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Capt Rob
Minmatar
Black Omega Security
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.13 12:18:00 -
[1]
Hey all,
Want to have a discussion about this new idea for a carrier siege mode. i like alot of the bonus's etc. Im weary about the lack of ew protection, and the fact you cant use your drones while in this mode. A dread can use its guns, why cant a carrier use its fighters? Also, the remote rep duration bonus's could screw with cap issues.
Just some ideas, i know this module is still new and nothings final, but some ideas.
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Jake Noble
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.13 12:30:00 -
[2]
I think some form of immune to dampening / ECM should be added to the triage module tbh.
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Jai Cee
Quam Singulari
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.13 13:19:00 -
[3]
The triage module looks fantastic, damage removal is a good idea as it forces a carrier to either commit to doing damage with fighters or doing lots of repping. It could do with having a lock range bonus inbuilt to overcome dampening and maybe an increase in sensor strength for ECM.
Its unclear to me whether you can still delegate fighters in this mode and whether the damage reduction applies only to fighters and not drones or to both.
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Gol'D Roger
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.13 13:28:00 -
[4]
i think this makes the Nidhoggur a bit more useful tho sum say its only about 1 sec its up to 25% and that means up to 25% more boost.
the Archon gets the most out of this the Chimera also has its profits.
the Thanatos has no big use for this considering its bonuses. its still the best damage dealer and has an good ew layout but fighters need fixing and this module has no special use for this carrier. the Thanatos was one of the best carriers but considering its unspecialized use for this module it cud fall behind so fixing fighters is the best way to balance this again. still tanatos wont be as frontline as the others will be.
the nidhoggur has allot of profit from this module (it really needed a boost)
but anyways a sige module for carrier still is not that useful in big fleets cos they cant get remote reped so i asum it will be very good behind front line in reping range to unsieged capitals
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Tis is my forum alt. My acc are not running simultaneous. My charas are Hitokiri 'ger and skiganon
WTB Minmatar X-Type Ducktape |
Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
Captain Morgan Society
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Posted - 2007.05.13 19:48:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Gol'D Roger
the Thanatos was one of the best carriers but considering its unspecialized use for this module it cud fall behind so fixing fighters is the best way to balance this again. still tanatos wont be as frontline as the others will be.
I disagree with this. In my opinion, the thanatos is one of the best frontline carriers because it can do both shield and armor rep, where the chimera and archon are limited to their respective tanking type and energy transfer. The only carrier that's actually better than the thanatos for remote repping is the nidhoggur, and in triage mode its cap is going to evaporate quickly.
As a tradeoff, in non-triage mode you get okay dps with fighters where the nid is stuck with a subpar bonus...
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Pattern Clarc
Celtic Anarchy
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Posted - 2007.05.13 20:02:00 -
[6]
Can you be remote repped in triage mode....
[size=34]?[/size]
Also, as it stands, the remote cap transfers generate a **** load of cap out of noting in traige mode.
This is only balanced tentitivily be the lack of dps of carriers in siege, but used well, i can imagine a carrier group being next to unpenitrble using current technology.
To put it into perpective, 5 carriers could tank 10 dreads, with average resists of 75%...
dooom.... Doooom.... DOOOOOOOM!!!
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.05.14 05:06:00 -
[7]
+100% effect and -50% cycle time is a bit over the top, its the same as a dread in siege gets and dreads are supposed to tank better then carriers imho
This way chimera and archon outtank their respective dread counterparts, which seems wrong.
Id like to see the removal of the cycle time bonus (thereby reducing the effective increase to x2 instead of x4) and adding an ew immunity or at least significant sensor strengh and range bonus to the Triage module, e.g. +100% sensor str and locking range.
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Kublai Khan
Caldari
TAOSP
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.14 05:50:00 -
[8]
Seems unfair that the Thanatos is the only carrier which cant use its bonus when in siege tho. In that case maybe they could up the damage to 10% damage pr level again when its not in siege, thought I`d preffer that the carriers can actually use their fighters while sieging
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Follow me if I advance,
Kill me if i retreat,
Avenge me if i fall. |
Foxy Cleopatra
Caldari
Carnivore Ince
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Posted - 2007.05.14 06:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Amy Wang
This way chimera and archon outtank their respective dread counterparts, which seems wrong.
Outtank and do what exactly? A Dread can at least shoot something, a carrier will be sitting duck and most likely run out of cap in 30 secs if it actually wants to tank + remote rep.
IMHO a useless mod in its current form.
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ArtemisEntreri
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.14 06:23:00 -
[10]
The biggest thing I see Triage mode doing is making carriers boost pos shields effectively 4? times better.
This mode really gimps the carriers tho I don't see why they need to lose drone use, just seems silly to me.
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Icome4u
IronPig
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2007.05.14 06:34:00 -
[11]
TY CCP for giving us some carrier love, but they are still some major issues.
#1 Triage Module is GREAT but it will KILL a carrier cap, even worst with shield tankers... at this point the Triage Module is only good to keep the carrier longer, i doubt someone will sacrifice his cap (and then carrier) to save 2 BS or a Dread...
#2 Fighters need some loving please... anything would help tbh. More dmg, or more hp or cheaper price.
TY CCP
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Big Al
The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen
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Posted - 2007.05.14 10:49:00 -
[12]
Rename to Sitting Duck Module I and you're all set.
Being locked down to 10km lock range (with 2 sensor boosters) with no ability to do any damage or heal anyone = win.
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Jai Cee
Quam Singulari
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.14 10:55:00 -
[13]
Triage mode looks great, removal of fighter use is pretty sensible otherwise theres no downside to this. If a dev could confirm whether the triage drone bonus effects just fighters or fighters and drones that would be great.
As it is plenty of carriers use a dual rep tank, certainly my ideal Thanatos setup features this. Triage is meant to be used in gangs and with several carriers you would simply single rep all of them and use remote energy/shield/armor transfers to help any carrier being shot. In this situation the cap issues are gone since you will use the same cap in triage with a single rep as with a dual rep but rep twice as much (reading the 100% bonus as doubling effectiveness rather than leaving rep amount as it is, this could also do with being confirmed by the devs). Not only that but you just got some more resists from gaining an extra low slot.
Carrier groups supporting BS just got a whole lot deadlier when this comes into force.
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Trev Kachanov
STK Scientific
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.30 04:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Big Al
Rename to Sitting Duck Module I and you're all set.
Being locked down to 10km lock range (with 2 sensor boosters) with no ability to do any damage or heal anyone = win.
first it was waaaaaaan i got jammed by a multispec now its, waaaaaaaaan i got damped by 5 different people and now i cant lock anything.
No EW immunity for carriers in triage mode, but a carrier should be able to run atleast 1 rep continuously without draining all it's cap.
Don't trip |
Icome4u
Caldari
Dark and Light inc.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Icome4u on 30/05/2007 09:10:47
Originally by: Tanis.
Triage Mode
The Triage Module is in effect a siege module for carriers and mother ships which boosts the logistics capabilities at the expense of offensive capabilities. While in Triage Mode the transfer amount is doubled and the duration is cut in half on logistics modules, the personal tanking is boosted and the ship is immune to EW. However the carrier/mothership is unable to move for the duration of the 10 minute Triage Mode cycle and cannot be assisted. To allow the ship to quickly assist an ally, Triage Mode increases scan resolution and max target locks significantly. Triage Mode also reduces offensive capabilities by dropping the number of fighters/drones that can be controlled to zero and by increasing capacitor need for: EW (ECM, ECM burst, remote ECM burst, remote sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, target painters) and propulsion jamming (stasis webs and warp disruptors). Triage Mode will not be available to logistics cruisers which will be boosted instead.
FACTS (From the latest Dev blog)
Carriers in Triage Mode = Immune to EW SAME as Dread in Seige mode.
Carriers will run out of cap in 2 mins if they try to moderatly tank and rep people. (CCP wants it like that, i guess we will need to sacrifice our Carrier to save 2-3 BS... )
______
Originally by: Vyger
If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?
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Terradoct
Gallente
shock-WAVE corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:30:00 -
[16]
Triage module is death sentince to a carrier that will turn it on. Nice work CCP, pls give at least one good reason to fit it in my chimera.
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Unfamed II
FinFleet
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Posted - 2007.05.30 14:00:00 -
[17]
So, siege=triage, in a sense.
Make triage mod need logistics 5, to bring it in line with siege mod then.
Going easy mode in everything is not the way to go. I'd happily train logistics 5 for something useful, alone it ain't much of a killer 
And yes, I do know that triage mod needs some low rank skills @ 5, but everyone flying a carrier has those anyways.
- -
Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
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Chronus26
Gallente
Team Laser Explosion
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.30 15:13:00 -
[18]
Don't see how you are gonna have any cap problems remote repping people. Unless you just plan on locking stuff, turning on Remote reps and going afk or somthing.
Triage is pretty clearly designed for providing massive bursts of reapirs on very short notice, not providing a sustained stream of repairs.
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Alski
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.30 16:01:00 -
[19]
IMHO the biggest weakness of carriers has always been electronic warfare, there role as a fleet support ship tends to be invalidated far too easily as they always get called EW primary.
Before you had the option of just assigning fighters, but unless you've got a POS in system to hang around at with improved probes its much more risky, and if you have the firepower in system that’s capable of supporting a carrier then it might as well be on the front with the rest of the fleet, in which case you *really* do not want to be assigning fighters to other people.
 Good sides of Triage mode:
Biggest factor by far: EW immunity and sensor res boost. Actually being able to lock gangmates before they pop, or even being able to establish a lock on half the battleships in your fleet because of increased max number of targets is a huge bonus to there logistics capability, there is a chance if its good enough, with a few carriers we may beable to actually remote tank a BS that gets called primary, of course that remains to be tested.
Ability to basically "turtle" if you massively screw up and get locked down under serious firepower and tank an insane amount of DPS (duel reps X 200% bonus) while reinforcements arrive, note that this will not save you vs. a decent sized gang of other carriers / dreads though so not overpowered, esp. as you can't do any damage.
Bad sides:
No damage output at all.
Have to admit until I read this thread I hadn't considered this much of a problem, it’s a trade off, make your fleet rock solid, or do damage, not both.
Problem I now realise is I still have doubts about how effective remote repping a target that’s gotten called primary is going to be, in a 20 BS vs. 20 BS + 3 Carriers fight I can see Triage mode being a big win, above that... probably not, however in that kinda fight its highly questionable weather Triage mode would be of more value than the DPS of ~40 fighters.
Weather or not carriers should be able to launch drones/fighters in Triage mode is a big question of balance, I a fleet fight, I think it would actually be ok, as although you could both dish out huge firepower and remote rep your fleet, there is the fairly huge penalty of your Carrier - and therefore your fleet being locked in position for TEN MINUTES - an amount of time that is actually very excessive - yes its inline with dreadnaughts siege mode, however this is combat support we're dealing with, not POS siegeing.
Unfortunately I don't see CCP changing there minds on this, since in small scale combat, ie: lone carrier in triage mode WITH fighter / drone capability fighting 10 enemy BS - it would probably be insanely overpowered and eat the BS's like they were cookie dough.
Cap usage.
At some point I'll get round to simulating it on quickfit, but already I'm pretty sure that even 2 remote shield / armor arrays in triage mode at -50% duration time is going to absolutely kill your cap and fast at that.
If a situation comes up where you've been remote repping your fleet and are then called primary or get attacked by another capital, your probably screwed.
At least for armor tankers the ~10k shield HP will give you a short break to stop remote transfer arrays and regain a bit of cap, but not so for Caldari who's carriers are already a bit gimped.
Again there is the problem of the 10 minute timer being too long, if the battle lasts that long you will be out of cap - I'd pretty much guarantee it.
Triage mode should probably give a bonus to cap regen imho.
Carrier = Fleet support, OR: Fleet = Carrier support?
It’s a serious question, because with Triage mode the idea is that Carriers keep the fleet alive, however with there "wait for me I'm stuck here for 10 minutes" triage mode, its really the fleet defending the carrier until its able to defend itself or even move.
continued...
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Alski
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.30 16:02:00 -
[20]
I'm pretty sure that many FC's are going to be very hesitant to tell there Carrier pilots to push a button that makes an entire fleet immobile for 10 minutes - again this is not POS warfare and these are not dreadnaughts..... Unless... CCP wants all fleet battles in the future to be just like POS warfare.
Again I have doubts about the 10 minute timer, it’s a nice round number however its VERY arbitrary.
Fitting a Carrier.
This is just nasty - from what I understand other carriers have fitting problems, such as the Nidhoggur and Chimera, but now we actually have to choose how our carriers are going to operate before even entering the battlefield - this is wrong.
I am talking about the fact that we still only have 5 highslots.
So basically your looking at 2 basic setups
- 4x DCU, 1x Faction Smarty
- 2x shield array, 2x armor array, 1x triage module (and I suspect this one will kill your cap in about 60 seconds flat in triage mode)
Sure you can have a median between the two, say 2x DCU, 1x shield array, 1x armor array, 1x Triage module, but that’s hardly optimal for either mode of operation.
If you’re the kind of carrier pilot who never undocks without a smartbomb, your kinda screwed, and god help you if you want to put that leadership level 5 to use on a warfare link.
Conclusion: we need more highslots.
Overall conclusion: I may yet have to change my signature back to the old one (boost carriers)
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Xinus
SteelVipers
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.05.30 16:26:00 -
[21]
The Triage Module in its current State is senseless...
You cant be supported by other carriers in range...
everybody who was involved in Cap ship battles know that Dreads in Siege are doomed to die when the enemy is engaging... the same will happen to Carriers in Triage mode...
Cap use to high
ok everythings is boosted but not the cap use... still a big issue on remote boosting
especially you have to tank the enemy forces alone... so you have to chose tank myself or help to tank the others... but if there is a real force on the otherside of the battlefield switching into triage is senseless...
no fight possible no fighter/drones
in my eyes ok... but then the benefit of triage should be much higher...
i tested the new stats on the logistics cruiser... they are awesome... and they even work better than a carrier...
Guardian reps with 4 Large remote repper about 1500 armor per 5 sec. cap keeps on about 50% and that little ship work on a range of 70km... with a ab it gets a speed of 400m/s and with a sig radius of 70m its hard to hit...
carrier has a bad range max skilled it has only a range of 52km
Cap use should be boosted in triage also should range be boosted...
and the carrier needs a bigger cargo size if they have to use strontium for triage...
Greetz Xinus
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Rigsta
Gallente
Raddick Explorations
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.05.31 12:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alski
Fitting a Carrier.
This is just nasty - from what I understand other carriers have fitting problems, such as the Nidhoggur and Chimera, but now we actually have to choose how our carriers are going to operate before even entering the battlefield - this is wrong.
Sorry to just pluck one comment from a whole post, but isn't this is the same decision any pilot has to make when piloting any ship? Do I fit for tank, gank, support, fast-lock tackling, speed, or etc.? Eg. do I fit a rack of drone controllers or remote reps?
I've been meaning to ask this too: Can you still at least assign fighters while in triage mode?
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
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Alski
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rigsta
Originally by: Alski
Fitting a Carrier.
This is just nasty - from what I understand other carriers have fitting problems, such as the Nidhoggur and Chimera, but now we actually have to choose how our carriers are going to operate before even entering the battlefield - this is wrong.
Sorry to just pluck one comment from a whole post, but isn't this is the same decision any pilot has to make when piloting any ship? Do I fit for tank, gank, support, fast-lock tackling, speed, or etc.? Eg. do I fit a rack of drone controllers or remote reps?
I've been meaning to ask this too: Can you still at least assign fighters while in triage mode?
Yeah i should have explaned myself better, i mean that before haveing to fit triage we could actuley do a fairley good job of being fitted for both remote repair and combat at the same time (3x DCU + 2 arrays) but now with 1 less free highslot its a compromise.
I guess i'm trying to say "why should we have to compromise on a 1.5b isk ship"
Since it can't launch any drones in triage mode anyway, i don't think its at all overpowered to let us launch a decent amount of drones when we come out it.
Also since carriers just got one more module, i'd say its only fair to get one more highslot to put it in. 
Re: assigning fighters in triage mode - i havent tested it yet but i'm willing to bet isk that you will not be able to "-100% max active drone modifier" sounds fairley clear, unfortunateley.
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B Glorious
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.31 15:21:00 -
[24]
I think its pretty much essential for carriers in triage mode to be cap unstable, since a ship that can help other ships tank like dreads and allow itself to tank like a dread endlessly would be pretty unbalanced. It really should go without saying.
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Alski
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 16:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: B Glorious
I think its pretty much essential for carriers in triage mode to be cap unstable, since a ship that can help other ships tank like dreads and allow itself to tank like a dread endlessly would be pretty unbalanced. It really should go without saying.
Agreed, however its a question of how unstable, if we're going to be frozen for 10 minutes - thats a hell of a commitment, and your carrier better be able to backup the fleet for that long, so cap *may* be a big problem and *might* need a boost, again this brings up the question of weather 10 minutes is too long.
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B Glorious
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.31 17:01:00 -
[26]
I think the decision they want you to make when fitting a carrier and intending to use triage mode is "should I give up my tanking ability by fitting more cap mods and less hardeners/reps so I can rep someone else a bit more, or should I try to tank a bit more but have less sustainability?"
If there is no reason to use alternate setups, then that is also philosophically overpowered. Though I should mention that taking down a carrier without the bonuses from triage mode in less than ten minutes requires, in most cases, such an overwhelming force that it might as well be considered dead anyway. (except for Nidhoggurs, they tank pretty pitifully and that's a separate issue entirely) |
Alski
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 17:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: B Glorious
I think the decision they want you to make when fitting a carrier and intending to use triage mode is "should I give up my tanking ability by fitting more cap mods and less hardeners/reps so I can rep someone else a bit more, or should I try to tank a bit more but have less sustainability?"
I don't think any sane Carrier pilot is going to take the offer of "gimp your tank and then sit in one spot for 10 minutes while you try to keep us all alive" particuley well.
Besides this is more a question of the basic principle of Triage mode, In a worst case scenario, where your fleet has been destroyed, if you were given the choice between going in fighting and at least doing a worthy amount of damage before being taken down (plus a tiny chance of escape) or being a glorified Osprey for 10 minutes after which you can't even fight back properly because you have no DCU's and no Smartbombs, and a tank that has been nurfed for better cap regen.
Personally I'd much rather go into battle fighting, unless I was VERY confident that Triage mode could turn the tide of a battle, (and not run out of cap halfway through) and I'd prefer it if once I'm out of Triage mode I could actually defend myself, its hardly overpowered since it can only do one of these things at a time.
It is a very tricky question of ballance, but if its not right people just won't use it.
I'm actuley starting to think this isent supposed to be a combat boost at all, its a way to make it easyer for us to sit at a POS and repair the new damageable guns. 
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.05.31 18:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alski
I don't think any sane Carrier pilot is going to take the offer of "gimp your tank and then sit in one spot for 10 minutes while you try to keep us all alive" particuley well.
Actually, once triage mode comes in that's exactly what I'm going to do. I'll probably drop my second repper for a faction power relay, anyway.
And I'd do it for the same reason you don't try and tank shield and armor at the same time, you won't be good at either. I'm not going to be shot at until my support is dead, so my chances of surviving in triage actually increase if I put all effort into preventing their extermination...
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B Glorious
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.31 18:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Alski
I don't think any sane Carrier pilot is going to take the offer of "gimp your tank and then sit in one spot for 10 minutes while you try to keep us all alive" particuley well.
Besides this is more a question of the basic principle of Triage mode, In a worst case scenario, where your fleet has been destroyed, if you were given the choice between going in fighting and at least doing a worthy amount of damage before being taken down (plus a tiny chance of escape) or being a glorified Osprey for 10 minutes after which you can't even fight back properly because you have no DCU's and no Smartbombs, and a tank that has been nurfed for better cap regen.
Personally I'd much rather go into battle fighting, unless I was VERY confident that Triage mode could turn the tide of a battle, (and not run out of cap halfway through) and I'd prefer it if once I'm out of Triage mode I could actually defend myself, its hardly overpowered since it can only do one of these things at a time.
It is a very tricky question of ballance, but if its not right people just won't use it.
I'm actuley starting to think this isent supposed to be a combat boost at all, its a way to make it easyer for us to sit at a POS and repair the new damageable guns.
You should try relying on not leaving on your reps/boosters indefinitely. It repairs four times as much and uses twice the cap in a time period, but it doubles the cap efficiency of each rep. If you pulsed it instead of running it continuously, you'd get more out of each cap spent, but admittedly its not the best thing to do in every situation. (which it shouldn't be)
Here's two scenarios where it'd be a great time to use triage mode:
1) You're in a carrier and somehow you get attacked by an enemy force that puts your ship in danger. Hit triage mode, call for reinforcements to fight them off, and tank them until they arrive. This is only using half of the triage mode's abilities so far, but its a use nonetheless.
2) A more enticing use is this scenario: A carrier with some battleship, command ship, and other kind of support goes up against a more numerous force that consists largely of ships well-suited to destroying fighters, such as frigates and sniping cruisers such as Eagles and Munnins. Since deploying fighters could have little effect against them and would be too dangerous to risk, the carrier pilot instead chooses to go into triage mode and give support to its gangmates, which have now gained a significant upper hand for the next few minutes or longer. After its gangmates have weakened their enemies' anti-fighter capabilities, it doesn't go into triage mode anymore and launches its fighters to finish the job.
Even if its not cap stable for too long, it requires of the pilot more strategic assignment of remote repairs. If it really turns out in the next couple months that its pretty clearly just too cap unstable after all, then perhaps it'd be time to consider changes, but if they are immune to ewar while in triage (which they seem to be now, could be a fluke), I am totally opposed to making them any less cap dependent than they are now. |
Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2007.05.31 20:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Big Al
Rename to Sitting Duck Module I and you're all set.
Being locked down to 10km lock range (with 2 sensor boosters) with no ability to do any damage or heal anyone = win.
I don't think that is possible.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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