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Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.11 12:16:00 -
[91]
I agree with Ray for the most part.
Ray is good people.
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SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.05.11 12:34:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Silmas
What good would it do to anyone to name the scammer*?
He/she just took advantage of changing situation regarding value of his BPO. Something that quite many would've done I am sure. Imagine yourself in same situation, what would YOU do?
*Fixed!
This is something that quite many would not have done I am sure. Otherwise BMBE and ISSO would both have long since have gotten out of the loans business/gone bankrupt and Rast wouldn't have had any isk left to run off with.
For all you know you ARE in the same situation and the thief in question is even now perusing the contents of your corp hangars. If you knew the identity of this thief would you tell your corpmates? Well, this particular individual stole 30B from a public corporation, that's why the public, not just the corp members should know.
There is no question that we're talking about someone that knew his BPOs were about to lose value. Rather than be satisfied with the profits made from producing 2 of these BPOs prior to that, he chose to use them to scam BMBE. Who are you, or TS, or Ray to tell the folks that were robbed that they're not allowed to know the identity of the scammer and chose their own courses of action?
Qui tacet consentit, by remaining silent, BMBE leadership become accessories to the crime. Silence for so long on the loss is what started the current uproar. Silence continuing, on who the thief was, and why the loss has not long-ago been recouped, will only drag their once-good names deeper into the muck.
Repair damage first, then think about moving on.
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Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.05.11 12:41:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Eefrit on 11/05/2007 12:41:52
Ray, I understand the argument for witholding the defulters identity, but see no argument for witholding the details of the default.
Could you please give us:
a) the date the loan was taken out
b) the dates (if any) of any interest payments
c) what the BPOs were valued at at the time (i.e. what loan to value was given)
d) essentially all information that you have other than the persons identity.
e) if the person is affiliated in any way with BIG or a close friend of anyone in BIG. I think this is important.
If you can't, would you mind explaining why not as this is not breaking confidence and something that should by all rights be reported on to investors anyway. I personally would accept your word on these, and if it is clear from your answers that nothing untoward was going on, then it will at least appease myself.
Thanks,
Eefrit
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Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.11 12:42:00 -
[94]
Son, they didnt steal it, they just defaulted on their loan.
The reason I would like to see the name disclosed is not to seek them out for any reason, but so other businesses can avoid dealing with the person if they should choose.
It would be similar to your credit report in real life.
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SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.05.11 14:02:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ionia
Son, they didnt steal it, they just defaulted on their loan.
The story we have been given is that the loan was issued shortly before and defaulted on shorly after the patch. I've never heard anyone, including TS and Ray dispute that reported timing, which by itself is more than just a little suspicious. Add to that it was not one, but two of the same BPO, and I have no doubt this is not a coincidence at all.
Even if someone is a complete patsy and believes it was just chance the loan was taken right before the patch, defaulting because the collateral isn't worth as much, rather than inability to pay, is still theft in my book.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.11 14:08:00 -
[96]
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
defaulting because the collateral isn't worth as much, rather than inability to pay, is still theft in my book.
QFT
Good faith exist in agreements only when both sides act in good faith. Otherwise its not an agreement. It's an idiot and his newest bestest friend.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
JagGator
United Freeloaders
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Posted - 2007.05.11 22:03:00 -
[97]
Also in real life, if you default on your mortgage payment, the bank sells your house. If the bank does not recoup full loan value from the house sale, you still owe them the difference.
The bank will get an judgement to garnish your wages (public information) or else you will have to declare bankruptcy (public information) in order to get out of owing the remainder of the loan. There is no way a defaulter is kept "in confidence" in the real world.
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.05.13 18:48:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Eefrit
a) the date the loan was taken out
2006-05-21
Originally by: Eefrit
b) the dates (if any) of any interest payments
None.
Originally by: Eefrit
c) what the BPOs were valued at at the time (i.e. what loan to value was given)
Don't know.
Originally by: Eefrit
e) if the person is affiliated in any way with BIG or a close friend of anyone in BIG.
They are not affiliated with BIG in any way. They have never been in a corporation that is or has been affiliated with BIG. The CEO and Founder of their current corporation and corporation at the time of the loan are not affiliated with BIG in any way. I cannot guarantee they are not friends with any past or present BIG member, as that would mean me releasing the defaultor's name when asking them. They are not friends of anyone that is or has been involved with the BMBE, though.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Mr Ratty
Ratty Corp PLC
Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.05.14 18:32:00 -
[99]
the skiff loan was 30bn, i forget the % but for t2 loand they loan you partial value of the bpo, 75% or something. so at a guess i'd say about 40bn would get you in the ballpark.
How are you currently valuing the skiffs? 12 month profit (which seems to be the norm for t2) or ave auction price?
Personally any biz making loans on based on the value of an item with an unstable price is going to get burned eventually, everyone who asked for the t2 loans should have known that, no eve investment is risk free you take the ups with the downs.
Every investment in eve is not based on the rate of return, biz plan, or hoped for profit, it's based entirely on your trust in the person running the operation, if you have doubts, dont invest, TS is one of the most stubborn, cantankerous, stubborn (it's worth saying twice) buggers i know, i think shars the only one to give TS a run for the money in that regard, but thats why i invested with TS (and would have with shars last enterprise if i'd spotted the thread), you know exactly what you get, i've used BIG's services over the years, from buying my first BS BPO with the big deal (Which i still have, and it the only BS bpo that still makes me steady coin lol), to the Jove parts scavinger hunt and so on, each time i knew what BIG said i'd get, and i know what i got, funny thing, the 2 were almost exactly the same.
BMBE they said, low but steady return....guess what i got (apart from a dry patch in the middle, but nobodys perfect), a low but steady return.
They did exactly what it said on the box.
Thats not to say TS wont budge, we got some of the returns reinvested, and hopefully we can get that excessive management fee reduced at some point, but again, we signed up when it was a 50/50 split, so anything better than that is a bonus.
People seem to be getting bent out of shape about the defaulted loan, i think TS posted a link to it, but i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in a monthly report there was a default, and i don't see what difference shouting about it would have made, other than giving other loners the idea of trying to do it themselves!
BMBE gives out loans, it would be the hight of naivete to think none would ever default!
**** happens, you hold your nose till the stink goes and learn to watch where you step, long as you can do that things will work out.
<><><><>
http://www.freelancingcorp.co.uk
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.14 18:57:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Mr Ratty
TS is one of the most stubborn, cantankerous, stubborn (it's worth saying twice) buggers i know, i think shars the only one to give TS a run for the money in that regard
So I place second to TS in that. 
Only problem is, can't figure who to set my sights on to fix that. Hmmmm... any dev's handy for me to argue with this year? 
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
ElweSingollo> Eve is P v P not P v GM. |
Mr Ratty
Ratty Corp PLC
Confederation of Independent Corporations
|
Posted - 2007.05.14 21:54:00 -
[101]
Only just :)
after all it is TS thread, gotta be nice to the locals and all.
I meant it in a good way tho, peeps like you and TS, tend to be honest and if you plan on doing something tend to do it, and if you dont, you will at least make good to the best of your ability.
<><><><>
http://www.freelancingcorp.co.uk
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Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:31:00 -
[102]
Well I was reading this cause I was bored, and read some of the other threads.
Given the rate of failure of various IPOs in EVE, the bank idea with no real game mechanisms to keep it in place I think has done pretty good with Ray and TornSoul at the helm.
The economic model of EVE follows most real world economies (indeed CCP is hiring an economist if you didn't know that to help with the games economy).
What have been the top 1000 Corporation Shares traded publicly in the history of EVE? (assuming there has been a thousand).
How long did each of those last?
What was the average return on each one over its lifetime?
I bet if we sat down and looked at it, compared to many other endeavors in EVE, BMBE has been run well and has had a good return to its investors. Its most certainly in the top ten, and most likely the top 5.
I do agree with several folks assessment, the printing of more shares means each share is worth less. Its called a split in the real world. Its like what Ray said though, without increasing the capital value of BMBE then if you doubled the shares you basically halve the share value. Eefrit appears to wants just that. If the shares became devalued he could buy more of them and thus have a means of gaining control.
This very argument though could be counterproductive, someone might decide to try it again. That is one reason that I believe it is resonable to publicly name the person who defaulted. It is in the interest of similar business not to extend the same good faith credit to them in the future. The other reason is that outting them might make them come good and pay back the isk however unlikely that is.
They made a mistake early on but seem to have learned. They've been running it good since then. I think they should be left to run it.
Idea: Treaties
Idea: Jump Rigs |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises
Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.16 16:38:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
What have been the top 1000 Corporation Shares traded publicly in the history of EVE? (assuming there has been a thousand).
How long did each of those last?
What was the average return on each one over its lifetime?
I bet if we sat down and looked at it, compared to many other endeavors in EVE, BMBE has been run well and has had a good return to its investors. Its most certainly in the top ten, and most likely the top 5.
no. |
Balogh
Gallente
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:45:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
I do agree with several folks assessment, the printing of more shares means each share is worth less. Its called a split in the real world. Its like what Ray said though, without increasing the capital value of BMBE then if you doubled the shares you basically halve the share value.
A split actually splits already existing shares. No new shares are created. If I were to own 10 shares, after a 1:2 split I would own 20, which would be worth exactly the same as the 10 original shares.
In EVE, the only way to increase the amount of shares is to issue new ones. Unlike a split, the new shares would be located in the corporation walle.
Quote:
Eefrit appears to wants just that. If the shares became devalued he could buy more of them and thus have a means of gaining control.
That's incorrect. If a corporation were to issue new shares which would cause the existing shares to lose value, it would be easier to buy the existing shares. However, if you want to take control, buying the shares after the new ones have been issued is actually more expensive.
______________________________
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Kasia Pelarar
Eve Share and Market Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.16 19:03:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
If the shares became devalued he could buy more of them and thus have a means of gaining control.
Just picking this out as an EVE "urban myth".
You can only take control of a corporation in EVE if you are part of that corporation. It does not matter how many shares you have, if you are not part of the corporation you cannot start a vote (directors only) or press the "run for CEO" button ("major" shareholder). 
See this post.
Eve Share & Market Reporting
Eve Share & Market Analysis
graphical sig required |
Balogh
Gallente
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2007.05.16 19:33:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Kasia Pelarar
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
If the shares became devalued he could buy more of them and thus have a means of gaining control.
You can only take control of a corporation in EVE if you are part of that corporation.
Suppose I did gain control of the BMBE corporation. Then what? According to this post, the ISK isn't even located in the corporation wallet, but in Ray McCormack's and TornSoul's wallet. As BMBE's only business is lending ISK, and there's no ISK in the corporation wallet, having control of BMBE is meaningless. And because the location of the collateral is unspecified*, there's no way to determine the status of the investors' money.
*: Is the collateral, like the ISK, located in personal hangars, or is it actually located in a BMBE hangar?
______________________________
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.05.16 19:36:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Balogh
Is the collateral, like the ISK, located in personal hangars, or is it actually located in a BMBE hangar?
That depends. Usually we don't like to move high-value items about, so it's left in personal hangars wherever we received it.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 07:29:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
What have been the top 1000 Corporation Shares traded publicly in the history of EVE? (assuming there has been a thousand).
How long did each of those last?
What was the average return on each one over its lifetime?
I bet if we sat down and looked at it, compared to many other endeavors in EVE, BMBE has been run well and has had a good return to its investors. Its most certainly in the top ten, and most likely the top 5.
no.
Okay I'll bite.
Why do you say no?
From a casual observance more than half of the IPOs ever offered have failed for one of three reasons:
1. Outright scam to begin with.
2. Corp theft reduced assets to the point the entity was no longer viable.
3. War caused such damage that the enterprise could not be pursued after the initial IPO sale.
Probably at least a third and possibly as many as half have never paid out any dividends. Which means the investor lost their shirt so to speak.
The only IPO that might have paid out better than BMBE in the past would have possibly been ISS before it was destroyed by war. (Not the last two ISS share plans but the early ones).
This is just based on casual observance of this forum.
I still contend that if you compare BMBE to the industry average within the New Eden universe it has done fairly well.
Idea: Treaties
Idea: Jump Rigs |
Balogh
Gallente
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 08:53:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Balogh on 17/05/2007 08:51:34
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
The only IPO that might have paid out better than BMBE in the past would have possibly been ISS before it was destroyed by war. (Not the last two ISS share plans but the early ones).
I still contend that if you compare BMBE to the industry average within the New Eden universe it has done fairly well.
Based on the dividend paid in the last two months and the last trading price on EGSE (BMBE isn't tradable on RESX at this moment), BMBE's ROI is 4.33%. Compare that to other corporations' ROI on http://resx.nfshost.com/exchange.php. Do keep in mind the ROI is based on the current trading price, not the IPO price.
______________________________
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 09:50:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Balogh
Edited by: Balogh on 17/05/2007 08:51:34
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
The only IPO that might have paid out better than BMBE in the past would have possibly been ISS before it was destroyed by war. (Not the last two ISS share plans but the early ones).
I still contend that if you compare BMBE to the industry average within the New Eden universe it has done fairly well.
Based on the dividend paid in the last two months and the last trading price on EGSE (BMBE isn't tradable on RESX at this moment), BMBE's ROI is 4.33%. Compare that to other corporations' ROI on http://resx.nfshost.com/exchange.php. Do keep in mind the ROI is based on the current trading price, not the IPO price.
Well if you look at that and then place BMBE into it it would be 3rd on that exchange behind ISSO (which I mentioned the ISS ones had been superior) and FIN). Well consistent with my earlier assertion that BMBE was at the worst in the top 10 and probably was in the top 5 history wise.
The EGSE though has different prices for many of the same shares. It shows negative momentum for FIN, and shows practically no momentum for all other listed shares including BMBE.
Idea: Treaties
Idea: Jump Rigs |
Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 12:40:00 -
[111]
I will grant that current performace has been fair of late, but it does not matter to long term investors what the current performance is if it has not been consistent.
If you are going to compare BMBE to other public corps, you should look at the average dividend as a % of value over the last 6 months to a year. Doing that paints a rather different picture.
Sincerely,
Eefrit
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Balogh
Gallente
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 13:33:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Eefrit
I will grant that current performace has been fair of late, but it does not matter to long term investors what the current performance is if it has not been consistent.
If you are going to compare BMBE to other public corps, you should look at the average dividend as a % of value over the last 6 months to a year. Doing that paints a rather different picture.
I have added a 6 month ROI column. As RESX hasn't yet recorded 6 months of dividend history for every corp, those corps will not show the 6 month ROI. Once 6 months of history has been recorded, the column will automatically activate for that corp.
I'm currently adding as much history as possible, using ESMaR as source.
______________________________
Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Kasia Pelarar
Eve Share and Market Authority
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 13:48:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Balogh
Originally by: Eefrit
I will grant that current performace has been fair of late, but it does not matter to long term investors what the current performance is if it has not been consistent.
If you are going to compare BMBE to other public corps, you should look at the average dividend as a % of value over the last 6 months to a year. Doing that paints a rather different picture.
I have added a 6 month ROI column. As RESX hasn't yet recorded 6 months of dividend history for every corp, those corps will not show the 6 month ROI. Once 6 months of history has been recorded, the column will automatically activate for that corp.
I'm currently adding as much history as possible, using ESMaR as source.
Someone mention me?
Okay - will be sending bill on Eve-mail
No, really glad to be of service. If anyone wants to use the information then that is what it is there for.
<shameful advert> Anyone wanting to donate please feel free, I just ask that you send an Eve-mail too (or message on cash receipt) so I know what you sent, and whether you wish to be anonymous (no-one yet). Even defunct shares (preferably those that were publicly launched); I have a sky Vision Enterprises from Treelox , just cannot remember when he sent it - no Eve-mail  ). </shameful advert>
Eve Share & Market Reporting
Eve Share & Market Analysis
graphical sig required |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises
Power Corrupts Industry's
|
Posted - 2007.05.17 17:26:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
words to be corrected with historical/current data/facts.
sorry. no.
iss is still paying 5% a month, every month, period. what's bmbe's average? is it even 4%? 3%? over it's liftime.
fin consistently pays better. i believe, lifetime, aatp is even paying better.
if you go thru the list, or even look on esmar/esman (which is only showing RECENT ones) bmbe is number 14. that's out of the current batch. so no, it's not in the top ten and certainly not the top five. unless you look at how much isk per share you receive, while completely ignoring the cost of said share, in which case, i can't help you, because you're ignoring way too many facts.
now throw in LONG paying corps who just ended up closing their doors after 1-2 years of paying divs way better than bmbe (what? 8-15% on average probably or maybe better depending, like omara, pct, etc). then you've got bmbe even lower on the list.
so no.
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Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
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Posted - 2007.05.18 07:49:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
words to be corrected with historical/current data/facts.
sorry. no.
iss is still paying 5% a month, every month, period. what's bmbe's average? is it even 4%? 3%? over it's liftime.
fin consistently pays better. i believe, lifetime, aatp is even paying better.
if you go thru the list, or even look on esmar/esman (which is only showing RECENT ones) bmbe is number 14. that's out of the current batch. so no, it's not in the top ten and certainly not the top five. unless you look at how much isk per share you receive, while completely ignoring the cost of said share, in which case, i can't help you, because you're ignoring way too many facts.
now throw in LONG paying corps who just ended up closing their doors after 1-2 years of paying divs way better than bmbe (what? 8-15% on average probably or maybe better depending, like omara, pct, etc). then you've got bmbe even lower on the list.
so no.
You yourself are ignoring many facts.
If you do not like the returns, and are a shareholder in BMBE, then sell your shares to someone else. It is really that simple.
TornSoul and Ray though have done a good job. They are clearly beating the average expected return when you consider all IPOs ever offered. (Yes you have to average in those that were scams, that lost everything due to theft, and those that were forced to close due to wartime losses.). Yes some have done better than BMBE, and there are still a few (two based upon the figures others have given above) that are giving better returns still.
It is not uncommon for reports to be late, or even for a corporation to restate earnings for past quarters in the real world.
My point was to point out that many of the people that have been flaming Torn and Ray are wrong. They have done a good job, they have stuck with it even though it was hard, and they have been working towards regaining what was lost.
If you feel you can do better, start a competing bank, and lets see how well you do.
Idea: Treaties
Idea: Jump Rigs |
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.05.18 13:45:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
TornSoul and Ray though have done a good job. They are clearly beating the average expected return when you consider all IPOs ever offered.
Originally by: Tornsoul
Total beeing
54,585,992 ISK
Since you don't seem to understand the 'investment' you're defending, let me spell it out for you. Assuming you paid IPO price at launch you've made a grand total (dividends + NAV) of just under 9.2% in 15 months. Definitely not top 3, I don't think I own a single share that HASN'T beat that. I should also emphasize that spectacular 7.3% annualized return is assuming reported NAV is even accurate now. After all the people you entrusted with your isk have misrepresented it before and continue to tacitly endorse scamming of the corp they run on your behalf.
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.05.18 13:56:00 -
[117]
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
and continue to tacitly endorse scamming of the corp they run on your behalf.
How are we doing that?
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.05.18 14:33:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
How are we doing that?
I've already covered that in posts 94 and 97 of this very thread. Until you tell your investors who stole THEIR money, you remain complicit and are in effect encouraging others to rip off your investors for even more.
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.05.18 14:51:00 -
[119]
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
The story we have been given is that the loan was issued shortly before and defaulted on shorly after the patch. I've never heard anyone, including TS and Ray dispute that reported timing, which by itself is more than just a little suspicious.
The loan was given on 2006-05-21. It would have defaulted on 2006-05-28. I can't see exactly, but judging from patch-problem posts I'd say the patch was applied on 2006-06-03. In the patch notes it says that Skiff volumes were corrected 2006-06-20 in a static data update.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.18 19:43:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
The loan was given on 2006-05-21. It would have defaulted on 2006-05-28. I can't see exactly, but judging from patch-problem posts I'd say the patch was applied on 2006-06-03. In the patch notes it says that Skiff volumes were corrected 2006-06-20 in a static data update.
Then the debtor intentionally defaulted the loan within a week of taking the money. In other words, you never had a good faith relationship. The debtor intended to drop the hammer on you and he did. Whether or not you keep white washing non disclosure of who it was under "confidentiality" is your business and your choice but don't act clueless when people keep bringing this up to sling mud at you. IMHO, you should have challenged the default and possibly disclosed the information as I'd suspect the debtor is a volunteer who had good knowledge of when the boom would fall. The timing of events was to exact to be anything else. As such the default was an exploitation and an abuse. Ethical deportment is still ethical deportment and it's not like such stunts haven't been pulled before. Now, to tidy this all up in one neat little bundle... ain't crap to be done about this now. I'm quite sure we are all sick and tired of hearing about it. Especially at the drop of a hat. "Ooooooooh... I see Torn's name in text. Must scream, moan, and whine about something I can't do a darned thing about. Oooooooooh.... " The thread turned to someone pointing out that BMBE has done a remarkable job. And yes they have. While there have been many ipo's in eve and people want to gradiate the truth of BMBE's success by classifying it this way or spinning it that way the point of the matter is: BMBE is, and still is, unique within Eve. Point to me any other successful lending institution and I'll bow out. Until then, everyone knows that lending is a risky business. When you bought shares of BMBE you accepted the risk of defaulted loans. Cry and whine about everything else around this fact but you fool no one. So... scam accusers... Proof or stfu.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
ElweSingollo> Eve is P v P not P v GM. |
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