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Divideby0
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.05.09 08:12:00 -
[1]
I have really begun to hate macro miners. I am starting to see them everywhere. I see retrievers and battleships alike stumble back and fourth from station to belt mining the nearest rock they can lock onto. I cant wait for Revelations 2. I try to scope them out when i can and report them to the GMs but they already have so much on their hands.
I suggest a "Turing Tag" function to aid in locating and elminating Macro Miners. A Turing test is the little graphic of jumbled letters and numbers you often get when you register for a new account on a forum or the like. Since they cannot (yet) be read by macros, they are used to keep bots from forming spam accounts.
What I'm suggesting is the ability to "Tag" a suspect player in space once a day to take a Turing test. You may tag multiple players but each only once. Likewise, multiple players may tag the same player. This way, those ships exhibiting bot behavior are more likely to get tagged.
What happens then is the tagged player receives an eve-mail requesting them to take a simple turing test by a certain deadline(like 10-15 minutes). If the player does not take the test in the time allotted, they are flagged as a BOT (perhaps drone infested) and can be destroyed without concord interference.
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fire 59
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.09 08:25:00 -
[2]
Sound's pretty good to me, even afk barges have to come back every few mins to the screen. Any activity that result's in the kaploding of the filthy macro's and such deserve's some investigation.
Imagine a world where you can kill all the farmer's and macro's at will, o bliss ( lean's back in chair with a smile on face and lit cigerette in hand )
BoB vs the coalition of family value's |
Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.09 08:31:00 -
[3]
Couldnt' that be used to spam enemies or just to compel them to look away from their scanners? You could find a freighter sitting afk in a 1.0 system, at the end of its autopilot course, with the owner still at work for another two hours, and get a flag to torch it.
Awfully powerful.
And I thought a proper Turing Test required a control group. The thing you describe is something else.
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Ovno ConSyquence
Amarr The Plebians
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Posted - 2007.05.09 09:06:00 -
[4]
Yeah but what about all the noobs how afk mine with a industrial and 1 miner II in 1.0, i know when i first started i used to set it going over night (complete with alarm to wake me at ~4ish when the first rock should have been depleted )
And yes i realise that this was,
a) VERY SAD!!!!!!
b) not really that profitable but it helped my funds back when i was a noob |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.09 09:35:00 -
[5]
Yeah, this would be an awfully powerful grief weapon.
Yesterday when i was running about, i saw the same hauler parked outside a station for hours.
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Hajo Vosa
Gallente Corp Delivery Service
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Posted - 2007.05.09 09:56:00 -
[6]
Hi in general I like this Idea, because I hate Macro-Miner too. But the problem is with Ice Mining.... I, for example, stands there around 10 Minutes (2 runs with 8 Iceblocks)with out moving, then I fly to station and then back to this Roid. All by Hand, but from outside it maybe lookslike than a macro, because I do a few orther things during Ice-Mining (Check Mails/ Chat with friends ect.), because it takes solong Time for an Run, and SOO intressting isnŠt the View during Ice Mining . And I really donŠt want to get Blow up, only because I stand there 2 Minutes longer. Fly safe
Hajo Vosa |
Angelus Xenotov
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Posted - 2007.05.09 13:30:00 -
[7]
Talk about Code-Unfriendly.
I think next time you see a group of 'Macro's you PM them, I bet 90% of the time they either aren't Macros or are just foreign people who don't speak English.
That said, Macro's aren't really hurting the economy of EvE, so the only real complaint is when they start selling iskies.
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.09 15:39:00 -
[8]
I often don't read my Eve-Mails for upto a day at a time.
Too open to grief.
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Guo Jiemin
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Posted - 2007.05.09 15:45:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Guo Jiemin on 09/05/2007 15:47:18 Edited by: Guo Jiemin on 09/05/2007 15:46:04 The whole thing should be handled by Concord, it is fine that players can trigger a concord enquiry, but not the destruction of a ship.
I think it could work in a slightly different way:
Imagine you spot player acting like a macrominer, you decide to report your suspects. Instead of bothering a GM you send a report evemail to a concord NPC who processes your evemail saying character and system and sends a drone to inspect. The drone tries to verify with a turing tag popping like a warning, not a mail, on your window and waits. If you ignore the drone it will tag you as macrominer temporarily, send a report to a GM, add your account to a macrominer DB and chase you. Instead of destroying your ship the drone could just target scramble you so that you can not keep mining.
The drone should be able to differentiate between macrominers and other legitimate player using criteria like this to refine the turing tag:
if you are using high energy modules you are a macrominer unless you are using a badger/iteron... with a single high energy module active afk miners and haulers at the end of an afk run should be safe this way.
The DB could be used just as a tool for GMs or as a way to trigger stronger action.
what do you reckon? |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.09 15:52:00 -
[10]
What about people who can't read turing tags? Because they use colors and everyone can't make difference (look at skill needs change). Because I've seen some so noisy that nothing could be read and I asked the site for a new one. Because everyone would pop one in PvP and pop you. Same can be done with gang, and when you're typing text, if often happens you hit enter at the wrong time.
It may be a good idea, but there's much griefing behing and also it can't be applied to everyone (when no straight rule can be defined, you'd better not put it in a computer system). -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Happy owner of a Vexor Navy Issue and few ishkurs. The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon ! |
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Guo Jiemin
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Posted - 2007.05.09 15:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Guo Jiemin on 09/05/2007 15:58:22 It could be used only in 0.8 to 1.0 space which is where macrominers usually work and PVP would not be affected.
The drone could allow you to fail for a number of times, say three tries?
About colour I have seen some turing tags which only used black and white, not even a greyscale.
In my opinion there are ways to make the life of macrominers harder whithout harming other players.
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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.09 16:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Angelus Xenotov I think next time you see a group of 'Macro's you PM them, I bet 90% of the time they either aren't Macros or are just foreign people who don't speak English.
And that means they don't understand when you steal from them so they still continue to fill the can you are emptying for them? I may be English but I am pretty sure my actions don't need a translator
Quote: That said, Macro's aren't really hurting the economy of EvE, so the only real complaint is when they start selling iskies.
Do an internet search before making a stupid statement like that FFS.
You'll find loads of web sites selling ISK and their latest trick to avoid detection is for them to be "Scammed" out of 100 million isk or so.
MM DOES hurt the economy. Isogen, Noxcium and Mexallon hit rock bottom and have never recovered, prices for them have never been so low. All the belts in the local system and those around vanish between DT and DT, all that's left for real players are pebbles if they can get in before the macros turn up. An entire belt is valued at 8 million max after DT and that includes any Kernite/Omber if you get the right day. I remember just a year ago, I could find Veld roids 10x larger than my barge. Now, I only ever see Veld pebbles 10x smaller than my barge that pop after the first cycle.
Real players don't mine 23/7, they physically can't due to some unfortunate design flaw that requires them to sleep. Macros can even relog after DT and continue where they left off with no player intervention at all. In theory, you could set up a series of macros and go away for a week or two and come back to sh*tloads of ore scattered around several stations/systems.
Do a bit of mining in highsec sometime and you'll see what I mean.
--
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.05.09 18:25:00 -
[13]
As much as I hate macro users or ISK farmers, I don't think the OP's suggestion is a good one, as it would hurt every player, not only the macro users.
Instead, how about a naming convention? Actually what annoys me the most about the mindless farming crowd are all those "asdasdasd" and "iwhffje" names. It totally kills immersion.
Just let me petition them for gibberish, senseless names
_________________________________ - People are people wherever you go - |
WGAnubis Marrith
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Posted - 2007.05.09 19:28:00 -
[14]
Way to easy to be abused/missused. I have ships that I put on auto pilot when I dont have the time or patients to do the warp to zero and to be really honest, what gives a player the right to use these so called turing tag? Sure this is intended for the mining situation, but imagine this:
You come out of a star gate, decloak, several gate campers, and all of a sudden you get flooded with these tag requests that you have to answer individually, forget warp scramble divices or webifiers, this would be the ultimate griefing device. No need for a module to take up space to boot. By the time you responded to each turing tag, your long dead.
Finally, this is also doing CCP's job, and after spending two years under SOE, I am violently opposed to players doing anything for the developers save bug reports and giving advice to new players. If CCP is serous about taking care of marco miners they should create some sort of observation code that watches macro mining hot spots, identifies the typical marco mining patterns and builds a profile on these individuals. After CCP has a fair amount of information on a marco miner, they decide to ban the account or not.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.09 19:36:00 -
[15]
All I need when I decide to have a couple of evenings of mining on my own, blocking convos, is to be deluged with EvE Mails I've even been petitioned as a Macro when I was sitting in a belt with a friggin OSPREY. Why? I have no idea since no one even stole from the can I was using. This was several months ago, I would never jet mine now too many thieves.
Find something that doesn't irritate normal miners or waste their time and I'll support it. Every so called "solution" to Macros always seems to nerf or irritate normal players. <-----------> Keiron: Quote on PvE/PvP
[i]PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.09 19:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Drizit
MM DOES hurt the economy. Isogen, Noxcium and Mexallon hit rock bottom and have never recovered, prices for them have never been so low.
Because the Drone regions drop those minerals in quantities that are unheard of in Emire space, NOT because of Macros.
Quote:
All the belts in the local system and those around vanish between DT and DT, all that's left for real players are pebbles if they can get in before the macros turn up. An entire belt is valued at 8 million max after DT and that includes any Kernite/Omber if you get the right day. I remember just a year ago, I could find Veld roids 10x larger than my barge. Now, I only ever see Veld pebbles 10x smaller than my barge that pop after the first cycle.
CCP keeps making the roids smaller. Log in right after downtime and the rocks still pop in a very short time compared to they did 6 months ago. Plus there are plenty of empire corps that are mining to build ships for the conflicts in 0.0. Not everyone stripping a belt is a macro.
Quote:
Do a bit of mining in highsec sometime and you'll see what I mean.
I mine in high sec all the time, it sucks. But it isn't just because of macros. <-----------> Keiron: Quote on PvE/PvP
[i]PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to |
Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.09 20:05:00 -
[17]
Awsome idea. Dont think it should be as long as 15 minutes tho. But definatly one of the best ideas for combating macros. One way to prevent spammin would be if someone activated the 'anti macro' whatever its called, (lol) is if it checked the characters xml file for a true/false value (not sure how programming works, but i think thats the general idea), the value obviously resetting itself to false every 15 mins. I dont think it would take much bandwidth to check as a true false value is represented by a 1 or 0, a single bit. 60 thousand players all checking at once would be 60Kb.
Now like i said, i dont know about programming much, done a bit of Javascript and thats it. So please dont flame me on this
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Phionna Var
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Posted - 2007.05.09 20:10:00 -
[18]
Are you Kidding?
Too many people do stuff away from the keyboard in secure space becasue the game is designed for it to be so .. hence autopilot and huge cargohold in mining ships. The system you propose would be too exploitable. Player Pirate /reports someone clearly afk autopiloting somewhere .. they get flagged as a bot .. pirate kills them without concord interferance. Even with the non targetable thing ... player reports somoene who is afk .. they come back to the computer to find a pirate stealing all of their ore but cant lock onto the person because they have been flagged as a bot. You are basically asking for free reign to attack anybody you feel like in 1.0 space
)) A much easier solution to macro mining would be this: 1> Increase the frequency of npc Asteroid pirates and put them even in 1.0 space 2> Make mining lasers trip off whenever your ship takes damage. 3> Make deadspace complexes that require a Tag check like the one you propose to get into 4> The deadspace mining areas would retain the same NPC pirate frequency as the security level of the system it is in before the frequency increase
This solves a ton of problems as far as I can see
A Second way to prevent macro mining would be this (not to be confused with the first solution)
>>Concord Endangered Asteroid Species program>> 1> Add a bunch of tiny asteroids to all belts with the same names as the other ones in the belt. 2> Make them protected by Concord under the endangered Asteroid species program 3> give a warning box when you try to mine it (just like if you try to attack somone in secure space) 4> if you click "NO i dont want to die" it auto-untargets that asteroid and flags in in your overview with a color marking (but not one that can be skipped over with a macro)
Since the closest asteroids will now almost always be protected the macro wont work because even if they put in code to "hit no" on the box they will keep re-targeting the same asteroid.
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Alexoin
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Posted - 2007.05.09 21:31:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Alexoin on 09/05/2007 21:28:14 Cough can tell you're not a miner:)
Originally by: Phionna Var Are you Kidding?
Too many people do stuff away from the keyboard in secure space becasue the game is designed for it to be so .. hence autopilot and huge cargohold in mining ships. Huge cargoholds? since when. My retriever can't carry 1 full cycle of both mining lasers. Think a hulk when I get into it may be able to manage 2 cycles (6mins)
The system you propose would be too exploitable. Player Pirate /reports someone clearly afk autopiloting somewhere .. they get flagged as a bot .. pirate kills them without concord interferance. Even with the non targetable thing ... player reports somoene who is afk .. they come back to the computer to find a pirate stealing all of their ore but cant lock onto the person because they have been flagged as a bot. You are basically asking for free reign to attack anybody you feel like in 1.0 space So obvious fix then, the Turing test can only be used on someone with an active miner module of some form (whether miner 1, strip miner, ice harvester or whatever). Fix to the griefing tool, fix to afk autopiloting, etc.
)) A much easier solution to macro mining would be this: 1> Increase the frequency of npc Asteroid pirates and put them even in 1.0 space 0.8-1.0 rats cant break the tanks of higher end mining ships (such as Hulks) 2> Make mining lasers trip off whenever your ship takes damage. Hmm all my lasers trip off at the same time, ooh overflowed cargo hold. Few minute wait until I can switch them back on because of capacitor. Extra damage to my mining crystals. No thankyou
3> Make deadspace complexes that require a Tag check like the one you propose to get into 4> The deadspace mining areas would retain the same NPC pirate frequency as the security level of the system it is in before the frequency increase Deadspace is awful for mining in, due to the inability to warp the hauler to the miner, and the miner to the roid. Both haulers and miners are slooooow. If you made it so the area after the gate was warpable to, whats to stop the Macro-miner being there to get through the gate, then just triggering off the macro?
This solves a ton of problems as far as I can see The easiest way as I mentioned is just make the test only triggerable on a ship with an active mining module
A Second way to prevent macro mining would be this (not to be confused with the first solution)
>>Concord Endangered Asteroid Species program>> 1> Add a bunch of tiny asteroids to all belts with the same names as the other ones in the belt. 2> Make them protected by Concord under the endangered Asteroid species program 3> give a warning box when you try to mine it (just like if you try to attack somone in secure space) 4> if you click "NO i dont want to die" it auto-untargets that asteroid and flags in in your overview with a color marking (but not one that can be skipped over with a macro)
Since the closest asteroids will now almost always be protected the macro wont work because even if they put in code to "hit no" on the box they will keep re-targeting the same asteroid.
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Gridcrash
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Posted - 2007.05.09 22:01:00 -
[20]
This is a problem that is not going to be able to be solved by any in-game means. Every scheme that can be thought of would drive non-macros nuts (or be insanely exploitable) while at the same time being of little or no consequence to macros.
Turn off the mining lasers when hit? The macro is modified to make sure mining lasers are re-enabled. Detect patterns of operation? The macro is modified to add some randomness to its processes. More despoiler type mobs to clear target locks? The macro re-locks. "Protected" roids? Besides annoying, the macro can easily be adjusted to pick different roids until finding an unprotected one.
This can only really be solved by CCP on the client side. It simply must be possible to detect macros running on the client machine, and with some analysis of the problem by CCP, I'm sure they would come up with a solution sooner than later.
Make no mistake, however, that macro miners ARE damaging EVE. Min prices are through the floor, and it is barely profitable to mine ice at all anymore. Sold ISK allows players with the largest real-life wallets to always prevail. Game mechanics are adjusted to compensate for the artificially low min prices and ease of purchasing ISK, slowly putting the legitimate players at a disadvantage. It is a problem, and CCP will need to address it in earnest sooner than later.
Just my two isk, but I fear it is probably the truth.
-Grid
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Trader Darin
Gallente Sky Transport and Production
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Posted - 2007.05.10 04:02:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Trader Darin on 10/05/2007 03:59:58 I think it must be work like this:
1. You tag player 2. When player docked to station it cant be undoc until enter confirmation code 3. tagging may be done multiple time so no'macrominer just can enter it when it unload their cargo =========================== Between Light and Darkness, Road Difficult and Hard. Are able you pass it to the end?!? --- àOnly who walk on Path can reach it endà |
Sargeant HAmmer
Caldari Hammers Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.10 11:50:00 -
[22]
i think ccp should get hold of one of these macros (the program) and reconstruct the code for mining around preventing the use of them. shouldnt be too hard if session numbers that are randomly generated are used or something
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Divideby0
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.05.11 23:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Trader Darin Edited by: Trader Darin on 10/05/2007 03:59:58 I think it must be work like this:
1. You tag player 2. When player docked to station it cant be undoc until enter confirmation code 3. tagging may be done multiple time so no'macrominer just can enter it when it unload their cargo
I really like this idea as it seems to be least subject to abuse from other players.
originally I was thinking that 10-15 minutes would be enough time to respond. I mean you have to come back to pull to your jetcan anyway. I dont understand why some people are so anti-social when there are a bunch of you hanging out in a belt together.
I'm sure CCP has already pulled pulled a few programs to see how they work. If i were a programmer for them, I'd be very curious how other people are exploiting their creation. Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves low-sec on his own...or the chump who attacks an unarmed ship? |
Angelus Xenotov
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Posted - 2007.05.12 00:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gridcrash
Make no mistake, however, that macro miners ARE damaging EVE. Min prices are through the floor, and it is barely profitable to mine ice at all anymore. Sold ISK allows players with the largest real-life wallets to always prevail. Game mechanics are adjusted to compensate for the artificially low min prices and ease of purchasing ISK, slowly putting the legitimate players at a disadvantage. It is a problem, and CCP will need to address it in earnest sooner than later.
Ok, just to point this out.
You, I assume, are an ice Miner and as such, it benefits you when the Ice Prices are high.
Macros lower that price by increasing supply, making your product (A) less valuable.
But since you're not a Pos user, you don't enjoy the decrease running costs that the macro's deliver, but if the macros went out of business, ice prices would sharply rise (Who wants to mine smegging ice all day?) and thus increasing operating costs.
Which in turn, increases T2 production costs (B), which means the POS operator has to increase prices (C) to maintain the same margin for the final product (D).
A+B+C = D.
Being that the mineral market isn't affected by Macro's (Infact, the requirements of the Capital Ship industry means the opposite, price increases), the only business that is affected is Ice Mining.
-
To cut a long story short, Don't bother with Ice mining, its a waste of time.
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Emylissan
Gallente European Science Armada
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Posted - 2007.05.12 01:45:00 -
[25]
Not really a final solution but perhaps a way to make the "life" for macros more difficult could be to make the asteroids spawn positions change to a 20 miles away position from the last at each reboot. Than there is at least the chance that the bookmark that the marco used yesterday wont work everyday. When that ships jump to the bookmark in the belt than there is a good chance that its out of range of any mining turret. Honestly i am not sure if that would help but at least it would hurt real player miners the least compared to all other ideas about that.
----------------------------------------------------- Everyone who finds a type error can keep it. ----------------------------------------------------- |
Star Brlght
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Posted - 2007.05.12 05:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Trader Darin Edited by: Trader Darin on 10/05/2007 03:59:58 I think it must be work like this:
1. You tag player 2. When player docked to station it cant be undoc until enter confirmation code 3. tagging may be done multiple time so no'macrominer just can enter it when it unload their cargo
I like your idea except for number 3. Since it doesn't have any kind of pvp impact to enter a code while you are in station it would be very unobtrusive.
as for the macro'er entering it in each time he docks ... well that isn't really macromining then is it? if he is there to push buttons.
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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.12 19:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Angelus Xenotov [snip] (Who wants to mine smegging ice all day?
Errm, lots of players who already mine ore. If Ice prices were back to their proper level, it would benefit players to mine it and therefore the reward would balance the long boring hours.
ATM ice is not profitable and so players don't bother to mine it. Take away macros and ice prices increase, not significantly but enough to make it a viable reason for players to go out and mine it. Ice roids don't pop so there's an endless supply in any field, it's just that ore prices make ore mining more profitable even considering the small roids and long respawn times of the more valuable types.
--
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JanSVK
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Posted - 2007.05.13 12:03:00 -
[28]
Well I got a different idea for you.
Mining regulations in hi-sec only (1.0 - 0.5). You can shoot hem in 0.4 - 0.0 Sigle simple rule: 1 player can mine only a ceratin amouth in m3 of ore/week (example: 3 mil m3/week) Covetor mining 65 000 m3/hour 23/7 gets about 10 mil m3/ week wouldnt affect players, would reduce macro miner income by 2/3.
Problem is that low end min prices in empire would rise ridiculusly.
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