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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.19 11:45:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Aramendel on 19/08/2007 11:49:30
 Originally by: Jin Entres
1. Carriers and motherships are restricted to low sec
2. Carriers and motherships require a year of training
3. A mothership costs 20 carriers, yet only does at most the damage of two
4. Building a mothership requires logistics and a great risk in securing it's production (we've lost a POS building a mom)
5. It is possible for a well piloted gang of a dozen battleships to kill a mothership.
6. Every fighter costs 20 million ISK, which is the insurance of a Tier 1 BS
7. Carriers are easily tackled
8. Officer smartbombs are expensive as hell
9. Bumping is ludicrously easy considering the actual masses of ships
1. High sec PvP is not really terribly important.
2. Training time does not balance things, it just pushes problems with them a bit in the future
3. Thats the case for pretty much everything. A megathron costs more than 20 throaxes and does also only the dps of 2.
4. POS jump bridges and constellation capital have made this far easier and safer.
5. If you can hold the MS down. Which isn't that easy.
6. True. Ignores fitting cost though.
7. True. Mainly due to damps being very (possibly too) effective vs them though.
8. That is because the demand for them is high, their price is entirely player made. People pay as much for them because they are worth it.
9. That does not make it easy in reality.
Anyway, the problem here are not really motherships. They are perfectly OK compared to carriers in 0.0.
Their effective invulnerability in low sec however is most definately a problem.
But this is not the real point really. Its not about carriers vs motherships. Its about capital reinforcements.
Currently the main problem in eve PvP is getting the other side to engage. With a good scouting network it is essentially impossible to get a smart opponent to fight you unless he decides to. You can try to bait people to agress and then get your main force into the system, but that requires time since it quite often has to travel 2 systems to avoid getting scouted. And as soon as it gets spotted the baited force wil ltry to disengage (or kill the bait force before the reinforcements arrive and flee).
Capital reinforcements on the other hand are instant and not scoutable. They are also easier to move. Yes, a ship of your force needs a cyno gen, but fitting one is no terrible sacrifice and being static for 10 mins does not mean much if a capital is repping you.
In short, the instant hotdropping of caps into a battle is problematic.
A possible solution there could be to a) make cynos not warpable to and b) add a 30 sec jump calculation time before you can jump to a cyno.
Which is independant to jumping, meaning you can do the calculation at minute 1 of the cyno and jump instantly at minute 9. Or minute 27 if the cyno ship has enough fuel to keep it up for 3 activation cycles.
This would mean that a hostile gang has at least a 30 second warning before a capital drops on top if them, and if the cyno is made in the battle they have a 30sec window to destroy the cyno ship. if the cyno is made at a safe it is pretty much impossible to prevent the jumpin, but this will give the hostile gang more time to disengage before capital support arrives on the battlefield.
In fleet battles where you need to jump out fast if it goes pearshaped all you need to do is to make an escape cyno at the start of the battle and start the calculation right after you jumped in, allowing you to jump back instantly 30 sec after you jumped in as long as the escape cyno is active. Which you'll likely need to regen enough cap in either case. So no real change there.
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Helen
STK Scientific
M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.08.19 11:53:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Tharrn
Edited by: Tharrn on 19/08/2007 11:45:15
Just remove the ability of capital ships to use any modules in low-sec. They can dock up then but that's it.
Edit: supercaps that is for clarification :P
Ignorance for the win apparently, supercapitals can't dock AT ALL.
Whats the problem with people jumping you with capitals anyway? EvE isn't always solo 1v1 pwnage, I struggle to remember the last time I had a fair fight(? if such a thing exists).
So they jump a MS on you, why not counter by laying a trap with your own carriers/dreads to kill it?
Surround it in wrecks and dreads and it will be unable to do **** as long as you neut/nos it enough to not jump out in that situ.
Even if it makes it out it will be a lot less likely to just jump in future when its not supported properly.
STK providing Mothership deaths since 2007 |
Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleetyards
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.08.19 12:04:00 -
[33]
The problem is that they are invulnerable in low-sec.
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Arngorf
Minmatar
Mah Jongg Factories
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Posted - 2007.08.19 12:08:00 -
[34]
I second this... really do miss the old school pvp where reinforcements has to planed well and not just instant-cyno-mom-pluff-IWIN-button.. thats all i have to say.. everything else have allready been said..
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FORMER!!! I said FORMER Pirate...
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Arngorf
Minmatar
Mah Jongg Factories
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Posted - 2007.08.19 12:08:00 -
[35]
I second this... really do miss the old school pvp where reinforcements has to planed well and not just instant-cyno-mom-pluff-IWIN-button.. thats all i have to say.. everything else have allready been said..
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FORMER!!! I said FORMER Pirate...
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Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.08.19 12:18:00 -
[36]
I agree with the op, it's really annoying when you try to get a fight (4 vs 7) in lowsec and the bigger force decide to add 4 carriers to their numbers. It's quite sad that people don't want to fight unless they are 110% sure to win without losses.
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Keeves
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Posted - 2007.08.19 12:29:00 -
[37]
Ok, maybe its just me but i find this to be a bit of a whine session. The philosophy of war has always been to win and if you can win with less casualties then your opponent, you did good. In EVE as well as any MMO ive played my viewpoint has always been 'I pick my battles and I set my battlefield, not my opponent'. If that involves dropping 3 carriers and a MS on a small gang to eradicate them then thats what its gonna involve. The attacker thoughts are on winning, not for giving a chance of a loss.
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Arngorf
Minmatar
Mah Jongg Factories
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Posted - 2007.08.19 13:57:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Keeves
Ok, maybe its just me but i find this to be a bit of a whine session. The philosophy of war has always been to win and if you can win with less casualties then your opponent, you did good. In EVE as well as any MMO ive played my viewpoint has always been 'I pick my battles and I set my battlefield, not my opponent'. If that involves dropping 3 carriers and a MS on a small gang to eradicate them then thats what its gonna involve. The attacker thoughts are on winning, not for giving a chance of a loss.
u clearly didn't read or understand what this was about
its not about being jumped by larger forces.. but merly the new instant cyno capital jump in making the forces fire power 100 times it was before and adding enourmous amounts of fleet support (shield transfer/remote rep). with a little fuel cost, and one high slot from one of the ships in the battle.
This is of no problem in 0.0.. its just what its meant to be.. but in low sec it completly destroyed the fun pvp we were used to...
fighting in uneven numbers.. I have no problem with that.. but right now the Capitals are personla gankmobiles (OVEUR U SAID IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN!) because of their ability to arrive fast and without any way to defend against it.. and they can escape the same way if they for some wierd reason get in trouble..
-Arngorf
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FORMER!!! I said FORMER Pirate...
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Vincent S
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Posted - 2007.08.19 14:16:00 -
[39]
The ability to drop capitals on top of others is a great part of eve, and I hope it never changes. It adds a lot of excitement. Instead of whining, try to create a trap for the capitals. They won't do it again after you take out several of their caps in an engagement.
If you can't do it, perhaps you're biting off more than you can chew?
I do agree that titans and motherships should be more tackleable in lowsec, though.
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.19 14:20:00 -
[40]
back when BS's were new people complained that some people were using them to gank defensless ships.
A bunch of players tried to make the case that BS's should not go after lone haulers.
Guess what, nothing happened, the people with the BS's used them and the people who got attacked learned to cope.
Cap ships are the new BS's and people are going to be using them to gain as much of an advantage as they can untill people learn to deal with them.
True, its not sporting to attack single BS's in a mothership but nor is it sporting to hit haulers in a BS, it is however good buisness as the reward outweighs the risk.
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Nathomos
Minmatar
Crimson Fists
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Posted - 2007.08.19 14:21:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Nathomos on 19/08/2007 14:24:24
So...
This thread is about why it isn't fair how if someone has way more skills and a way better ship they will end up totally raping you and your gang. If you get jumped with capitals or supercapitals then then they have the superior force, motherships should have extreme power and if you knew your enemy had one it would be very very easy to avoid getting killed by one. If you just took a little planning and tactic into engagements where this kind of attack could happen you would be fine...
This is a really stupid whine, superior ships and logistics should be extremely powerful because if the don't catch you in the first engagement it isn't like a carrier is gonna be able to tackle you somewhere down the pipe, just know what your enemies' fleets are like.
Edit: I would like to point out that the whole point of this game is to have greater fleets dominate the lesser ones. If you have a good capital fleet taking down a mom wouldn't be very hard. The stupid arguement here is that they are too hard to kill in low sec, but if you honestly had any suspicion at all that caps/supercaps would come you take them down if you had the power or get out safely. There is no problem here.
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2007.08.19 14:43:00 -
[42]
4 dreads bumping a mothership is not a way to kill them in low-sec. Come on.
Since the empires do not allow interdictor bubbles in low-sec, they should not allow invulnerable capitals in.
That or introduce some method besides bubbles by which a mothership may be tackled.
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Akat
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.19 15:51:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aodha Khan
Originally by: Jin Entres
5. It is possible for a well piloted gang of a dozen battleships to kill a mothership.
What's to stop the mothership jumping out? In low sec it's pretty impossible to kill a mothership.
It's an 'I win' button.
Well, in low-sec, you can always hope one will try to cyno on top of a freighter escort. Then you can proceed to drop about a dozen carriers packed with neuts and pray you can keep him from picking up enough speed to warp 
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Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation
The Core Collective
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Posted - 2007.08.19 16:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Fester Addams
back when BS's were new people complained that some people were using them to gank defensless ships.
A bunch of players tried to make the case that BS's should not go after lone haulers.
Guess what, nothing happened, the people with the BS's used them and the people who got attacked learned to cope.
Cap ships are the new BS's and people are going to be using them to gain as much of an advantage as they can untill people learn to deal with them.
True, its not sporting to attack single BS's in a mothership but nor is it sporting to hit haulers in a BS, it is however good buisness as the reward outweighs the risk.
A BS doesn't take a year of training time, inapplicable to other ship types, to fly competently. Yeah you need to train [racial] battleships and large guns (plus T2 skills) but that's about the limit of things you wouldn't already want to be training anyway. A capital ship however, as has been pointed out, needs close to a year of specialized training, 1.2b in skills then to be able to get one hands on a ship costing at least a bil. And the result is... an OMGPWN Mobile. Most of Eve can hope to fly a BS only about 10% or less can hope to ever fly a cap or supercap.
Actually before the HP buff I think capships where balanced, then CCP increased their HP's by 300%. Thus began the era called "capital ship online".
Dal
Originally by: Seleene
It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.
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Da Ram
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Posted - 2007.08.19 19:45:00 -
[45]
Flying a carrier here.
Quite a while too - I dont think jumping in capitals to anywhere should be restricted.
What should be restricted or fixed however is the fact that a mothership will not have to worry about being pwn3d at all in low sec nowadays.
Dont get me wrong - nicely thought out and set up all you low sec pirates.
But - EVE is about risk vs reward and I do not see ANY risk involved here.
Ram
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Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.19 20:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Saltire
Yes, titans may take the support fleet out of a war but mother ships are taking the small gang pvp out of eve.
case in point - our alliance E N I G M A has recently deployed into a northern region, mainly around taisy/obe. Our purpose was to get away from syndicate for a bit (lack of targets, people not daring to fight without 10:1 advantage)
we have found the blob has been replaced by motherships, dropping every time there may be a threat from 1-2 ships.
another case in point - A corp mate of mine in a megathron was attacked by an older pilot in a nosdomi, our pilots tank was failing fast but still the domi drops a carrier on him as he enters hull. Same pilot later took on an abso in a new mega, the absolution pilot dropped a wyvern MS and a Carrier on him.... Have people in eve lost the ability to PVP?
Motherships are 99% safe in lowsec and something needs to be changed about them, make them able to be scrammed. An addition to this is that any ship activating a cyno should lose the ability to run any mods instantly, including its warp scrambler.
your oppinions?
oh an please dont come back at me with screams of 'ADAPT!! YOU GET MORE MOTHERSHIPS THAN OTHER GUYZ = WIN YEAH?'
Had the mega pilot ever shot at, say, a frigate or even a T1 cruiser? Perhaps while the cruiser was solo and the mega was ganged..?
If so, you're not crying about Moms being unfair. You're just crying because you don't have one.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
ArmyOfMe
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.19 20:52:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Saltire
Yes, titans may take the support fleet out of a war but mother ships are taking the small gang pvp out of eve.
case in point - our alliance E N I G M A has recently deployed into a northern region, mainly around taisy/obe. Our purpose was to get away from syndicate for a bit (lack of targets, people not daring to fight without 10:1 advantage)
we have found the blob has been replaced by motherships, dropping every time there may be a threat from 1-2 ships.
another case in point - A corp mate of mine in a megathron was attacked by an older pilot in a nosdomi, our pilots tank was failing fast but still the domi drops a carrier on him as he enters hull. Same pilot later took on an abso in a new mega, the absolution pilot dropped a wyvern MS and a Carrier on him.... Have people in eve lost the ability to PVP?
Motherships are 99% safe in lowsec and something needs to be changed about them, make them able to be scrammed. An addition to this is that any ship activating a cyno should lose the ability to run any mods instantly, including its warp scrambler.
your oppinions?
oh an please dont come back at me with screams of 'ADAPT!! YOU GET MORE MOTHERSHIPS THAN OTHER GUYZ = WIN YEAH?'
hate to break the news to you, but if you dont like mom's and carriers dropping on you every day then taisy/obe and the surounding area really isnt for you
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Misses Gap
Caldari
The Lantern Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.20 20:05:00 -
[48]
Weall -- that is all fine and dandy, but meeting a MoM in low sec amounts to more or less ship loss nowadays.
Unless you can run fast enough, you ll be tied down, webbed, and shot up in no time.
Even in a battleship - even if you dont wanna fight.
Because - if you want to fight - you re toast anyhow (option1) or the MoM runs away once it sees its not gonna score (option2).
Not sayin this is unfair, its just not risk vs reward anymore - is it ?
Gap
Attention you need. Children play in the snow aloud.
The cat has been podded! |
Putah
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Posted - 2007.08.21 10:57:00 -
[49]
i love how he is complaining about being outgunned, but i bet you 100 quid he wouldnt be complaining about shooting a cruiser in a BS, same difference imo, its just you aint the biggest fish in the pond anymore...
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.21 10:59:00 -
[50]
Exept a battleship cannot simply vanish if its is tackled by a frig or cruiser wolfpack.
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shamai
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:01:00 -
[51]
Oh no, they are defending themselves somehow!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4b5bip_tVA
There is always a bigger fish.....
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:29:00 -
[52]
Well Tri are pretty good at baiting and killing caps in lowsec and 0.0, If they can do it cant you too?
Originally by: Rawne Karrde
PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
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heheheh
Singularity.
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:33:00 -
[53]
Edited by: heheheh on 21/08/2007 11:34:44
Originally by: Saltire
Originally by: SiJira
well if you got a capital
use it
if you dont GTFOAS
i do have one, but i refuse to use it to gank 1 person.....
what the hell does GTFOAS mean?
Ignore him its forum troll gibberish.
He speaks out his other hole if u get what i mean,
and I dont aggree with you,
he was just outgunned the same as a cruiser would have been if it bumped into your m8.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.08.21 11:57:00 -
[54]
Originally by: heheheh
Edited by: heheheh on 21/08/2007 11:34:44
Originally by: Saltire
Originally by: SiJira
well if you got a capital
use it
if you dont GTFOAS
i do have one, but i refuse to use it to gank 1 person.....
what the hell does GTFOAS mean?
Ignore him its forum troll gibberish.
He speaks out his other hole if u get what i mean,
and I dont aggree with you,
he was just outgunned the same as a cruiser would have been if it bumped into your m8.
first its her
second it means GTFO alliance space
third dont insult me just cause you dont agree with using caps
____ __ ________
_sig below_
devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
_lies above_
CCP Morpheus was here 
Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.08.21 12:55:00 -
[55]
if it was up to me the cap/pos warfare "i win" bottoms, would be rethinked and remade
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Loch Heart
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Posted - 2007.08.21 13:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Da Ram
But - EVE is about risk vs reward and I do not see ANY risk involved here.
Ram
Eve is a ôGameö. You play it, not analyze it.
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Miz Cenuij
kleptomaniacs
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Posted - 2007.08.21 15:16:00 -
[57]
I fly a Nyx as some of you may know.
I HAVE nearly lost it on several occasions to well co-ordinated attacks. However my leet skills and with some help from my mates I have just about got through it (long live cookies made in Panama! )
You say the guy cyno'd onto you? In that case his ship had very low cap, not enough to jump out and not enough to sustain his tank against any form of concentrated attack. He was vunerable. Jesus, even a shuttle can bump a MS (happens a lot while I camp  ).
When he cyno'd in you had a golden chance to kill a MS and you failed because you didn't have the manpower behind you to back it up, so instead you whine on the forums. Get a clue sunshine. If the roles were reversed you wouldn't have been complaining. The green eyed monster has taken a hold on you.
Long live the Cookie monster - Stoner on the gate !
"Men are going to die..
and im going to kill them". |
Mindhack
Silent Scream
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Posted - 2007.08.21 15:18:00 -
[58]
<3 i have precensed it is possible but baby jesus was on our side stoner on the gate long live miz in mizland!
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Nyack
GREY COUNCIL
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.21 15:32:00 -
[59]
i would say using a mom in combat is high risk in low sec aswell.. there are tons of guys like us having chars spread out all of low sec that have moms of our own and the ability field good cap numbers very fast.. there been evolving chance of getting good cap fights in low sec these days. ships bumped of station, small camps etc. the nature of jumpdrives you really dont know what your enemies are capable of bringing until they have cynos comming up next to you =)
as more and more gets into moms the chance to catch one with limited support increases. just a matter of time =)
caps are the new BS
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Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.21 15:36:00 -
[60]
Eve is not fair. What I'm hearing is that the OP wants to be able to kill a 35 Billion isk ship with a Frigate. Get 35 Billion isk worth of ships together, and I'm sure you'll kill a mothership. Probably Alpha-Strike it. I neither sympthasize nor condone any changes to the current mechanics.
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