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Why no capships in high-sec?

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Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies 1085	Posted - 2017.04.15 11:38:50 - [31] - Quote As much as it would be cool on the one hand - the game works quite well progression and balance wise without them in high sec. However in some ways it would be nice if there was some way to mix them into the gameplay a bit more so that people can experience and potentially aspire towards them right from the start. (That and owning a capital in highsec is still an exclusive club).
oiukhp Muvila School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 157	Posted - 2017.04.15 13:00:57 - [32] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: ... GIVE ME YOUR BEST ARGUMENT. Go ahead, shoot. If it's one of the ones already presented here, I already said I'm not so impressed. If it's another one, let's hear it... A mind has to be open first before it can receive enlightenment. As for the capital thing... Yeah, the devs once thought that only a few Titans would ever be built because they took so much to build, which is why they were so OP when they were released. They made a lot of bad calls early in the game and we are still facing the consequences. Just because it sounds so cool doesn't mean it would be the best way to do it, in the long run.
Beast of Revelations Hedion University Amarr Empire 172	Posted - 2017.04.15 13:45:10 - [33] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Another carebear whine thread. "Wah, wah...I don't have the balls to go fly a Cap where they can be flown...CCP let me have a Cap in highsec where I can fap over my skillz with no risk". Pretty much sums it up. Want to fly the big ships, go fly one. Quit the carebear whinge and whine. Yet another poster with diarrhea of the mouth syndrome, opening his mouth and spewing all manner of BS about which he knows nothing. Yet another poster who thinks anyone who disagrees with him must be a 'carebear.' Etc. etc. etc. Predictable. I don't plan to fly capships in highsec. As I've stated, I don't think its a good ROI to do level 4s in them (and that's assuming level 4s could even be run, which most of them couldn't). I also wouldn't plan to mine in a carrier or dread (I don't even mine in ships specifically built for it). I just didn't see the point of artificial rules and limitations in something that was supposed to be a sandbox. About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear.
Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies 1085	Posted - 2017.04.15 14:17:59 - [34] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear. You can do that on the test server and better than high sec.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2017.04.15 14:34:00 - [35] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Another carebear whine thread. "Wah, wah...I don't have the balls to go fly a Cap where they can be flown...CCP let me have a Cap in highsec where I can fap over my skillz with no risk". Pretty much sums it up. Want to fly the big ships, go fly one. Quit the carebear whinge and whine. Yet another poster with diarrhea of the mouth syndrome, opening his mouth and spewing all manner of BS about which he knows nothing. Yet another poster who thinks anyone who disagrees with him must be a 'carebear.' Etc. etc. etc. Predictable. I don't plan to fly capships in highsec. As I've stated, I don't think its a good ROI to do level 4s in them (and that's assuming level 4s could even be run, which most of them couldn't). I also wouldn't plan to mine in a carrier or dread (I don't even mine in ships specifically built for it). I just didn't see the point of artificial rules and limitations in something that was supposed to be a sandbox. The sand at that end of the sandbox isn't deep enough. Quote: About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear. If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings. If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway.
Beast of Revelations Hedion University Amarr Empire 172	Posted - 2017.04.15 14:48:14 - [36] - Quote Coralas wrote: If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings. No reason to assume I'm 'risk averse,' I was just saying if I could think of something I'd do with it in highsec, undocking and taking it for a test run would be the only thing. Quote: If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway. Don't know why people who love to spout "it's a sandbox" every other word out of their mouths also want to tell others what they have and don't have a use for, and why. Maybe somebody just wants to see the damn thing sitting in his hanger.
Jenn aSide Absolute Massive Destruction Test Alliance Please Ignore 15578	Posted - 2017.04.15 15:01:26 - [37] - Quote Every single discussion of caps in high sec comes down to "I want to have my cake and eat it too" thinking. CCP was specifically asked during the last fanfest "why no capitals in high sec?". They said (paraphrasing) "because high sec is balanced for sub capitals and EVERYTHING would have to be changed to make them work without destroying the gameplay experience for everyone who doesn't have a capital ship". The people in high sec who think capitals are a good idea just don't understand how super rich 'bad guys' could use those to screw over everyone else (if you think it's bad for 'new players' right now, wait till that get blapped by a carrier's fighters when the carrier itself is 1000 km away). If you want capitals, go to the 87% of New Eden space that isn't high sec and have a blast. I do.
mkint 1717	Posted - 2017.04.15 15:07:15 - [38] - Quote OP: "I'm going to pretend my question is legitimate but then take the indefensible position because pointless arguing is the only way I can climax." Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies 1086	Posted - 2017.04.15 15:17:29 - [39] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The people in high sec who think capitals are a good idea just don't understand how super rich 'bad guys' could use those to screw over everyone else (if you think it's bad for 'new players' right now, wait till that get blapped by a carrier's fighters when the carrier itself is 1000 km away). If you want capitals, go to the 87% of New Eden space that isn't high sec and have a blast. I do. I'm not sure on that argument - someone flying a pimped out vindi or mach or whatever is going to rip a newer player a new one just as much as a carrier or dread could rip them a new one - it is just another step up the same ladder. In general though capitals would give older more experienced players the ability to leverage power that could significantly shift the balance of highsec especially as they would have far more control over who they are exposed to than when flying them in low, null or w-space.
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 1564	Posted - 2017.04.15 15:29:29 - [40] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Coralas wrote: If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings. No reason to assume I'm 'risk averse,' I was just saying if I could think of something I'd do with it in highsec, undocking and taking it for a test run would be the only thing. Quote: If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway. Don't know why people who love to spout "it's a sandbox" every other word out of their mouths also want to tell others what they have and don't have a use for, and why. Maybe somebody just wants to see the damn thing sitting in his hanger. Yes, but you cannot be sure it will be kept there. Unless you forbid them to undock, which would just cause another bottle of wine from the next capsuleer. Allowing caps freely in HS with or without guns loaded would most likely result in a massive change of nullsec politics regarding HS and the end of HS gameplay as we know it today for certain parts of HS space. Despite the changes to industry, HS will always remain part of nullsec logistics in some way or another. Adding power projection to that is only a good idea, if you have an overall plan for changing HS gameplay. And I doubt, that everybody in HS would be fond of that kind of change. Remove standings and insurance.

Beast of Revelations Hedion University Amarr Empire 172	Posted - 2017.04.15 15:38:27 - [41] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The people in high sec who think capitals are a good idea just don't understand how super rich 'bad guys' could use those to screw over everyone else (if you think it's bad for 'new players' right now, wait till that get blapped by a carrier's fighters when the carrier itself is 1000 km away). Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I'm not (and maybe I am), you've played the game far too long to display this kind of ignorance. If a capital blaps someone in highsec unprovoked, the capital is destroyed by CONCORD. So this is a laughably non-issue on the face of it. Look, at the end of the day, it's no big deal, and I really don't care that much either way. But it's kind of a shame that I've never even actually seen one of these things (yes, I've been to lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole space many times). I'd wager that most others haven't seen one either.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 585	Posted - 2017.04.15 15:58:51 - [42] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: I'd wager that most others haven't seen one either. That's part of the fun of caps. I still remember the first titan I saw, and was shocked just how big they are. Caps aren't that uncommon in low, me and a group of 3 others in cruisers have even been dropped by a frickin avatar so they are out there. A case for more AoE in EvE
Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies 1086	Posted - 2017.04.15 16:05:43 - [43] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Look, at the end of the day, it's no big deal, and I really don't care that much either way. But it's kind of a shame that I've never even actually seen one of these things (yes, I've been to lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole space many times). I'd wager that most others haven't seen one either. That is the other thing - capitals should be something special(ish) sort of - if they were made even more of a next logical step above battleship, etc. it would lose even more of that. Dunno how you've managed to play eve that long without running into a capital though heh.
mkint 1718	Posted - 2017.04.15 16:07:54 - [44] - Quote If you just want to see a capital ship, it's incredibly easy. Keep an eye on the map for where cynos get regularly lit, and then go hang out there for a while. I've seen more capitals just randomly wandering then I have in actual war time. And yeah, sure, capitals could be allowed in highsec. But the entirety of the game (even low/null/wh) is balanced around highsec not having capitals. So the game would basically need to be rewritten from the ground up. Capitals free to travel highsec will probably eventually happen, but it will be one of the signs of desperation that EVE is truly on it's last legs and out of good ideas and out of players. @OP, never ever use "but sandbox!" as an argument. If you want a true sandbox, the program you're looking for is called a C++ compiler. And even that could be considered too restrictive to be a true sandbox based on the way you use the term. "Sandbox" is a garbage term, and using it in an argument makes you have a garbage argument. All software has limits, good software has deliberate limits. Maxim 6. If violence wasnGÇÖt your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Coralas Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2017.04.15 16:14:50 - [45] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Coralas wrote: If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings. No reason to assume I'm 'risk averse,' I was just saying if I could think of something I'd do with it in highsec, undocking and taking it for a test run would be the only thing. Quote: If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway. Don't know why people who love to spout "it's a sandbox" every other word out of their mouths also want to tell others what they have and don't have a use for, and why. Maybe somebody just wants to see the damn thing sitting in his hanger. You are using the term sandbox yourself, you are in no position to complain about it being used. Also why does it matter if its in a lowsec hanger, if you don't have a real use for it. Also there are quite a few lowsec station systems that are sufficiently low pop for you to be able to pop out and clear a port anomoly (something with battleships) to get a feel for it, without being interrupted, just align the moment you get there.
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM 6617	Posted - 2017.04.15 16:14:54 - [46] - Quote Differences in space are a good thing. It's not a progression mechanic, it's to give you different choices in different places. Like Bubbles. Why no bubbles in lowsec? It's explicitly to make space different. And your 'sandbox' argument misses the whole point of a sandbox; a relatively common mistake. It's not "I can do whatever I want, wherever I want". It's "here are a bunch of tools and rules, have at it." Woo! CSM XI! Fuzzwork Enterprises Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 1671	Posted - 2017.04.15 16:20:25 - [47] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The people in high sec who think capitals are a good idea just don't understand how super rich 'bad guys' could use those to screw over everyone else (if you think it's bad for 'new players' right now, wait till that get blapped by a carrier's fighters when the carrier itself is 1000 km away). Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I'm not (and maybe I am), you've played the game far too long to display this kind of ignorance. If a capital blaps someone in highsec unprovoked, the capital is destroyed by CONCORD. So this is a laughably non-issue on the face of it. Look, at the end of the day, it's no big deal, and I really don't care that much either way. But it's kind of a shame that I've never even actually seen one of these things (yes, I've been to lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole space many times). I'd wager that most others haven't seen one either. So this is the "didn't really want to win that argument anyway" concession of defeat. Right, got it. You're one of those. You pick an arbitrary position contrary to the established status quo, argue it into the ground, ignore counter arguments, or cherry pick the parts you can successfully argue against, while ignoring the rest, and then when you reach the point where continuing would just make you look like a jackass, you adopt one of two positions: 1. Well, I don't really care - I'm not sure why you guys are making such a big deal about this, or 2. You say we just don't understand what you're trying to say because we're just not getting it. Trust me, we get it. You're an argumentative bastard troll. We all understand that. Message received captain. You can stop transmitting now. Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Arden Elenduil Unlimited Ripoff Works 461	Posted - 2017.04.15 17:04:43 - [48] - Quote I for one would love capitals in highsec. In fact, I own 2 in highsec (from way back, never moved them). I can do exactly nothing with them except cruise around in system, and perhaps occasionally mine with them. This is fine. I would also love to fight with capitals in highsec, but at the same time I realize the impact it should have, and therefore I would have to disagree with allowing them in. They would need significant nerfs and crap applied to them to make them even remotely balanced and eventually you'd be left with a steaming pile of dung.
Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies 1086	Posted - 2017.04.15 17:19:40 - [49] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: and perhaps occasionally mine with them. Mining Ninazu best Ninazu http://imgur.com/BKyQ86i
sero Hita Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 345	Posted - 2017.04.15 19:14:18 - [50] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if I'm not (and maybe I am), you've played the game far too long to display this kind of ignorance. If a capital blaps someone in highsec unprovoked, the capital is destroyed by CONCORD. So this is a laughably non-issue on the face of it. Who is talking about unprovoked though? Jenna, is not in the part you quoted. That is just a badly made assumption on your part, and high degree cherry picking. You are aware that you can bait people into agressing you, and then when they are flashy drop the Caps (who nobody can attack without getting conchorded)? This is what the super rich will do to the rest. Not attacking someone unprovoked.... "I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Arden Elenduil Unlimited Ripoff Works 462	Posted - 2017.04.15 19:32:17 - [51] - Quote Also, imagine station games played with capitals...yeah, not happening
Nicolai Serkanner Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 661	Posted - 2017.04.15 20:17:30 - [52] - Quote Hello Meow Kitty wrote: Hello Meow Kitty wrote: Why are cap ships in the game at all? No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months." Four year old newbie... still can not fly a capital but looking forward to the day I can.
Arden Elenduil Unlimited Ripoff Works 462	Posted - 2017.04.15 21:33:07 - [53] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Hello Meow Kitty wrote: Hello Meow Kitty wrote: Why are cap ships in the game at all? No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months." Four year old newbie... still can not fly a capital but looking forward to the day I can. Trust me, don't... Been there, done that, flew a supercap. Sold it again after a while
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 3136	Posted - 2017.04.15 22:49:36 - [54] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: Yet another poster with diarrhea of the mouth syndrome, opening his mouth and spewing all manner of BS about which he knows nothing. This is funny, because most of your posts rapidly betray the fact that your actual play experience is roughly zilch. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1643	Posted - 2017.04.16 00:51:08 - [55] - Quote Beast of Revelations wrote: About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear. Yes, it does. If you want to go try one. Go try one. Don't whinge and whine, asking for CCP to give you a safe way to test it. That's very carebear, so yes, you are a carebear and this is a carebear whinge thread. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Infinity Ziona Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2761	Posted - 2017.04.16 02:48:12 - [56] - Quote Hello Meow Kitty wrote: Why are cap ships in the game at all? Its a long story. Short answer - The reason you have battle ships with 200k ehp and then a weird jump from that to 2000,000 ehp then 20,000,000 ehp is CCP didn't have a long term plan and certain now fundamental mechanics like alliances, POS and their 10s of millions of HP were afterthoughts. You also had a very vocal group that developed who wanted carebears forced out of highsec for ganking purposes and demanded no new toys for that area. Very messy ad hoc development, worst I've seen in any game. CCP Fozzie GÇ£We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGÇª in null sec anomalies. GÇ£* Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sir BloodArgon Aulmais Fortis Fortuna Adiuvatt Dot Dot Dot 100	Posted - 2017.04.16 03:12:12 - [57] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: Nicolai Serkanner wrote: Four year old newbie... still can not fly a capital but looking forward to the day I can. Trust me, don't... Been there, done that, flew a supercap. Sold it again after a while Super capitals and regular capitals are quiet different. One is a floating coffin (much less with citadels tho) and the other is nearly as versatile as a regular ship. Carriers, rorquals, dreads, fax, all very fun ships to fly and you don't need to tie your pilot to them.
sci0gon Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering 80	Posted - 2017.04.16 03:48:46 - [58] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: Capitals were originally allowed in High Sec when they were introduced, but they created a bunch of problems so they were removed. If you could move or store Capitals in High Sec it would be incredibly easy to store power and project it out of High Sec, since the capitals could be stored in an NPC corp and have too much EHP to suicide gank they'd be effectively immune. This isn't some hypothetical, CCP originally allowed Capitals in High Sec and removed them intentionally after player feedback and their own observations. They removed them? From what I remember, they stopped the production of capitals in high sec, they were never removed. This is the reason why the rules of capital transactions were made in the sales section. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=437047&find=unread Also it wouldn't surprise me if some of the old carriers in high sec are now fax's due to the upgrades made previously converting carriers to fax's
Cade Windstalker 1328	Posted - 2017.04.16 04:36:50 - [59] - Quote sci0gon wrote: Cade Windstalker wrote: Capitals were originally allowed in High Sec when they were introduced, but they created a bunch of problems so they were removed. If you could move or store Capitals in High Sec it would be incredibly easy to store power and project it out of High Sec, since the capitals could be stored in an NPC corp and have too much EHP to suicide gank they'd be effectively immune. This isn't some hypothetical, CCP originally allowed Capitals in High Sec and removed them intentionally after player feedback and their own observations. They removed them? From what I remember, they stopped the production of capitals in high sec, they were never removed. This is the reason why the rules of capital transactions were made in the sales section. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=437047&find=unread Also it wouldn't surprise me if some of the old carriers in high sec are now fax's due to the upgrades made previously converting carriers to fax's Sorry I was unclear, by removed I mean they removed their ability to access High Sec. The current rule for the remaining capitals in HIgh Sec is that they are essentially vanity items only. They aren't allowed to affect the game in any significant way or be used for offensive combat actions. For example the Veldnaught gets used for mining and this is allowed because it doesn't mine very efficiently and almost any other ship would be a better choice. Similarly there used to be a mining Carrier off somewhere in Caldari space before Carriers got their drones removed. I believe that one is now a FAX.
Cade Windstalker 1328	Posted - 2017.04.16 05:02:06 - [60] - Quote Infinity Ziona wrote: Hello Meow Kitty wrote: Why are cap ships in the game at all? Its a long story. Short answer - The reason you have battle ships with 200k ehp and then a weird jump from that to 2000,000 ehp then 20,000,000 ehp is CCP didn't have a long term plan and certain now fundamental mechanics like alliances, POS and their 10s of millions of HP were afterthoughts. You also had a very vocal group that developed who wanted carebears forced out of highsec for ganking purposes and demanded no new toys for that area. Very messy ad hoc development, worst I've seen in any game. Lol! If you think this is the worst development you've seen in any game then you haven't played enough games... For what it's done and how long it's lasted, not to mention the complete lack of any of the "Raise the level cap and kill the old end-game" style wallpapering some other games have done to refresh their design, Eve has done a pretty good job all things considered. Also as to why we have Capital Ships in the game at all it's not a long story. Someone at CCP said (paraphrased) 'It'd be really cool if we had these big capital ships in the game!' and some other devs went 'yeah that sounds awesome!' and so did some players and so we got capital ships. The removal of Cap Ships from High Sec had nothing to do with "no new toys" they were never supposed to be there in the first place. CCP determined it was bad to allow them to be built there at all so they removed the ability.



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