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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:06:00 -
[1]
The shield tanking dreads in a capital fleet must have a huge penalty since Slave implant works for armour tanking capitals therefor giving them around 38% more armour dont recall the numbers correctly, while the crystal implants does not work. So does this mean that a capital fleet mainly having armour tankers in it will have around 30 - 40 % more hitpoints then one with more shield tanking Dread's `?!?!?!
A nerf or change is long over due if this is so.
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:21:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 13:19:25
Err.
You can count on fingers how many people use their slave sets in a fleet battle, it's not like they're cheap.
Crystal sets have huge advantage for activetanking, slave sets have an advantage because they can be used on capitals.
I don't see the problem here, it's like missiles and turrets, they work differently...
Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool |
Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:26:00 -
[3]
well with the new 700 cap on systems now not much support will be able to get in so why not use youre slave set when there like no chance of loosing youre POD and why the hell would you target a pod in a capital fleet battle ?
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:30:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Deja Nay
well with the new 700 cap on systems now not much support will be able to get in so why not use youre slave set when there like no chance of loosing youre POD and why the hell would you target a pod in a capital fleet battle ?
I wonder if we're playing the same game or not.
There has not been a single fight with 700 capitals involved, maybe 100-200 capitals or so, rest is always support.
Also, it's called LAG and SMARTBOMBS, putting 2bil isk+ pirate implant set on the line for lag when it's quite certain you will get bubbled up with a dictor... well.. i'd say you'd have to have a bottomless supply of isk for that.
I wonder if you have ever been in what one calls a fleet battle... Your perceptions of a fleet battles and capital engagements are very far detatched from what is going on @ tranquility right now. At least that's the impression I get from what you are saying :)
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Royaldo
KVA Noble Inc.
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:36:00 -
[5]
i think hes on about a cap limit on how many are allowed into 1 system. but im not sure.
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:37:00 -
[6]
i did not say in any way anything about 700 capital ships my point was that if for example the coallitions 200 dreads and bobs 150 dread faced eachother just to mention someone, there would only be able to be 350 support in the system just as the situation was when The coalition went in to kill the capital ship yard for BOB.
or am i wrong ?
and yes i have been in such figths =)
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ryysa
Originally by: Deja Nay
well with the new 700 cap on systems now not much support will be able to get in so why not use youre slave set when there like no chance of loosing youre POD and why the hell would you target a pod in a capital fleet battle ?
I wonder if we're playing the same game or not.
There has not been a single fight with 700 capitals involved, maybe 100-200 capitals or so, rest is always support.
Also, it's called LAG and SMARTBOMBS, putting 2bil isk+ pirate implant set on the line for lag when it's quite certain you will get bubbled up with a dictor... well.. i'd say you'd have to have a bottomless supply of isk for that.
I wonder if you have ever been in what one calls a fleet battle... Your perceptions of a fleet battles and capital engagements are very far detatched from what is going on @ tranquility right now. At least that's the impression I get from what you are saying :)
and for example when ratting in drone regions you used to earn 2,5 bill aday from the minerals u took into empire and sold now u earn about 500 mill per day of ratting, you dont really need a bottomless bag for that :)
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:43:00 -
[8]
on the other hand i guess you can call it a pyrrhus victory but if you do have 30 - 40% more Hitpoints and destroyes youre enemys capital fleet you can advance into theyre territory without much resistance for atleast a short time and put as many posses as possible in reinforced before they are able to since it does cost quite alot of money for them to put up another capital fleet.
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Royaldo
KVA Noble Inc.
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:51:00 -
[9]
1.no you havent been in such fights
2.2.5b isk a day?? where are you taking this number from? your own database?
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Royaldo
1.no you havent been in such fights
2.2.5b isk a day?? where are you taking this number from? your own database?
The cost of a HG slave set?
sgb
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Royaldo
KVA Noble Inc.
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Royaldo
1.no you havent been in such fights
2.2.5b isk a day?? where are you taking this number from? your own database?
The cost of a HG slave set?
sgb
yeah so all and everyone earned 2,5b isk a day in the new regions?
got some numbers to back this up?
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Tisanta
Amarr
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.05.16 13:59:00 -
[12]
ok so for shield tankers use the shield boost implants?? no problem...waste of a thread
and that 40% health will make no difference, it is like fitting a tank in a bs fleet...no matter what if u are primary you are going to die.
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 14:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Royaldo
1.no you havent been in such fights
2.2.5b isk a day?? where are you taking this number from? your own database?
Clearly you were not in the drone regions when the zydrine price was at 4500 and the other prices were high when we first got there.
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 14:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Deja Nay on 16/05/2007 14:00:50
Originally by: Tisanta
ok so for shield tankers use the shield boost implants?? no problem...waste of a thread
and that 40% health will make no difference, it is like fitting a tank in a bs fleet...no matter what if u are primary you are going to die.
the point is that Shield boost implants does not work on capitals but armour one does.
Point is also that we are not talking small numbers here we are talking 30 - 40% more hitpoints on a capital fleet that could have major role on the outcome of a region
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.16 14:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tisanta
and that 40% health will make no difference, it is like fitting a tank in a bs fleet...no matter what if u are primary you are going to die.
If your fleet has consistently 40% more hitpoints, they will last that much longer. They will deal damage that much longer. In the end it will show in both kills and losses, other factors excluded.
How much more damage will a T2 gun deal over a T1? 40%? Just pulling it out of my ass, but if you've ever seen fights between fleets with mostly T1 and mostly T2 fight, you'd know that it makes a big difference.
For capital ships the advantage is even better. The time it takes to take down extra armor gives the pilot extra cycles of repairing (both self and remote), more time to unlag, align and warp. And like I said above, that in turn gives you more time to shoot at your enemies, kill them faster and take damage that would be dealt to the secondary target (after you).
So yeah, it is a considerable advantage. Of course it's risky like everything else. Taking that risk is very much up to individual pilots, but that's irrelevant here: armor tankers have the option, shield tankers don't. When you take two imaginary ships pimped to the max, the one armor tanking can further improve theirs with slaves while the shield tanker can't.
This unfair inconsistency is not anything new, however. The issue has been brought up several times since capital ships were first introduced, but thus far the only official answer I remember is something along the lines of boost amount being too good to work on capitals, which I somewhat agree on. I would suggest changing the crystal set bonus to shield hitpoints with an appropriate increase in shield recharge time (so that the recharge rate remains the same, that is). I can only hope that this time they will both notice and take it seriously.
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Tisanta
and that 40% health will make no difference, it is like fitting a tank in a bs fleet...no matter what if u are primary you are going to die.
If your fleet has consistently 40% more hitpoints, they will last that much longer. They will deal damage that much longer. In the end it will show in both kills and losses, other factors excluded.
How much more damage will a T2 gun deal over a T1? 40%? Just pulling it out of my ass, but if you've ever seen fights between fleets with mostly T1 and mostly T2 fight, you'd know that it makes a big difference.
For capital ships the advantage is even better. The time it takes to take down extra armor gives the pilot extra cycles of repairing (both self and remote), more time to unlag, align and warp. And like I said above, that in turn gives you more time to shoot at your enemies, kill them faster and take damage that would be dealt to the secondary target (after you).
So yeah, it is a considerable advantage. Of course it's risky like everything else. Taking that risk is very much up to individual pilots, but that's irrelevant here: armor tankers have the option, shield tankers don't. When you take two imaginary ships pimped to the max, the one armor tanking can further improve theirs with slaves while the shield tanker can't.
This unfair inconsistency is not anything new, however. The issue has been brought up several times since capital ships were first introduced, but thus far the only official answer I remember is something along the lines of boost amount being too good to work on capitals, which I somewhat agree on. I would suggest changing the crystal set bonus to shield hitpoints with an appropriate increase in shield recharge time (so that the recharge rate remains the same, that is). I can only hope that this time they will both notice and take it seriously.
Could not have said it better myself, this is exsactly my point.
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:11:00 -
[17]
also from what i remember they talked about doing just that to convert crystal to HP but then the drake would become impossible to kill .... THE DRAKE ?!?!?!?!?! we are talking capitals here ffs.
However since they are now nerfing the drake please give us poor shield tankers the love we deserve !
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smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Deja Nay
also from what i remember they talked about doing just that to convert crystal to HP but then the drake would become impossible to kill .... THE DRAKE ?!?!?!?!?! we are talking capitals here ffs.
However since they are now nerfing the drake please give us poor shield tankers the love we deserve !
Wouldn't make any difference if the shield recharge rate was increased at the same time as HP.
sgb
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jin Entres
This unfair inconsistency is not anything new, however. The issue has been brought up several times since capital ships were first introduced, but thus far the only official answer I remember is something along the lines of boost amount being too good to work on capitals, which I somewhat agree on. I would suggest changing the crystal set bonus to shield hitpoints with an appropriate increase in shield recharge time (so that the recharge rate remains the same, that is). I can only hope that this time they will both notice and take it seriously.
Crystals were originally shield hitpoints, but didnt give the appropriate increase in shield recharge time.
It was really overpowered.
However, it the recharge time increase was commensurate, it certianly would not be, and would be a good solution to the "Zomg faction XL shield booster + Crystal set tanks 4500 DPS" problem as well as the "Zomg, 40,000 HP drake, i dare you to attack me" problem, as well as alieviating part of the "Mien Capital Shield tanks, they sucketh!" problem
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Tisanta
and that 40% health will make no difference, it is like fitting a tank in a bs fleet...no matter what if u are primary you are going to die.
If your fleet has consistently 40% more hitpoints, they will last that much longer. They will deal damage that much longer. In the end it will show in both kills and losses, other factors excluded.
How much more damage will a T2 gun deal over a T1? 40%? Just pulling it out of my ass, but if you've ever seen fights between fleets with mostly T1 and mostly T2 fight, you'd know that it makes a big difference.
For capital ships the advantage is even better. The time it takes to take down extra armor gives the pilot extra cycles of repairing (both self and remote), more time to unlag, align and warp. And like I said above, that in turn gives you more time to shoot at your enemies, kill them faster and take damage that would be dealt to the secondary target (after you).
So yeah, it is a considerable advantage. Of course it's risky like everything else. Taking that risk is very much up to individual pilots, but that's irrelevant here: armor tankers have the option, shield tankers don't. When you take two imaginary ships pimped to the max, the one armor tanking can further improve theirs with slaves while the shield tanker can't.
This unfair inconsistency is not anything new, however. The issue has been brought up several times since capital ships were first introduced, but thus far the only official answer I remember is something along the lines of boost amount being too good to work on capitals, which I somewhat agree on. I would suggest changing the crystal set bonus to shield hitpoints with an appropriate increase in shield recharge time (so that the recharge rate remains the same, that is). I can only hope that this time they will both notice and take it seriously.
wait i get it :) this is a joke right?
a 200+ man dread fleet all flying with high grade snake implants
p.s. if you find such a fleet send in a 200+ strong fleet of frigs and crusiers bump one ship at a time so it can't warp away and laugh as each dread is slowly ripped apart by a swarm of frigs.... oh and have them all with high grade snake implants so that even when the dreads do lock they are going soo fast that they can't be hit :D
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Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Deja Nay
The shield tanking dreads in a capital fleet must have a huge penalty since Slave implant works for armour tanking capitals therefor giving them around 38% more armour dont recall the numbers correctly, while the crystal implants does not work. So does this mean that a capital fleet mainly having armour tankers in it will have around 30 - 40 % more hitpoints then one with more shield tanking Dread's `?!?!?!
A nerf or change is long over due if this is so.
You're making a mistake here. You're implying that armor tankers only have armor HP and sheild tankers have sheild HP and in a fleet battle this is far from the truth. Provided you have cap you can run a sheild booster the whole time you're dying, if you run an armor tank, you can only run it after you're out of sheilds.
Now, say a pheonix has 30% of it's HP in armor and a revelation has 40% of it's HP in armor. And the implants give 40% to armor. The revelation can get 16% more hp and the pheonix can get 12% more hp.
Not that big a deal. A much bigger imbalance is the pheonix's slow torps make it unaffective at focus firing since the targets will often be dead before missiles arrive.
-Bart
CCP: please fix the asteroids in the new regions.
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:33:00 -
[22]
Well, I still fail to see the point, why does everything have to be uniform etc?
Crystal set is better on normal ships, slave set better on capital ships... well "better" is perhaps the wrong word...
Btw, 350 support is more than enough to bubble your pod. Also, err... instead of wasting 2.5b on slave set, i'd rather have two dreads.
So in essence you take cost vs performance.
I am quite sure that 2 dreads perform better than 1 dread with slave set, or do you disagree?
The balancing factor is the extreme price point and lag. Once there is no lag whatsoever you can argue about it, however most likely when you die in a dread you're being blobbed pretty hard and bubbled to hell, so your pod will die anyway.
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.16 16:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gawain Hill
wait i get it :) this is a joke right?
a 200+ man dread fleet all flying with high grade snake implants
p.s. if you find such a fleet send in a 200+ strong fleet of frigs and crusiers bump one ship at a time so it can't warp away and laugh as each dread is slowly ripped apart by a swarm of frigs.... oh and have them all with high grade snake implants so that even when the dreads do lock they are going soo fast that they can't be hit :D
And where again did I mention snakes?
Wait, I get it -- this is a joke, right?
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Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 17:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ryysa
Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 16:38:19
Well, I still fail to see the point, why does everything have to be uniform etc?
Crystal set is better on normal ships, slave set better on capital ships... well "better" is perhaps the wrong word...
Btw, 350 support is more than enough to bubble your pod. Also, err... instead of wasting 2.5b on slave set, i'd rather have two dreads.
So in essence you take cost vs performance.
I am quite sure that 2 dreads perform better than 1 dread with slave set, or do you disagree?
The balancing factor is the extreme price point and lag. Once there is no lag whatsoever you can argue about it, however most likely when you die in a dread you're being blobbed pretty hard and bubbled to hell, so your pod will die anyway.
Also, again as equalizer.
Since crystals are much better than slaves on anything but capital ships, it's only fair that slaves get an equalizer by working on capital ships.
You can't view this from a capital ship balance standpoint, since it's the minority of people who will have these implants.
You need to view the balance between two sets, atm both have features that make them attractive.
Now, if crystal set also suddenly works on capitals, then slave set better lose 2x of it's price.
Quite alot of the smart 03 players have during theyre years aquired atleast 1 T2 BPO which have given them quite the lot of cash so never ever have to care about it ever again, atleast if we are talking about the hardcore players. Just because Crystal might be better for hacs and commandships or whatever ship that has nothing todo with Shooting down POS's and taking other peoples space, does not justify that only armour tanking capital pilots should benefit from implants such as Slave.
Its obvious that even in a smaller fight like 10 versus 10 dreads 40% or even 30% hitpoints will make you win alot easier.
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Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Shinra
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Posted - 2007.05.16 17:20:00 -
[25]
So, durr die durr.. Let's nerf Crystal sets for < Capital and boost Slaves for < Capitals. Then you can figure out a way for Crystal sets to be usefull on Capitals.
Alternatively, just accept that not everything is or has to be equal.
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Damares
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.05.16 17:43:00 -
[26]
i really dont know any one who uses either of those sets in a fleet battle, seriously, too laggy to have any chance fo defending them, you warp in, a minute later your overview might update, you try to lock a target and that takes a few minutes, you then activate modules, that takes some minutes also, you then usualy die, then its around 5 minutes till your ship explodes, then it takes about 2 or 3 minutes for your pod to warp, by then, you'd probably have been smart bombed or killed in some other manner
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Trisha Banks
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2007.05.16 19:29:00 -
[27]
With price comes performance. With top price comes top performance. If you have the isk sources fly what you like.
Honestly, we are talking about some of the most expensive ships in game, and the majority of the replies are "I'm too poor." Unfortunatly the fact that you dont have isk and consider 2.5B to be XX many days of continuous ratting, doesn't mean everyone else has such a problem to find isk.
To the OP: it is unfortunate that you cant pimp a caldari capital to the extent of others. I would go with increasing shield ammount, and shield recharge, netting the same shield/s as pre-crystal passivly.
This has been discussed many times though . . . perhaps the devs are happy with it for other reasons.
trisha
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invaderzim
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.16 20:05:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Deja Nay
Originally by: Royaldo
1.no you havent been in such fights
2.2.5b isk a day?? where are you taking this number from? your own database?
Clearly you were not in the drone regions when the zydrine price was at 4500 and the other prices were high when we first got there.
When I was last in drone space, the bs drones dropped between 16 and 50 plush. Among other things, plush refines to 18 zy per unit w/ perfect skills and at the time was the most profitable of the drone alloys. Assuming you only engaged bs spawns, there was always one available, each had an average of 34 units of plush per can and you consider a "day of ratting" to be a 23h stint...
18(34)4500= 2754000 per bs/can thus you'd need to kill 907 bs's to meet your 2.5b quota in plush alone. keeping in mind that trit/pye had not spiked at that point and morphite/mega had not yet been affected, I assume the other alloys would refine to give you an additional 3rd. Which is what I seem to remember. So lets say you only have to kill 600 bs's or so in the 23h. It seems like a lot to me, but it's possible.
I'd appreciate it if someone would confirm my "math" btw. I'm happy to be wrong and the above doesnt factor in salvage, which you'll remember was pre-nerfed at the onset.
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"Oh, he's very popular Ed. The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, ****s, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, ****heads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude." |
Deja Nay
Fist of the Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.16 20:08:00 -
[29]
But this is not only about the 2,5Billion set even if you use the lowgrade slave you get a 20 - 30% boost which is still alot and you can afford it for 1,2B i mean seriously ?
if you can afford a Dread for 2 billion Fit it for another 500 million you sure as hell can afford 1,2 bill
but to trisha i guess theres not much to be done but to be honest it seems like it is this way just because CCP is to lazy to fix it its obvious it could be done if they fix the shield recharge thing along with changing the implant.
i guess they are have to much work being done on theyre new MMORPG which im also looking forward to :D
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.16 20:26:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 16/05/2007 20:25:35
I dont think CCP are too lazy to fix it - If crystals implants change even a fraction from what they are currently, then one can only imagine the sheer ferocity that the mission runners of eve will bring. In fact, crystal implants were changed to shield HP on test server 6-9 moths ago IIRC, and they mission runners came out in force reversing such a change!
But I can see why. Someone who invested a couple bil into crystal implants purely for boost bonus will not want his investment wasted. People who acquire these implants would find their income drop drasticly if it was changed as well. And Mission runners outnumber the amount of shield tanking capital pilots, therefore I forsee no change anytime soon.
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Billion Isk Mission |
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