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Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.05.19 19:20:00 -
[151]
I still dont know where the idea of posting a % dividend came from, its rediculous.
Post the actual amount of isk per share and each investor can calculate their own roi based on the price they paid.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.19 19:38:00 -
[152]
 Originally by: Ionia
I still dont know where the idea of posting a % dividend came from, its rediculous. Post the actual amount of isk per share and each investor can calculate their own roi based on the price they paid.
Either methodology allows for "massaged" representation of facts. Percentages though tend to favor "massaging" favorably which may explain why those who are on the negative camp argue for presenting "lesser" percentages. 6 in one hand...
But I agree with you. Just the facts is better.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
ElweSingollo> Eve is P v P not P v GM. |
Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.19 20:15:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
That screws over the original IPO investors....
What are you talking about. I made a simple point: report accurately without untrue assumption of how much a share is worth. This does not have to be that difficult to agree with. In RL if I buy a share of something, receive a dividend and sell this share then my profit or loss is the difference between the prices that I paid for the shares plus the dividend. It is pretty simple math and if you use it then you do not have to constantly deal with the mystery of "what happened to the money in my wallet I thought I had more."
If these shares actually had a "cash out value", which I presume you to mean that BMBE guarantees to buy back shares at IPO price, then I could see what you are talking about but we would not be having this discussion if they did.
I realize that sometimes people refuse to acknowledge their loss so they delay selling their shares which are "underwater" and they kid themselves that they have not lost anything until they actually sold. Same thing is happening here when ppl look at dividends and ignore the fact that their share price fell in determining if BMBE is a success. If you really do not feel that BMBE management is not responsible for share price then no wonder the shares are worth less than IPO price because the would-be-buyers of your shares agree with you.
The only way that a stock system is going to work in Eve is if share performance is used to evaluate management performance in the long run. Share price does not lie in a long run.
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Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.19 20:28:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ionia
I still dont know where the idea of posting a % dividend came from, its rediculous. Post the actual amount of isk per share and each investor can calculate their own roi based on the price they paid.
Either methodology allows for "massaged" representation of facts. Percentages though tend to favor "massaging" favorably which may explain why those who are on the negative camp argue for presenting "lesser" percentages. 6 in one hand...
But I agree with you. Just the facts is better.
What?
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Treelox
Amarr
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.19 21:30:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Treelox on 19/05/2007 21:29:20
Originally by: Rthor
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ionia
I still dont know where the idea of posting a % dividend came from, its rediculous. Post the actual amount of isk per share and each investor can calculate their own roi based on the price they paid.
Either methodology allows for "massaged" representation of facts. Percentages though tend to favor "massaging" favorably which may explain why those who are on the negative camp argue for presenting "lesser" percentages. 6 in one hand...
But I agree with you. Just the facts is better.
What?
ROI given as a % by reporting corps is very subjective. Not everyone paid the same ammount for their shares, so the % (in regards to the dividend) is not the same for everyone.
Easy Example
Pod Pilot A, buys 1 share of ACME for 1000isk.
Pod Pilot B, buys 1 share of ACME for 500isk.
ACME pays a dividend of 100isk.
Pod Pilot A, has a 10% ROI (dividend)
Pod Pilot B, has a 20% ROI (dividend)
End Example
I agree with Ionia and Shar, It would be nice to see the raw number, and not only the subjective % as based upon the IPO price.
To further confuse things, I have been getting a 15% ROI(return on investment) on my AATP portfolio.
Why?
Because I had the good fortune to be in the right place at the right time, and be able to buy a bunch off someone who needed liquid isk quick. He sold me a bunch at +50% discount off their IPO face value.
++EDITED for Clarity++
--
FTEK | Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Omber Zombie's Wet Work |
Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.19 21:59:00 -
[156]
What is a raw number?
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.05.19 22:48:00 -
[157]
This is just getting ridiculous. I am defining "cash-out value" as NAV; that is NOT a buyback at IPO price, that is BMBE liquidating everything they own and dividending it. But, fine, insert your own numbers into:
50,720,000 ISK--sell value for BMBE shares at IPO
50,000,000 ISK--book value for BMBE shares at IPO
40,948,664 ISK--current value of each share
42,950,000 ISK--lowest sell order on EGSEx
34,000,000 ISK--highest buy order on EGSEx
13,637,328 ISK--dividends since inception
Now, try to use that last number in a useful calculation without using the IPO values and without making yourself look like an idiot. Here, I'll do two for you:
Joe bought BMBE shares at (pulling a number out of thin air) 40m apiece right after the IPO (somehow).
Joe's shares are now worth 40,948,664 isk apiece--a 948,664 isk profit.
Joe has received 13,637,328 isk in dividends.
Joe now sells his shares to a non-existant, mythical buyer who's willing to pay 40,948,664 isk apiece for them.
Joe has realized 14,585,992 isk in profit off of 40m isk in thirteen months, or 2.8% per month.
Alternately, he can sell to the buy order, in which case he'd make 7,637,328 isk, or 1.47% per month.
The glaring questions of how the hell he bought those shares for 40m isk and who he's selling them to (for the first example) are left unanswered.
For the rest of us, let's stick to real-world numbers, OK?
MP
--
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.05.19 23:10:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
This is just getting ridiculous.
QFT
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
ElweSingollo> Eve is P v P not P v GM. |
Rthor
Gallente
Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.19 23:38:00 -
[159]
  
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.05.20 02:01:00 -
[160]
I wonder if it's time to stop raping BMBE and let them get back to work.
We should write a book on this. I will organise the chapters
1) BMBE, the beginning
2) Where art thou dividends
3) The money laundering
4) Ray (gangsta name) joins BMBE
5) The takeover (or not)
6) Failed takeover resulting in information leak
7) Doctored Reports Uncovered
8) Credibility attack on Torn Soul by Eefrit
9) Defensive stations for Baun
10) Credibility attack on Eefrit by Torn Soul
11) Eefrit found to have lied for personal gain
12) BMBE vs Eve Online, the debate
13) Debate completed, no outcome as expected
14) Debating continues and old points are rehashed.
Guys, can we finish this with chapter 15?
15) BMBE is left to fix their mistakes and ensure it doesn't happen again. Work on building reputation back up, and show shareholders that their funds weren't ill-invested.
Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine! |
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.05.20 02:10:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Ricdic
I wonder if it's time to stop raping BMBE and let them get back to work.
We should write a book on this. I will organise the chapters
1) BMBE, the beginning
2) Where art thou dividends
3) The money laundering
4) Ray (gangsta name) joins BMBE
5) The takeover (or not)
6) Failed takeover resulting in information leak
7) Doctored Reports Uncovered
8) Credibility attack on Torn Soul by Eefrit
9) Defensive stations for Baun
10) Credibility attack on Eefrit by Torn Soul
11) Eefrit found to have lied for personal gain
12) BMBE vs Eve Online, the debate
13) Debate completed, no outcome as expected
14) Debating continues and old points are rehashed.
Guys, can we finish this with chapter 15?
15) BMBE is left to fix their mistakes and ensure it doesn't happen again. Work on building reputation back up, and show shareholders that their funds weren't ill-invested.
16) Baun is banished from Market Discussion forum for doing everything he can to fan the flames by not giving out information.
I can hope can't I?
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Verite Rendition
Caldari
AUS Corporation
CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.21 00:01:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Ricdic
I wonder if it's time to stop raping BMBE and let them get back to work.
We should write a book on this. I will organise the chapters
1) BMBE, the beginning
2) Where art thou dividends
3) The money laundering
4) Ray (gangsta name) joins BMBE
5) The takeover (or not)
6) Failed takeover resulting in information leak
7) Doctored Reports Uncovered
8) Credibility attack on Torn Soul by Eefrit
9) Defensive stations for Baun
10) Credibility attack on Eefrit by Torn Soul
11) Eefrit found to have lied for personal gain
12) BMBE vs Eve Online, the debate
13) Debate completed, no outcome as expected
14) Debating continues and old points are rehashed.
Guys, can we finish this with chapter 15?
15) BMBE is left to fix their mistakes and ensure it doesn't happen again. Work on building reputation back up, and show shareholders that their funds weren't ill-invested.
Not until TS/Ray come at us with a plan to fix things.
----
AUS Corp
Lead Megalomanic |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.05.21 02:11:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Ricdic
11) Eefrit found to have lied for personal gain
Eefrit has expressed distaste at me for posting this. He doesn't feel it was posted in a humourous fashion and is a direct attack against him. I thought it was pretty obvious that it was joking due to:
1) Reference to a book
2) Reference to chapter titles
3) Reference to Gangsta Ray
4) Reference to Baun commanding battle stations
So, whilst I won't apologise as I shouldn't have to tiptoe around people, I do want this point to be clear.
Thank you,
Ricdic
Sick of the waits with empire research slots? Use mine! |
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.05.21 02:17:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Ricdic
11) Eefrit found to have lied for personal gain
Eefrit has expressed distaste at me for posting this. He doesn't feel it was posted in a humourous fashion and is a direct attack against him. I thought it was pretty obvious that it was joking due to:
1) Reference to a book
2) Reference to chapter titles
3) Reference to Gangsta Ray
4) Reference to Baun commanding battle stations
So, whilst I won't apologise as I shouldn't have to tiptoe around people, I do want this point to be clear.
Thank you,
Ricdic
I think using Romeo and Juliet-esqe quote for a chapter also counts as a joke...
I guess I have a broken humor chip in my positronic net.
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.05.21 09:08:00 -
[165]
All joking aside, we still need to know the name of the person who defaulted, and we need to know it before they have a chance to change corps, buy new alts, etc., etc., etc.
MP
--
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
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