Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
71
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 00:56:06 -
[1] - Quote
You may have noticed the new blood raider sotiyo being destroyed by a fleet of speed tanking t1 frigates earlier today. Now lets not bash on CCP for not seeing this coming, it's just counterproductive. what are your ideas for making the br sotiyo less exploitable? The most likely contenders seem to be either point defense and/or a web and scram fitted to the station. blood raiders are known for web bonuses afterall. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3929
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 01:30:29 -
[2] - Quote
No matter what you do a human player will it out play the ai plug this ands we will find another. Besides the easier they are too farm the cheaper the bpcs will be
BLOPS Hauler
|
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
71
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 02:27:47 -
[3] - Quote
That's a popular saying to be sure, but consider if we made the sotiyo have infinite hp and concord levels of response fleets. tada, a simple thought experiment shows it to be a fallacy. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
415
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 03:33:44 -
[4] - Quote
Ok, unless the AI is literally unbeatable the human players will always win. You can try all you want to make better AI, but in the end it's still following a pre-made script with a limited set of possible responses. And a fixed script will never be as clever as human opponents that can adapt as needed. The players will always be able to figure out how it works and then develop an ideal counter-strategy, whatever that strategy may be. All you can do is hope to keep the experience interesting long enough for people to enjoy it a bit before the ideal strategy is found and the farming begins.
And no, "just give it more damage/tank, but not CONCORD level" is not an option. If you make its raw stats high enough that even the cleverest and most determined farmers can't reduce it to a farmable resource then everyone else is going to have zero chance. A level of damage/tank that can challenge the best attempts at farming will be instant death to anything less, and only a tiny minority will even be able to attempt the new content. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3929
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 03:59:58 -
[5] - Quote
to be fair considering only one of these exist at a time it will only be farmed. there are not going to be casual groups going after them
BLOPS Hauler
|
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
71
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 07:09:56 -
[6] - Quote
I think that it won't do to write off every possible pve event in eve as 100% farmable, unless you can give me the logical proof. This is the first time we've had an event that purposefully scales with the people doing it, so why not try and see if there is a way to make it better? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3930
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 08:04:10 -
[7] - Quote
the only way to make something so that it is not farmable is to put some bull restriction on it like "can only do once every X"
BLOPS Hauler
|
Do Little
Virgin Plc Evictus.
1203
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 08:46:45 -
[8] - Quote
The players are supposed to win. The AI is supposed to provide an enjoyable challenge. Right now we're training the algorithm. I doubt there is any "deep learning" going on given the time constraints and limited available processing power but it should be possible to train a decision tree to provide an adaptive AI that puts up a good fight before losing. |
Rhaegon Aesir
Static-Shock
6
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 09:00:46 -
[9] - Quote
I...don't think the AI can "learn" anything, it's not that advanced. CCP programmed it to respond to certain actions in certain ways and that's it. It didn't have any response for massed frigates that was effective, so we got the current outcome. Now it's up to CCP to add a proper response, it won't get "trained" by itself. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3930
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 09:19:22 -
[10] - Quote
what they needed to do if CCP is listening is call in a bunch of carriers with superiority fighters even with the damage reduction they make a mess out of frigs so long as they are not out running the fighters
BLOPS Hauler
|
|
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
415
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 09:33:25 -
[11] - Quote
Fek Mercer wrote:I think that it won't do to write off every possible pve event in eve as 100% farmable, unless you can give me the logical proof. This is the first time we've had an event that purposefully scales with the people doing it, so why not try and see if there is a way to make it better?
There's no logical proof, just experience with EVE and game design in general. The AI can never be a meaningful challenge in a game like EVE because the AI is not as smart as players. You can give it a complex script to run from, but in the end it's still a script and the players will figure out how the script works. So one of two things happens:
1) The players have the advantage of facing an opponent where they know every move the AI is going to make, and adapting their own strategies to counter the script. It might take a while to figure out the optimal strategy to beat the script, but once it's done farming the content becomes a simple matter of correctly executing the optimal strategy.
or
2) The players have that advantage, but the AI has sufficient advantages in raw stats (CONCORD damage/tank, for example) that even when you know exactly what move the AI is going to pick the AI still wins. The AI "wins" each fight, but because the AI is impossible to defeat nobody wastes time on that particular content.
Scaling doesn't magically escape the problem because the scaling is still run from a script. The players will figure out the optimal number of ships to bring, where the player fleet has its maximum advantage over the AI, and bring it every time. If having 50 ships triggers an escalation then every farming fleet will take 49 ships, or significantly more than 50 ships so they're one ship short of the next escalation trigger. The scaling script may require more work to analyze than, say, the script for a level 4 mission, but in the end it becomes just one more rule in defining the perfect farming strategy. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3930
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 09:43:24 -
[12] - Quote
basically the only way the AI can keep up with the players is with the devs constantly updating and adapting retroactively and tbh there is better things to do with their time.
BLOPS Hauler
|
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3924
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 13:17:34 -
[13] - Quote
Ai in any game that does not constantly change is eventually farmable. Players will keep trying different things until something works. Then they will keep doing what works, perfecting the process until the maximum reward is gained from the minimum amount of effort. This is as inevitable as the sun coming up unless the ai changes, look at what players have done with burners and drifters. Constantly changing it to be a challenge is a lot of time, effort and money. And players adapt faster than ai can be written. Don't get your hopes up.
This is why pvp is higher quality content that keeps players for longer. Players constantly adapt to eachother all the time. Its quick and free 'content updating'.
So whilst periodic pve updates are good for bringing a bit of life to the game, it's a bad idea to rely on it for content. Especially in a game like eve. NPC's are best used for setting the stage for players to interact.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3930
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 13:32:57 -
[14] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:NPCs are best used for setting the stage for players to interact.
This and the new BR sites do just this. The real challenge isn't beating the rats it's beating the other groups after the same prize
BLOPS Hauler
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2890
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 17:27:58 -
[15] - Quote
Working as intended. CCP designed a PVE site that anybody could attempt to run. It's accessible content for everyone. Not just players like me with 200m+ SP and ten years experience playing the game. It doesn't require 250+ Machariels. It doesn't require Capitals or Supercapitals. Literally anyone can do this site. And that is a great thing. Especially once the other pirate factions start putting up their own Sotiyos and there are potentially 5 of these sites up at the same time.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
3037
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 18:36:41 -
[16] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:NPCs are best used for setting the stage for players to interact. This and the new BR sites do just this. The real challenge isn't beating the rats it's beating the other groups after the same prize I doubt that. If these shipyards can get farmed by Punishers, there's no incentive for someone else to fight that. Similar as Entosis stuff it's just not worth it.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Lothros Andastar
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
308
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 22:07:04 -
[17] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:NPCs are best used for setting the stage for players to interact. This and the new BR sites do just this. The real challenge isn't beating the rats it's beating the other groups after the same prize I doubt that. If these shipyards can get farmed by Punishers, there's no incentive for someone else to fight that. Similar as Entosis stuff it's just not worth it. Bring your supers with bomb fighters to kill them all. Or bring a domi fleet with Warrior II's |
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3925
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 22:20:32 -
[18] - Quote
There is, rivr. Pirate bpc's.
Whilst the npc's can be beat by punishers, the punishers can be beaten by players. And thats how escalation starts.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
3933
|
Posted - 2017.05.20 23:57:39 -
[19] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:NPCs are best used for setting the stage for players to interact. This and the new BR sites do just this. The real challenge isn't beating the rats it's beating the other groups after the same prize I doubt that. If these shipyards can get farmed by Punishers, there's no incentive for someone else to fight that. Similar as Entosis stuff it's just not worth it.
Those bpcs are pretty worth it
BLOPS Hauler
|
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 02:46:19 -
[20] - Quote
What if each Sotiyo has increased resistance to what killed the last one? Little ships kill it, the next one gets decent webs and smaller guns. Capitals kill the next, and it switches out for anticapital stuff, but loses some of the webs and small guns. If a completely balanced fleet shows up, not much would happen.
Each kill modifies the station a little. Maybe have a RNG choose some of the fitting tendencies as well? But at least it would be a little interesting to probe the station, figure out what it's using, and figure out a way to counter it.
And as players use tactics less, the station drops those counters in favor of what it's adapting to. Then players switch back, and the Sotiyo switches back. On the plus side, this tactic relies on rats dying, and they're MEANT to die, so that's not horrible.
Depends on how NPC guns work, I guess. Might be a lot of work, considering the % of EVE players who engage the things. |
|
Rhaegon Aesir
Static-Shock
6
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 04:34:09 -
[21] - Quote
Lothros Andastar wrote:Bring your supers with bomb fighters to kill them all. Or bring a domi fleet with Warrior II's
I mean they already tried 20+ Rattlesnakes with logi, and they got absolutely rekt by the blood raiders...and with the escalations, somehow I doubt supers would fare much better. |
Cade Windstalker
1541
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 05:18:54 -
[22] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Working as intended. CCP designed a PVE site that anybody could attempt to run. It's accessible content for everyone. Not just players like me with 200m+ SP and ten years experience playing the game. It doesn't require 250+ Machariels. It doesn't require Capitals or Supercapitals. Literally anyone can do this site. And that is a great thing. Especially once the other pirate factions start putting up their own Sotiyos and there are potentially 5 of these sites up at the same time.
Normally I'd agree, but we're talking about something that drops Faction Capital BPCs. It sorta feels like the investment required for this should be a bit more than a blob of speed tanked Frigates worth less than a few blinged out mission battleships.
It's not so much that someone beat it, it's that they beat it in a way that's really hard to drop on from a PvP perspective, and really really cheap compared to the rewards.
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:Lothros Andastar wrote:Bring your supers with bomb fighters to kill them all. Or bring a domi fleet with Warrior II's I mean they already tried 20+ Rattlesnakes with logi, and they got absolutely rekt by the blood raiders...and with the escalations, somehow I doubt supers would fare much better.
Anyone who played around with these things on the test server could have told you that fleet was going to get rolled in hilarious fashion. They didn't have nearly enough Logi or DPS and the minimum spawn for the Blood Raiders seems to be at least a few dozen cruisers plus Logi and EWar ships.
Dropping capitals actually works *really* well because the Blood Raider capitals spit right out of the Sotiyo and aren't all that effective. Since there's no Supers that they can drop a Titan seems to chew through the dreads pretty quick. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
534
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 05:51:55 -
[23] - Quote
They've tried to make an EVE raid. Again.
Even in games centered around raiding, most of the playerbase never touched the very top-level raids. If you try to make these about on the difficulty level of those kinds of raids and succeed, most of the playerbase just won't touch them after they figure out they're insanely difficult. Then there's the other problem with difficult content in EVE: it requires you to fit a very certain way, which means anyone wanting to mess with you has a pretty good idea of your fit.
Leaving a bunch of forces sitting around with nothing to do but wait for the site team to finish is... yaaaaaawn. I guess there are sigs and anoms in the surrounding systems to run?
Tangent: maybe reducing the tank checks in higher DED complexes would make the fits of the ships running them a little less predictable. Lower "difficulty" PvE means more choice in how you approach it: do you go maximum efficiency, or do you want to bring a surprise for the guy who decided it was a good idea to mess with you in that site you were running?
A signature :o
|
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
3037
|
Posted - 2017.05.21 06:06:57 -
[24] - Quote
Lothros Andastar wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:NPCs are best used for setting the stage for players to interact. This and the new BR sites do just this. The real challenge isn't beating the rats it's beating the other groups after the same prize I doubt that. If these shipyards can get farmed by Punishers, there's no incentive for someone else to fight that. Similar as Entosis stuff it's just not worth it. Bring your supers with bomb fighters to kill them all. Or bring a domi fleet with Warrior II's Supers with bomb fighters are useless against a fleet of hundreds of Punishers orbiting the structure. Not to mention that the punisher fleet can just kill the supers one after another. And not to mention that bringing supers deep into any territory that is held by a big local group is not possible. Same goes for a Dominix fleet. It's not possible, it's not fun and not worth it.
And before someone calls me pessimist: This is the realist speaking, not the pessimist. CONDI, for instance, drops dozens of supers, titans, carriers and fax on ceptor fleets. How do you think they will respond to a super or Dominix fleet slowboating towards that structure?
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
|
Hexakosioi Hexekontahex
Renovatio Invaders LowSechnaya Sholupen
2
|
Posted - 2017.05.24 13:52:15 -
[25] - Quote
I would like to be able to fight on the side of the Blood Raiders, so that NPC understands that I'm on their side |
Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2017.05.24 16:47:31 -
[26] - Quote
To me, the simple solution would be a dynamic response to current conditions. Computational restrictions aside, of course.
For example, from the perspective of the AI:
I'm losing subcaps to T1 frigates. They are kiting me. My counter-kiting mechanics are carriers engaging the kitey ships.
I'm losing fighters. My counter is HAW dreads.
I'm losing carriers, they're taking damage from dreadnoughts. My counter-dread mechanic is dreadnoughts engaging their dreadnoughts.
I'm losing battleships to mixed subcaps. They're kiting. My counter-kiting mechanic is to launch a wave of tackle ships and try to close in.
So on and so forth. Heck, you could even have the BR Sotiyo "probing" the enemy fleets (abstracted concept... you'd see probes, but it would just give their tackle/brawl ships a warp-in on your kiting fleet a few seconds after you see the probes).
You start with your T1 frigate kite cancer, which works great until they launch carriers or sniper-fit battleships. At which point, you either warp off and reship or ideally have a second squad warp in with guns to kill fighters or brawl the battleships.
The AI responds to your battleship brawling by launching tackle ships and pulling range - now your kitey cancer needs to swap over and tackle their tackle so you can keep brawling range on them.
Or if it launches fighters and you start sniping their fighters, it launches HAW dreads. Etc.
~~
In this regard, no single tactic will ever work. Yes, you will have a tactic that is effective for a time. But over time the AI will respond with a counter-mechanic. Which means you must adjust accordingly. This game is very much rock paper scissors, and there are clear counters to any single choice made by a player fleet... just as there are clear counters to every choice made by the AI. |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
308
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 11:50:12 -
[27] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:to be fair considering only one of these exist at a time it will only be farmed. there are not going to be casual groups going after them
That's my main issue with them, they provide nothing except a chance at a item for huge corps to farm in limited numbers. Even if there's only one of them it's not something 99.9% of people will ever see. Kind of just a pointless update for the top .01% that wasted time and resources. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3357
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 16:22:09 -
[28] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:to be fair considering only one of these exist at a time it will only be farmed. there are not going to be casual groups going after them That's my main issue with them, they provide nothing except a chance at a item for huge corps to farm in limited numbers. Even if there's only one of them it's not something 99.9% of people will ever see. Kind of just a pointless update for the top .01% that wasted time and resources.
While right now the thing might be rather limited, CCP has said they can now use this code to create new PvE stuff more accessible to everyone. They could for example make those replace current anomalies with a different scaling ratio. The current citadel sites are essentially the first implementation of their new PvE tool so they don't have to create everything from scratch every time they want to create some PvE content. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
3972
|
Posted - 2017.05.25 16:43:50 -
[29] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:to be fair considering only one of these exist at a time it will only be farmed. there are not going to be casual groups going after them That's my main issue with them, they provide nothing except a chance at a item for huge corps to farm in limited numbers. Even if there's only one of them it's not something 99.9% of people will ever see. Kind of just a pointless update for the top .01% that wasted time and resources.
.... they technically have the potential to be more common than the sansha super.
like all things in eve we come back to "it would be made better without incursions"
BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
|
Fek Mercer
Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy
71
|
Posted - 2017.05.26 11:31:33 -
[30] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote: There's no logical proof...
Actually, I think there is. Here's another thought experiment:
Lets say ccp plugs the gap of an exploit, like speedtanking while applying damage, or using waves of fighters from afar, or dogpiling the thing with long range titans, etc. Every time the players find an exploit, ccp plugs it in such a way that makes it a challenging fight again.
If we assume that players always find an exploit, then by the above logic there are an infinite number or ways to exploit the sotiyo. This is impossible, ergo the statement that "players can always find an exploit" is false.
The first thought that comes to mind is in the first part, that assumes ccp can always find a plug for an exploit, or always find one that doesn't make the sotiyo go from "challenge" to "almost unbeatable." The way to prove me wrong in this aspect would be to come up with a sound scenario that is impossible to fix without breaching the above conditions. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |