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BMBE Discussion - Accusations, lies, assumptions and a couple of BPOs

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Sister 9 Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Sister 9 on 08/05/2007 17:00:28 comment deleted forgot can't post in this forum :(
Sin Angel Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.08 17:36:00 - [32] Ive had my differences with torn but i doubt he in any way intended to scam anybody. To the best of my knowledge in the past torn has recorded loss from the BIG lottery this funnily enough does not get mentioned when discussing his personal character. Unforseen cirtumstances may of appeared but they were never his intention and i dont see investors suffering for this as torn usually finds a way to recover from problems. Attempting to publically shame a player who has not intentionally harmed anybody is poor form in my books. This is of course my own opinion and represents only myself and my own views not those of my corperation, alliance, pets or anybody else. -Sin
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Sin Angel Ive had my differences with torn but i doubt he in any way intended to scam anybody. To the best of my knowledge in the past torn has recorded loss from the BIG lottery this funnily enough does not get mentioned when discussing his personal character. Unforseen cirtumstances may of appeared but they were never his intention and i dont see investors suffering for this as torn usually finds a way to recover from problems. Attempting to publically shame a player who has not intentionally harmed anybody is poor form in my books. This is of course my own opinion and represents only myself and my own views not those of my corperation, alliance, pets or anybody else. -Sin I'm not really sure why this has been moved to CAOD (this isn't a political matter, it's a market matter), buuuut... At the very least TornSoul is inept and lacks integrity, and at the most he was trying to pull off something that's just 1 step below outright scamming/theft. TS lost 30% of the BMBE capital on a bad loan: a pair of Skiff BPOs that anyone with a brain knew why they were so expensive (carrier storage) and that CCP was going to nerf the things real soon. That's being inept, the loan obviously should have never been made. All this time, TS has continued to pull his usual share of management fees. Additionally, he couldn't be bothered to tell the investors what was really going on as far as the loss went(claiming that BMBE still has 100bil+ in assets) and continues to this day to refuse to apologize or state some sort of plans for how he's going to fix everything. TS has no integrity, if he did he would have done the opposite of the above. TornSoul can no longer be trusted. Whether it was intentional or not (I believe it was), he's clearly unfit to run a business operation, and deserves all the shaming he gets. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Sortiario The short story is that the BMBE reports had a discrepancy, indicating the investors was being frauded by the BMBE management. After serious debate, it came to public knowledge that the discrepancy was due to a 30 billion loss because of a default loan BMBE made. Semi cover-up made by management, accusations of lying from both parties and general bad tone in the debate has been the Market Forum style the last 4 days. Again one must point out Big Lie in action. But, as someone pointed out here, this is no surprise as COAD doesn't care about truth... just drama and bullcrap. The sad part is that this whole debate was moved here instead of being left where it had been. We now get to see whole new joy-joy levels of spin, anti-spin, and counter-under-the-belt screw-your-brother win-at-all cost spin. I need to call my local Walmart and see how much popcorn they stock. My personal summary of what happened to BMBE. The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Verite Rendition I'm not really sure why this has been moved to CAOD (this isn't a political matter, it's a market matter), buuuut... It's indeed a political matter. It contains market discussions, yes, *but the main subject of debate is the management and communication of/from BMBE - which is highly political -* and the integrity of Eefrit and TornSoul. Originally by:** Verite Rendition At the very least TornSoul is inept and lacks integrity, and at the most he was trying to pull off something that's just 1 step below outright scamming/theft. TS lost 30% of the BMBE capital on a bad loan: a pair of Skiff BPOs that anyone with a brain knew why they were so expensive (carrier storage) and that CCP was going to nerf the things real soon. That's being inept, the loan obviously should have never been made. All this time, TS has continued to pull his usual share of management fees. Additionally, he couldn't be bothered to tell the investors what was really going on as far as the loss went(claiming that BMBE still has 100bil+ in assets) and continues to this day to refuse to apologize or state some sort of plans for how he's going to fix everything. TS has no integrity, if he did he would have done the opposite of the above. TornSoul can no longer be trusted. Whether it was intentional or not (I believe it was), he's clearly unfit to run a business operation, and deserves all the shaming he gets. Remember that TornSoul had had to deal with scammers inside his own corporation before, defending them in good faith, but later admitting it was a wrong decision. I'd not be surprised if someone inside BMBE or BIG had defaulted the loan and had gained personally from it. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Verite Rendition and continues to this day to refuse to apologize or state some sort of plans for how he's going to fix everything He has apologised in Report #15 and I have taken it upon myself to come up with a plan for regaining equity. I am more than happy to listen to viable options, which can be posted in Report #15. I am eager to discuss this with as many interested parties as possible. \| Get A Loan For That Must Have Ship / Module \| BMBE ISK Loans \|
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Sortiario I'd not be surprised if someone inside BMBE or BIG had defaulted the loan and had gained personally from it. This is no place for conjecture. That claim is patently false, I guarantee my reputation on it and will glady pay the full 30b if it is proved to be true. But until someone convinces TS to post the details of the defaultor we will not release any information regarding it. \| Get A Loan For That Must Have Ship / Module \| BMBE ISK Loans \|
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Sortiario I'd not be surprised if someone inside BMBE or BIG had defaulted the loan and had gained personally from it. This is no place for conjecture. That claim is patently false, I guarantee my reputation on it and will glady pay the full 30b if it is proved to be true. But until someone convinces TS to post the details of the defaultor we will not release any information regarding it. I have not stated that is what I think. I just wouldn't be surprised, considering something similar has happened before. Until either thing is proven, I feel confident that BMBE can deliver good, trustworthy services. Even since the recent case. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service

Kaemonn Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.08 19:49:00 - [39] Please do not cross post threads. Thanks. forum rules \| [email protected]\| Eve-CCG

Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.08 20:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Verite Rendition and continues to this day to refuse to apologize or state some sort of plans for how he's going to fix everything He has apologised in Report #15 and I have taken it upon myself to come up with a plan for regaining equity. I am more than happy to listen to viable options, which can be posted in Report #15. I am eager to discuss this with as many interested parties as possible. No, he hasn't. I'm still waiting for "I'm sorry"; what he's done so far is to try to deflect any blame for the incident placed upon himself. As for what can be done, you already know: return your management fees and stop collecting them until all the ISK has been returned. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Florio Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.08 21:06:00 - [41] Edited by: Florio on 08/05/2007 21:03:24 Originally by: TornSoul It's a matter of me not breaking confidentiality - Unless you can come up with a good (enough to convince me) argument why that would not be an issue in this case. (i) confidentiality must always be an issue, but be selfish and consider the reputation loss for each course of action. (ii) the defaulter broke your trust in him before you even considered breaking his trust in you. edit/ ffs this is caod not market, ah buggerit :(
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.05.09 02:37:00 - [42] Sortiario, No fricken idea why you thought this conversation needed to be moved here to COAD. This conversation in the locked threads in the "Market Discussion" area of the forums, while heated were still better than the most of the degenerate threads that happen in COAD. All that will happen is either trolls/the uninformed will just stir the pot more, throwing out the "SCAM" word, or it will slip off the first page with no further conversation. This topic is important, we do need to discuss it, some of us need not get so worked up and take things personally. This has been at its core a discussion of management of public assests, held in trust by a CEO of a public corp, and what we as shareholders of public corps can expect in way of communication and accounting from the CEO's of those corps. Honestly this should have stayed in "Market Discussions". -------- To the COAD regulars, There is no evidence of a SCAM, NONE. Bad business decissions, yes. Bad communication of those decissions, yes. Misreporting of those decisions on finacial balance sheets, yes. Some of the particapants of the orginal threads did resort to childlike name calling and poo flinging, but thats to be expected when things that people are passionate about, come under fire. -------------- To the MODS, Thank you for allowing us to continue this conversation, even if it is in a foreign sub forum directory. Hopefully next time we can contain our exuberance in the normally polite and civil "Market Discussion" area of the forums, and not be kicked up to COAD. <3 ISD -- FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Omber Zombie's Wet Work
Danari Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.09 02:57:00 - [43] Anyone who hands unsecured isk to any one of these ipos in my opinion has failed due diligence. In that context, leave BIG alone.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.05.09 06:44:00 - [44] Having read most of the relevant threads since it was put here in COAD, after all I don't visit the market forums often, I do not believe TornSoul was attempting to scam or do anything of the nature. He has shown time and again that he has integrity. He has been trusted with hundreds of billions, with rare ships and equipment on an ongoing basis since BIG Lottery began, as well as since BMBE was founded. If only one loan has failed in the history of BMBE then indeed we have been fortunate for that corporation and its shareholders. That's a pretty good success rate actually. It means that TornSoul has operated a good outfit. Most real life banks have much higher default rates, and considering this is a game and the nature of this game its surprising there aren't more. It was mentioned in the report following the default that a loan was defaulted. However more details might should have been included. At the time of the default it appears that TornSoul and others decided to put the BPOs into production instead of selling them. A risk venture, but one that at the time they could have reasonably seen as making more money long term. Why they didn't reveal this to all is unknown but it is clear there were a number of folks who where aware of it. Now around the holidays CCP basically enacted an act of god. In such that invention was born. For the first few months prices stayed relatively steady as folks learned the new system. No doubt TornSoul felt that perhaps invention wouldn't have as big an impact as originally thought. He made a gamble to continue producing the Skiffs. Let's look at one of my own recent ventures. A corpmate of mine, Kolbie, approached me a couple weeks ago asked if I could build Hulks. I said I had the skills but didn't have the bpo or bpcs. He said well there's one on Jita for auction, if you can build em I'll buy it. So okay we checked a few markets price at the time was around 300 million. So we decided to take the risk. We'll we all know the hulk market has crashed recently significantly crashed. Such at this point it clearly obvious that Kolbie and I will take a loss, primarily Kolbie since the majority of the money put in was his. It was a risk venture, and it didn't pan out, looked okay in the week we started and by the time the first rolled off the line it was clear we might be in trouble, a week later its pretty sure we're in trouble. I think TornSoul was caught in a similar situation. He made a gamble as often folks do. He's done a pretty good job running BMBE. He does a good job running BIG Lottery. The efforts of some to drag him through the mud and soil his name because of perhaps a single error, isn't really justice. Its like a bunch of vultures circling. I do not believe he intentionally lied, no evidence supports that he did. He did mention the default loan, didn't give its value but it is clear it had previously been mentioned. A good number of shareholders, perhaps the ones holding the most shares, seem to have been aware and even given tacit approval of the Skiff construction. Anyway I think we should all take a step back and stop the attacks both on TornSoul. Eefrit clearly has alternative motives. It is clear he has been aware of the information for months. That he clearly phrased his revelations in such a way as to imply Torn was skimming or stealing from BMBE which isn't true and Eefrit knew that wasn't the case. He tried to cast Tornsoul in the worst light and the wolves quickly seem to have swarmed. EVE would be a much worse place without TornSoul. He has done much good in events and other efforts for the community. He could have at any time taken far more than 30 billion and never has. He has taken from his own funds to cover BIG Lottery in the past. He has proven time and again that he is honest and hard working. We all make mistakes and I do not feel we should destroy someone over a single mistake. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.09 07:06:00 - [45] While I appreciate the fact that you are defending Tornsoul Mecinia, your timeline is WAY off. What torpedoed the value of the BPOs was a patch whereby the Skiff's primary purpose (as a haul ship inside of carriers) was completely removed without any notice. It seems that the person who defaulted in the loan knew about this ahead of time and took advantage of the BMBE to effect a quick sale of his BPOs. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Sortiario Fair Trade Organization	Posted - 2007.05.09 07:12:00 - [46] Edited by: Sortiario on 09/05/2007 07:08:21 Treelox, I admit it wasn't the smartest idea, and you may flame me for doing it. I guess my intentions didn't match the killing nature of CAOD. :-) There's still an active discussion in there with Market players almost solely, and as some posters here have stated, they don't read market forum that much, and some potentially bring new information, point of views or oppinions. I did not post it in order to spread the word that TornSoul is a bad manager, or Eefrit is a lying thief. People may read for themselves, and make their own decisions on who to believe. I hope. ___________________ Sortiario Communication Consulting - SCConsult Communication advisory service
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:35:00 - [47] A summarised timeline according to Eefrit 1) About a year ago BMBE issue a loan of 30 Bill Isk for 2 x Skiff BPOs. Whoever this loan was made out to (we still don't know, but that is a non-issue) defaulted on the loan, which left BMBE 30 Bill Isk down but holding 2 x Skiff BPOs. 2) That month, in BMBE report # 4 TornSoul stated that there had been a default. He stated that "very much a matter of PoV thing about this defaulted loan is that the BMBE now again has some ready ISK at hand (once the BPO's have sold)". Although not explicity stated, it implies that there is an intention to sell them off. To this day that has not happened. 3) In the same report, (report #4) TornSoul states that "The total value of all 2000 BMBE shares are 101.44B ISK. Which is the ammount available for loans. At this point you could claim he is taking a shortcut on valuing the BPOs and for accounting purposes and valuing them at the defaulted Isk amount. We don't know for sure that TornSoul believed this was no longer the case at this point, so it would really just be a case of lazy accounting. 4) That is the last report, until after this came to light via my initial post on the matter, in which the default was reported on to the public. We had no idea that the default had not been recovered from, and no idea that BMBE was still holding onto the BPOs more than a year later. Essentially BMBE was witholding the fact from shareholders that their total share value was no longer 100 Bill Isk, but had droped to about 70 Bill Isk. This may not be something that most people consider "too bad", but as a mirror to real life it goes beyond what happened with the whole Enron scandal. 5) In the BMBE report 2 months later (report #6) Tornsoul once again states that: "Total BMBE capital now : 102.788B ISK This equals a "value" of 51.394M ISK per share" He has said he knew that the Skiff BPOs were valued at about 2-3 Bill Isk each before the time of this report, but still reports that there has been no loss to shareholders. As clear a lie as you will ever see, and not to enemies, but to people who have invested Isk with him on the basis of trust. 6) In early December 2006 I took out a personal loan from BMBE to the value of 50 Bill Isk. By Mid January 2007 the loan had been paid back in full and was closed. 7) 20 April 2007 - As part of a greater strategy to remove some competiton from the loans business before FIN-U (an new investment company that I run) I offered a paper buyout to BMBE shareholders in which I proposed that they reduce the net capital by 20 Bill Isk, and offer it to TornSoul as a sort of severance package. In return I would reduce the BMBE management fee from it's current level of 50% of distributed profits to 20% of distributed profits. At this time I still believed that BMBE had over 100 Bill Isk in assets, and had not completed any due diligence yet. 8) As part of my due diligence I started checking published figures with each other and with the only other information that I had - namely the profit they should have made from my loan in December. I found large discrepancies that I could not explain. continued...
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.09 10:36:00 - [48] Reserved for continuation.
Phoenix Pryde Caldari 3-I Area 42	Posted - 2007.05.09 11:34:00 - [49] oh, more IPO drama ... always fun The 'bank' thing is always somewhat uneasy. There s always a risk of scams, there is always the risk that CCP makes some changes that screws with the concept or makes problems, or it doesnt makes much sense in the first place because of collateral. Anybody buying shares in -any- such venture should be aware of it. There is (partially large) risk, the ppl involved will make mistakes every now and then, etc ... In regard to IPO's or the 2 parties in conflict .. I guess both parties are as integer as they come when it comes to IPO's with some history. That said, your ventures and capital acquisition via IPO are for sure not charitable or just a service for the public of Eve out of own good. They are a means to earn ISK. The really funny thing is though, i dont think this serves any of the two parties. Some publicity sure. Maybe one can buy the other, who knows. But if you ask me you just both suffer in reputation ...
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.09 12:16:00 - [50] Edited by: Rthor on 09/05/2007 12:14:03 Originally by: Eefrit A summarised timeline according to Eefrit 1) About a year ago BMBE issue a loan of 30 Bill Isk for 2 x Skiff BPOs. Whoever this loan was made out to (we still don't know, but that is a non-issue) defaulted on the loan, which left BMBE 30 Bill Isk down but holding 2 x Skiff BPOs. Why is the identity of that person deemed a non-issue? Imagine these scenarios: -that person is a BIG member or Tornsoul's friend. Then this is an outright scam. -that person is a 1 day alt. Then Tornsoul looks even more incompetent. -that person is Eefrit's alt. This we may never know but that would be even more interesting. It just seems odd that Tornsoul feels the need to protect the identity of that person for some reason. Now Eefrit also says that it does not matter who it is. And the person who did this did not tell anybody that they just scammed Tornsoul, a celebrity, out of 30 billion. It just does not make any sense.
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.09 13:53:00 - [51] I am not really involved in this conflict, but it has nevertheless raised the profile of both corporations and really put the spotlight on a service I knew very little about. It seems today in EvE that people beleive that if you invest in a business, and it does not make a profit, then it is a scam. What is clear to me from everything that has been posted is that TornSoul made a bad call and then did not come clean in a direct manner. Its really a catch 22. You come clean and admit that a screw up occured because of a CCP change to the game, and you get accused of scamming. You put in subtle implications that point to the truth but dont quite spell it out (interspersed with a few lies here and there) and then wait for the accusations of scamming or lying to appear months later. I think we, as a community with a complex market system, have to appreciate the difference between legitimate business losses and scams. I think corporations like ISS that buy back shares or find other ways to compensate shareholders for losses are promoting a socialist-style compensating schemes that are counterproductive in EvE. ----
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Rthor Why is the identity of that person deemed a non-issue? Imagine these scenarios: -that person is a BIG member or Tornsoul's friend. Then this is an outright scam. -that person is a 1 day alt. Then Tornsoul looks even more incompetent. -that person is Eefrit's alt. This we may never know but that would be even more interesting. It just seems odd that Tornsoul feels the need to protect the identity of that person for some reason. Now Eefrit also says that it does not matter who it is. And the person who did this did not tell anybody that they just scammed Tornsoul, a celebrity, out of 30 billion. It just does not make any sense. Rthor, I think you missed the context of my statement. I meant it is a non-issue with regards to things that have not been done within the scope of the business plan. There are solid arguments both for and against releasing the information, and imho there is no clear cut solution overall. Personally I would like to have the details revealed first without the names so we can see if anything dodgy happened. If it is clear that it was done as an attempt to enrich whoever took out the loan rather than just a default on a loan they intended to go bad - then I would argue it would be an easy decision. I'm all for naming and shaming if the loan was taken in bad faith. TBH, I had not thought of the possibilities you mention, and yes, taking that into account does pose an even stronger argument for releasing the information if not the name, and I would support that move. Sincerely, Eefrit
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:35:00 - [53] Do we really need to have the same discussions in two different sets of threads? This is stupid ;O The Enemy's Gate is Down
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.09 17:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 09/05/2007 15:21:47 I am not really involved in this conflict, but it has nevertheless raised the profile of both corporations and really put the spotlight on a service I knew very little about. It seems today in EvE that people beleive that if you invest in a business, and it does not make a profit, then it is a scam. What is clear to me from everything that has been posted is that TornSoul made a bad call and then did not come clean in a direct manner. Its really a catch 22. You come clean and admit that a screw up occured because of a CCP change to the game, and you get accused of scamming. You put in subtle implications that point to the truth but dont quite spell it out (interspersed with a few lies here and there) and then wait for the accusations of scamming or lying to appear months later. I think we, as a community with a complex market system, have to appreciate the difference between legitimate business losses and scams. I think corporations like ISS that buy back shares or find other ways to compensate shareholders for losses are promoting socialist-style compensating schemes that are counterproductive in EvE. I agree Saladin, but I would argue this is really the case. Take the example of when Moppeaux O'Mara lost a freighter due to a really n00bish mistake. He reported it, and he recieved very little flack from it because he was open and honest with his investors. ALL of us have made stupid mistakes in this game (if you think you haven't then a really big one is waiting for you!). My primary problem with the affair is not the defaulted loan. I don't believe it was a dishonest scam, but I do believe it was a silly mistake. Mistakes can be forgiven without much fuss. The coverup and lies are the major issue here. It has been said that no party gained by the exposure, and in most ways proponents of that view would be right, but I do not hold to it entirely. To a certain extent public trust is based on the trust in the market in general and not just specifics (Look how hard it was to get investment after the EIB fiasco as an example). The market needs to be seen to be regulating itself and not to be one big old boys club where you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. It is incestuaous enough with people worrying about that as well. From here on out I sincerely wish BMBE well and hope that changes are made in such a way that favour investors over managers. I look forward to some good market competition with FIN-U launches into the same business. Sincerely, Eefrit
Smilinjack Amarr New Genesis Project	Posted - 2007.05.09 18:19:00 - [55] Originally by: Eefrit The market needs to be seen to be regulating itself and not to be one big old boys club where you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. It is incestuaous enough with people worrying about that as well. True as that statement may be, the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to be such a staunch 'regulator' in the case of BMBE seems fairly suspect; if only due to the arguable orgins of FIN as a BoB pet project and the long standing animosity between various BoB personalities and Tornsoul. Why not set aside the crusade for awhile, let BMBE management and shareholders work out a recovery plan, and let this issue run it's course without further interference?
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.09 19:08:00 - [56] Originally by: Smilinjack True as that statement may be, the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to be such a staunch 'regulator' in the case of BMBE seems fairly suspect; if only due to the arguable orgins of FIN as a BoB pet project and the long standing animosity between various BoB personalities and Tornsoul. Why not set aside the crusade for awhile, let BMBE management and shareholders work out a recovery plan, and let this issue run it's course without further interference? 1) FIN was never a BoB pet project. My pvp character (namely Eefrit) was in BoB at the time it was launched but BoB never had anything to do with it. You can go for conspiracy theories if you like but they are simply not true. As far as animosity between BoB and BIG go, I am not aware of anything of the sort, but then again I never got involved in politics. 2) I have shares in a large number of corps in eve, and one of those corps is BMBE. I as a shareholder have every right to call mismanagement to account for how they have handled a public company from that aspect. I'm sure they are working on a recovery plan, and I hope it goes well. /Eefrit
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.05.09 19:10:00 - [57] Originally by: Baun Do we really need to have the same discussions in two different sets of threads? This is stupid ;O Agreed. Lets leave the discussion as it has mostly been aired and is now aparently being dealt with as a result. /Eefrit
Astasia Orian Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.09 19:31:00 - [58] Edited by: Astasia Orian on 09/05/2007 19:27:43 Originally by: Smilinjack True as that statement may be, the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to be such a staunch 'regulator' in the case of BMBE seems fairly suspect; if only due to the arguable orgins of FIN as a BoB pet project and the long standing animosity between various BoB personalities and Tornsoul. Eefrit's time in Eclipse was as a normal member, running pos like the rest of us. He left in good standing to focus more on his project. We have absolutely nothing to do with his mutual fund project (although some members certainly own shares). The corp history entry of Eefrit in Black Nova a couple of years ago is from before the charactar was purchased by the current owner. We don't acquire T2 bpos to start mutual funds and pay random investors a return, we use them to build ships for our chaps to blow people up with. Sorry, but there's no BoB conspiracy to bring down the mighty 0.0 political entity BMBE. I wish both groups luck in exploiting the workers and other glorious capitalist projects.
Sin Angel Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.09 21:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Eefrit Originally by: Baun Do we really need to have the same discussions in two different sets of threads? This is stupid ;O Agreed. Lets leave the discussion as it has mostly been aired and is now aparently being dealt with as a result. /Eefrit False statement, it is not being dealt with as a RESULT it would have been dealt with regardless or at least neither of us can prove either way. Do not try and make this out to be a service you have performed, you attempted to buy out BMBE, failed and as a result attempted to discredit it. -Sin
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.05.09 22:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Borg017 If I know Tornsoul, he would never scam anyone. The guy is genuinely interested in progress of the game and would not do anything to lose its integrity. His projects are more for the game than for his corp or his own gain. Tbh, he might be a little too extreme in that case. In fact, there have times has he put the progress of the game over his own corp's and corp members' need. The guy has done so much for the community through this bank and his lottery project. I very much doubt that for all these years, he's worked hard to end up scamming for a few billion. This is all just propoganda. Why else would it be in the CAOD? 40% profit reinvested in bmbe 20% profit to investors 40% profit into tornsoul's account. did i get the percentages correct? because if they are, they sort of disagree with the quoted post.

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