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Dreadnaught Fleet Problem shield versus Armour

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Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.16 20:44:00 - [31] Edited by: Deja Nay on 16/05/2007 20:44:22 Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/05/2007 20:25:35 I dont think CCP are too lazy to fix it - If crystals implants change even a fraction from what they are currently, then one can only imagine the sheer ferocity that the mission runners of eve will bring. In fact, crystal implants were changed to shield HP on test server 6-9 moths ago IIRC, and they mission runners came out in force reversing such a change! But I can see why. Someone who invested a couple bil into crystal implants purely for boost bonus will not want his investment wasted. People who acquire these implants would find their income drop drasticly if it was changed as well. And Mission runners outnumber the amount of shield tanking capital pilots, therefore I forsee no change anytime soon. I totally understand youre point however you really would think that something that affect such a big thing of the endgame content would be more importnant then some missionrunners who allways adapts but i guess skilling to another battleship takes so much longer time then skilling to a new dreadnaught. And by the way i did not buy the implants yet i just think its outrageous the imbalance between the capitals by something like this. You really think they would appreciate the hardcore players abit more :<
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 21:24:00 - [32] Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 21:23:11 Originally by: Deja Nay however you really would think that something that affect such a big thing of the endgame content would be more importnant then some missionrunners Just fyi. There are probably 100 or even 200-500 times more missionrunners in this game than capital pilots. And in this case, it's catering to the majority. Just because you can fly a dread does not make you special in /any/ way over a missionrunner. A missionrunner pays the subscription fee just like you do. For CCP, you and him are equal. Btw, since when hardcore = having capship? You've got to be fricking joking me. I know some people who login a few hours per month, not even every week and they have enough money to buy supercapitals. Just because you farmed your money from rats 8h/day doesn't make you hardcore, it makes you stupid compared to those who have done it the easy way :) Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.16 22:16:00 - [33] Edited by: Deja Nay on 16/05/2007 22:20:59 The easy way ? Research agent -> aquire t2 BPo -> sell order forum -> earn 40 bill did you mean mission running was the easy way err? But i guess its the same as when SOE started producing a EQ2 Starwars galaxies went down the drain, they really dont concentrate as much on fixing theyre old game and its understandable. Capital Piloting and 0.0 warfare is however the endgame where pretty much everyone goes in the end where the hardcore players are in for example BOB and MC, im by the way not saying that i am a hardcore player at all because im an capital pilot but an Imbalanced game function like this annoyes me =)
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 22:34:00 - [34] Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 22:38:08 your definition of hardcore is really messed up, as is your perception of fleetbattles in eve... You really need some more experience with that :( Easy way = using your brain. Complexes, trading, scamming, manufacturing/science or using other things ppl don't know for profit = smart way. Farming mission/npc/mining = dumb way. That's my definition at least. You might disagree :) Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.17 08:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 22:38:08 your definition of hardcore is really messed up, as is your perception of fleetbattles in eve... You really need some more experience with that :( Easy way = using your brain. Complexes, trading, scamming, manufacturing/science or using other things ppl don't know for profit = smart way. Farming mission/npc/mining = dumb way. That's my definition at least. You might disagree :) anyway back to topic
Rinaldo Titano Caldari Domus Fatalis FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.17 10:00:00 - [36] Than why not make an another implant for Shield HP and than mission runners would have the crystals unchanged?
Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.17 13:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Rinaldo Titano Than why not make an another implant for Shield HP and than mission runners would have the crystals unchanged? great idea but that sounds like they would have to work for theyre money and we both know thats not popular!
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:38:00 - [38] Originally by: Deja Nay i did not say in any way anything about 700 capital ships my point was that if for example the coallitions 200 dreads and bobs 150 dread faced eachother just to mention someone, there would only be able to be 350 support in the system just as the situation was when The coalition went in to kill the capital ship yard for BOB. or am i wrong ? and yes i have been in such figths =) But you put"support"in there,usually"support"includes intys and frigs that jump at the chance to kill a cap ship pilots pod...In that situation 38% more armor wont help you and once your in a pod it hurts your checkbook. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.17 15:28:00 - [39] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Deja Nay i did not say in any way anything about 700 capital ships my point was that if for example the coallitions 200 dreads and bobs 150 dread faced eachother just to mention someone, there would only be able to be 350 support in the system just as the situation was when The coalition went in to kill the capital ship yard for BOB. or am i wrong ? and yes i have been in such figths =) But you put"support"in there,usually"support"includes intys and frigs that jump at the chance to kill a cap ship pilots pod...In that situation 38% more armor wont help you and once your in a pod it hurts your checkbook. maybe but the ISk is not the problem the problem is that armour tankers have the option to get 38% extra Hp while shield tankers dont.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.18 06:24:00 - [40] Originally by: Deja Nay Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Deja Nay i did not say in any way anything about 700 capital ships my point was that if for example the coallitions 200 dreads and bobs 150 dread faced eachother just to mention someone, there would only be able to be 350 support in the system just as the situation was when The coalition went in to kill the capital ship yard for BOB. or am i wrong ? and yes i have been in such figths =) But you put"support"in there,usually"support"includes intys and frigs that jump at the chance to kill a cap ship pilots pod...In that situation 38% more armor wont help you and once your in a pod it hurts your checkbook. maybe but the ISk is not the problem the problem is that armour tankers have the option to get 38% extra Hp while shield tankers dont. In the situation of huge dread on dread fights 38% isnt worth as much as in smaller engagements,and even then if your primaried in a dread your probably the one thats left after your support died,therefore,youll just be nossed and that extra armor just buys you more time to smack in local at the cost of possibly losing a large sum of money. All in all dreads can tank but thats not their role,their role is to tank a pos until it switches targets and still getting out thousands of dps.... In conclusion I dont think 38% is worth billions unless your trying to buy time,if your in a cap ship and primaried its usually(note usually)just a matter of time whereas if you can tank them(which is not usual due to the nos tactic)then that 38% armor does nothing. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.18 06:49:00 - [41] I personally think cyrstals should work on dreads. Condsider this: ITs well known the caldari dread can't run its tank as long as other races, and its the primary shield tanking dread. Why should its tank not be able to be boosted via implants like other dreads? Myabe if they gave a set of implants to boost shield hp at the very least, but this is yet another example as to how armor trumps shields in pvp. Also, ryssa, its a good point that for the cost you can just use another dread, but bear this in mind: not every pilot can run two dreads at once on his computer, not everypilot wants to fly a dread either. So basically, many pilots would want their dread to be as strong as possible, who can blame them. MAny people do fly these really expensive implant sets for a reason, I know you like to fly interceptors with snake implants, its the same thing here. What if only the caldari got the snakes and you couldnt use them with minmatar? would that bug you?
Rinaldo Titano Caldari Domus Fatalis FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 07:24:00 - [42] As i wrote before, i think the best would be to have an implat set for shield tankers that gives for example the same % shield HP bonus as the Slave for armor, but incrase the rech time in same %. so would not be an "uber" for passive tankers, but could be great used on capitals. I think its very bad idee to let work Crystals on capitals, because than caldari capitals would be extreme overpovered. In best possible fitting, without any implant or gang bonus the Chimera can permatank over 15000 DPS avarge(on best resist over 26000 DPS), now imagine to this the gang bonus, and the Crystal set. And to change the Crystal is a bad idee too, because the poor missioners who fitted 2bil sets because shield boosting... for they would be worthless. But in the current state is not really fair that armor tankers can use the implant on all they ships, and shield tankers not, and thats have nothing to do with loosing money in battle or so. Im sure lot of peoples would use such implant and much more not, but dont give the possibility to choice is what unfair is. I know lot of armor tankers would argumenting with the recharge rate, and that armor reps repair just after shields are down, etc. But because this things are some + for armor tankers, for example they can use EW and full tank, or they base resist is higher, or they can put more reppers on without stacknerf, because they ned less cap(dont argue with ampifilers, because this are stuck nerfed, and dont argue that more reppers use more cap, because for example the archon can run 4 capital reppers perma(yes 4!!!)). So with this + and - are shield and armor very well balanced and for this part i grat to CCP, its very well designed. And the one ho sad that in fleet battle dont count as much the + armor, it counts. If u can pop every enemy ship in 138sec and they can pop every your ship in 100, than who would win? :)
hilaw	Posted - 2007.05.18 07:48:00 - [43] Wall of text above me? But as far as I am concerned capital shield hp implants are only fair if we get amour repair amount implants considering the amount each type is used crystals are the ones that should be whined about
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.18 08:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Fluffernator I personally think cyrstals should work on dreads. Condsider this: ITs well known the caldari dread can't run its tank as long as other races, and its the primary shield tanking dread. Why should its tank not be able to be boosted via implants like other dreads? Myabe if they gave a set of implants to boost shield hp at the very least, but this is yet another example as to how armor trumps shields in pvp. I agree tbh, since shieldtanks don't run perma, it would be kinda cool to mod them to be even more effective at short term. Quote: Also, ryssa, its a good point that for the cost you can just use another dread, but bear this in mind: not every pilot can run two dreads at once on his computer, not everypilot wants to fly a dread either. So basically, many pilots would want their dread to be as strong as possible, who can blame them. MAny people do fly these really expensive implant sets for a reason, I know you like to fly interceptors with snake implants, its the same thing here. What if only the caldari got the snakes and you couldnt use them with minmatar? would that bug you? Well, you could have 2nd dread ready in station, and like if you blow up one you just cyno in next one... I know it's not that simple, but essentially, using faction mods and pirate implants on your dread is rather stupid, you know... Because if you die, you die, faction gear or not. It takes a huge amount of dps/nos to bring down dread in siege mode, and if you're already getting owned in siege mode, all the faction stuff won't help you, since nothing except a pos should be firing at you in the first place. I guess what I am trying to say is - there are SO many more other things that are much more important than this that needs fixing. This is a very very minor issue, since I'd say few people really use pirate implants with their capital ships (except titans/motherships, it would be nice boost for leviathan/wyvern there...), so this issue is isolated to maybe a couple hundred people at most, so not worth the huge attention right now... Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Rinaldo Titano Caldari Domus Fatalis FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 08:17:00 - [45] Originally by: hilaw Wall of text above me? But as far as I am concerned capital shield hp implants are only fair if we get amour repair amount implants considering the amount each type is used crystals are the ones that should be whined about Agree
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.05.18 11:27:00 - [46] Originally by: Gawain Hill p.s. if you find such a fleet send in a 200+ strong fleet of frigs and crusiers bump one ship at a time so it can't warp away and laugh as each dread is slowly ripped apart by a swarm of frigs.... oh and have them all with high grade snake implants so that even when the dreads do lock they are going soo fast that they can't be hit :D Yes I'd like to see what your frigswarm does when the 50+ Moros i that fleet unleash their light drones of omfgpwnage and instant pop those frigs one by one. Plus the drones of the other dreads/carriers.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.18 11:55:00 - [47] Originally by: Ryysa I know it's not that simple, but essentially, using faction mods and pirate implants on your dread is rather stupid, you know... Problem is the phoenix dont have enough cpu to fit more then half its slots with t2. Only way to fit a phoenix is faction. CCP might wanna look into that before they look at stupid crystal sets no one use anyway.
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.18 12:02:00 - [48] i think the crystal<slave set on caps becomes a real problem when you look at lotherships and titans. those ships have massive hitpoints, and a 40%increase has a huge effect making the armor tanking ships way better then the shield ones. but ccp should also look into torps, as they are way to slow to be effective in battles, rlly annoying. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:15:00 - [49] This is a sad thing for me to say, but I really feel this way. If you want to be serious about pvp, train armor tanking and go minmater or gallente... This includes cap ships and dreads i'm afraid. SO rather then expect ccp to make a balanced game, just go train a different race, and leave caladari to PVE
Varriq Gallente R.u.S.H. - Fanatics	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:50:00 - [50] Edited by: Varriq on 18/05/2007 18:53:15 Originally by: Fluffernator This is a sad thing for me to say, but I really feel this way. If you want to be serious about pvp, train armor tanking and go minmater or gallente... This includes cap ships and dreads i'm afraid. SO rather then expect ccp to make a balanced game, just go train a different race, and leave caladari to PVE Not that true for dreadnoughts at least. Shield tank there have big benefits in fleetbattles as its: 1. Shield tank have much better resists - so, essencially, they may end up with similar "buffer" shield HP as armor tankers with FG slave set - and thats with cheap T2 fitting only! 2. Shield tank boost more 3. Shield booster give boost instantly and NOT in 24 (lol!) seconds as armor repair 4. Entire Armor serve as "buffer" for shied tankers as they can start tanking instantly after being hit. Armor tanker can only start tanking after shields are gone. All this for only 1 disadvnatage - they cant permaboost. But using caprelays Phoenix CAN permaboost similar amount of HP as armor tankers. P.S. Give us 32% armor active omni-resists... and we can think about shield tank slave set.
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:58:00 - [51] Well let me ask you then... do you prefer armor or shields for pvp?
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 20:00:00 - [52] Originally by: Fluffernator you can get some serious armor tanks on these dreads, and htats with several damage mods. wait wha?
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.18 20:31:00 - [53] Originally by: Varriq Edited by: Varriq on 18/05/2007 18:53:15 Originally by: Fluffernator This is a sad thing for me to say, but I really feel this way. If you want to be serious about pvp, train armor tanking and go minmater or gallente... This includes cap ships and dreads i'm afraid. SO rather then expect ccp to make a balanced game, just go train a different race, and leave caladari to PVE Not that true for dreadnoughts at least. Shield tank there have big benefits in fleetbattles as its: 1. Shield tank have much better resists - so, essencially, they may end up with similar "buffer" shield HP as armor tankers with FG slave set - and thats with cheap T2 fitting only! 2. Shield tank boost more 3. Shield booster give boost instantly and NOT in 24 (lol!) seconds as armor repair 4. Entire Armor serve as "buffer" for shied tankers as they can start tanking instantly after being hit. Armor tanker can only start tanking after shields are gone. All this for only 1 disadvnatage - they cant permaboost. But using caprelays Phoenix CAN permaboost similar amount of HP as armor tankers. P.S. Give us 32% armor active omni-resists... and we can think about shield tank slave set. Err... 1. First of all shields have lower base resis. Second of all all armor faction and officer mods are considerably cheaper than shield tanking ones. And EANM are pretty good with compensation skills. 2. 2x Capital Armor Rep = 800 hp/s whereas Capital Booster + Boost Amp = 832 hp/s. Pretty huge advantage huh? Not to mention that boost amplifiers and siege modules get a stacking penalty off eachother. 3. Yep, but the fact that it's one module running means you're very vulnerable to lag. You can't have your 1 repper running non-stop like armor tankers do and use the second one if needed. If you get lagged out you can get **** in two ways: booster won't activate, or booster won't deactivate and sucks your cap dry. 4. This, in fact, is one of the most important boons of an armor tank on Carriers, Motherships and Titans. Why? Because cap is life, and you need 71.5% cap to use jump drive. Now if you're armor tanked you can go into an engagement, take damage for a long while until the shield buffer is down and still have the opportunity to bail. If you're shield tanking, you have to make that decision straight away. A short period leaves much more room for misjudgement. That's not all either. Armor tanking capitals have more utility whereas shield tankers need to devote most mids to their tanks. Also, I can't believe people are still discussing specific situations and subjective views of what is affordable or riskworthy and what isn't. None of that matters.** And even if it did, you're completely ignoring supercapitals to which faction is T2 and officer is faction, so to speak. So please, stop arguing that it's all fair just because you personally wouldn't risk this or buy that or whatnot. In my case, I have both slave and crystal sets on different clones, and for no reason have I ever not used them in fights be they small gang roaming, POS busting or blobtastic fleet battles, both 0.0 and empire. I also fly a mothership, and were it armor tanked I sure as hell would benefit a lot from slaves. ---
Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.21 10:08:00 - [54] Sounds like a good sum up !
Best	Posted - 2007.06.10 18:27:00 - [55] well, do any of the shield hardwiring implants work?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.11 18:46:00 - [56] Edited by: madaluap on 11/06/2007 18:44:55 Originally by: Ryysa Because if you die, you die, faction gear or not. It takes a huge amount of dps/nos to bring down dread in siege mode, and if you're already getting owned in siege mode, all the faction stuff won't help you, since nothing except a pos should be firing at you in the first place. Why is it so dumb to fit faction gear? When dreads first entered the game, people got flamed to hell for fitting T2 on it. I would avoid trying to undock without a slave set imo.For a LG with hardwire (but no omega) you pay like 350 mil, who cares... That said, i can understand if you go a very large engagement you cannot be arsed, like you said if multiply dreads focus fire what is the point. But damn you make it sound far too black and white. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.11 20:20:00 - [57] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 11/06/2007 18:44:55 Originally by: Ryysa Because if you die, you die, faction gear or not. It takes a huge amount of dps/nos to bring down dread in siege mode, and if you're already getting owned in siege mode, all the faction stuff won't help you, since nothing except a pos should be firing at you in the first place. Why is it so dumb to fit faction gear? When dreads first entered the game, people got flamed to hell for fitting T2 on it. I would avoid trying to undock without a slave set imo.For a LG with hardwire (but no omega) you pay like 350 mil, who cares... That said, i can understand if you go a very large engagement you cannot be arsed, like you said if multiply dreads focus fire what is the point. But damn you make it sound far too black and white. it is not stupid at all, us using faction gear on our capitals won us many battles. it is often descrived as the deciding factor in the last 9-9 capital battle we won. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.06.12 15:23:00 - [58] Just because some people would not risk implants with their dread does not mean that's a good justification for shield tankers to not even have the option. Some people feel that attribute enhancer implants in 0.0 is pointless because of the frequency of ship loss. One of my corpmates flys with +3 all the time because he can afford to replace them and feels the bonus from them is worth it. He appreciates that he has the ability to do this if he chooses, more opportunities are a good thing. I'm sure there are plenty of shield tanking cap pilots that would like the option of an extra 30-40% hp no matter what the cost. If the logic is that anytime you might need more hp, your probably going to die anyway, why introduce t2 tanking gear at all?

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