves of drones. Myrm is nice too, but it isn't more agile, doesn't have a better name or better looks imo, can't really do alot more damage. Why do I prefer the Myrmidon? Because the Myrmidon costs 36m, and insurance pays out 42m or so. And the Ishtar costs 200m, while the build price is maybe 15% of that, and thus insurance payout is crap. The problem with HACs is that they're damn expensive. Some have been nerfed, and with tier2 battlecruisers being able to do the same thing litterly upto 5 times cheaper makes a huge difference. If your raven was t2, and sold for 550m, and heavy assault battleships were introduced for the current 110m or so raven price, that's a bit how it is. There's nothing wrong with the raven (I know I know), but the costs are simply ridiculous. Why the hell would I pay 200m for an Ishtar if I could buy a 36m Myrmidon and have insurance pay out more than I payed for the actual ship? No reason that outweights the costs if you ask me. HACs are fine, costs are not. If the bpo was sold on the market it'd be a damn great and fun class to fly. Now people simply do not bother training for extra months and grinding 5 times as much to afford another HAC when they get blobbed, and instead go for the cheap and lower time-requiring battlecruisers.
korrey Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:21:00 - [7] Very true, and yes I also believe that the Tier 2 BC's are a bit overpowered. Like the Myrmidon and Drake. But I have to disagree with what you said about them not being a higher class. Though they may use the same sized modules, you cant ignore the fact that they have much higher base armor, cap, slots, weapon hardpoints and for the most part, dronebays. All of that combined I believe creates a superior class that is far and wide between cruisers and Battleships. And I still also believe they should be able to take down a HAC if both are relatively equal skilled. But you said something about Command Ships not being able to beat HAC's or something? Could you clarify that a bit? ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then Amarr may suite your needs surprisingly well.
Excesse Chaos Reborn 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.30 23:27:00 - [8] Try the vagabond. [.CR.] Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Elmo Pug ([email protected])
Scordite	Posted - 2007.05.01 00:06:00 - [9] Originally by: korrey Very true, and yes I also believe that the Tier 2 BC's are a bit overpowered. Like the Myrmidon and Drake. The myrmidon is perfect. If only everything else was balanced as well, and on the same scale, as the myrm. And despite what certain other people have said in this thread, it is one of the best looking ships ingame. Kinda reminds me of a Minbari warship ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Durethia Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.01 00:48:00 - [10] Originally by: korrey Edit: Ill explain what I think. It sounds to me like you want them to be able to beat the new tier BC's. Thats just my view, excuse me if im wrong. But I just dont ever see/hope it never happens, tier 2 BC's should always be able to beat a HAC. Just my opinion. Negative. But, let's not waste time on the obvious. HACs were destroying Battleships long before Tier 2 BCs were released.

korrey Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:45:00 - [11] Edited by: korrey on 01/05/2007 02:42:50 Originally by: Durethia Originally by: korrey Edit: Ill explain what I think. It sounds to me like you want them to be able to beat the new tier BC's. Thats just my view, excuse me if im wrong. But I just dont ever see/hope it never happens, tier 2 BC's should always be able to beat a HAC. Just my opinion. Negative. But, let's not waste time on the obvious. HACs were destroying Battleships long before Tier 2 BCs were released. Yes, but that doesnt make it right. A heavy Assault Cruiser should not be capable of destroying a battleship to be honest. A Command Ship should give on a run for its money, but even then I dont think it should crush a Battleship. I think things are more balanced than they were before, its just so different that everyone thinks its imbalanced. Like so- Day 1: Zealot BBQ's Raven (Imbalanced, but it was the norm) Day 2: Patch deployed, Raven BBQ's Zealot (Balanced, but its not normal, so people assume HAC's need a boost.) I think Tier 2 BC's ruined HAC's. You get more firepower, more slots and more HP for much much less money. I dont see HAC's being usefull until the price drops to where it should be. And final Edit Before I stop this rant: Due to the prices of HAC (mostly 120mil +) I think people assume greater performance. When infact they should be around the 50mil mark. Price on the market does not mean it should be better than a 50mil or even 100mil battleship! ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then Amarr may suite your needs surprisingly well.
Zirth Caldari Dragonian Freelancers CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.01 06:06:00 - [12] Zealot shouldn't beat a raven no, but as I said earlier, their strength isn't even the problem. It's the fact that say an Ishtar costs 200m, and takes more training probably than a 60-70m Domi that totally destroys it if the ishtar comes near. If the ishtar was sold at 30-40m like it would be sold if the bpo was seeded it'd be fine. Less costs and less power than say a battleship that is more expensive and stronger. That's balanced. Now you pay 3 times more for an ishtar than a Dominix and are much weaker than the Domi. Why'd you pay more to become weak? No reason. HAC strength is fine, the costs sadly are not, and all the invention crap hasn't had alot of impact on it, why'd anyone risc it, the ishtar if sold at 100m, half of what it's sold at now it's is still about as good as the Myrm (less dronebay, more nos power mostly) that everyone is buying for less than half of that. I hate to say it, but HACs, apart from the vaga costs too much, aren't worth it, and I hate saying it, can be fixed by seeding the bpo on the market. But I really go against that idea by principle, CPP shouldn't always step up and fix what is in my eyes an economy issue. (only problem with hacs is that they're way overpriced if you ask me. not worth it, you just get a BC instead much cheaper.)
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.01 07:58:00 - [13] As has been mentioned, HACs are about right - they're high powered cruisers. The problem comes when you start doing comparative costing, on T2 ship vs T1 ship. That's where it breaks down, because T2 ships are rarer. They're better than their tech 1 counterpart, but ... well, battleships remain 'king of the hill' for a reason. Now, if HACs were available for their insurance payout (which IIRC is about 40mil) then they'd seem a lot more reasonable a choice. (Hey, I can dream :)) They're still pretty good. However they're no longer exclusively grabbing a combat niche by the short and curlies, they have some competition in the form of BCs. The lattter are bigger, fatter and slower, but pack a comparable amount of 'punch' and 'tank'. Which is, as far as I can tell, exactly as it should be. Once HACs drift below 100mil I'll start considering using them for PvP. I hope they do, since more variety is only a good thing.
Blaxxor Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2007.05.01 09:41:00 - [14] Agree , HAC are fine and BC are fine to. The Power of the BC drive the HAC price down + Inventions. Just wait. Both have there Role in Warefare and both useful this is an good thing.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.01 11:54:00 - [15] Originally by: slothe Edited by: slothe on 30/04/2007 21:43:08 let me rephrase that. they were good before tier 2 bc, now they arent as good as b4. they never will be the same. Once nosfs nerfed against smaller ships they will be used more, imo. ---
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.01 13:49:00 - [16] I am not skilled in HACS, so my contribution to this thread is a question. Mybe, just maybe, for once we have a good rock/papers/scissors case? Do Battleships kill Tier2 BC's ? (Usually, I hope/think they do, correct me if I'm wrong) Do HACS kill Battleships ? (Usually, I think they do as well, please correct me if I'm wrongx2) Do Tier 2 BC's kill HAC's ? (Again Usually, I think they do, please correct me if I'm wrong x3) IF that is just about the case, I think we may have found some warfare balance, at least at that point.
Jasai Kameron Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Neuromandis Do HACS kill Battleships ? (Usually, I think they do as well, please correct me if I'm wrongx2) Don't reckon so, especially with most BS fitting heavy nosf these days.
Admiral Pieg Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:50:00 - [18] i thought this game was about risk vs reward? there is plenty of risk, but being easily beaten by a BC 1/10th of the cost of your hac isnt very rewarding. ______________ Pod from above.
Shoele Lialos Gallente Elite United Corp	Posted - 2007.05.01 14:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Admiral Pieg i thought this game was about risk vs reward? there is plenty of risk, but being easily beaten by a BC 1/10th of the cost of your hac isnt very rewarding. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Scordite	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Shoele Lialos Originally by: Admiral Pieg i thought this game was about risk vs reward? there is plenty of risk, but being easily beaten by a BC 1/10th of the cost of your hac isnt very rewarding. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Even if you can easily afford to lose an expensive HAC with expensive fittings, why would you fly it? The cheaper option does the same thing, better (vaga being the exception), why not get one of those instead? Does this sound right to you? ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.

Ariel Dawn SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.05.01 15:09:00 - [21] HACs lose (and should lose) to Tier 2 BCs because they are cheaper, not more expensive. A HAC costs 19-25m to build. A Tier 2 BC costs 30-35m to build. They are very well balanced as a HAC is still a Cruiser with BC being a class above. Going by build costs, HACs are extremely useful and powerful.
Excesse Chaos Reborn 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:15:00 - [22] If you're going to spend a disproportionate amount on a ship you should spend an equally disproportionate amount on the fittings. Just as you would (probably) put T2 fittings on a battlecruiser, so you should put faction mods on a HAC. Even the Vaga isn't that dangerous until you put faction gear on it - but when you do... [.CR.]
Morgaine Legray	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:37:00 - [23] sadly this is a case of ccp messing up the economy. The only way a player can 'afford' to fly and loose a hac is if they were one of the lucky players to initially get a bpo, they slave away for years and buy a bpo for 20-30 billion? or they slave away for hours upon hours day after day to pay for it. That or their alliance has a bpo and provides the ships to its pilots for pvp. So I guess if you want to pvp in a HAC, go join bob or D2 or one of those alliances with a very respectable bpo library.
korrey Amarr	Posted - 2007.05.01 17:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Excesse If you're going to spend a disproportionate amount on a ship you should spend an equally disproportionate amount on the fittings. Just as you would (probably) put T2 fittings on a battlecruiser, so you should put faction mods on a HAC. Even the Vaga isn't that dangerous until you put faction gear on it - but when you do... I think ive found out, all these problems revolve around nos being overpowered. Dont get it? Think. Zealot faction fitted (corpum EANMs and all)= 1 Billion isk Myrmidon dual repped plus T2 drones = ~100 Million isk Thats a lot of money to lose a Zealot to a nos myrmidon in under 4 minutes... ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then Amarr may suite your needs surprisingly well.
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:06:00 - [25] i pirate in my hacs, far more fun than BC or BS altho t2 large blasters on a vindi is <3 -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
Saul Reaver UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Excesse Try the vagabond. I agree, The vagabond is fast, Agile, Powerfull and is a great damage dealer. the perfect hit and run gank ship. Worth every bit of ISK in my opinion. [/url]
Excesse Chaos Reborn 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:28:00 - [27] Well... don't attack a myrmidon in a zealot then, just the same way that I'd duck out of fighting a drake in my vaga. Some things you can fight, some things you can't. That's life. [.CR.]
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.01 18:33:00 - [28] Originally by: korrey Yes, but that doesnt make it right. A heavy Assault Cruiser should not be capable of destroying a battleship to be honest. A PvP raider setup HAC will kill a PvE battleship. A similarly setup HAC will be owned by a short range setup battleship. (a sniping setup battleship will likely die vs a HAC at close range - of course taking drones out of the picture they'll die to frigate or two) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Lucy Light	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:42:00 - [29] i atcually think a hac should be able to go 50/50 with a battleship, and a command ship should be able to keep up with multiple bses.. i'm saying this in relation not to the size of the ship but in relation to the amouth if time it takes to train and the amount of money it cost to fit them.
Excesse Chaos Reborn 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.01 19:45:00 - [30] In that case, consider the wider range of targets you can attack in a HAC - any ship type (note: not all ships, just types) with the exception of command BCs and capitals. They cost more than a BS but give you many more options. [.CR.]



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