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Reduction on Lag and make EVE fantastic

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Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.03 22:38:00 - [1] Soo I come here to talk about how the UI use to be like. There was no overview. You had to click everything in space or hover the mouse over it. It was simple to play. You could see how much roids where in the belts by passing the mouse. PVP was a challenge cause you could not zoom out and click an overview. You had to fly upto the enemy to lock on the target cause otherwise the image was too small. Everything was right click or left click. Overview has ruined the game. I also think the life cycle of the local and map functions that give pilots in space are done. PVP should be dangerous for both parties. I hope they reduce lag by removing the overview.
aUTOKILL Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.03 22:51:00 - [2] bad idea. all i can say ~~~~~~ New Sig Coming Soon!
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:04:00 - [3] We have to know that the UI has become overloaded with information. Python is not meant to be an UI coding language. The webpages are over complex. Dev blogs speak of reducing the overhead of the UI. Why not just scrap the Overview. We dont need a summary of the screen we are looking at. We dont need the icons we can use when we click on an object we have the mouse for that. Redundancy is bad for web pages. Showing us the same information in 5 different places is causing lag. It must stop and revert to the old click and lock. Please the Roid mining was fun when you could pass your mouse over and get information. Please make is simple again. The UI even with the great stop sign was better. Or allow use to customize our own UI... let us choose what we want it to do???????????
Drasked North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:11:00 - [4] I remeber eve having an overview even in the beta, i could be smoking too much tho.
Karunel Princeps Corp YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:14:00 - [5] Fleet battles would be awesome tho. ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Marquis Dean Energy.	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:18:00 - [6] I fully agree with this. Remove the overview. Will make fleet battles fun (no more just calling primary over and over again!), will make NPCing fun, will make PvP in general fun cause you will have to actually use the camera and look at things. If this were to happen though, it wouldn't hurt to make the icons on the HUD for each ship more detailed, e.g: to be able to tell between HACs, Recons, BCs etc. --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:26:00 - [7] Quote: Showing us the same information in 5 different places is causing lag How do you find out that ? Imo it's bull****. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Sancho Matar	Posted - 2007.05.04 14:33:00 - [8] well drop the 3d stuff it's useless and lets play with only overview !
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Aki Yamato Quote: Showing us the same information in 5 different places is causing lag How do you find out that ? Imo it's bull****. Umm why do they call it "OVERVIEW"! Every cycle of the screen the data is passed to your client. The data is then massaged into its appropriate classes. You have the overview class the screen class and action class soo on and so forth. Dev blogs mention its old clunky code that was layered on layers of old code. It is being rewritten. They call it a "graphics engine rewrite". I say they dont have to do it. I say they should just make it a visual game. The distance of a ship and the radial velocity means nothing if I have 1 minute module lag while the client is rendering a 50 man/npc gang on my screen with three large bubbles/mission garbage on the screen. I would rather just click and lock by my own actions. I dont need the client to do any calculations for me who to lock.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.05.04 19:51:00 - [10] I dont thing it's works this way, and if yes then it points to very bad initial design. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Sancho Matar well drop the 3d stuff it's useless and lets play with only overview ! I agree. I hardly ever use the pretty graphics, everything important is done with the overview. Removing the overview would make life way to difficult. I would prefer to keep it (or some form of it) and take out the rest... <-----------> Keiron: Quote on PvE/PvP [i]PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:09:00 - [12] So I guess there are a few that want our screen to be the video and the overview more prominent . Soo I guess we have a couple choices. I am wondering what happened to this blog and how its coming do we have a date when it will be done?? New graphics engine I love this part "we need to build really big and beefy monster machines for development, beyond the limits of our power supply." I guess we will all have to get the 550w power supplies and a cooling system for our PC. Yippe!!!
Viridian Onyx Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.04 20:26:00 - [13] I fully agree with the OP on this point. Clearly the overview is nothing but an enormous hindrance to the world of EVE-Online. Not only is the overview a considerable source of lag in the game, but it is directly contributing to the RMT market and "skript kiddiez" of the game. By utilizing this tool they have managed to bring EVE down to a WoW level--a veritable macro and RMT infestation. By removing the overview several key things happen: 1. Fleet battles become more intense. Enough with this "select a ship from the list" crap. Now only players with true skills will be able to succeed in battle as they pick out their opponent from a sea of Capital Ships and other such ships. 600 ships on screen? Better click the right ship the first time, WoWbie, or you're going to be dead and deleting your EVE client out of frustration! Which brings me to my second point: 2. EVE is full of noobs. Removing the overview will bring EVE back to it's "glory days". That's right, this 200k+ subscriber base is RUINING EVE-ONLINE! It's time to send all those 15 million point and lower SP characters BACK TO WOW. Only the truly dedicated will remain. EVE isn't your daddy's EQ, only true military geniuses should be playing this. If you can't navigate without an overview, you obviously fail. So where does that leave us? Well, fundamentally, I hope that this move to eliminate the overview will also lead to more changes in EVE: - Navigation via out-of-game printed star maps, compasses and mathematical formulas. - Removal of the "warp to 0" feature and have it replaced by a manual calculation system, where if a player doesn't calculate out the jump to warp to the 2x10^7 place, they risk coming out of warp in the middle of a g***amn SUN! No hardners going to save you then, noob. - The removal of attribute-based implants. If you can't suck up the learning time CCP originally designed then you need to go back to WoW. I have many more suggestions, but I just overheard one of my coworkers claiming that Picard was a better captain than Kirk. Excuse my while I go lay the proverbial smack down on this noob. __________________________________________________ "I got rid of my teeth at a young age because... I'm straight. Teeth are for g4y people. That's why fairies come and get them." - Master Shake
RtoZ	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:12:00 - [14] Edited by: RtoZ on 04/05/2007 21:09:29 Viridian: You just splurted some of the most stupid crap I have ever read. Sure, CCP will, for the good of the game, kick most of the players out. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? As for the UI: I kinda like Overview, and it does mimic what we could expect an advanced data system in space would do. I would be happy with getting rid of local in low sec. Maybe for PVP it would be better not to have overview, but I'm not a pvp combat player yet so I won't comment. For PVE I need the overview, it makes my life MUCH easier. So I have mixed feelings about what's being said in this thread.
Viridian Onyx Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.04 21:39:00 - [15] Edited by: Viridian Onyx on 04/05/2007 21:39:02 Originally by: RtoZ Edited by: RtoZ on 04/05/2007 21:09:29 Viridian: You just splurted some of the most stupid crap I have ever read. Sure, CCP will, for the good of the game, kick most of the players out. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? Clearly the sheer genius of my proposed changes elude you. __________________________________________________ "I got rid of my teeth at a young age because... I'm straight. Teeth are for g4y people. That's why fairies come and get them." - Master Shake
Ubitious Minmatar Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.05.04 22:25:00 - [16] Its the sort of genius that needs to be perceived with some thought, or perhaps just a little bit of humour? --- "Bring me a shrubbery!"
Mooogie	Posted - 2007.05.05 11:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Viridian Onyx ...It's time to send all those 15 million point and lower SP characters BACK TO WOW. Only the truly dedicated will remain. "Ladies, gentlemen and whatever Viridian Onyx is. I have prepared a statement on behalf of the network (of 15mil and below skill-point players). Ahem. (coughs and clears throat) **** you. Thank you ladies, gentlemen, and Viridian Onyx. If you have any questions, you can direct them to that brick wall over there." Simply ruling out the competency, or 'hard-core nature' per se of players who happened to have joined since at least early 2006 is just... wrong. Not to mention bad for business. Since when are games for military geniuses? Since when do hordes of geniuses play games? Eve is already a unique game in that it takes a bit more brainpower to play when compared to other MMO's, but that doesn't stop people with unremarkable intelligence quotients from playing. Stupidity is an unstoppable force that can not, at this stage in society, be stopped or even slowed, much less underestimated. Anyway, back to the topic. Removing the overview after it has been part of the game for so long would be such a drastic change. Yes, it generates horrendous amounts of graphics lag. Yes, it's very basic, and not that graphically enthralling in itself. Yes, it is in dire need of a major overhaul. Remove it entirely? How about a compromise? Give us the ability to customize our entire UI, then? I hate to say something this harsh, but I think that there are players out there who can code a more graphically efficient UI than the stock UI.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:48:00 - [18] Take yer fancy SAAAAHHRRR-KHAAASM off mah internets, Mistah Viridian. We don't take kindly to yer kind around these parts.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.05.05 15:54:00 - [19] When there was no overview, people just used to use the scanner in the same place, with it's threat indicators. Removing it will do little to be honest, other than stopping people getting sentry/concordokken'd because it doesn't update properly. I agree that actually having to lock your target in space rather thant having a readily available list that you sort fifty different ways would add a new element to pvp, sadly, like local chat being completely removed, there's a VERY slim chance of it ever happening because the majority of people would whine about it. >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
Muscaat	Posted - 2007.05.05 16:01:00 - [20] I very seriously doubt that the overview causes any noticeable graphical lag (unless you're running Eve on an old 8086, maybe...) If you really object to having the overview showing, why not just collapse it? Problem solved. Viridian: I'm amazed that some people managed to completely miss your point... Then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised...
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:09:00 - [21] If anyone actually bothered to watch the level of network traffic Eve generates at their PC they will notice there is basically no polling by the client and no regular updating by the server. Eve is event oriented, it achieves excellent network efficiency by doing this. So, say, when you are moving through an asteroid field you see changing distances on your overview to all the asteroids (assuming they are displayed on the overview) but if you look at the network there is no activity at all. Not until you issue a command or something around you changes, like a mining cycle completes. The point of explaining this is there is no lag caused by regular updates to overview. What is really happening is the client is just too slow at drawing up the display.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:20:00 - [22] As another example of how slow the code is when someone arrives on the scene you will get an extra stutter. This is for just one ship arriving! Imagine what happens when lots arrive at once. Now make this a busy area of space like say a POS or gate camp and you have struggling client PCs and a large number of ships arrive ... major stutter! And then the shooting starts, client isn't over the first stutter yet but has to deal with even more events. Long story short you get nothing but a frozen display. Usually resulting in a podding. None of this is lag.
Lal QelThyr	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:31:00 - [23] Does anyone know if the upgrade in Graphical Engine will involve a redo of Overview code? It doesnt cause to much problems on my side, but every little helps I guess.
SumDum AirHawk Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 03:29:00 - [24] I had a beta account and played for a short time after release, leaving only because MMO's and my life were not compatible at the time. I have returned after a few years and I find the overview and current UI to be a drastic improvement to the 'good old days'. I didn't realize the overview created that much lag that it would outweigh it's usefulness in targetting. I have my overview setup for lots of various situations, moons for pod escape, gates only for long travel, 0.0 setups, Empire setups, gang setups. All of the information the overview provides me with is invaluable. I can't imagine PvP without being able to use it, fleet pvp would be a mess you would have constant friendly fire incidents possibly creating havoc between alliances. Hey who knows, maybe CCP should remove it just for a week or two watch the chaos that would ensue. Of course, it could also make it very hard for macroing anything. AHE wants YOU!
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.05.06 03:33:00 - [25] 1st responce: Whats the op smoking??? 2nd responce: Actually, maybe its not so bad. It'll surely add more excitement. Maybe trial on SISI first? ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.06 19:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Solbright As another example of how slow the code is when someone arrives on the scene you will get an extra stutter. This is for just one ship arriving! Imagine what happens when lots arrive at once. Now make this a busy area of space like say a POS or gate camp and you have struggling client PCs and a large number of ships arrive ... major stutter! And then the shooting starts, client isn't over the first stutter yet but has to deal with even more events. Long story short you get nothing but a frozen display. Usually resulting in a podding. None of this is lag. This is Lag. I understand you want to validate that its not bandwidth. I agree. CCP has made sure not to have bandwidth lag. Its your computer lag. I have a1.8ghz 512ram 128mb 5700 video card my bus speed is 400mhz. I endure local lag based on my specs because the client is working the heck out of my computer. Does this justify the get a better PC remark. Nope I know it can run on my PC and should.
Qolde Minmatar Guardian Heroes Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Muscaat I very seriously doubt that the overview causes any noticeable graphical lag (unless you're running Eve on an old 8086, maybe...) If you really object to having the overview showing, why not just collapse it? Problem solved. Viridian: I'm amazed that some people managed to completely miss your point... Then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised... Next time youre playing, hit control f to bring up the frames per second counter. higher is better. Take note of the average number. Next, hit control tab, to hide the whole UI. Then hit it again, and watch your FPS slow back down to what it normally is, from what it was without the overview. Never get popped again!
Hamatitio Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:35:00 - [28] Before the overview was put in, we had an overview. It was called the scanner. It was ghetto looking, and still served the same function of primary calling. So, it won't work. deal with it :) Hijack this
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:50:00 - [29] Removing / adjusting overview functionality would definetly make fleet warfare interesting again. This sig is confirmed ISD-Proof«
Exortius Amarrus The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:57:00 - [30] If the lag's gone, i could really care less how it's done. ------------------------
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.07 01:37:00 - [31] eve used to have only 50k players 10k online at peak times a dollar used to be able to buy you a days worth of food get used to change ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.07 07:37:00 - [32] Edited by: Sokratesz on 07/05/2007 07:33:29 Originally by: SiJira a dollar used to be able to buy you a days worth of food get used to change Err..yeah..but you dont make 1 dollar an hour anymore, now do ya? This sig is confirmed ISD-Proof«
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:02:00 - [33] Originally by: Harisdrop I agree. CCP has made sure not to have bandwidth lag. Its your computer lag. I have a1.8ghz 512ram 128mb 5700 video card my bus speed is 400mhz. I endure local lag based on my specs because the client is working the heck out of my computer. Does this justify the get a better PC remark. Nope I know it can run on my PC and should. Correct. Your specs are well above the minimum, and even exceeds the recommended except for the GPU but I doubt that's a problem. 3D demands in Eve are pretty average. Calling it "lag" in any way is confusing. It implies a response time issue. In the case of games/simulations lag is usually network latency related but also covers the verification and prediction processes. Since this is simply a slow/jittery frontend I prefer the term "stutter".
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:03:00 - [34] Originally by: SiJira eve used to have only 50k players 10k online at peak times And now it's up to 30k peak and the cluster is handling it rather well. The extra hardware has helped but the hard work put in by the devs on optimising the server code I believe is what has really knocked lag on the head. Why is Eve slower then? Simple, the client codebase is getting more bloated with each addition. Start with something sitting on the edge, make it more complex and you've pushed it well over the edge. There is many possible places in the client's codepath that could contribute to the stutter. One possible cause could be something like the renderer not caching the geometry and texture data on board the graphics card. However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. The same optimising effort that went into the server is now under way on the client - your client performance and you - upcoming improvements.
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:24:00 - [35] Originally by: Solbright Originally by: SiJira eve used to have only 50k players 10k online at peak times And now it's up to 30k peak and the cluster is handling it rather well. The extra hardware has helped but the hard work put in by the devs on optimising the server code I believe is what has really knocked lag on the head. Why is Eve slower then? Simple, the client codebase is getting more bloated with each addition. Start with something sitting on the edge, make it more complex and you've pushed it well over the edge. There is many possible places in the client's codepath that could contribute to the stutter. One possible cause could be something like the renderer not caching the geometry and texture data on board the graphics card. However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. The same optimising effort that went into the server is now under way on the client - your client performance and you - upcoming improvements. My point is that they are not going to stop and might actually make my poor 128mb 5700 graphics card turn to toast. "The new engine is moving more of the processing to the graphics card and optimizing a lot of our older routines. This should benefit most machines that have a relatively recent graphics card (up to 3 years old or so) but the gains should be greater the more recent the card is, due to more rendering being done in hardware. New User Interface Framework is in design, also aiming to move more of the processing to the graphics card GPU, but even more importantly, reducing the draw overhead by merging UI elements and layers during rendering. This however is a very tricky operation and involves rewriting large parts of our User Interface - so be patient, we don't want to have a bugfest on our hands - but know that we are addressing it. "
Solbright	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:40:00 - [36] Originally by: Harisdrop My point is that they are not going to stop and might actually make my poor 128mb 5700 graphics card turn to toast. Very likely indead. One can hope though. There is a slim chance that they will add some real performance settings that can be switched on for fleet work. This will naturally benefit slower PCs.
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.07 16:52:00 - [37] You know what kinda enhancement to the gang I would like is that when a target is broadcasted, a gate to align to, and soo forth they act like when a gang warp is started. Your commander sets the basics and you can choose to follow or stop your ship. Really allowing the squad member to turn off his overview. Like jumping from a squad commander would be the best UI change EVER. This is one thing EVE would need. Not only that allowing commanders to be commanders would enhance game play and reduce 30 people hitting their client doing the same sql request 30 times now would be 3 requests. I think CCP if they did that update and allowing the players to choose the options would be much better for UI optimization than hard coding us into insanity.
Ticondrius Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 16:58:00 - [38] The overview has always been there, but it used to be a button, like the cargo hold. You could turn it on or off at will. Personally, I flew with it off all the time except when I needed to click something that was too small to click. The reason it was that way was because of the screen sizes of the time. 1024x768 with the overview on almost occulds the ship..lol. BTW, notice that you can create a "blank" overview setup that displays nothing which you could switch to and then minimize the overview. That would get you the same effective performance as having it turned off, m8. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!! MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.07 18:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Ticondrius The overview has always been there, but it used to be a button, like the cargo hold. You could turn it on or off at will. Personally, I flew with it off all the time except when I needed to click something that was too small to click. The reason it was that way was because of the screen sizes of the time. 1024x768 with the overview on almost occulds the ship..lol. BTW, notice that you can create a "blank" overview setup that displays nothing which you could switch to and then minimize the overview. That would get you the same effective performance as having it turned off, m8. My point is not that it did not exit in any format but what exists now is is not true to what should be expected. We as players mumble to ourselves as we play about what the screen should be doing at the time were doing it. Another idea. If I click off omber, Veld, scordite, why should I see those roids on my graphical screen. I only want to see the npc rats and the wrecks. Those huge roids take up graphic generation. These are ideas I hope are used in the new UI. Allow us to place which items are going to show. If i can make the screen 16 bit and not 32 why not let the station be rendered at a box or something. Allowing for customization should be down to the detail or as high as a card can take it on your machine.
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.07 20:03:00 - [40] how about this: we remove overview and all grapics, all mouse support and make EVE into a purely text based game. Lets also remove real time and limit players to 1 move per 30 seconds (eg warp to a gate, shoot at another ship, jump thru a gate and so on), to account for lag. Should still be fun right? Or even better: Dont call for sweeping changes that will cause more problems then will be solved. The overview needs a stremalining, but removing it would be simply stupid.
Harisdrop Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:22:00 - [41] I know of a Russian, German, Chinese and a English client. Is the a French, Polish, Swedish, Arabic, Indian, Spanish, and Japanese clients on the way. Since there are soo many opprotunites for those speaking languages. I see a need for customization. Why not all more visual customization as well as language? If CCP develope the client to be customable that works better with the new gang fleet and capital ships I will be happy. Have you ever accessed a carrier in space? Its crazy what the clients do while you are in the corporate hangar array.

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