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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2740
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Posted - 2017.03.22 15:17:13 -
[1] - Quote
I'm glad to see CCP going ahead with the oft-requested change to moon mining to active harvest, and to changing reactions to a RAM activity. This should help everyone, considerably.
Question: Will reactions have their own cost index, like current RAM activities do? I'm assuming so, but it wasn't explicitly stated.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2740
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Posted - 2017.03.22 15:18:39 -
[2] - Quote
Oh, another question: will the current significant bonus for sovereignty for reactions/moon mining be preserved?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2741
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Posted - 2017.03.22 15:28:11 -
[3] - Quote
xttz wrote:Are we in a position to start talking details about a starbase hardware amnesty yet? We already have piles of worthless CSAAs and similar mods, and refineries will virtually finish off existing starbase functionality.
Time to start recycling it.
I wouldn't expect it yet. They still have to replace cynojammers, beacons, and jump bridges.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2741
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Posted - 2017.03.22 15:30:18 -
[4] - Quote
Okay, third question. I'm needy.
Do you have any estimate on the cost of these things? I'm mostly looking for an answer like "cheaper than a citadel, but more expensive than an engineering complex of the same size" or "cheaper than an EC of the same size." Exact numbers are obviously meaningless this far out.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2741
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Posted - 2017.03.22 15:38:06 -
[5] - Quote
Bear Templar wrote:Querns wrote:Okay, third question. I'm needy.
Do you have any estimate on the cost of these things? I'm mostly looking for an answer like "cheaper than a citadel, but more expensive than an engineering complex of the same size" or "cheaper than an EC of the same size." Exact numbers are obviously meaningless this far out.
From the blog they said: " Refineries will come in medium and large sizes with prices between that of Engineering Complexes and Citadels."
Yeah, see my edit; I found it. Derp.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2741
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Posted - 2017.03.22 15:57:28 -
[6] - Quote
Bear Templar wrote:Yeah it was strange, the edit wasn't there as i was typing my reply but was as I posted it.
Yeah, and it missed my addition at the bottom, even though I did the strikethrough and added the extra bit in the same edit. Strange.
Thanks for the effort, though! Always happy to be corrected when I'm objectively wrong.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2741
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Posted - 2017.03.22 16:03:46 -
[7] - Quote
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:Henry Plantgenet wrote:So since Moon mining will change..... Can you tell us what will happen to mobile siphon units? can we use these on refining facilities? This! Siphons?
You can siphon by going to someone else's belt and ninjamining it. You'll even get a lot more profit from it than the utterly pitiful amount you get from siphons currently.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2742
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Posted - 2017.03.22 16:14:09 -
[8] - Quote
Okay, fourth question. Hope I'm not detracting from all of the Chicken Little stuff going on ITT.
Regarding:
Quote: Once the chunk of moon rock has completed its journey into space, the Refinery can use its drill module to detonate the chunk into a minable asteroid field. The exact time of the detonation is controlled by the owners of the Refinery within limits. If the chunk is left unattended long enough it will disintegrate into the asteroid field on its own.
Will the detonation require a player to initiate it, or can it be scheduled?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2743
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Posted - 2017.03.22 16:30:23 -
[9] - Quote
Liira Savlin wrote:So here are some thoughts i have from what i've read so far:
Active gameplay is all well and good, but i do think these should be released with drilling platforms. If you assume drilling platforms provide the ability to passively extract resources, you could set the gameplay for these to work in tandem with drilling structures, but they would have less yield than actively mining them. Snuff and a few others here have raised some very important points about how this hurts lowsec groups that rely on passive moon goo income. If you're going to force active gameplay, you're going to HAVE to open up w-space and hisec to moon mining with these structures if you don't want to see the t2 economy to violently crash and burn. I'd bet my left toe that MOST of the people (if not upwards of 90%) rely on moon mining to be passive, and would prefer to keep it that way to suppliment their most decidedly non-pve activities. Many of these people, especially non-fw lowsec groups, would sooner go to null or w-space than be forced to mine or do PVE activities to suppliment their income. The idea of any of them running mining operations in lowsec, let alone the meat grinder of FW space, is one of the grossest misunderstandings of player behavior since Incarna. It will NOT end well for anyone involved. If this is going to come to pass as-advertised, then let me make a little suggestion: Add d-scan immunity to the porpoise and the skiff. Giving lowsec and nullsec mining operations some decent counterplay is going to be essential if you're putting the burden of AN ENTIRE SECTION OF THE ECONOMY into active gameplay with a fat load of risk involved, where it was passive before. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of player behavior in regards to how the t2 economy works with moon goo. You may not have noticed, but disrupting the passive mining of moongoo and changing the way that part of the economy works is deliberate and intended. They're not going to try to preserve much, if anything of the status quo.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2745
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Posted - 2017.03.22 16:38:36 -
[10] - Quote
Liira Savlin wrote:That's my point. The stability of moongoo up until now is what has helped make the t2 economy viable. If they do this without any support to passive moon mining or mining counterplay, the majority of the lowsec moon mining is going to get abandoned.
The current alliances who rely on passive moongoo mining will have difficulty and need to adapt, yes. This is a good thing; all "iceberg" organizations should die, preferably while on fire and screaming.
We at Goonswarm Federation, noted dead lowsec alliance, have adapted. Why haven't you and yours?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2745
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Posted - 2017.03.22 16:44:36 -
[11] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote: Give each moon a bit of everything but so that everyone has the ability to get the high end goo that currently is so heavily controlled by the big alliances.
Considering that the new system requires active harvest, I'm guessing a LOT of R64 moons, especially in lowsec, are about to come up for grabs, considering that they're mostly held by On-Rails-Arcade-Shooter-phile iceberg alliances currently. Perhaps you and yours can snag one?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2746
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Posted - 2017.03.22 16:52:15 -
[12] - Quote
Tetsel wrote:CCPls: What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ? What about Siphons ?
Thx
Here's a relevant quote from Fozzie:
CCP Fozzie [23:52] more people have asked me about siphons in the last hour than have used siphons in the past week :slightly_smiling_face:
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2748
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Posted - 2017.03.22 17:11:06 -
[13] - Quote
Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy.
In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle.
However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2748
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Posted - 2017.03.22 17:11:54 -
[14] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:Querns wrote:Rainus Max wrote: Give each moon a bit of everything but so that everyone has the ability to get the high end goo that currently is so heavily controlled by the big alliances.
Considering that the new system requires active harvest, I'm guessing a LOT of R64 moons, especially in lowsec, are about to come up for grabs, considering that they're mostly held by On-Rails-Arcade-Shooter-phile iceberg alliances currently. Perhaps you and yours can snag one? Given it also requires me to either ninja mine from someone else's belt or to drop a refinery of my own i doubt I'll get much or ever get on top of Dyspro moon any time soon.
Oh no, you may need to have infrastructure. Heaven forbid!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2752
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Posted - 2017.03.22 17:52:51 -
[15] - Quote
Lunarstorm95 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I love this, mainly because of all the tears from "passive income elites" who are now going to chase to either be poor OR (*GASP*) make room in their elite PVP only alliances/coaltions for dirty dirty Mining guys they will need protecting.
Did I mention that I love this? Yeah ur gana love this until you realize you will be mining weekly only for all ur moon roids to be going to the alliance, alliance is not gana let you keep the goo.... Alliance is not gana spend money on the fuel and refinery only to launch the roids into space and let the miners take what they can mine and go spend it on more crystals... alliance will need all the money it can get from the rocks to supplement srp and infrastructure costs. Even more so since it wont be able to mine nearly as many moons as they do now, so it will need every isk from the moon meaning you wont be getting a decent, if any, cut.
Maybe your alliance won't let you keep the goo from refineries.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2754
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Posted - 2017.03.22 18:00:34 -
[16] - Quote
Duncan McClain wrote: Also, just wanted to point out that Querns is on fire today.
I try.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2755
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Posted - 2017.03.22 18:47:05 -
[17] - Quote
Lunarstorm95 wrote:Querns wrote:Lunarstorm95 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I love this, mainly because of all the tears from "passive income elites" who are now going to chase to either be poor OR (*GASP*) make room in their elite PVP only alliances/coaltions for dirty dirty Mining guys they will need protecting.
Did I mention that I love this? Yeah ur gana love this until you realize you will be mining weekly only for all ur moon roids to be going to the alliance, alliance is not gana let you keep the goo.... Alliance is not gana spend money on the fuel and refinery only to launch the roids into space and let the miners take what they can mine and go spend it on more crystals... alliance will need all the money it can get from the rocks to supplement srp and infrastructure costs. Even more so since it wont be able to mine nearly as many moons as they do now, so it will need every isk from the moon meaning you wont be getting a decent, if any, cut. Maybe your alliance won't let you keep the goo from refineries. My point, alliance like goons can live without it, this patch is great for the big super bloc alliances, kills small/med alliances.
How so? Tons of R64s are going to go up for grabs. There's no way the tiny iceberg alliances have the manpower to exploit them.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2758
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Posted - 2017.03.22 20:57:45 -
[18] - Quote
mkint wrote:Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome!
So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2760
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Posted - 2017.03.22 23:06:19 -
[19] - Quote
Lunarstorm95 wrote:Querns wrote:mkint wrote:Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome! So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse? I don't know what you don't get... in theory maybe but no one will be able to harvest them in enough capacity to matter.....
Considering we don't know how big the exploded asteroids will be or what their yield will be, I fail to see how you can possibly know this.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2760
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Posted - 2017.03.22 23:07:54 -
[20] - Quote
Hoshi wrote:Querns wrote:mkint wrote:Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome! So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse? I do see a future where several of the large blocks like PL and Goons actively going around with their supers and killing drilling refineries just to stop others from gaining utilizing those moons that they don't want to use themselves.
If this was going to happen, we'd already be doing it. POS are quite a stitch easier to take out, and require far fewer folks to exploit once owned.
The idea that we'd somehow start doing this after the process is changed to take longer and require several orders of magnitude more manpower is uniquely insane.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2760
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Posted - 2017.03.22 23:09:13 -
[21] - Quote
Leo Augustus wrote:Moons won't be "freed up." It's just more tedium to extract the goodies.
Anyone planning on taking a fleet of hulks into PL space to mine under their cit's guns, nm their fleet?
Sign me up for that.. lol.
Moons will be "freed up" in the sense that it makes zero sense to pay fuel every month to hold a moon that you lack the manpower to exploit.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2760
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Posted - 2017.03.22 23:10:37 -
[22] - Quote
ITTigerClawIK wrote:I think large alliances have just gotten WAY to used to such huge amounts of no effort passive income from some of the comments in here XD Agreed. Nerf the big alliances!
Hrm, wait...
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2761
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Posted - 2017.03.23 00:16:05 -
[23] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:WTF is Fozzie doing.
You do realise this is a game right? You do realise people sign in to escape horrible ******* mudane interactions with work, wives and kids....
**** this game I so looking forward to this and left incredibly disappointed. Your also feeding the ******* goats in high sec who can IsBox the hell out of their clients and make easy quick risk free wins. Let's all just be ******* gankers.
You do realize that none of the mining stuff in this devblog is going to be in highsec, right? All highsec gets from this is a reprocessing structure.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2762
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Posted - 2017.03.23 04:14:37 -
[24] - Quote
Leo Augustus wrote:Querns wrote:Leo Augustus wrote:Moons won't be "freed up." It's just more tedium to extract the goodies.
Anyone planning on taking a fleet of hulks into PL space to mine under their cit's guns, nm their fleet?
Sign me up for that.. lol.
Moons will be "freed up" in the sense that it makes zero sense to pay fuel every month to hold a moon that you lack the manpower to exploit. We have hostile cits and pos's dropped in our space simply to generate content on the off chance that the deploying force has the peeps online to defend. Often they don't and it dies without a fight. I wouldn't count on rational thought dictating behavior
Sure, dropping the odd structure to provoke folks is one thing, but the idea that we or PL or anyone would simply drop structures on every money moon, especially outside our/their immediate tantrum radius, for no gain, is simply absurd. That shit costs money.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2762
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Posted - 2017.03.23 04:15:42 -
[25] - Quote
FeMalogalotalotim wrote:Quote: The Mining Ledger
With all this new activity around the moons of New Eden, the corporations claiming the moons will need new tools for tracking whatGÇÖs going on in their territory. The mining ledger is the new open-ended tool for Refinery owners to keep track of who is mining in their belt. Remove that **** option and it will be ok i think. Otherwise all the big alliances will simply use smaller players to make money for them, i.e. more money and less work.
Not going to happen. In order to make it worthwhile to actually drop these things, tracking is needed.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2762
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Posted - 2017.03.23 04:16:44 -
[26] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:Let's make the game even duller than it already is by now making people mine instead of PVP enjoying the beautiful parts of the game, instead treat eve like your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th job...
So don't mine if you don't want to mine?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2762
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Posted - 2017.03.23 04:18:25 -
[27] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:This suggestion doesn't even come close to gaming style and personas. Do some research and you'll see people who play MMORGP's want to do things solo and in small groups... When will Fozzie learn this?
I am pretty sure you can mine in small groups. You can also shoot miners in small groups.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2766
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Posted - 2017.03.23 11:43:21 -
[28] - Quote
SonofSilence wrote:Since you took down my first post, I will repost.
CCP and Dev Team....QUIT GAYING UP EVE PLEASE. Thanks!
Get rid of plex and free to play.
EVE is supposed to be hard.
If you want easy, go play World of Warcraft.
Ooh, I gotta know -- why should CCP get rid of PLEX? :allears:
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2767
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Posted - 2017.03.23 13:29:39 -
[29] - Quote
h4kun4 wrote: It might kill SRP, especially of smaller entities or Lowsec entities. - Buff to large nullsec Alliances It might render Lowsec mooning pointless because seriously - who mines in Lowsec? - Buff to large nullsec alliances
Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now, in anticipation of this change. The signs have been there for years; you just have to think a little further out from where your next Level 5 mission or travelling supercap gank comes from.
From all the apoplectic posting here and from without, it seems like lowsec entities have the adaptability of my last bowel movement.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2768
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Posted - 2017.03.23 13:45:02 -
[30] - Quote
sgtdale wrote:the end of the pos is near
hail satan
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2768
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Posted - 2017.03.23 13:53:30 -
[31] - Quote
Edek Hawker wrote: If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)
Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2770
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Posted - 2017.03.23 15:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
h4kun4 wrote:Querns wrote:
Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now.
Well you can talk easy with 20k Chars in alliance and enough dronelike people who can bear mining ops for hours but i left nullsec because of that. Mindnumbing Boredom while (not) making isk and Aegis Sov. But that were the Saranen times in early summer... Also, how much ISK in reserves does your alliance have? something between +1t and +10t?
This comment is pretty telling, because the underlying assumption here is that moongoo = SRP. This is incorrect; income = SRP. Moongoo is only one form of income. It's certainly the easiest from an administrative point of view (especially if you're like 99% of non-GSF moonhavers and are terrible at the market,) but it's only one form.
You can fund an alliance without gangpressing folks into mining. We're certainly not going to gangpress anyone into mining the stuff that comes out of refineries. Heck, I'm not even 100% sure if we're going to erect any in our space.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2770
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Posted - 2017.03.23 15:34:58 -
[33] - Quote
Edek Hawker wrote:Querns wrote:Edek Hawker wrote: If CCP only removes the ice products requirement from T3 reactions but leaves them on the rest I would be completely satisfied... see I can compromise. :)
Considering T3 reactions burn ice in the form of POS fuel currently, no, there's no chance that it would be removed. Oh? So the refinery will NOT be using fuel blocks *sarcasm Please try again goon...
Sure.
Since reactions are a RAM activity, a single facility can perform a number of reactions approaching infinity. (Cost index goes here.) Because of this, you don't need to erect a tower for each gas reaction (or pair,) you just need one. This drastically reduces the fuel cost of running any kind of reaction, be it WH gas or otherwise.
To keep the use of ice from plummeting, all reactions must include some ice usage.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2771
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Posted - 2017.03.23 16:03:55 -
[34] - Quote
Leo Augustus wrote:I don't like it.
It's not realistic.
This is a video game.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2772
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Posted - 2017.03.23 16:06:14 -
[35] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:A set of new Upwell Structures is in the works: Behold the Upwell Refineries! Refineries will be the premiere structure for resource collection and processing. They have bonuses to reprocessing and the exclusive ability to fit moon mining and reaction service modules.This will give us completely new gameplay for moon mining and reactions, as well as linking into future resource collection gameplay. Check out the exciting details in this blog Introducing Upwell Refineries Posted this somewhere else but i'll put it here so you see it: Quote: This seems pretty easy right, heres a simple fix that makes this viable:
The entire time its dragging its chunk of moon up that it fracked off, its vulnerable. If you knock a miner into its final timer any fracking gravity drag move stops.
Look at me, I'm a ducking genius.
Single point conflict restored, moon mining is a bottom up process that its meant to be and we don't all have to **** around with AUTZ timer spam.
Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.
You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2772
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Posted - 2017.03.23 16:07:10 -
[36] - Quote
sgtdale wrote: Picking my pocket automagically would be fine if it also automagically gets my ganked mining ship and fit replaced out of the pocket of the owner of the moon fracking thing..........
It can; most folks call it "SRP."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2772
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Posted - 2017.03.23 16:10:46 -
[37] - Quote
h4kun4 wrote:Well, ok, moongoo isnt the only source of income thats true, but its a major one, the problem with income in lowsec is that its simpy hard to get in masses like nullsec can.
Tax don't get you anywhere since you earn money with loot from people, plexes or with LP and not with bounties. Anomalies and sigs are spawning lucky and yield poor raw isk in lowsec. In null you can at least count on some income from Tax and maybe even renters. The two greatest ways of passive income are moonimining and reaction farms and both will be different, maybe reactionfarms on citadel will be wothwhile.
It's almost like they're trying to get rid of passive income.
It's hilarious how bad you guys (read: the rest of eve) are at finance. It's not even complicated. The tiny possibility space you're putting out there is just :shobon: as all hell.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2777
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Posted - 2017.03.23 17:12:15 -
[38] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Querns wrote: Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.
You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.
We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended'
Man, you guys must have hated Dominion sov if you can't handle three or more timers for a thing.
Given the rate that your alliance (and others) slaughter rorquals in our space, one would think you'd see the fight potential in these things.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2779
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Posted - 2017.03.23 18:03:46 -
[39] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Querns wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Querns wrote: Nah. Just don't be lazy and you'll be fine.
You guys even have an AUTZ corp--- oh, wait, no.
We're actually pulling 100+ guys for most AUTZ ops after Dansara spent a few months rebuilding it, the point of my post is to keep the moon miner viable as a fight generator and avoid the stupidity that comes from the current garbage of '3 timers and a week of time for a citadel with no fuel in it at all thats not defended' Man, you guys must have hated Dominion sov if you can't handle three or more timers for a thing. Given the rate that your alliance (and others) slaughter rorquals in our space, one would think you'd see the fight potential in these things. The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active. The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk'
The structure will end up immune? I am pretty sure they'll have vulnerability timers, just like other Upwell structures.
"At an inconvenient time for you" isn't the same as "immune."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2779
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Posted - 2017.03.23 18:39:13 -
[40] - Quote
Advenat Bedala wrote:Will Rorqual be able to mine moonmats?
*Please say no!*
The chances of this being the case are pretty slim. Why revamp the rorq at all if you don't let it be eligible for the new shiny?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2780
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Posted - 2017.03.23 19:36:38 -
[41] - Quote
Gaius Clabbacus wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:The POTENTIAL is there, but, given current citadel tactics everybody is simply going to put these to down time for vulnerability and at best you'll be ganking miners while its active.
The structure itself will end up entirely immune, which sucks because like or not hitting a moon miners is a fairly huge part in nullsec warfare, its one of those things that allow smaller entities to harass larger entities in a meaningful way, not just 'lol ganked ur hulk' Heartwarming to see that the mega-alliances still care for the little guy and are not just arguing for their self-interest.
It is quite disingenuous to see him campaigning for a change that would let his alliance more easily destroy the infrastructure of a smaller alliance, isn't it?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2780
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Posted - 2017.03.23 19:55:06 -
[42] - Quote
zluq zabaa wrote:1. Moon Mining is not passive income. Whoever says that must have a grave misconception of what it means to be passive. Doing a lot of hauling (fuel, goo to market) for some 200M profit per month on a regular R16 moon is not passive by any means. You are probably putting equally or more active time in that, than AFK mining in Null or HighSec for 200M.
The income is about as passive as it gets. If you have even a glimmer of ability to optimize things, you can avoid touching a moon miner for a month or more. The size of the income so generated doesn't make the income less passive. Nice try cherry picking a dumb example, by the way.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2780
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Posted - 2017.03.23 20:05:32 -
[43] - Quote
zluq zabaa wrote:Querns wrote:zluq zabaa wrote:1. Moon Mining is not passive income. Whoever says that must have a grave misconception of what it means to be passive. Doing a lot of hauling (fuel, goo to market) for some 200M profit per month on a regular R16 moon is not passive by any means. You are probably putting equally or more active time in that, than AFK mining in Null or HighSec for 200M.
The income is about as passive as it gets. If you have even a glimmer of ability to optimize things, you can avoid touching a moon miner for a month or more. The size of the income so generated doesn't make the income less passive. Nice try cherry picking a dumb example, by the way. It is only a dumb example if you're speaking from the perspective of someone who is thinking in numbers of 20,40, 100 moons, because you have the possibilities to run as many. Touching it "once a month" doesn't make it more passive than undocking "once a month" to rat for 200M or mine for 200M with equal or less time involved.
Again, you're cherry picking a low-value example to try and pretend like moon mining isn't passive. The passive or active nature of income is completely unrelated to the magnitude of income so generated.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2781
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Posted - 2017.03.23 20:39:14 -
[44] - Quote
zluq zabaa wrote: First, as I've shown you and you fail to find any counter-argument: Moon mining is not passive.
Today's moon mining is extremely passive. You do a thing once a month. Putting up buy orders and sell orders is not strenuous.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2781
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Posted - 2017.03.23 20:45:39 -
[45] - Quote
Leo Augustus wrote:At least with plex available in much smaller chunks, you might be able to just activate your mining alts for a few days at a time to mop up big goo piles, just seems SOOO tedious and unnecessary.
This is not the case; read the follow up blog. Game time will not be available in chunks smaller than 30 days.
I'm not sure why so many people think this. It was never going to happen, and is in fact not happening.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2781
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Posted - 2017.03.23 20:50:27 -
[46] - Quote
Common misconceptions ITT seem to revolve around the idea that individual players will be FORCED into mining by their alliance. This stems from the enshrined belief that moongoo = SRP. It doesn't; income = SRP. Moongoo is just one form of income. If your alliance is worth anything at all, they'll find new ways to fund SRP. If they can't, and SRP is important to you, consider a change.
Likewise, if your alliance tries to force you to mine, consider leaving. Democracy is omnipresent in Eve Online, but you have to vote with your feet, rather than with a ballot pen.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2782
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Posted - 2017.03.23 21:30:40 -
[47] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Querns wrote:Common misconceptions ITT seem to revolve around the idea that individual players will be FORCED into mining by their alliance. This stems from the enshrined belief that moongoo = SRP. It doesn't; income = SRP. Moongoo is just one form of income. If your alliance is worth anything at all, they'll find new ways to fund SRP. If they can't, and SRP is important to you, consider a change.
Likewise, if your alliance tries to force you to mine, consider leaving. Democracy is omnipresent in Eve Online, but you have to vote with your feet, rather than with a ballot pen. Can't wait for people whining about mining CTA tho. We know it will happen in some corp/alliance.
Probably true. Garbage organizations are everywhere.
oh shit we're in one right nooooow
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.23 22:16:57 -
[48] - Quote
Fish Hunter wrote:Punctator wrote:[quote=Nevyn Auscent]
eve should be more haotic not less it is because of the bunch of people wanting to control every aspect of this game - this game actualy sucks because they succed in thair plans completly. It must end or this game is dead, only a toy in hands of few very mighty people.
Yup better make it so max of 200 characters per alliance and fleet and lets do away with any kind of standings overlay outside of alliance. Lets make it so hard mechanically to blue anyone that nobody would want to. Then we'll have a chaotic EVE
Fine by me; we have a workaround for no standings.
Why do you think CCP added the ability to set folks blue in the first place?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.23 22:24:36 -
[49] - Quote
Fish Hunter wrote:Querns wrote:
Why do you think CCP added the ability to set folks blue in the first place?
I do not know, always assumed coalitions in space Nope.
https://eveinfo.net/wiki/index~25.htm
You can use a portrait pack to differentiate between hostiles and friendlies. Groups with a portrait pack have a distinct advantage over those without, so CCP added standings to even the playing field.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.23 22:34:39 -
[50] - Quote
Punctator wrote:Querns wrote:Fish Hunter wrote:Punctator wrote:[quote=Nevyn Auscent]
eve should be more haotic not less it is because of the bunch of people wanting to control every aspect of this game - this game actualy sucks because they succed in thair plans completly. It must end or this game is dead, only a toy in hands of few very mighty people.
Yup better make it so max of 200 characters per alliance and fleet and lets do away with any kind of standings overlay outside of alliance. Lets make it so hard mechanically to blue anyone that nobody would want to. Then we'll have a chaotic EVE Fine by me; we have a workaround for no standings. Why do you think CCP added the ability to set folks blue in the first place? i dont think they predict how large player structures will become. I think they do same mistakes calculating titans costs and now we have tones of titans. Mittani and others "lords" are the REAL cancer of this game. This game is realy the only one i know when new players are so awefull harased by old and mighty. There cant be something new in eve, because old "lords" may lose thair position, so lets destroy all using big toys from passive income or total control of t2 market. This is what realy brings eve to stagnation. CCP is just stupid but they learned somethink so who knows it may change.
Link your freighter lossmail.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.23 23:14:05 -
[51] - Quote
Sky Marshal wrote:Querns wrote:zluq zabaa wrote: First, as I've shown you and you fail to find any counter-argument: Moon mining is not passive.
Today's moon mining is extremely passive. You do a thing once a month. Putting up buy orders and sell orders is not strenuous. I really wonder how you make it work for a month, because even with a Gallente tower, I don't manage to get this number. Depending of the reaction, it can go between 11 days to a month (if you are happy with *Carbide reactions)... But it will be inefficient because it means more towers for each reaction, so more fuel and so less profit. And as you are in a big alliance, you can afford to fill the import silos fully. A small alliance or an individual would take too much risk to do that, fill more than a week of raw products could be really dangerous because any attack would mean a big amount of ISK lost. With a standard Caldari duo, you get more money because less fuel. But you need to go back each 4 days to retrieve the final reaction, as the silos can't store more than that. And if you don't want to take too much risks, one week of raws maximum. So it is not so passive that you claim. It is passive for goons (and other big alliances). Rowells wrote:zluq zabaa wrote:Moon mining is not passive. So when you warp away or log off for the night, the moon harvester turns off? Income generation halts? If we follow this logic, market orders are passive income. CCP should nerf them.
Reactions are not the same thing as moon mining.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.23 23:30:49 -
[52] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Obsidian Blacke wrote: The rocks don't belong to their corp. You can't own a rock....man.
And nowhere have I said that they 'own' the rocks. The problem is without people going suspect they take a standings penalty for shooting someone to protect something they made. Because at the end of the day the asteroids for moon mining are actually player made. They put up a structure, keep it fueled & defended in order to get the field. So they should be able to defend it without being penalised with standing losses in low sec for shooting ships. All the suspect status does is eliminate the standing penalty, well, and stop people fleeing into high sec and suddenly becoming immune 2 seconds later.
You know, you finally had an idea that I agree with. I think that CCP should allow lowsec refinery havers to shoot thieves without a security status penalty. Keying it to the ACL works great.
I fear that it won't happen, though; it's a tall order, technically speaking.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.24 00:21:46 -
[53] - Quote
zluq zabaa wrote: There is no passive income.
Today's moon miners work while you're logged out. It's passive income.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
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Posted - 2017.03.24 00:48:22 -
[54] - Quote
zluq zabaa wrote:Querns wrote:zluq zabaa wrote: There is no passive income.
Today's moon miners work while you're logged out. It's passive income. If you qoute me be fair enough to quote my entire text in which I explain why it is not passive. Again: If you shoot a rat and it does not die immediately while you press your button, but you have to wait for your guns to cycle a few times - in your logic that would be passive income. Same for market orders, as someone else said: you would consider them passive income as well. As soon as you need to do something in order to get something, you are not passive. But I understand that you neither can or want to follow up on that logic, because you just repeat the very same thing over and over again without being able to counter argue. You've made your point often enough, you're not interested in discussion. Please stop spamming, thanks.
You're splitting hairs for no gain. Moon mining is passive income. It just is.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2783
|
Posted - 2017.03.24 00:49:45 -
[55] - Quote
Sky Marshal wrote:Querns wrote:Reactions are not the same thing as moon mining. In an another note, I don't understand why the devblog mentions that some ice products will be required for reactions in the future. If it is really to compensate for the lower global fuel consumption, why not simply make the refinery modules use a big amount of fuel per hour ? If it remains like this, this requirement can help to reduce the impact on the price of ice products, but not for PI products who will go down.
A single refinery will be able to host an arbitrarily large number of reaction RAM jobs for a static fuel cost. If there isn't a small amount of ice cost in a reaction, ice will slide further down the toilet as the massive usage from reaction POS evaporates.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2784
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Posted - 2017.03.24 01:24:30 -
[56] - Quote
Leo Augustus wrote: That's what I'm not getting.. Why not just limit the refineries to 1-3 reactions depending on fit, rigs, etc very much like small medium and large POS's are now
and require them to be the only one anchored in vicinity to a moon (blank or harvestable) with similar fuel requirements.
That would at least keep the reaction market largely as is, which I've really not heard anyone complaining about. It also might prevent massive distruption to t2 industry.
I surrender on physically mining the moon goo. I don't agree, but I surrender.
Call me CCP, we can shake on it
Refineries are significantly more expensive than POS. Do you really want to be on the hook for a structure several times the cost of a POS, that need to be rigged to be able to do things with any efficacy, for every reaction you want to do?
Including ice in the reaction blueprint maintains the ice use without requiring a hideous amount of outlay (and the majority of that outlay being non-recoverable.) It also adds a PLEX cost to reactions in the form of the PLEX needed to keep reaction alts alive. Today's reactor farms can be serviced by two accounts for a (theoretically) arbitrarily large farm. (Effort limits and system moon count notwithstanding.)
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2784
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Posted - 2017.03.24 01:39:40 -
[57] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Querns wrote:Leo Augustus wrote: That's what I'm not getting.. Why not just limit the refineries to 1-3 reactions depending on fit, rigs, etc very much like small medium and large POS's are now
and require them to be the only one anchored in vicinity to a moon (blank or harvestable) with similar fuel requirements.
That would at least keep the reaction market largely as is, which I've really not heard anyone complaining about. It also might prevent massive distruption to t2 industry.
I surrender on physically mining the moon goo. I don't agree, but I surrender.
Call me CCP, we can shake on it
Refineries are significantly more expensive than POS. Do you really want to be on the hook for a structure several times the cost of a POS, that need to be rigged to be able to do things with any efficacy, for every reaction you want to do? Including ice in the reaction blueprint maintains the ice use without requiring a hideous amount of outlay (and the majority of that outlay being non-recoverable.) It also adds a PLEX cost to reactions in the form of the PLEX needed to keep reaction alts alive. Today's reactor farms can be serviced by two accounts for a (theoretically) arbitrarily large farm. (Effort limits and system moon count notwithstanding.) Where does the plex get inserted into the refinery? I am confused. It doesn't go into the refinery, it goes into the subscriptions of the alts you use to start reaction industry jobs.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2785
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Posted - 2017.03.24 02:42:55 -
[58] - Quote
Leo Augustus wrote:I would rather invest the isk in refineries for each reaction even i they cost 3x as much as a large faction pos.... unless the rigs are disgusting
But as a general proposition, I'd pay or the refineries because I can scale up to 20 or 30 reactions on one toon.
Each morning I warp to all my towers and collect my reactions. It's the high point of my day unless we go on a roam and I fall bass ackward into a nice kill.
Right after collecting my reactions I start cycling through PI alts necesary to ffuel the towers. Log in, log out, in, out, in, out.. my smile fades and I hate my eve life.
I mean, it's a little more exciting t multi box industry... trying to time all your component builds to end at the same time on each toon so u can move on to ships, but even that gets old.
Now I think about having to cycle through at least 3 alts simply to run reactions and I'm really in a funk.
With POS on moons that have to be fueled, filled, emptied, onlined, offlined, all that... you're pretty much committed to developing a plan and running it or at least a week. 8.3 days in my case. In that time, prices fluctuate wildy.
Maybe now my mid level reactions are so valuable I rush them to hs. Maybe they tanked hard and I'm best off stashing it away as an input in a future reaction or saving for a t2 build.
Once reactions are moved into the standard industry interface, that all goes away. If I want to build an ishtar, instead of maximizing profit by building my own components, I automatically am going to go all the way back to buying base moon mats and running reaction one, reaction two, components, ships.
You'll buy the precise amounts spreadsheet says you need and the production process becomes far more tedious. Not more interesting, more complex, more risky... just flat out redundant.
So, for basic t2 production, you're running invention slots, copy slots, industry slots, and now refining slots? All for mods that under-perform faction built out of tritanium?
If there's a compelling reason to put reaction runners out of business, I'm all ears... seriously. I just hate to see a cool niche profession flushed for no compelling reason. I don't have expertise in drug manu, but I suspect that becomes a station spinning job farmed to alts now as well.
Man, you are a monument to objectively incorrect Eve playing. "High point of my day." Amazing.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2785
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Posted - 2017.03.24 12:07:32 -
[59] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery? A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.
I probably should just come to expect this, but I'm quite happy to see attention continuing to be paid in regards to capital docking. This is a great compromise.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2786
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Posted - 2017.03.24 13:25:08 -
[60] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Rowells wrote:zluq zabaa wrote:Moon mining is not passive. So when you warp away or log off for the night, the moon harvester turns off? Income generation halts? pretty much similar to market orders not hiding when you log off, industry jobs don't pause, sp farming doesnt pause when you are offline, if it was a true passive income then isk would just go straight into the wallet without any work after the initial setup.
Splitting hairs. Don't be willfully obtuse.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2789
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Posted - 2017.03.24 17:42:25 -
[61] - Quote
Lunarstorm95 wrote:Querns wrote:Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy. In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle. However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed. Im interested in what a goon has to say about this, how does a med/small alliance that doesn't have a full mining wing expected to mine several moons, enough to keep up with SRP and infrastructure/fuel cost? Alliances like goons are gana benefit so much from this patch, you can hardly say "Even I, a goon, think this should happen"
With alternate sources of funding.
Goonswarm Federation, currently, uses 0% of its money earned via moongoo for SRP. I know, because I'm the guy who turns all the moongoo we mine into cash, and I am the one who decides how that particular chunk of money is spent. None of it goes to SRP.
If we, the least capable and worst alliance in Eve Online: Noted Space-themed Spreadsheet, can manage it, so should you and yours.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2789
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Posted - 2017.03.24 20:34:13 -
[62] - Quote
HarlyQ wrote:Start stockpiling moon materials boys because people in lowsec wont mine moons anywhere near as much as current POS mechanic.
What, you think we won't make up the difference?
You don't think YOU'LL make up the difference, alone? :V
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2789
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Posted - 2017.03.25 01:10:39 -
[63] - Quote
McBorsk wrote:We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. Let the chunks be completely random, with a higher chance of the good stuff if you have a large structure/t2 rig etc. If we don't all have to run to jita, that'd be great.
Nah. Regional moongoo is good, and gives highsec a chance to play.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2789
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Posted - 2017.03.25 11:21:28 -
[64] - Quote
zluq zabaa wrote:Mr Bowers wrote:Nothing ap force then NC and PL. With them letting people fight in the thunder dome they will have ton of peepons. I would say. Goons are doing a good job building up supers . They protect their miners for next year or so and will have a better c Lunarstorm95 wrote:Querns wrote:Hy Wanto Destroyer wrote:Also mr retardo goon ofc you are pushing for this because it prolly benefits goons massively and alot of nullsec allainces , youre able to tax moons and tax renters so all the nullsec miners are jumping with joy. In strictly money-making terms, no, I'd much rather have passive moon mining. It's much, much easier to handle. However, I still support these changes. Speaking as someone who has, historically, benefited the most from passive alliance-level income, it MUST be removed. Im interested in what a goon has to say about this, how does a med/small alliance that doesn't have a full mining wing expected to mine several moons, enough to keep up with SRP and infrastructure/fuel cost? Alliances like goons are gana benefit so much from this patch, you can hardly say "Even I, a goon, think this should happen" Querns even admits it. He profited in the past and now he doesn't want anyone else to profit the same way he had.
Many, many people have profited from passive moongoo mining. I said that because, out of everyone in the game, we have the most to lose from this change, yet we champion it anyway.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2789
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Posted - 2017.03.25 11:22:55 -
[65] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Marcus Tedric wrote: If everyone was self-sufficient - there would be no reason at all for anything more than meaningless and frivolous pretend combat. War is driven by economics.
With logistics in EVE so easy - if no one needed to go to Jita, HS would pretty much collapse.
Unless you know, HS actually got it's own self sufficiency. Because right now, Null is the only self sufficient area in the game since CCP gave it all the low ends, breaking their own idea of interdependent areas. The only issue Null currently faces is the fact moon minerals are regional, and that's always been bad design and is likely to change at some stage.
Incorrect -- nullsec is quite reliant on highsec for mexallon, foreign ice, and faction loot (and deadspace loot via central market hubs) as well.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2790
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Posted - 2017.03.25 18:24:52 -
[66] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:Is it possible to have moon mineral resources depleat and respawn in other locations over an extremely slow progression. Ie a planet will replenish x mineral over a period over time, representing the advancement of technology able to extract out of previous useless places. Ie now we are able to extract oil out of tar pits, and fracking of old wells. Also the crashing of asteroids into the moons, like PI but slow growth rates and larger deposits to mine.
Will the refineries have to scan the surface like PI to pull up sections of moon to mine?
This will keep the map in transition for the giants, and leave open space for smaller groups. IE Goons mine out cloud ring moons completely of r16 minerals and decide to move to delve just to feed their industrial engine. 6 months later they move back cloud ring once the moons have replenished, unless the local who moved in kept the moons depleted to prevent their moons from becoming attractive.
Also can refineries be able to jump. So after 1 moon is empty it can take 1 week to prep the station to jump. This would once again allow limited nomadic life style.
The idea that we'd follow moon goo like this is fantasy. We'd just stay put and wait for the moongoo to come back, if your vignette was made real.
Moongoo just isn't that important to income any more.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2790
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Posted - 2017.03.25 22:37:45 -
[67] - Quote
SIEGE RED wrote:Querns wrote: The idea that we'd follow moon goo like this is fantasy. We'd just stay put and wait for the moongoo to come back, if your vignette was made real.
Moongoo just isn't that important to income any more.
Nah, you wouldn't if CCP ever were to do it properly. Nah. Moving sucks, and moongoo is too unimportant.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2790
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Posted - 2017.03.26 01:44:06 -
[68] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:Didn't see you answer the question about, have you replaced a relatively dull part of the game with an even duller part of the game? Yup
I mean, at least now you'll be able to participate in the T2 game, rather than having your masters do it all off of your backs.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2790
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Posted - 2017.03.26 12:19:07 -
[69] - Quote
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:I have a question on booster production in particular. Previously, the best way to be involved in Booster production was via wormhole space. You open wormholes to the various nullsec gas constellations or regions and gas huff. It is very much within the Explorer characters' skill set to huff gas and so booster production and T3 production tends to be close on the extraction end as it requires the same skill set.
Will these refineries be used in:
1. Booster production 2. T3 production
So far, from what I've read, Refineries will NOT be available in wormhole space (despite the fact that currently, pos's are).
How are we supposed to work gas clouds and turn them into T3 materials and/or booster gas clouds and turn those into drug manufacturing in wormhole space (after pulling it back out from nullsec) if this is being denied to us to use these structures?
They'll be available in WH space, and you'll be able to do reprocessing and reactions in them as normal.
The only feature that won't be available in WH space is the bit that mines moons.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2790
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Posted - 2017.03.27 01:03:21 -
[70] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:Gevlin wrote:I think this will be interesting
Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.
I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.
And who exactly is going to have time to hunt when everyone will be mining? Ah, the wonderful sounds of yet another sap who thinks their alliance will FORCE them to mine. I love it. So many people have this intransigent belief moongoo = SRP and it's such a rigid association that they literally cannot conceive of another way to provide SRP.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2790
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Posted - 2017.03.27 01:04:19 -
[71] - Quote
Citika wrote:I see a few issues with this plan:
More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.
So don't mine if you don't want to mine, or don't have time to mine. You can safely pass this feature up; it'll be okay.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2791
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Posted - 2017.03.27 12:05:58 -
[72] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Querns wrote:Citika wrote:I see a few issues with this plan:
More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.
So don't mine if you don't want to mine, or don't have time to mine. You can safely pass this feature up; it'll be okay. So you don't think that null alliances/corps won't make mining ops compulsory under threat of punitive punishments? Just as some have mandatory pvp fleets, pve fleets will become mandatory as well to gather the belts. Mine or don't mine won't be an option unless you want to be (possibly) kicked.
Some might, yes. However, democracy is ever-present in eve; you vote with your feet. Don't stand for an alliance that would press-gang you to mine.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2791
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Posted - 2017.03.27 12:08:44 -
[73] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Citika wrote:I see a few issues with this plan:
More miners will be needed in Null just to mine these Moon belts. These moon belts are covered by refinery weapons, which makes them somewhat safer than normal belts, making them more attractive for fleet operations. At the same time though, Null will need more effort turned towards mining moon goo instead of fighting, roaming, or other actions which are the reason people play. Most people have lives outside the game, and popping on to Eve for two hours just to scoop up a belt does not sound like a lot of fun.
Balance issues aside for now, what this effectively means is that a much higher emphasis is placed on mining asteroid fields than before. In order to maximize profits, the field needs to be cleared ASAP in order to start hauling up another chunk, but between those mining efforts are either a long period of nothing for small organizations while the chunk rises, or constant mining for larger empires with multiple refineries pulling up multiple chunks.
The only people this really benefits are the massive nullsec empires who can organize massive fleets and multiboxers operating near their refinery. It does not always benefit smaller organizations, who might have their efforts stolen by organized mining incursions which can tank the refinery defenses (which I'm assuming are going to be similar to the Raitaru and Azbel). It does not benefit Wormholers, who now have to leave their holes for reactions. And it certainly does not help the economy (read Ratte's post above, he explained it better than I ever could).
Bolded and underlined the important part. The part that explains why Querns is so keen on these changes. Delve, the Drones Regions, other deep 0.0 will be fine. NPC Null, Low Sec, and accessible parts of 0.0 will suffer from these changes.
You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?
I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2791
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 12:26:06 -
[74] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:Querns wrote: You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?
I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income.
Pure ignorance again from your stupid goon... it remove top down income... NOPE still gonna generate top-level income from it; how you can't see this is beyond me.
I see that you don't understand the difference between top-down and bottom-up income. Why even join this conversation if you lack even a rudimentary command of finance?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2791
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Posted - 2017.03.27 12:27:15 -
[75] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:Querns wrote:ll Kuray ll wrote:Gevlin wrote:I think this will be interesting
Moving the old Tech II mining into active game play vs passive income should encourage more targets out on the field for PVP players.
I would like to see some work on the interaction of the mining process, allowing some interaction to increase yield vs just afk mining.
And who exactly is going to have time to hunt when everyone will be mining? Ah, the wonderful sounds of yet another sap who thinks their alliance will FORCE them to mine. I love it. So many people have this intransigent belief moongoo = SRP and it's such a rigid association that they literally cannot conceive of another way to provide SRP. Don't be so ignorant. This isn't anything to do with SRP you stupid goon.
I apologize, I forgot that being press-ganged into mining to fill the pockets of the embezzlers at the top of your organization would also be a thing. A grave omission on my part.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2792
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Posted - 2017.03.27 14:09:33 -
[76] - Quote
Ocean Ormand wrote:Iit seems to me that currently we likely have close to a 100% production from the valuable/useful moons. With the new system, it seems likely that the moons in lowsec will be abandoned/unmineable. Mining in lowsec is almost nonexistent now - it hardly seems likely that there are enough miners in the game that will be willing to relocate to lowsec to suddenly start mining in what has traditionally been a hostile environment to mining. If the lowsec moons are not farmed that may significantly reduce the available moon goo. In fact, are there even enough miners to do this at all? There are literally hundreds of different moons out there - can we really expect that folk are going to be rigorously attending all of these timed operations? How much mining will have to be done to obtain the same level of production that we currently have? If we cant achieve something close to the same level we will have shortages of t2 materials. Moreover this is a forced grind being added into the game - show up at this time every week and shoot x-number of rocks is as grindy as it gets. This seems to me something that only benefits the large alliances since they are the only ones that can sustain this sort of grinding in the long term.
You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.
With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2792
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Posted - 2017.03.27 14:16:56 -
[77] - Quote
Tribal Trogdor wrote:How is the transition going to be made from towers to refineries?
Obviously you can just release them and all the towers stop working. I would imagine there would have to be a period where they both work while the refineries are produced in the proper quantity or RIP economy.
If there's a tower on a moon currently, do those owners keep the right to mine the moon until either the tower dies or they put up a refinery?
What of POS replacement? I know they'll still hold relevance for sov stuff like jump bridges and such, but once they're off the table for moon mining and reactions, their value is going to go down the toilet. Is the plan to do NPC buy orders for them in the future, and if so, would they be based on the value at the time? Or maybe the plan is to turn them into their input material items? The latter would probably be a better way to go
. Main issue here is some people have tons of money tied up in reactions farms. They're going to want to liquidate what they have in towers, to buy refineries. And they're all going to want to do it at once because they have to keep things running/hold the moons until the day the new structures come out.
Hopefully, all the moon miners and reactors will just simply stop working on the release date.
There are significant stockpiles of moon minerals held by basically everyone with a brain. Those need to be drained. Having a hard cutoff will help that quite a bit.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2792
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 14:44:17 -
[78] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Querns wrote: There are significant stockpiles of moon minerals held by basically everyone with a brain. Those need to be drained. Having a hard cutoff will help that quite a bit.
itll take time to build the new structures tho. A cut off on the release date may not be good because of that.
No, that'll help accelerate the draining of stockpiles quite a bit.
You can pre-build comps and just install the refineries on day 1. The impact to reactors will be minimal. Stockpiles carry the week+ delay on raws through to maximum saturation.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2792
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Posted - 2017.03.27 15:26:29 -
[79] - Quote
SIEGE RED wrote:Querns wrote:
You're putting the cart before the horse here. Lowsec mining doesn't really occur today because there's nothing valuable to mine. Lowsec has no ihub-spawned mining anomalies, and the asteroids in their belts are pretty garbage. Asteroids in lowsec also deplete rapidly, like highsec, so there's a lot of moving involved.
With a static, replenishing belt provided by a refinery, there's less moving, more consistency, and more value. Unless there's some as-yet-unannounced interaction between refineries and security status (a thing I seriously doubt will happen,) a lowsec moongoo belt will be the peer of its nullsec brethren. There will be exactly as much impetus to mine a lowsec belt as there will a nullsec belt. Perhaps more, since bubbles and bombs can't interrupt the mining.
That's just one part of the picture. Keep in mind that not only are there easier ways to get resources, playstyles also differ quite a bit, and in lowsec there is no sense of control (fun to explore the existing playstyles / niches there, it all revolves around that) where it comes to mining.
There's no requirement for CCP to maintain the playstyles of folks living in any given area of space. If there was, nullsec wouldn't have changed nearly as much as it has.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2792
|
Posted - 2017.03.27 17:13:46 -
[80] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Querns wrote:You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?
I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income. I don't comment on whether something is a good idea based purely on self-interest. Yes, I know I could access Delve, that does not mean this is a net gain for Eve as a whole. "Join the largest group in the game" is not a good answer for anything. Farms and fields means the side with the least accessible fields and the most peasants always wins. This is preferable to having people run Incursion alts or something like that, but I don't like seeing NPC 0.0 and low sec get hurt so much. With Jump Freighters as they are, there is no real cost to being inaccessible. That should change, but that will also hurt smaller groups even more. There must be a better balancing point.
"Inaccessible?" Delve has NPC 0.0 stations, and bubbles were severely nerfed. Our space is the most accessible in the game.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2792
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Posted - 2017.03.27 17:20:31 -
[81] - Quote
SnakeTheBest wrote: what will happen to the solo moon operations?? there will be space for that too on the new mechanics? i know ppl that run maybe a couple of moons to do reactions for personal earnings, their buisness will be death then?
You'll still be able to do reactions alone. Moon mining can be, too, but not as effectively, since you'll have to undock to mine stuff.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2796
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Posted - 2017.03.27 18:48:43 -
[82] - Quote
Sassums wrote:Still no answer or clarification as to why ice products are being added to the list of resources for T3 production.....making WH space even less appealing....
You've found a way to run reactions in wormhole space without fuel, an item that takes ice to make? Wow! What's your secret?
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2803
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Posted - 2017.03.27 20:00:35 -
[83] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Querns wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Querns wrote:You do know that you have access to Delve's Elysian hunting grounds, yes?
I'm keen on these changes because they remove a huge source of top-down income. I am a staunch believer that nullsec should be about farms and fields, generating bottom-up income. I don't comment on whether something is a good idea based purely on self-interest. Yes, I know I could access Delve, that does not mean this is a net gain for Eve as a whole. "Join the largest group in the game" is not a good answer for anything. Farms and fields means the side with the least accessible fields and the most peasants always wins. This is preferable to having people run Incursion alts or something like that, but I don't like seeing NPC 0.0 and low sec get hurt so much. With Jump Freighters as they are, there is no real cost to being inaccessible. That should change, but that will also hurt smaller groups even more. There must be a better balancing point. "Inaccessible?" Delve has NPC 0.0 stations, and bubbles were severely nerfed. Our space is the most accessible in the game. I have lived in Delve several times. Yes, it has NPC stations. That is a good thing. I wish all 0.0 space had NPC stations nearby. It's not as bad as the Drones Regions, that's true. It is still a pain in the ass to jump into it. You are still relatively inaccessible compared with Tribute.
If your only metric for accessibility is "distance from Jita" then sure.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2816
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Posted - 2017.03.28 00:50:47 -
[84] - Quote
Baldin Tarmain wrote:Querns wrote:SnakeTheBest wrote: what will happen to the solo moon operations?? there will be space for that too on the new mechanics? i know ppl that run maybe a couple of moons to do reactions for personal earnings, their buisness will be death then?
You'll still be able to do reactions alone. Moon mining can be, too, but not as effectively, since you'll have to undock to mine stuff. I run 8 moons in Lo-Sec. Half my reaction materials come from mined moongoo. All the composites go into the market. Will I run 1..or 2 with the new mechanic? Maybe. How many independents like me are out there? If you have a stat that limits the impact to the economy I would like to see it. Not saying it's not there, just don't know. I run over 2 billion isk a week in composites. Are there a hundred like me? A thousand? How many will stop completely or severely curtail? I may move to other aspects of EvE. Nothing is an absolute, but I am independent because of who I am and what I'm capable of doing. I still do a little mining, and with that many POSs, I'm always bopping around, not docked all the time. Since the larger corps/Alliances will take down any Citadel/engineering platform when it comes out of reinforcement, the only way to anchor one is to "get lucky". Kind of sounds like EvE is becoming the land of Cattle Barons. Buy the hired guns and drive the sheep herders and farmers off the grazing land for the good of the town. (Which means their own good.) I begrudge no one the style they want to play, but don't belittle the small people. That's the rant for this evening.
You can run reactions without mining any moons at all. It's typically how I do them, when I'm in the High Effort phase of Eve Online: Noted Space-themed Spreadsheet.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2825
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Posted - 2017.03.28 10:49:02 -
[85] - Quote
DK52BS wrote:in regards of SRP programs... there hundreds of ways in Eve to earn ISK and establish a suitable SRP. We don't have any r64s and I must say that our SRP is very generous and it is working very well.
Preach it, brother. It's one thing for me to yell loudly at clouds about how to fund SRP programs, but quite another seeing another group actually getting it.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2825
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Posted - 2017.03.28 10:50:31 -
[86] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:I've seen some nice spins on trying to justify this idea the biggest being the removal of top-level income for alliances. My response to that is you're doing a good job at trying to frame it in your favor but it isn't with me and I can see right through it.
1. No matter what part of level you play Eve at you can always create top level afk income. I've seen alliances adopt a fee base income, I've seen alliance adopt ratting and mining ops where there is a certain quota of isk to generate and give to the alliance. I've seen alliance leaders rent out systems to corps I've seen alliance leaders rent out particular constellations I've seen alliances adopt a "pay us to keep you safe" model I've seen alliances own the good moons I've not seen many alliances cap moons that don't have materials to mine and done reactions
So really your argument about removing top level afk alliance income is fraud as there are other ways in which alliances generate their income.
Once you remove the sugar of the cool piece of rock that has been cut away from the moon, this is nothing but a mining operation that once again could be turned into AFK top level alliance income. Only this time more lemmings are required to be involved in meeting mind numbing mining quota's because apparently this will generate "more content"....
Get bent.
This isn't what "top-down income" means.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2828
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Posted - 2017.03.28 11:37:22 -
[87] - Quote
SIEGE RED wrote:Querns wrote:ll Kuray ll wrote:I've seen some nice spins on trying to justify this idea the biggest being the removal of top-level income for alliances. My response to that is you're doing a good job at trying to frame it in your favor but it isn't with me and I can see right through it.
1. No matter what part of level you play Eve at you can always create top level afk income. I've seen alliances adopt a fee base income, I've seen alliance adopt ratting and mining ops where there is a certain quota of isk to generate and give to the alliance. I've seen alliance leaders rent out systems to corps I've seen alliance leaders rent out particular constellations I've seen alliances adopt a "pay us to keep you safe" model I've seen alliances own the good moons I've not seen many alliances cap moons that don't have materials to mine and done reactions
So really your argument about removing top level afk alliance income is fraud as there are other ways in which alliances generate their income.
Once you remove the sugar of the cool piece of rock that has been cut away from the moon, this is nothing but a mining operation that once again could be turned into AFK top level alliance income. Only this time more lemmings are required to be involved in meeting mind numbing mining quota's because apparently this will generate "more content"....
Get bent.
This isn't what "top-down income" means. And yet it does not invalidate the observations. Nor the underlying reality. But he can rest assured, CCP isn't dumb, they know the game by now. Nobody recognises the #narratives as valid arguments. Which is fine, that's an entirely different arena being played for - the focus of all this is not only entirely different, it's focused on completely different things.
It does. He's trying to twist "top-down income" into "all alliance income." No one is arguing against the removal of alliance income, least of all me.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2828
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Posted - 2017.03.28 12:09:28 -
[88] - Quote
Doc J wrote:Querns wrote:This isn't what "top-down income" means. First time I've seen the thread but caught my eye on this, what does top-down income mean?
"Top-down" income refers to an alliance funding source that is collected solely by actors at the top of an organization, then is dispersed downwards onto line members. (Assuming it doesn't get embezzled.) Moongoo is the archetype of top-down income, as it's handled by the alliance's logistics dudes and line members aren't involved at all.
This is in contrast to "bottom-up" income, where line members perform the money-making activity, and the alliance takes a small slice, usually through taxes. Ratting is the archetype of bottom-up income.
In this instance, CCP is shifting moongoo from top-down to bottom-up income.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2832
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Posted - 2017.03.28 20:12:57 -
[89] - Quote
SIEGE RED wrote:Querns wrote:Doc J wrote:Querns wrote:This isn't what "top-down income" means. First time I've seen the thread but caught my eye on this, what does top-down income mean? "Top-down" income refers to an alliance funding source that is collected solely by actors at the top of an organization, then is dispersed downwards onto line members. (Assuming it doesn't get embezzled.) Moongoo is the archetype of top-down income, as it's handled by the alliance's logistics dudes and line members aren't involved at all. This is in contrast to "bottom-up" income, where line members perform the money-making activity, and the alliance takes a small slice, usually through taxes. Ratting is the archetype of bottom-up income. In this instance, CCP is shifting moongoo from top-down to bottom-up income. Actually, no. It's the top of a chain or network hub. Not actors at the top of an organisation. There could be overlap, there could be control, rules, regulations, mechanisms - whatever. But they are not by default the same. Keep in mind that chains as well as networks are their own actors in human organisational models and structures.
This pseudointellectual garbage has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2836
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Posted - 2017.03.29 14:52:05 -
[90] - Quote
Ghost Blackman wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Glad to be able to get this ball rolling and start bringing the community into the early process of developing these structures. We're releasing these blogs now so that we can focus Fanfest on listening to you folks. We also look forward to hearing from you all in this thread.
Here's the first set of Q&A after the early feedback and discussion:
Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system? A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.
Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery? A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.
Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events? A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today.
Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine? A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.
Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space? A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature. However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses. For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.
Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released? A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon. MY PLAYER IDEAS FOR GUIDE CHANGES. Just change the role of the Siphons Units to be allowed in normal belts and suck the rock up in small mounts. Anyone should be allow to take from it. But if they do in empire can be flag for can stealing. Comet mining should take place in the game too. You may ask what is this or how should it work? Well I can only point to how. Comet Path FindingRisk Vs. Reward.So you warp and make safe and that's the easy part. Setting up the medium refinery into path of the comets.' Capital size Tractor Beams will pull the comet and pull it closer. Once this comet get close the refinery will shoot it's weapons to break off parts of the comet. Leaving behind belts to mine from. As the comet will break away parts and keep going. Enjoy. OR So you warp and make safe and that's the easy part. Setting up the medium refinery into path of the comets.' Capital size Tractor Beams will slow the comet and pull it closer. Once this comet get close the refinery will shoot it's weapons to break the comet. Leaving behind belts to mine from. Enjoy. Comet fishing :) They're not going to replace what they've already worked on with a whole new thing, that requires new art and everything.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2842
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Posted - 2017.04.06 12:27:10 -
[91] - Quote
Just Mental wrote:Ofc wormhole space gets left out again as Null gets new ways to get resources and new content, As if the gas harvesting hasnt been touched in years and wormhole space doesnt have a steady stream of ore sites at 1 time... Been almost a month before and not even seen an ore site in 1 system.. but oh yet just let Null get all the attention as it controls production ,Seems like a plan
I mean, I'd like to be able to close off access to my space completely and harvest as much ore as possible, but it's not going to happen. Same for you.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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