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tropic82
Gallente
Hoth Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:15:00 -
[1]
I undocked from a station in Jita in my freighter and was being blocked by a can. I opened the can and tried to take the 1 unit of ammo and put it in my freighter cargo. A message poped up saying I cant loot cans with my freighter only freighter wrecks or somthing like that. I spend the next 10 mins trying to go around the can and finally warp to the gate and put on my auto pilot.
At the gate a intercepter locks me and starts to fire on me. I figure he wants to get concorded for some reason. I had no globle flag or anything.Well a few mins go by and im starting to worry Concord isnt comming.
I quickly open a petition to CCP saying im not at war and I am going to loos my freighter in jita from a friget. By this time my freighter is into structure.Ccp gets back to me and says that I tried to steal from a can and thats why I was flaged to the other player and yes he can kill me.
Holy crap batman, I Tried to steal. You cant steal from a can in a freighter because you cant take from a can in a freighter. Cant take Cant Steal. Unless ccp changed the flaging system this is a bug and should be fixed. Not to mention i never got a global countdown for trying to steal.Trying to steal, Good god
I almost lost 2 billion today because of a bug and when I petitioned it I was told it was not a bug.Well im just woundering if this sort of stuff has happen to anyone else
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Cranewhite Lighting
The Littlest Hobos
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:20:00 -
[2]
You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
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ToxicFire
Phoenix Knights
Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:21:00 -
[3]
Tbh its not a bug but it is bad coding, the sequence of actions is rather incorrect, the warning about looting from a can and thus the steal trigger is before that of the you can't loot with freighters warning. So you attempt to steal from a can, accept the consequences (which flags you) but then the check if your a freighter comes into play which stops you from actually transfer anything but the stealing flag remains.
Tbh the order just needs changing.
Also a guy dropping a can outside of a station like that to obstruct exit is exploiting and carries a ban if I rember rightly so petition the guy get him banned.
Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:23:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Cranewhite Lighting
You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
What he is saying is that he tried to steal, however it would not let him pick up the item, as the freightor can only steal from wrecks etc.
In other words, the can with 1 ammo is still there, never stolen. Yet get got a theft flagging.
Either way, attempted theft vs actual theft. I guess you did try to steal so you deserve the flag, but something to watch out for in the future.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:24:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cranewhite Lighting
You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
But the ammo never left the can.
Its obviously a bug.
--23 Member--
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! |
tropic82
Gallente
Hoth Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:26:00 -
[6]
My point is that if you open a miners can and look at his stuff you can even move it in his can it isnt stealing till its in your posession meaning your can or your hanger. i was unable to do either of those things. I never got a global countdown and never got a criminal warning. Only a machanical warning about freighters not being able to loot cans
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tropic82
Gallente
Hoth Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:29:00 -
[7]
If CCP wants to change the flaging system to, looking into cans thats fine im sure it would make for alot more action. But thats not the way our current flaging system works.
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Zirth
Caldari
Dragonian Freelancers
CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:29:00 -
[8]
Don't you get flagged for 'trying to steal', regardless of wether you actually succeed?
If so, then technically it's okay. But gameplay wise this is ridiculous and should be taken care of. Though I gotto say, even attempting to steal a unit of ammo from a can in a freighter is just looking for trouble. It doesn't really happen often anyway, so I'd say, it's pretty low priority.
Should be 'fixed' either way.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:30:00 -
[9]
But...basicly you DID steal, just couldn't.
It's surely a bug that you didn't recieve a flag or something, but you did try to steal. So if you had been let to take the 1 ammo, the same thing would have happened...no?
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: tropic82
I never got a global countdown and never got a criminal warning.
Hearing this is not a bug is like crawling into hospital with a bone sticking out of your leg only to have a doctor tell you it is not broken.
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Sexy Schoolgirl
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:31:00 -
[11]
He wasn't flagged... no aggro timer either... item never left can. Bad coding, bad bug. No other excuse from CCP, and that GM prolly didn't look into it much.
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Caol
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: tropic82
I undocked from a station in Jita in my freighter and was being blocked by a can. I opened the can and tried to take the 1 unit of ammo and put it in my freighter cargo. A message poped up saying I cant loot cans with my freighter only freighter wrecks or somthing like that. I spend the next 10 mins trying to go around the can and finally warp to the gate and put on my auto pilot.
I was moving some stuff on an alt last night, on some stations a well place can make it alost impossible to slide out. If your tired its oh so tempting to just take a look inside it to pop it. You then get flagged and all your loot/cargo belong to someone else.
Deffo something to bear in mind.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:45:00 -
[13]
I see this crap pulled all the time in the newbie systems.
You see one or more jetcans floating right at the mouth of the undock zone, and the poor newbie ships bouncing off the jetcans like ping-pong balls. I make a point of going to newbie systems in my Assault Cruiser and emptying the jetcans. Yes, I get an aggro timer, but I know that the newbie gankers aren't there in battleships. Often I'll just see a rifter or a merlin hanging out around the entrance with no other obvious reason for being there. Almost every time when I pop the can it's some T1 frigate lighting up red. Yet I never hear of a GM coming down on these guys. Especially since they are hurting the most important members of the EVE community, the new players.
C-mon GMs! We need to lock newbie systems to non-faction players (no minmatar, caldari or amar players in Gallente newbie zones, etc.) and to players above a certain age and/or skill point level. There's no reason why newbies should EVER get ganked by higher players when they undock for the first time!
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tropic82
Gallente
Hoth Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:54:00 -
[14]
The guy who attacked me was pretty good about it he convoed me when i warped off. I explained what happen and he told me that wasnt right and that he was gunna send a petition into ccp about the flaging bug.
I know evreyone has personal feelings about stealing and baiting but the facts remaine that CCP doeasnt think it is a bug so what do we do as a community do. Do we ask that it be fixed or just make up the rules as we go along
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Ling Xiao
Prism Project Technologies
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Posted - 2007.05.17 15:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
I see this crap pulled all the time in the newbie systems.
You see one or more jetcans floating right at the mouth of the undock zone, and the poor newbie ships bouncing off the jetcans like ping-pong balls. I make a point of going to newbie systems in my Assault Cruiser and emptying the jetcans. Yes, I get an aggro timer, but I know that the newbie gankers aren't there in battleships. Often I'll just see a rifter or a merlin hanging out around the entrance with no other obvious reason for being there. Almost every time when I pop the can it's some T1 frigate lighting up red. Yet I never hear of a GM coming down on these guys. Especially since they are hurting the most important members of the EVE community, the new players.
C-mon GMs! We need to lock newbie systems to non-faction players (no minmatar, caldari or amar players in Gallente newbie zones, etc.) and to players above a certain age and/or skill point level. There's no reason why newbies should EVER get ganked by higher players when they undock for the first time!
Hell no, newbies can read the warning message just like anyone else. And if they make the mistake of ignoring it, what do they lose? Nothing. That's the best time to make these mistakes, when they are costing you 500isk and not 500million isk. What better way to teach them that their actions can have consequences? 
__________
If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
turnschuh
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:01:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Cranewhite Lighting
You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
But the ammo never left the can.
Its obviously a bug.
well... its probably coded that whay that if you take something fromt he can and try to put it elsewhere u get flagged, no matter if it actually will land in the desired location or not. As soon as you TRY to steal something you get flagged and thats fine, especally when you click yes on the upcomming dialog.
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Alton Nailo
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:12:00 -
[17]
I lost interest in reading this but the way i see it is the canister shouldn't have been in front of the station to begin with it was poorly placed and it was a glitch you should only be flagged for stealing if you actually take the merchandise
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Kaeana
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Cranewhite Lighting
You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
But the ammo never left the can.
Its obviously a bug.
Mmm I've had a similar experience. I tested it in a newbie frigate, i daren't risk a real ship.
If you have no ammo in your guns (and I assume no cap to fire a laser), but press the "fire" button, you will get concorded in high sec, even though no ammo / laser left your gun.
After I petitioned the loss of my Ibis and demanded a new replacement  I was told it wasn't a bug, it was because I had the intention of doing it. 
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Ralara
Caldari
Exanimo Inc
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kaeana
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Cranewhite Lighting
You did click yes to that big warning sign.
Think about it this way, would it be stealing if I take your wallet while you were out and later mail it back to you with everything still in it?
But the ammo never left the can.
Its obviously a bug.
Mmm I've had a similar experience. I tested it in a newbie frigate, i daren't risk a real ship.
If you have no ammo in your guns (and I assume no cap to fire a laser), but press the "fire" button, you will get concorded in high sec, even though no ammo / laser left your gun.
After I petitioned the loss of my Ibis and demanded a new replacement I was told it wasn't a bug, it was because I had the intention of doing it.
Would you PLEASE get back in your box and stop stealing my posts. Bad alt. Very bad alt.
Real men CORPSE-TANK. |
Alton Nailo
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:30:00 -
[20]
I DONT LIKE MY BOX... its cold and dark in there... and it smells like mold
*clings to you* PLEASE DONT MAKE ME GO BACK THERE
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Aleranie
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:52:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Aleranie on 17/05/2007 16:51:49
Quote:
I undocked from a station in Jita in my freighter and was being blocked by a can
Fairly sure thats ban-able anyways. Using cans to block undock routes/create lag is a fairly big no-no, isn't it?
"The guy who attacked me was pretty good about it he convoed me when i warped off."
That sounds like BS too. I think he was hoping to spam-convo you to keep you from successfully warping.
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.17 16:54:00 -
[22]
The trying to steal the item asside...
What worries me here is that according to the OP he did not get a flag warning telling him he was free game to be attacked without concord assisting.
My opinion is that if you cant loot from a can then you should not be able to open the can but that is besides the point.
The short of it is that the pirate got info that it was ok to engage the OP without the OP getting a warning that he is now a target, that is bad.
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Crimson Cerebus
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Posted - 2007.05.17 17:01:00 -
[23]
Actually it is against the rules to use a can to block undocking ships. Petition it under that if you see it again.
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Spurty
Caldari
Citadel of dark arts
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.05.17 17:09:00 -
[24]
Wow thats a SERIOUS bug and the consequences are the most extreme you can get really!
If what you say is true then:
Whoever you reported this to in CCP obviously doesn't understand the legal system! That person needs to be sent back for some lessons or something. Makes sure thats clear.
Definitely bring these events to the attention of an attentive developer!
points being:
- Aggressor should ALWAYS be aware there is an aggression countdown on them
- Aggression countdown must only be triggered if you move the stuff from container to your cargo bay. There is no intention in moving stuff about (consider yourself a thief when you go shopping and hunt for a piece of meat you like?)
- People dropping cans so close to station exits that they block people undocking is an exploit
People who drop cans 2k from exits to uncloak ships is fine though, just not more than 1 ;-)
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.17 17:11:00 -
[25]
He did get a notification, he chose to ignore it. He had every intention of taking whatever was in the can, but was physically unable to.
Really though, he is only guilty of "Breaking and Entering", and "Intent to Steal" rather than theft itself.
This does raise an interesting point that Empire dwellers might agree with. If you can be criminally flagged for taking a look to see if you want to take what is in a can, shouldn't you be criminally flagged the same way if you use a cargo or ship scanner to check out someone else's ship?
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Adaris
Dark and Light inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.17 17:17:00 -
[26]
First of all I would have asked the owner of the can (since he was in local) to remove it, or asked someone to blow it up for me. I am conscious I am in a ships worth a bil so I don't take risks I can't avoid.
Secondly, the system of agro timers and global criminal timers is flawed in some areas. There have been posts about these issues so I won't re-hash them here. But basically my opinion is this, you looked in the can, then tried to move the item into your hold. This is stealing. You could not take the item though after you effectively told concord you were going to take it (little warning box giving you the option to stop and do nothing) because the ship you are in could not take the item.
As a comparrison: I leave my house in the morning. Outside my house you have parked your car. Your door is open, keys in the ignition. Because you are blocking my from walking a straight line out onto the street, I decide to open the door of your car and get inside it. (You looking in the can). Now I know this isn't my car. I have no right to be inside it or even contemplate moving it (you - destroying can/taking item) but because it is causing me distress I decide to flip the ignition and drive the car out of the way of my house. (so I knew it was wrong. Accepted the risk and did it. Sound like you?) BUT then after I flipped the ignition and put the car in gear and put my foot to the peddle I realised I could not do it. I wasn't wearing any shoes and so could not keep my foot on the peddle properly for some reason. (This is your freighter not being able to loot cans), so I can't drive your car out of my way after all, and It would seem It was all for nothing.
So I get out of the car, and close the door, walk around the car and out onto the street. Just as I near the other side of the road, which is were I wish to go, I see you, the owner of the car begin to throw stones at me. The stones hurt. (you taking damage). I begin to cry and panic at this. (You freaking out and petitioning the gm) However I claim I didn't steal his car like he is saying (rights on you). He hits me in the face with a stone I cringe (you in structure) and I die/jump out. lol (Don't know if you survived, I think you did.)
So the moral of that comparrison was: you opened that can, proceeded with the action of removing his stuff into your hold and your defence is that you were not stealing. Regardless of the limitations of your ship/my foot with no shoes, you stole or 'intended to steal'.
My verdict: GUILTY
its sad you almost lost your ship, but you need to be more careful and aware of the dangers when flying monehy like that. I mean you don't fit a titan with a civi shield booster do you? Thats careless for the money you are flying.
My Advice: Think before you do when flying money. You could have framed another sucker to pop it for you, asked the owner to pop it, ask your corp if you could take it with you being in Freighter, consult Jita Local, pray, or shake you magic 8 ball for an answer. You didn't do any of this so my pitty is limited, but thats my opinion and nothing for you to worry about or refute honestly. I don't know you as a person so this isn't personal, but i think what you did was stupid.
kk enough of that. Listen mate best of luck in the future and I hope you keep what happened to you in mind for the next time. Fly Safe and remember NEVER Autopilot.
* * *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euZ0j7vtKEQ
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Alora Venoda
Caldari
GalTech
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Posted - 2007.05.17 17:48:00 -
[27]
i am pretty sure it is officially "stealing" to just move items around or split stacks etc, without actually taking anything. the only actual bug you experienced was that you didn't see an aggro timer.
this raises an interesting point though. if i am in a POD, can i move items around or between cans? if i am flagged for stealing and flying in a POD (before or after the crime), does that mean the owner can PODKILL me? i would hope so. blinky-red is blinky-red, after all.
what makes this questionable is the fact that empire laws do not sanction podding, not by CONCORD or anyone... only if at war is it okay. if someone steals from you, you can blow up their ship, but not podkill them. so what if I steal and get flagged, can I fly around in a POD to avoid being attacked?
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Adaris
Dark and Light inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.17 17:56:00 -
[28]
well you can't steal in pods. Moving items around in a can is not stealing as it doesn't leave the possesion of the owner. Pods do not have cargo bays so you can't drag it into yours.
* * *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euZ0j7vtKEQ
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Alora Venoda
Caldari
GalTech
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Adaris
well you can't steal in pods. Moving items around in a can is not stealing as it doesn't leave the possesion of the owner. Pods do not have cargo bays so you can't drag it into yours.
what about moving items from can A to can B?
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.17 18:11:00 -
[30]
It is basically just another scam or a setup.
I have seen several of these cans in the last few weeks.
No different then pirates doing a can swap on miners or anything else.
Just another twist on the same old thing.
The object is to get someone flagged.
Use a exit SS and the cans are worthless.
Or have a friend remove it.
Or remove it yourself in a shuttle and let the counter time and and continue as normal.
All I can say is welcome to high-sec piracy.
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