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Saltire System-Lords E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.05.11 13:11:00 - [1] Yes, titans may take the support fleet out of a war but mother ships are taking the small gang pvp out of eve. case in point - our alliance E N I G M A has recently deployed into a northern region, mainly around taisy/obe. Our purpose was to get away from syndicate for a bit (lack of targets, people not daring to fight without 10:1 advantage) we have found the blob has been replaced by motherships, dropping every time there may be a threat from 1-2 ships. another case in point - A corp mate of mine in a megathron was attacked by an older pilot in a nosdomi, our pilots tank was failing fast but still the domi drops a carrier on him as he enters hull. Same pilot later took on an abso in a new mega, the absolution pilot dropped a wyvern MS and a Carrier on him.... Have people in eve lost the ability to PVP? Motherships are 99% safe in lowsec and something needs to be changed about them, make them able to be scrammed. An addition to this is that any ship activating a cyno should lose the ability to run any mods instantly, including its warp scrambler. your oppinions? oh an please dont come back at me with screams of 'ADAPT!! YOU GET MORE MOTHERSHIPS THAN OTHER GUYZ = WIN YEAH?'
Aleria Angelis Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.11 13:17:00 - [2] CCP bring in capital size scramblers that can only be fitted on cap ships, make them able to scramble motherships AND titans. GEPT opens its doors!
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.11 13:23:00 - [3] or an ability to remote repair bubbles ------
Zyper Minmatar Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.11 13:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Aleria Angelis CCP bring in capital size scramblers that can only be fitted on cap ships, make them able to scramble motherships AND titans. Good idea --
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.11 13:49:00 - [5] Edited by: ry ry on 11/05/2007 13:49:05 the problem is, dropping a capship on somebody is cheap, quick and easy. they're just about economical enough to get wheeled out for anything larger than a cruiser, and quicker than trying to get a gang organised and in position. not a nerf cry, but capships are so manuverable it's hard to counter them with conventional gangs, and powerful enough to wipe out small gangs solo.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.11 14:08:00 - [6] well if you got a capital use it if you dont GTFOAS ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Saltire System-Lords E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.05.11 14:13:00 - [7] Originally by: SiJira well if you got a capital use it if you dont GTFOAS i do have one, but i refuse to use it to gank 1 person..... what the hell does GTFOAS mean? SALTIRE : the most loved, feared and respected pvper and pirate in eve history.
Chronus26 Gallente Team Laser Explosion	Posted - 2007.05.11 14:16:00 - [8] They wasted a good advantage. Why jump a Mothership on a lone BS, when you could wait untill the long BS gets his friends to come along and then jump the MS on them... I only jump my Carrier in if it looks liek a good fight, or my friends need my help. -----
PCaBoo Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.11 14:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Saltire Yes, titans may take the support fleet out of a war but mother ships are taking the small gang pvp out of eve. case in point - our alliance E N I G M A has recently deployed into a northern region, mainly around taisy/obe. Our purpose was to get away from syndicate for a bit (lack of targets, people not daring to fight without 10:1 advantage) we have found the blob has been replaced by motherships, dropping every time there may be a threat from 1-2 ships. another case in point - A corp mate of mine in a megathron was attacked by an older pilot in a nosdomi, our pilots tank was failing fast but still the domi drops a carrier on him as he enters hull. Same pilot later took on an abso in a new mega, the absolution pilot dropped a wyvern MS and a Carrier on him.... Have people in eve lost the ability to PVP? Motherships are 99% safe in lowsec and something needs to be changed about them, make them able to be scrammed. An addition to this is that any ship activating a cyno should lose the ability to run any mods instantly, including its warp scrambler. your oppinions? oh an please dont come back at me with screams of 'ADAPT!! YOU GET MORE MOTHERSHIPS THAN OTHER GUYZ = WIN YEAH?' So you're mad that someone dropped a ms on you, or that you couldn't lock it down, with your 1 bs? Either way, I don't see a problem other than you whining about getting bbq'd by a larger force. Sure it's annoying and unsporting, but that's the way of the world. Get more people or pick on smaller targets? ________________________________ Caldari's are the Chosen people!
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.11 15:21:00 - [10] Originally by: PCaBoo So you're mad that someone dropped a ms on you, or that you couldn't lock it down, with your 1 bs? Either way, I don't see a problem other than you whining about getting bbq'd by a larger force. Sure it's annoying and unsporting, but that's the way of the world. Get more people or pick on smaller targets? I think his complaint is that a) enormous capital ships are effectively more mobile and versatile than his lone battleship or small gang, b) his lone ship doesn't put another one into danger in literally any conceivable way, and c) too much power concentrated into single ships can have devastating consequences. I would say its a valid concern, in addition to the fact that supercapitals are essentially untouchable in lowsec, which is obviously a complete oversight from a design perspective.
Vasiliyan Aliastra	Posted - 2007.05.11 16:05:00 - [11] Originally by: ry ry not a nerf cry, but capships are so manuverable it's hard to counter them with conventional gangs This is a very important point that needs repeating: with current cyno mechanics, capitals are the fast-response ships of Eve.
Caletha Reborn	Posted - 2007.05.11 16:07:00 - [12] I drop my carrier into fights whenever I feel the opponent is winning or has a (large) chance of winning Fun though you start with "Yes, titans may take the support fleet out of a war but mother ships are taking the small gang pvp out of eve." and then your first example 'only' uses a carrier. That said, I wouldnt drop my carrier on a fight which I am winning. Now I will drop my carrier (and possibly other carriers) in a fight when I am either not sure my gang can win or if my gang is losing. I dont really see the issue, happens often enough that you get ganked by larger gang, why is carriers / motherships / titans any different? Heck only yesterday I got ganked by several BS/BC/Hac/etc in my rapier. Now if I was in my Cyno BS, then I'd have jumped in my carrier and given them a run for their money. Such is life, remember the pilot and run next time.
Farham AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.11 16:16:00 - [13] For good or for bad, Capital ships are now the new standard of combat in 0.0. Adapt or be left out in the cold.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.05.11 16:49:00 - [14] Capital ships are a huge investment in terms of ISK and training, as well as being solely dependent on cooperation of the corporation. I see nothing wrong with the current situation. They are hard to take down because they are hard to replace. Titans, MS's, carriers, and dreads(somewhat). Maybe if you get several billion ISK worth of Battleships, Cruisers and Frigates into a blob, you can bump-gank a MS.
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.11 17:29:00 - [15] But just being expensive shouldnt make it uber, one still needs to have to think about tactics and strategy and all that. 5 frigates can take down most BS, 5 BS cant do too much to a MS (and 5 vs a carrier would be pushing it). _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.11 19:03:00 - [16] A few points: 1. Carriers and motherships are restricted to low sec 2. Carriers and motherships require a year of training 3. A mothership costs 20 carriers, yet only does at most the damage of two 4. Building a mothership requires logistics and a great risk in securing it's production (we've lost a POS building a mom) 5. It is possible for a well piloted gang of a dozen battleships to kill a mothership. 6. Every fighter costs 20 million ISK, which is the insurance of a Tier 1 BS 7. Carriers are easily tackled 8. Officer smartbombs are expensive as hell 9. Bumping is ludicrously easy considering the actual masses of ships If your few man battleship squad was jumped by a mothership, it's obviously overkill, but little different than regular blobbing. Yes, it can be done with less pilots, but it's very skillpoint intensive, requires a cyno ship to commit to a fight and a much greater monetary investment. Consider that most regular ship losses are less than or equal to losing one to two fighters, and realize that flying a carrier is always taking that risk. If you're questioning the blob mentality, then that's of course a different issue, which I somewhat sympathise with. Outnumbering is efficient, but rarely fun. This is not the fault of carriers or motherships, however. I bet that similar concerns were raised when Battleships were first released. And like you said, enough frigates can take them out if they're organised, fitted and piloted right. Similarly carriers and motherships can be killed, even with less than omgwtf blobtastic numbers. You'll even find several videos including carrier kills made by battleship gangs of no more than dozen (probably even a lot less). And once the fittings are tailored for the job, your chances will double. What makes a motherships worth building instead of 20 carriers is the immunity EW -- most importantly to scrambling, that is. It offers a lot of survivability, no doubt, but is not without countertactics. Should you catch one half-assed with a generalised setup? No. If the pilot screws up, you might. But often cries for nerf are based on players' inability to adapt specific strategies -- rather, they would like their no brainer one fitting for each occasion F1-F8 shut up and die -mindset to do everything. I'm not accusing you, however. I hope you do not fall into the category. So how do you catch a mothership? Dictor, nos/neuts, bumping, dread alpha and unfortunately lag. No dictors in lowsec makes them better there, obviously, but get a covert ops on top of one and cyno a few dreads to surround bump it. And it's not just game mechanics that can be attributed for their slippery nature: afterall, the pilots will probably be careful as hell in 20-40 billion ISK ships, and individuals who know what they're doing and have the trust of their corp and/or alliance. That said, I understand it can frustrating if people jump carriers on you in balanced fights. ---
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:23:00 - [17] Originally by: Jin Entres 5. It is possible for a well piloted gang of a dozen battleships to kill a mothership. What's to stop the mothership jumping out? In low sec it's pretty impossible to kill a mothership. It's an 'I win' button. Paratwa Recruitment
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:29:00 - [18] Make jumping more costly, so cap pilots will have to be picky about where they want to jump to....or something. Caldari and proud
CaldariAdam	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:32:00 - [19] No big ships should be able to be scrammed. So no change is necessary.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:39:00 - [20] theres always another side to this story, look it at from the opponents side, u are beeing attacked and u have the opportunity to drop a MS on somebodies head... so u go 'no no, cuz that would be so unfair to my opponent'? NO OFFCOURSE NOT!!! U drop the MS and wtfpwn his ass all over space. Is it fair? no way! is it eve? definitly! CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Raven Hyperbollic Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:48:00 - [21] I'd be nice to know statistically how many motherships and titans there are in the game at the moment and what there production to death ratio is. That will then tell you if a, They need a Nerf or b, I smell a 25/25 man super capital death battle coming on with industrialists everywhere rejoicing with orders for new replacements I for one have been in two battles recently where two motherships got blew up easily (even though it took time) once the hostile support fleet was killed. If they die that easy with a bit of forward planning then maybe a ban to low sec is needed only? or make motherships scramable in low sec... i dunno?
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:54:00 - [22] Originally by: 000Hunter000 U drop the MS and wtfpwn his ass all over space. Is it fair? no way! is it eve? definitly! Eve was supposed to be about risk v reward. With a 0% chance of losing this really is a game spoiler. I could get a mothership if I sold all my assets, somehow I don't think there would be much fun in thoughtless no strategy battles where I cannot lose. I would love to see a statement on this from CCP and what they are going to do about it. Paratwa Recruitment
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:59:00 - [23] This was fixed with Revelations II. And why necro the thread? ------------------
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Hannobaal This was fixed with Revelations II. And why necro the thread? How was it fixed? Because it has some relevant info in it and saved me starting a new one. What difference does it make? It's not that old. Paratwa Recruitment
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:09:00 - [25] Originally by: Aodha Khan Originally by: Hannobaal This was fixed with Revelations II. And why necro the thread? How was it fixed? Because it has some relevant info in it and saved me starting a new one. What difference does it make? It's not that old. Well, you are right about low-sec, but with bubbles it is now possible to hold down and kill Titans and Motherships in 0.0 whereas before Revelations II it really wasn't. ------------------
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Raven Hyperbollic I'd be nice to know statistically how many motherships and titans there are in the game at the moment and what there production to death ratio is. In another thread (not sure which now) someone posted that there are 8 Titans currently flying and 11 have been built (three have been killed). That does not seem to include the number of Titans killed during production (a few have that way). No ideas for motherships although IIRC a Titan was actually brought down before the first Mom was killed.
Trind2222 Amarr Celestial Pillagers	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Jin Entres A few points: 1. Carriers and motherships are restricted to low sec 2. Carriers and motherships require a year of training 3. A mothership costs 20 carriers, yet only does at most the damage of two 4. Building a mothership requires logistics and a great risk in securing it's production (we've lost a POS building a mom) 5. It is possible for a well piloted gang of a dozen battleships to kill a mothership. 6. Every fighter costs 20 million ISK, which is the insurance of a Tier 1 BS 7. Carriers are easily tackled 8. Officer smartbombs are expensive as hell 9. Bumping is ludicrously easy considering the actual masses of ships If your few man battleship squad was jumped by a mothership, it's obviously overkill, but little different than regular blobbing. Yes, it can be done with less pilots, but it's very skillpoint intensive, requires a cyno ship to commit to a fight and a much greater monetary investment. Consider that most regular ship losses are less than or equal to losing one to two fighters, and realize that flying a carrier is always taking that risk. If you're questioning the blob mentality, then that's of course a different issue, which I somewhat sympathise with. Outnumbering is efficient, but rarely fun. This is not the fault of carriers or motherships, however. I bet that similar concerns were raised when Battleships were first released. And like you said, enough frigates can take them out if they're organised, fitted and piloted right. Similarly carriers and motherships can be killed, even with less than omgwtf blobtastic numbers. You'll even find several videos including carrier kills made by battleship gangs of no more than dozen (probably even a lot less). And once the fittings are tailored for the job, your chances will double. What makes a motherships worth building instead of 20 carriers is the immunity EW -- most importantly to scrambling, that is. It offers a lot of survivability, no doubt, but is not without countertactics. Should you catch one half-assed with a generalised setup? No. If the pilot screws up, you might. But often cries for nerf are based on players' inability to adapt specific strategies -- rather, they would like their no brainer one fitting for each occasion F1-F8 shut up and die -mindset to do everything. I'm not accusing you, however. I hope you do not fall into the category. So how do you catch a mothership? Dictor, nos/neuts, bumping, dread alpha and unfortunately lag. No dictors in lowsec makes them better there, obviously, but get a covert ops on top of one and cyno a few dreads to surround bump it. And it's not just game mechanics that can be attributed for their slippery nature: afterall, the pilots will probably be careful as hell in 20-40 billion ISK ships, and individuals who know what they're doing and have the trust of their corp and/or alliance. That said, I understand it can frustrating if people jump carriers on you in balanced fights. Problem is in low sec mostly and many corps don't have 4 dread ready all the time. This is why ms camping in low sec have gone up is to little risk vs 0.0 . I bet we will see more mother ships in low sec unless we get tool to take them down in low sec.
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h IIRC a Titan was actually brought down before the first Mom was killed. The two Titans that were killed before Revelations II were killed after logging off with aggression. Only after Revelations II came did a Titan get killed in actual combat. ------------------
Vermin Fiend	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:33:00 - [29] How about making Cyno activation time longer. Currently capital ships can jump to cyno as soon as it is open. But lets say it would take 1 to 2 minutes to stabilize cyno enough to capital ship enter it? There would be enough time for adversaries to react on capital ship class backup. -Vermy
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:42:00 - [30] Edited by: Tharrn on 19/08/2007 11:45:15 Just remove the ability of capital ships to use any modules in low-sec. They can dock up then but that's it. Edit: supercaps that is for clarification :P

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