more and more players have moved away from industry, mining barges was the highest ranked skill removed with injectors. maybe they are trying to force us back.

Secondly it removes the ability for the market to control the pricing of the items based upon their usefulness; instead as (I assume) each item will be built from similar components to each other, their pricing will be arbitrary set by ratios defined by CCP in the BPCs.

more and more players have moved away from industry, mining barges was the highest ranked skill removed with injectors. maybe they are trying to force us back.

If done right, this will be a really good change. Can be a stepping stone into industry especially for new players.

Lemme see if I can explain why this isn't just arbitrary complexity.

First off, this is something that's been talked about among players and CCP for years now, ever since they removed most of the Meta 0 loot from the NPC drop tables to remove "gun mining" as a significant source of minerals.

That's the first thing, a lot of these Meta items aren't actually used much, they just get reprocessed into minerals. This hurts miners and industrialists by, very slightly, increasing the supply of minerals and pushing down their price.

So, what does changing these drops into components get us?

Right now, we have several hundred different Meta modules that are dropped by rats. What this could be replaced by is a smaller set of components similar to what we have with Rigs and Salvage currently. I would imagine some components only get dropped by some rats under this model and others get dropped by most or all rat types.

So someone ratting or doing missions gets these component drops, sells them on the market, and then these components get turned into meta modules by industrialists. This helps both parties. The industrialists get something new to make and sell, and as a result the mission runners get more stable loot drops. Since this smaller set of modules get used to make everything almost everything dropped should get used and turned into valuable modules instead of having a small set of valuable drops and everything else being more or less worthless.

Some components will probably still be more valuable than others, but if it's balanced right so that everything has at least one useful module that it goes into both parties should benefit.

I don't think anyone's talking about this affecting Officer/Deadspace/Faction loot but it easily could, just instead of dropping a module it drops one or two components that get fed into making one of these modules, which could help normalize the value of some of these modules, raising the value of lower demand ones and dropping the price for the more in-demand items.

From a lore perspective this just gets explained as the differences between pirate/NPC and capsuleer ships. Capsuleer ships are more durable and perform better so their systems survive intact better, as opposed to pirate vessels whose guns and other systems are more tightly integrated and less well isolated from a catastrophic disassembly incident.

To build on Cade's post....

Right now ratters are supplying a fairly fixed amount of meta modules to "the market". The justification for this statement is the law of large numbers. When there are N thousands of rats being killed that can drop X meta module with probability P, the number of meta modules X being dropped will be N*P. Thus the supply is rather inelastic--i.e. fairly fixed. This means that the price is largely determined by demand. Thus, if there is a sudden change in demand the only way for the market to resolve this change is through a price change...usually large price changes.

If there are common components across meta modules then this kind of situation can be ameliorated in that the demand will become more elastic--i.e. the familiar upward sloping supply curve. That is components will move between meta module markets as preferences shift and change for whatever reason. Thus a particular doctrine will not be limited by the limits of the market.

Think of it this way, suppose all modules of meta level K share the same components. And suppose the Amarr modules become more in demand, the market can adjust more easily/readily under the proposed change than under the current regime. Not only that, but for people who rat, their markets also become more...."smooth". They don't have to worry what the flavor of the month is.

Seriously...trust "the market" it is surprisingly good at getting people what they need and want. It isn't perfect, but there aren't may such systems that are better really.

and to further build on this..........
Even my own mission running alt has nothing better to do than grind the loot down into minerals, so (and i assuming especially in null) "Gun Mining" is not quite as dead as some people think.
Doing this will promote mining by someone as someone else like me will need the rocks to turn into minerals.
AND, missioners will provide the new components that I as a manufacturer will also need to build the meta-modules.

No more gun mining.

Agreed but 'done right' being the key to that. Instead we will get gluts and a bottleneck component that is exclusive to regions resulting in another monopoly scenario. Why? Because that's what happens every single time.

and to further build on this..........
Even my own mission running alt has nothing better to do than grind the loot down into minerals, so (and i assuming especially in null) "Gun Mining" is not quite as dead as some people think.
Doing this will promote mining by someone as someone else like me will need the rocks to turn into minerals.
AND, missioners will provide the new components that I as a manufacturer will also need to build the meta-modules.

No more gun mining.

And to add to this and Techos' comment about supply, quite often what actually drives the supply of these modules isn't how many drop it's how many bother to be looted. At the very high end ratters and mission runners don't actually loot their missions most of the time. The MTU helps this somewhat but it's still often not worthwhile to pick up most of the loot dropped.

The Shadows of the Serpent event threw this into pretty stark relief because it had you running around for long periods without docking up. Very very little of the loot was worth grabbing and even less was worth the effort of hauling it around. The metric I ended up using was Grapplers, because those are a fairly new module and therefore lower in supply than others that have been around and looted for years and also fairly large. If something wasn't more valuable per M3 than a Grappler then I didn't grab it.

Also a note on Max's post, very little in the way of minerals enters the game this way anymore. It used to be something like 25% of the mineral volume in the game but since the drops rebalance I think it's down to less than 5%, though I can't recall the last time CCP published numbers on it.



This is actually an indication of a properly designed system, not a badly designed one. The supply and demand are set by the players, and over time they'll even out. We've seen this with Salvage with items that are very valuable being prioritized and influencing player behavior on what is or isn't worthwhile to salvage. The end result is some things are slightly more valuable and others less so, but with the determining factor being based on player demand.

Combined with salvage this would give CCP another lever to pull for mission reward balancing, so if one faction is very much not worthwhile to mission for then this could be improved by tweaking the Components that they drop.

I'd have to be in the 'for' side as well, if it was someone other than CCP doing it. They can't figure out how bottlenecks work with T2 production or with T3 production. There's no reason to think this won't be just as broken, and likely moreso considering how much broader it is in scope. Especially since nobody has even mentioned the BPs yet.

The broken future I see is 1 run BPCs being dropped at the same rate as current named modules, every module using the exact same components in the exact same proportions as every other module, and the components being dropped at an insufficient rate to keep up with the amount of BPCs being dropped (and not in the same proportions at which they are consumed.) Oh, and one of the components only gets dropped by 1 rat that spawns for 3 minutes a day in Syndicate.

Is there any reason to expect a better implementation than this? Even when they had a PHD economist on board they couldn't figure this kind of stuff out.

Considering the fact that CCP has already nerfed the hell out of loot drops to the point of being nonexistent, what little amount of dropped modules that are reprocessed now basically has very little to no effect on current Mineral prices in the Market.

Lemme see if I can explain why this isn't just arbitrary complexity.
.....

who said anything about mineral prices?

and as to the other guy to go along with your response.........

Having build components drop instead that will most likely be used more often should more than adequately make up/replace income from module drops while belt rating.

Um, learn to read, quite a few of the posters saying they like the change made reference to 'Gun Mining' and the effect it has on Minerals in the Market.


DMC

which right now would be stupid they are worth more as a module than mineral.

Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......

Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.

With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use.
However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.

So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with?
Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?

I suspect the subcap meta modules will work the same way as the capital ones. BPOs are available on the market as are named components.

Production will require a T1 module plus some named components which will presumably be available as loot or salvage.

Named components are tiny, .001 m3, so ratters & mission runners won't need huge cargo bays for their loot.

This is a very positive change for nullsec since the meta modules needed for doctrine fits will be able to be built locally.

It's also a very positive change for the Eve economy since the minerals required to make these things will now need to be harvested by players - only the named components will drop as loot/salvage.

Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......

Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.

With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use.
However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.

So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with?
Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?

Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......

Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.

With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use.
However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.

So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with?
Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?

I'd have to be in the 'for' side as well, if it was someone other than CCP doing it. They can't figure out how bottlenecks work with T2 production or with T3 production. There's no reason to think this won't be just as broken, and likely moreso considering how much broader it is in scope. Especially since nobody has even mentioned the BPs yet.

The broken future I see is 1 run BPCs being dropped at the same rate as current named modules, every module using the exact same components in the exact same proportions as every other module, and the components being dropped at an insufficient rate to keep up with the amount of BPCs being dropped (and not in the same proportions at which they are consumed.) Oh, and one of the components only gets dropped by 1 rat that spawns for 3 minutes a day in Syndicate.

Is there any reason to expect a better implementation than this? Even when they had a PHD economist on board they couldn't figure this kind of stuff out.

Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......

Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.

With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use.
However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.

So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with?
Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?

So after watching some of the fanfest videos I took note that CCP Fozzie wants to stop npcs dropping meta items and instead get them to drop components for us to build the meta items as part of their vision to have the players build all items. This doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons.

First off it feels just like its adding in an arbitrary layer of complexity without really providing any benefit, you just have to go through an extra step before you have the item to use or sell.

Secondly it removes the ability for the market to control the pricing of the items based upon their usefulness; instead as (I assume) each item will be built from similar components to each other, their pricing will be arbitrary set by ratios defined by CCP in the BPCs.

Thirdly it doesn't quite make sense from a "lore" / practical standpoint. Player ships drop their equipment when they die; why now for NPCs should they behave different and drop components instead of modules, unless of course the intent is for the same to be done with player ships ?

As a general side note is this change expected to affect faction / deadspace / officer items as well or just the basic meta 0-4 modules from standard rats?

Oh hai, so I'd like to correct a couple of assumptions here.

"Gun mining" these days produces a tiny fraction of the mineral demands of the game, and certainly a tiny fraction of the Megacyte used in the game.

This is the reprocessing result for any meta 425mm Railgun, note that it produces a total of *16* Megacyte. In comparison a single reprocessing of Arkonor produces 320 Megacyte and 22,000 Trit. That's less than half the Trit and roughly 20 times the Megacyte. Also note that that's actually on the high side for a module in terms of Megacyte output, most produce 6 or less.

The average volume of Megacyte traded in The Forge in the last three weeks per day was around 22.9 million, that means it would take 1.4 million module drops to supply the average daily Megacyte needs of Jita. Since that volume is clearly ridiculous, and would supply more than 4 times the daily Trit requirements of Jita, we can easily assume that most Megacyte is already coming from Null ore sources.

That's not to say that such a change wouldn't have any impact on the mineral market, but it would likely be small and largely confined to the minerals high-sec is already rich in, since those are the primary reprocessing product of unwanted meta modules.

Also it's unlikely that people Carrier ratting in Null (where the vast majority of Null NPC kills come from) would bother to pick up the relatively low value components ratting would produce. Similarly you rarely see someone ratting in a Carrier and salvaging their wrecks even on an alt. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's much more common in High Sec. It's just not really worth the time required to loot a few million off the field rather than just moving on to the next site.

Given this it seems unlikely that Null as a whole will be completely independent of the rest of the game for Meta module supply, the same way they aren't really now, especially since it seems unlikely the faction flavor of drops is going to go away with a change like this. If you live in Guristas space but you want Meta Beam Lasers you're going to need drops from Sansha or Blood Raider ships, the same as today.

Similarly a newbro looking to get into industry will have to buy components off the market, the same as he does today.

It's not really a concern for someone just starting out though. Lots of simple T1 items don't even require Megacyte or other minerals that are only really available from Null.

Please let me know if I missed something in there or if something seems disjointed or doesn't make sense. I'm a bit under the weather today.