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Valarkin
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Posted - 2007.05.07 18:50:00 -
[1]
Frustration is the result of an experience not matching the expectations one had for that experience. I am sure I am not alone in my confusion and frustration over the changes to missions which were delivered this patch.
Missions have changed level, low level rats are now using NOS and Smart Bombs, and my beloved L4 missions are unrecognisable; in some cases even unsurvivable to me as a solo mission runner.
Let's take a look at a few of the changes to L4 missions the Dev's told us to expectwhat (Feb 2007 Blog): - Level 4 will become closer to Level 3 in difficulty, the jump up will not be as drastic as it is now.
- Level 5 will be the new level, consisting partly of the most difficult Level 4 missions, but mainly new missions.
- New missions in Levels 4 and up will focus on the escalating warfare between the Empires and factions. This incidentally enables you to engage Dreadnoughts, Carriers and Motherships.
The proposed changes caused a bit of furore, and there was a
second blog from Oveur on the subject.
As I said, I am confused and a bit frustrated with the changes in this last patch. Instead of finding that "Level 4['s had]become closer to Level 3 in difficulty" my experience has been that Level 4's now consist partly of the most difficult Level 4 missions, [and] new missions.
The domi-tank I used to use for Gurista's Extra (T2 LAR, 4xT2 specific hards) now loses armour like there were no tank there at all.
So: What happened between the changes as described and the latest update?
It seems easy enough to avoid this kind of frustration in your player base: if you are going to heavily publicise a feature set make sure you either meet that publicity or explain the changes to what was originally described.
Without being as belligerent as I fear it will make me sound, I find it inconceivable that the disparity between the changes as described and the changes actually delivered didn't show up in testing. It took me one L4 mission to think... 'hmmmm this seems much harder than the last time I ran it...'
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.05.07 18:54:00 -
[2]
Gurista's Extraveganza was the first mission I did after the patch, which was immediately after the DT. I was among the first to comment on the new triggers.
I had no problem with it. In fact, I enjoyed the challenge. Yes I had to warp out a few times, but solo'ing missions does not mean that you have to complete the entire mission in one go. It's a nice tactical decision to have to make, as to when to warp out or not. (Sorry, that sentance is horrible, been working on my dissertation all day  )
-J
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"He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson
Balanced != Nerfed |
Valarkin
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Posted - 2007.05.07 19:02:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Valarkin on 07/05/2007 19:00:17
It's not that the changes are necessarily bad, just that the discrepancy between 'as drawn' and 'as built' is severe in the extreme.
In my experience it never serves a company to create expectations for one thing among its customer base then deliver something which is not only significantly different from, but is also significantly more dangerous than, the promised product.
A quick analogy would be Ford promising a safer, more efficient 2008 family car then delivering a 1975 Pinto, with rear bumper activated barbecue grill and interior...
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:24:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
Instead of finding that "Level 4['s had]become closer to Level 3 in difficulty" my experience has been that Level 4's now consist partly of the most difficult Level 4 missions, [and] new missions.
That promises you listed above were made for rev 2.0, when lvl5-7 will be introduced, so if lvl4s were not made easier with the last patch this has nothing to do with the promise.
Since the ships were buffed in the last months (more hp, rigs etc.) i think it's ok to make some of the lvl4s harder, so that they are still a challenge for the solo-player.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.07 20:28:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Andrue on 07/05/2007 20:24:48
Change is good - it prevents boredom and stagnation. Eve in 2007 is not the same as Eve was in 2004 when I started playing and I thank CCP for that. I would only have lasted for six months if they didn't keep monkeying with it.
I guess the fact that I'm still here after three years means that I have the ability to adapt to change. If you don't have that ability you get frustrated. Sucks to be that kind of person I guess.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
JamnOne
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Posted - 2007.05.07 22:49:00 -
[6]
They did make lvl 4s closer to lvl3s. How do you ask? They made lvl 3s more challenging. And some lvl 4 missions if I still had a normal cruiser by I am sure I could do with that. Not all of them - just a couple. I can usually tell by how long I have to work at the mission to get the bonus isk to determine if it is an easy mission or not.
Plus it does help having sites that tell about the different missions like eveinfo.com. There is another one I use can't remember it right now.
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Sinclair Lou
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Posted - 2007.05.07 23:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Andrue
Edited by: Andrue on 07/05/2007 20:24:48
Change is good - it prevents boredom and stagnation. Eve in 2007 is not the same as Eve was in 2004 when I started playing and I thank CCP for that. I would only have lasted for six months if they didn't keep monkeying with it.
I guess the fact that I'm still here after three years means that I have the ability to adapt to change. If you don't have that ability you get frustrated. Sucks to be that kind of person I guess.
Indeed, I like the newly introduce mission system. CCP finally made a distinct offer to improve the relevant poor image in the P v E. As an always solo mission runner, I must say well done to the dev team and look foward to the introduction of lvl 5 mission.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.05.07 23:49:00 -
[8]
You're confusing different things: the Revelations 2 (anticipated) mission expansion and reorganization; and ongoing tweaks, many of which seem to be part of the "Need For Speed" initiative.
Some missions, at least, appear to have gotten even easier by the way.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.05.08 00:52:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 08/05/2007 00:49:55
Quote:
,,,in some cases even unsurvivable to me as a solo mission runner.
*cough*
It seems some people still think the [at-present] most difficult missions *must* be soloable.
So I've ignored the rest of your post, and with good reason because of that statement.
Improve Market Competition! |
Elspeth Vigneron
Caldari
Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.08 02:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Valarkin
Edited by: Valarkin on 07/05/2007 19:00:17
It's not that the changes are necessarily bad, just that the discrepancy between 'as drawn' and 'as built' is severe in the extreme.
In my experience it never serves a company to create expectations for one thing among its customer base then deliver something which is not only significantly different from, but is also significantly more dangerous than, the promised product.
A quick analogy would be Ford promising a safer, more efficient 2008 family car then delivering a 1975 Pinto, with rear bumper activated barbecue grill and interior...
Hey, I had one of those (1974)...
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Exlegion
New Light
KnightRaven Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.08 02:28:00 -
[11]
Of course this is just my opinion, but I was actually hoping they wouldn't 'dumb down' level 4 missions. They were easy enough as they were. So the new level 4's are a welcomed change in my books. I hadn't warped out of a mission in a while, but these new missions are forcing me to rethink strategies  .
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Sinnead Bachmann
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Posted - 2007.05.08 04:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sinnead Bachmann on 08/05/2007 04:21:54
It is amazing to me what meaning people will put into others' words so they might appear:
Originally by: Condescending
Sucks to be that kind of person I guess.
Originally by: "Insightful"
It seems some people still think the [at-present] most difficult missions *must* be soloable.
Originally by: "Superior"
So I've ignored the rest of your post, and with good reason because of that statement.
While evidencing a complete lack of the most basic reading comprehension.
Where did I say change was bad? That all missions must be soloable? Get a grip people.
If you honestly do not see how two blogs pertaining to the subject specifically and containing little tid bits like:
Originally by: "Oveur"
What has already been done is the revisiting of 70% of the most used content on Tranquility, using Triggers and such. This is to freshen up the content, make it less predictable and of course a big part of the Need of Speed.
These revisited missions are all coming in tomorrow as part of Revelations 1.4, so here is a promise.We'll both see how those changes pan out, we'll mine the data and you will compare your experience with what it is today, we'll then see if there is still a need to move certain mission from Level 4 to Level 5. .
What part of that is confusing? 70% of the most used content.... all coming out tomorrow..watch the balance of L4's and 5's.
Seems pretty straight forward to me. I read the blog in February which guesstimated release for the new feature set in Rev 2.0. Then, a report intended to clear up the confusion caused by the first blog said that 70% of the most used content had been revised and was being released in toto.
Whats so hard about that?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.08 08:03:00 -
[13]
What I find annoying in the revised missions, and it is the same thing that make a good number of them more hard, is the lack of tactical data.
In th new missions the NPC make extended use of EW, but I have no system to know who is using the different modules on me, and what is using.
Doing a blood raider mission I could see my capacitor charge disappear, but to confirm that someone is NOSsing me I need to change and rotate my camera view till I see the red stream leaving my ship, but I don't see what ship is doing that.
That is absurd, my ship has tons of electronic equipments but is incapable of saing to me this ship is NOSsing you?
Again, when target beging to disappear I am under the effect of ECM or target dampers?
The bar mean I am the target of a target painter or a tracking disruptor? and who is doing that?
and so on.
some of you will suggest to look the data dump from CCP to know what ship do what, but 1) the only one I know is old and outdated; 2) it is metagaming, and would be nicer if we could know that with in game systems.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.05.08 09:40:00 -
[14]
I like new and revisited level 4 missions.
They are doable quite fine solo with just regular T2 tank as long as you pay attention and learn the triggers. Granted, they tend to hurt drone users, but this is no fault of missions but rather general drone issue of them picking their own targets of opportunity.
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Joshua Deakin
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.05.08 20:55:00 -
[15]
Well Blood Raiders lvl4 The Blockade was interesting. It had different spawns from running them back to back. At first I fitted my Domi with 5 Heavy Diminishing NOS, heavy electrochem cap booster and lows full of power diags (5) / cap flux coils (2) to have enough buffer for the nossing npcs. The first time the tactic seemed to work. Had some nossing but not very serious at any stage. From my journal I checked and regrouped the npcs in excel checking combined dps and possible nossers (elfarto npc website). At most it seemed the max drain was about 35 cap/s at a distance of 10km. Fine. I could handle that with my normal tank (unorthodox shield tank).
Big suprise. The first spawn went down nicely but the second spawned Elder Corpum Sages (3-4) instead of three Corpum Arch Templars. The Elders nossed me from their spawn point (well over 10km, say 30km) for 75-100 cap/s (75% chance). So while at first it seemed my 70 cap/s recharge rate would be able to sustain it the total max cap was so low that these Elders quickly dropped it below 30%. And unfortunately I had to leave my T2 Ogres behind as I was worried they would drain the cap completely and I would be stuck losing the faction fittings and all.
So if you're going against the Bloods be sure to have a quick ship / lots of cap / good dps to be able to survive it.
Smartbombs, which faction uses these? Does it mean my drones are mincemeat?
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.05.08 22:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Valarkin
...
The domi-tank I used to use for Gurista's Extra (T2 LAR, 4xT2 specific hards) now loses armour like there were no tank there at all.
...
IMHO one T2 repper with 4 hardeners is not enough for many L4s. |
Talio ZomB
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Posted - 2007.05.11 15:02:00 -
[17]
lvl 4 missions are not hard enough
lvl 4 missions do not reward enough
they are lag inducing, still soloable, mundane fields of red
look at other MMORPGs where guilds/clans/groups are brought together to conquour an instance/quest/mission and work together towards beating a scenario and boss.
eve just doesnt have that. difficulty comes from EW and large swarms of feeble npcs
too many ppl are satisfied with this
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Enduros
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Posted - 2007.05.11 15:24:00 -
[18]
Actually ONE t2 repper and 4 hardeners IS enough, provided you just don't sit there and tank it all. Guess what, SHIPS CAN MOVE, thaaats right. You can outfly most things.
I understand that an x-type fitted cookie-cutting cnr with a crystal set doesn't need it, fine. You spend billions on gaining the ability to just sit there and tank pretty much anything, you deserve it. Unfortunately not everyone has one nor wants one.
The new mission triggers are a placed rather badly. What kind of genius decided to make eWar ships the triggers. Usually that is the first thing you kill. Missile boats aren't effected much. But what about gunships? I NEED to move to kill things and if I get webbed It severely hinders my DPS and my tank. First off things get on top and I can't hit them at point blank. Secondly things that hit hard get in optimal and therefor hit HARDER, not a good thing. Logically you kill off the webbers and ones with tracking disruptors etc..
But wait. Now you can't, cause if you touch them you will end up tanking even more.
And another thing. We could really use something to counter missiles. Most NPC except angels and guristas are outflyable. Can't outfly guristas, range on those missiles is disgusting and no way to avoid them. Give us some working point defense, defenders are a joke mind you.
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Egil Kolsto
Caldari
Collwood Collective
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Posted - 2007.05.11 15:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Talio ZomB
lvl 4 missions are not hard enough
lvl 4 missions do not reward enough
they are lag inducing, still soloable, mundane fields of red
look at other MMORPGs where guilds/clans/groups are brought together to conquour an instance/quest/mission and work together towards beating a scenario and boss.
eve just doesnt have that. difficulty comes from EW and large swarms of feeble npcs
too many ppl are satisfied with this
You DID read the blogs right? The whole idea of the higher level new agents are JUST that.
Unless you have just started running missions they ARE being changed. Prior missions FILLED with small useless and boring ships are now replaced with fewer and bigger.
Personally, albeit slowly, I think CCP is doing a great job making the game entertaining for us that are very reluctant to take part in what the game IS supposed to be about, pvp. I still have my two accounts and a year later I still enjoy missions even though I am slowly getting lured towards building a Frigate or Cruiser and send a jump clone down towards 0.0.
Eve is a great game with the flaws/challenges it has, missions are ALL do-able solo as long as you play cautiously. The bonus is there for when you have done the mission a few times, the whole idea that each mission should take 20 minutes or less is somewhat insane. You are running level 4 missions (aka want the hardest there is), then use the best there is and you have zero problem. Trying to make due with less than the best trying to do the hardest then expect it to be harder.
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Red Rumurder
5punkorp
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.11 17:45:00 -
[20]
i ♥ the changes, less frigs makes mission running faster. the triggers are easy to recognize (knew all the missions b4 patch by heart so seeing the differences wasn't too bad) only think i wish is if they would do something with massive attack sanasha, right now i still see it as a tough lvl 3. before you say get out of your raven i fly all race bs except minitar and the megathron.
i want to know more details about the LP bank to be truthful. what can we get and will it be like a tab in your menus or will it be a station like jita 4-4 where you go to collect, will it still be same stuff in offers now or will we get chance for officer mods too?
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